Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Do you always enunciate TH?

This is topic Do you always enunciate TH? in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-25-2003, 01:26 AM:

Being a foreigner, and one of those who can actually pronounce the TH, there is one detail which eludes me still: do you always enunciate the THE even after an S sound? For instance in "what`s that", or "is that" etc. I listen to native English speakers carefully, but sometimes I can`t tell if the majority actually enunciates the TH in those situations or if they sometimes contract to "whatszat" or "izzat".

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 11-25-2003, 01:34 AM:

I would say that when native speakers are speaking quickly and casually, we tend to run those sounds together just as you describe. Occasionally we may slow down and clearly enunciate those phonemes, especially during public speaking or when wanting to emphasize something.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-25-2003, 01:46 AM:

Yes, I do. It is not difficult. I have not heard anyone do it otherwise. Just be careful when you are pronouncing the name "Thomas" though. If you pronounce it incorrectly, it is considered an insult to the person and his heritage. I will not give you the correct pronunciation because that wouldn't be any fun for me. Plus, you know the English language better than any of us natives, remember? [Smile]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-25-2003, 01:46 AM:

Pretty much the same holds true here, too. Almost any kind of formal speech (e.g. a BBC newsreader) will pronounce the 'th', but in a more informal setting it depends largely on which regional accent (and to a lesser extent dialect) you're hearing. As a rough-and-ready general rule I'd say that the accents you hear along the east side of England tend to conflate 'th' to 't' (e.g. London, Norfolk, East/North Yorkshire and Geordie/Northumberland) whereas those in the West (Somerset/Devon/Cornwall, English spoken with a Welsh accent, West Midlands, South/West Yorkshire, Cumbria) tend to emphasise phonemes and pronounce the 'th'.

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 11-25-2003, 02:14 AM:

The beeb newsreader pronunciation equivalent in the US is the sort of standardization by shakeout in the early days of radio that broadcast pronunciation would be based on midwestern accents (minus chicaguh and minnusuhtuh-type drops & some nasalities). TH's are pronounced. Be careful, or you find that affected, unnatural speech of B-team & lower broadcasters who "overpronounce" words.

I can't help but visualize Michael in Emil Jannings' classroom in Der Blaue Engel, getting the TH lesson.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-25-2003, 02:22 AM:

Where's Ethan when you need him? He can show you TRUE English. Ain't dat rite Ethan?

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 11-25-2003, 08:02 PM:

LOL Joe [Smile]

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 11-26-2003, 04:07 PM:

Many Americans slaughter the English language. Only the British speak English anyway. The American we speak in this country has no class and many seem to delight in creating new words so they may be identified with their peer group and understood only by them. I thoroughly enjoy listening to an educated Englishman speak his language and many British actors would fall into this catagory for me. You are correct about what some Americans do with our language. But hang in there. Someday you may run into an American who speaks our language correctly.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 11-26-2003, 04:24 PM:

the exported british english that americans hear spoken by stage actors and such is hardly representative of the variation in dialect seen there. you can get a flavor of this by watching a mike leigh or ken loach film. any native-speaking american can probably pretty much understand any other american, but try listening to some british regional dialects and you'll think it's a foreign language. the language has had a lot more time to diverge there, despite the smaller area. as for creating new words, have you heard cockney slang?

carl

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-27-2003, 01:51 AM:

Is the urban legend I heard correct, namely that My Name is Joe had to be subtitled for release in the US because preview audiences struggled with the Glaswegian accent and dialect?

Agreed entirely about variations in accent and dialect - compare, say, the dialogue in Chicken Run (Yorkshire), Nil by Mouth (South London), Hidden Agenda (Northern Irish), Veronica Guerin (Southern Irish), Get Carter (North-East English, or 'Geordie' - apart from Michael Caine of course!)... the list is endless. I think it would be fair to say that by listening to a UK English speaker's accent you can, in most cases, get a pretty accurate idea of where (s)he grew up and learnt to speak, to within 100 miles or so.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-27-2003, 01:53 AM:

quote:
You are correct about what some Americans do with our language.

Do you mean me? If so, you have misunderstood my post. Personally, I do not agree with those who see American English as not "proper" English. It was imported from Europe by "original" English speakers and naturally underwent many changes and modifications. But that is the way languages always develop. Languages are not static, they change all the time. Unlike some variations of English, such as Indian English, American English was not forced on its speakers, but basically brought over from Europe and then underwent many modifications which reflect the social and historical conditions of its speakers. Actually, I find those variations very fascinating.
My post was a question to all native English speakers everywhere since this is a detail which I haven`t quite figured out yet. I know "official" English everywhere tries very hard to separate s and th sounds, but I am interested in the authentic spoken language.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 11-27-2003, 03:02 AM:

loach's sixteen and at least one other british film i've seen were subtitled. trainspotting was not, and i for one am glad i saw it in sweden where i could read the titles.

carl

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 11-27-2003, 04:25 AM:

Just don't hit it too hard, & slur it a little.
US Regional speech differences outside of dense urban areas have been diminishing for decades. They're surely not as high-contrast as they usedta be. It's a sort of homogenization due to mass media & the extinction of highly artificial speech like announcer-ese & the contrived "mid-Atlantic" accent often heard in old movies. Oddly, though, as some folks get older, they try to garb themselves in some sort of heritage cred by piling on a sort of caricature of local historic regional accent. Usually teutonic transplants give away more with vowels not being open or nasal enough. "What's thet?" Or sometimes they overshoot: "What's dot?"