quote:

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The occupants were black males and females.

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have no remorse for the dead. I think they deserved every bit of pain they got because they were criminals out joyriding.

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quote:

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Most criminals as teenagers, black or white, usually stay that way as adults from what I've seen over the years.

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That's certainly a broad statement!

If people cannot be rehabilitated, what is the purpose of prison or the judicial system? If "criminals" are incorrigible, should we just execute them all, lest they commit crime again when they get out of prison? Or keep them in prison forever? In this case, should the sentence for joyriding be death (if not accidental, then execution) or life in prison for all seven youngsters, just in case they might steal another car?

IMHO, non-violent (property) crimes should be punished by complete restitution and fines, not prison. In the case of minors, the parents should also be held responsible, including full restitution.

quote:

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The driver was a 15 year old kid.

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quote:

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The occupants were black males and females...

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quote:

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Is this really relevant to the incident?

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quote:

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Regardless of the color of their skin, had they stopped when they were told to, they would all be alive today.

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quote:

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If the officers were Caucasian, someone in the Jackson/Sharpton camp is going to find a way to attempt to shift total blame on the 'evil racist white cops'

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well, I certainly would hope no one would exploit this racially. That's why I'm against pointing out the color of the skin on either side. It's wrong on both sides to do so.
 

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Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 12-31-2003, 02:12 AM:
 
Here in NZ there has been about 8 deaths over the last week or so caused by youth trying to out run the Police , some of the deaths occurred after the car chase was abandoned and the cars crashed anyway ,the problem has started a case for the police to give up the chase if the it goes over 120kph ,well this is going to encourage the chase to go to this speed then the chase has to be stopped at this point ,question is ..... do we suppose that this is going to prevent an accident or leaving them to do as they wish cause a death later in the day ????? most of these chases involved Drink or Drugs , but mostly stolen cars .
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-31-2003, 03:50 AM:
 
Moving to Yak.
 

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Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 12-31-2003, 04:07 AM:
 
There's been a quite a few deaths in vehicle accidents here as well in the past week. Mainly do to the conditions, as I type this it's snowing pretty bad.

The local RCMP media spokesperson is begging with the public to slow down.
 

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Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 12-31-2003, 04:29 AM:
 
I have absolutely no sympathy for these kids, and that they were black has nothing to do with my opinion.

First, had they stopped when confronted by police, they would be alive today.

Second, their actions put the community in danger. What would have happened if they would have injured or killed innocent bystanders?

Third, THEY STOLE THE CAR! What about the inconvience caused to the property owner? How about this scnerio? What if the car owner is a person who is one or two paychecks away from being homeless, and is utterly dependant on that car as a means of earning a paycheck? Do the parents of the perps have insurance, or assests to reimburse the property owner?
 

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Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 12-31-2003, 07:12 AM:
 
Local news said that the car in question had one of those stupid 'doughnut' spare tires on it. Those things should not be used for anything other than getting you to the next exit, or the next gas station to be replaced.

It's a sign of the times. There are alot of people driving around on these spare tires. I also see lots of bald tires. A friend almost died when his tire blew a few weeks ago.

Until I read it here, I never heard anything about the race of the children in the car, and this has been the hot topic on TV for several days.

Look at all the car chase movies out there these days. People seem to think that they are invincible behind the wheel!
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-31-2003, 08:22 AM:
 
I hear the sound of another pellet of clorine dropping into the gene pool!
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-31-2003, 09:07 AM:
 
Movies are to blame for this. If it weren't for movies (and those evil videogames) then everyone who has ever died on this planet would still be alive today.
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-31-2003, 09:24 AM:
 
What Will said plus....
The real tragedy is that the parents have taught their children that the white cops are wrong and their little "apple dumplings" are "righteous and just" in their defiance of the laws and the law enforcement officers. Had those children been taught to be responsible for their actions and respect for the law they would still be alive.
Here in Washington State, in the Seattle Tacoma area, it seems as though every time a "person of color" is killed, (in a confrontation with law enforcement) the race card is thrown. A couple years back a black kid beat a white kid to death at Fat Tuesday. There was a real ruckus by the black community because they claimed the prosecution of that murderer was racially motivated.
Its time to be color blind on both sides.

I also agree that it is absurd to break off a chase because it reaches a certain KPH or MPH. All that tells the offenders is to go like hell and they won't get caught.
 

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Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 12-31-2003, 09:54 AM:
 
I agree that cutting off the chase is a bad idea. Regardless of the risk to anyone, there must be shown that consequences are real and will come to you and possibly others.

I have had it with touchy feely police departments and those that try to control them. They are here to keep the peace. When you give nothing but peace, you destroy any peace you have. There are bad people out there, and will take advantage of touchy feely rules.

These people got thier justice meted out in a very quick way. I hope things like this send messages to others that this behaviour means bad things to you.

Dave
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 12-31-2003, 12:09 PM:
 
Don't the cops have radios? They should not even have to chase the brats. let the radios do the work.
There have been several times in the area where I live, where an inocent person was killed in the process. This is just not worth the chase. Yes, the crooks must be made to pay for their crimes, but no one else should. I'm with John, the crooks should PAY for what they did. I'm tired of my tax dollars being used to keep them in jail.
 

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Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 12-31-2003, 12:59 PM:
 

quote:

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The real tragedy is that the parents have taught their children that the white cops are wrong and their little "apple dumplings" are "righteous and just" in their defiance of the laws and the law enforcement officers. Had those children been taught to be responsible for their actions and respect for the law they would still be alive.

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quote:

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Its time to be color blind on both sides.

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quote:

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Look at all the car chase movies out there these days. People seem to think that they are invincible
behind the wheel!

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And if same people watched all those 'police chase' TV shows and videos (and live TV is some areas), they would learn that you NEVER get away from the cops once they are on to you, (unless you lead them to a place that has no-cops-can-pursue-laws on the books (are you listening, Temecula, CA?!?), then you are almost certain to get away scot-free)

-Aaron
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-31-2003, 01:37 PM:
 
"...What an unbelievable stretch! You are basically accusing these parents of racism (do we KNOW any facts of this parentage?)...."

Percentages? No. A stretch? Not at all

I do watch TV and I do watch the local news. And this is what I see. And you're right when you say it happens to people of all colors. And you are also right when you say the parents are being racist. What else can it be when a parent of one race accuses the police of another race from acting because of race and not because of several broken laws? How can it be anything but racist when the black community in Seattle accuse the prosecuting attorney of racism when he prosecutes a murderer who happens to be black not because he is a murderer (they had it on tape) but because he is black. The race card IS being played to an absurd level. I can't believe anyone can listen to the blather of the Jackson/Sharpton types with hearing racism.
I also agree that race should not have been brought up in the news story. It should be a story about a murderer or a car thief(s) etc. Unfortunately in these cut and dry cases there are attempts to distract attention away from the real issues by putting a racial spin on the story as a defense tactic.
Now I don't know if the pusuing cop could tell what color the offenders were when he gave chase, but I bet he wasn't looking for a car of black kids to chase around. I bet he was looking for a stolen car, saw it, gave chase and the rest is history.
I'm personally getting real tired of people making excuses for their actions based on WHATEVER minority they happen to be. All they are is excuses for poor behavior.
 

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Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 2038) on 12-31-2003, 02:04 PM:
 
My gripe is that no one accepts personal responsibility for his or her actions. If I screw up royally I have no one else to blame and I have to accept what I've done. My fault, no one else's, and I cannot even consider my stupidity is because I am a "victim" of whatever I can blame it on.

I guess I was raised in a different era.
 

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Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 12-31-2003, 05:12 PM:
 
I had to go outside to see if it was snowing...I actually AGREE with something Dave had to say!

quote:

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These people got thier justice meted out in a very quick way. I hope things like this send messages to others that this behaviour means bad things to you.

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IMHO, non-violent (property) crimes should be punished by complete restitution and fines, not prison. In the case of minors, the parents should also be held responsible, including full restitution.

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No Way! I would love to see anyone who has ever broken into a car get a .30 cal round in the head. I would gladly do it myself.
 

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Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 12-31-2003, 05:55 PM:
 
I wondered if anyone would touch on this here...

While I don't think the kids 'got what they deserved', as death is a very sttep price to pay for stealing a car for joyriding, it is, after all, a very real and possible scenario, as is evidenced in this case. Several have said it already.. the fact that the kid(s) STOLE THE CAR has been brushed to the side. The fact that they died while being chased by a police officer is what the media spin turns out to be. How about this officer? How do you think he feels now that he had to be on the scene of an accident that HE was involved in only to find out that there were mulitple KIDS in the car DEAD. This is a very tragic ending to a common problem. Cars are stolen all the time. I believe that chases have their place and time, high speed or not. I'm not so sure that this was one of those, but I'm also just like everyone else whom has posted.. I don't know all the facts of what happened (road conditions, surroundings, etc) which play a VITAL part of chase practicalities.

I understand the adrenaline that the driver of the car had. I've run from the police (on a motorcycle) before. Very wrong indeed, but I understand how it could happen the way it did. I think that this is indeed a clear messgae that the parents of ALL these kids need to be questioned. Obviously, like the folks that drop their kids of at the theatre, these parents did a less than desirable job at parenting. Kids will be kids, but parents NEED to be parents in order to help prevent shit like this from happening. I'm sick to death of the public pointing fingers at everyone EXCEPT the ones who shoudl be held accountable for their actions. If I F&@* up, I take the punishment. No one else shodul be any different.

I sincerely hope that nothing happens to this officer due to this.
 

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Posted by William Leland III (Member # 1400) on 12-31-2003, 06:26 PM:
 
things like happen all the time, we just never heard about them. its a tradegy for all those lives now changed.

Jason said :

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I've run from the police (on a motorcycle) before

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Jason was it during Bike Week.....
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-31-2003, 10:43 PM:
 

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If people cannot be rehabilitated, what is the purpose of prison or the judicial system?

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How can anyone be rehabilitated, when they're not habilitated to begin with?
 

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Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 01-01-2004, 09:29 AM:
 
Will,

Actually, no. I thought about running once during bike week.... after I rode up on a SCSHP sitting in the middle of the road observing. He saw me come up behind him front wheel airborne and sitting on the tank.. I looked at him to my side while still atop my gas tank (front wheel skyward). After I set it down, I thought for a split second about running, because I knew he woudln't know all the side streets, etc.. but I knew it wasn't worth it when I thought about my other time running...
 

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Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 01-01-2004, 11:54 PM:
 
Another one bites the Dust !!!! News Article follows ===

Road Death Follows Police Pursuit Road Death Follows Police Pursuit
02/01/2004 09:11 AM
NewstalkZB

A man is dead after a police chase in Waihi on the Coromandel Peninsula.

He was in a car that failed to pull over during what police describe as a routine traffic stop at 1:30 Friday morning.

Senior Sergeant John Kelly says a patrol car went to pull over two vehicles seen travelling the wrong way down a one-way street.

One stopped but the second accelerated away from the scene.

Senior Sergeant Kelly says the officer barely had time to pursue the Nissan Bluebird before it crashed after failing to take a corner less then a kilometre away.

A fence post smashed through its windscreen, killing the front seat passenger.

The 17-year-old driver ran off but has since been located by police.

On Thursday a Waipukurau teenager was killed after he fell from the bonnet of a car he was riding on at Aramoana Beach in Hawke's Bay.
 

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Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 01-02-2004, 01:20 AM:
 
One thing that caught my attention - seven kids in the stolen car?
What did they steal - a minvan?

Reading about the crash makes me think that karma was being a bit vindictive that day.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 01-02-2004, 09:56 AM:
 
Maybe they learned all that stuff from the game Grand Theft Auto? But wait -- that's rated M for 17+ so they shouldn't have been playing it anyway. No sympathy there.

I do feel sympathy that these kids may not have had the best of parents to teach them responsibility or right from wrong. Hell, maybe the parents themselves were thieves at one point, but you can't make that assumption or judgement without knowing for sure.

What if the person they stole the car from could indeed afford to have a rental for a few days to get to his job. Surely they had some sort of insurance coverage. Yeah, I know, they still stole his property but property can be recovered or replaced, lives cannot. And maybe ALL of the people in the car weren't involved. Who knows if the rest of the kids were trying to get the driver to stop, who refused. No one will know. Still, they ALL agreed to get into a stolen car!! One wonders what led to this decision.

One thing is straight, though. They all made bad choices which led to bad actions which led to a very important life lesson: "That's what you get." If there's one thing that ISN'T racist, it's stupidity. It affords itself to people of all colors and ethnicity. But it's still tragic. There's seven dead kids and someone's got to sort out their life without their car who's probably having shit for luck as it is since the car apparently had a flat tire shortly before this.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by R. Andrew Diercks (Member # 1725) on 01-02-2004, 12:30 PM:
 

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The occupants were black males and females.
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Is this really relevant to the incident?

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well, I certainly would hope no one would exploit this racially.

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here's seven dead kids and someone's got to sort out their life without their car who's probably having shit for luck as it is since the car apparently had a flat tire shortly before this.

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f the children had survived, they should have faced the punishment of not being able to own, lease, or rent a motor vehicle until the age of 30,

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Haven't people learned by now that execution is exactly what some people want?

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So why not give it to them and be done with it? By what you're saying, the alternative... keeping them alive... just makes them miserable and prone to do more bad things, and costs us money, which makes me miserable, so why not just get rid of them, then everyone will be happy!

I think cops should have heat seeking rocket launchers on their cars so if the chase gets above 80 mph, they can just shoot the car and blow it up.

I have no remorse for the kids at all. If more stupid crimials died making stupid choices then there would be less criminals. It'll be interesting to see if they get a Darwin Award.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-04-2004, 11:44 AM:
 
Chris?

The death penalty?

For car theft?

So, basically, no matter the type of crime -- murder, car theft, robbery - you would just as soon see the perpetrator dead?

In which instances (if not all) would you actually do the killing yourself?

Richard Greco:

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Most criminals as teenagers, black or white, usually stay that way as adults from what I've seen over the years.

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What am I missing here? What exactly have you seen over the years?

(and whatever happened to "21 Jump Street" ?)
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-04-2004, 12:12 PM:
 
This thread is pretty funny. And it underscores some of the "why" talked about in "Bowling For Columbine" in how the news media deserves a lot of the blame in making Americans fearful and hateful toward each other and why we have so many murders. The media shows us easy targets to kick rather than the white collar scumbags who are robbing us blind while our collective attentions are diverted.

Fundamentally, it is an American pasttime to place a priveledged few high on a pedestal (the dangerous pretty people, athletes and the rich) and kick anyone else who is lower. So it is a natural kind of response for anyone to say, "those seven kids in that car deserved to die since it was stolen."

Granted, I think whoever stole the car should do some jail time for it. After all that's grand theft auto and a felony. But none of the them deserved to die.

On the subject of police officers "giving up the chase," there are indeed a lot of cases where they need to do exactly that. Give up the Goddamned chase. The majority of high speed chases start when a driver is avoiding getting written up for a simple traffic violation. Not very many are chases involving people who have committed a felony. Mr. Police Officer, you got his car tag, his vehicle make and all that good shit. Is it really worth it to go chasing after someone and risking lives over such small potatoes!? After all, the driver can be tracked down.

Lots of people are killed every year from these chases. Pedestrians are hit. Other cars are T-boned in intersections and more. Many others are injured for life. That shit is real. It is tough to take when it hits you personally. I saw a Wall Street worker get hit and killed by a van in Staten Island. The vision of it still bothers me to this day. Last weekend, a girl who was best friends with my coworker's daughter was killed in a car accident and they are grieving hard. If some cop rams into my car because he is chasing some guy avoiding a speeding ticket, then I need to be free to sue the living hell out of the police department for being really stupid.

I also have to come down way hard on those IDIOT SCUMBAG TV STATIONS who broadcast all these live chases. They don't need to air any of that stuff live. I equate that kind of infotainment with hardcore pornography. It is a kind of blood sport for people to watch and see who wins and who loses. The helicopter coverage actually helps encourage some of these people to run and get their 15 minutes of fame. It is huge problem in the Los Angeles area.

It is not always necessary to conduct a high speed chase to catch a criminal. The morning after Christmas here in SW OK a highway patrolman was shot and killed by a driver he stopped. OSBI was still able to track the scumbag down a couple days later. The suspect will likely be executed for capital murder of a police officer, possibly within less than five years because of all the evidence on hand.
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 01-04-2004, 12:20 PM:
 
One thing you can say about the death penalty is that one way or the other it deters crime


A great deal of the problem in the US today is there is "No Fear" (seen those bumper stickers?) of penalties for law breaking. No matter what the age group, the rule of law is up held by fear of punishment. When there is no fear, there is no law. Outlaws know the ends and outs of the law and know what they can get away with. There seems to be a trend these days for making excuses for aberrant behavior rather than enforcing the laws and it is the laxness that has encouraged lawlessness. One of my favorite absurd excuses for law breaking is "I was insane". Most often used in murder cases. Well DUH! Of course you are insane if you murder someone. You have to be. No sane person would murder someone else. So this is an excuse?

What we need to do is get back to the rule of law and swift and severe punishment for breaking those laws. We need courts that will convict and punish if proven guilty, and the punishment must be carried out. No more excuses.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-04-2004, 12:24 PM:
 

quote:

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Most criminals as teenagers, black or white, usually stay that way as adults from what I've seen over the years.

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Mr. Police Officer, you got his car tag, his vehicle make and all that good shit. Is it really worth it to go chasing after someone and risking lives over such small potatoes!? After all, the driver can be tracked down.

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Chris?

The death penalty?

For car theft?

So, basically, no matter the type of crime -- murder, car theft, robbery - you would just as soon see the perpetrator dead?

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Prince Philip was once asked if he agreed with the death penalty. 'Well,' he replied, thinking a little, '...only for criminals!'

While I wouldn't go as far as advocating the death penalty for car crime, I do believe very strongly that the police over here (and from this incident it seems as if the same thing is going on in North Carolina) concentrate on minor motoring offences and don't put enough effort into tackling serious ones. For example, ever lower speed limits are being introduced and enforced far more rigourously than before (largely thanks to the expanding use of digital, filmless speed cameras), so much so that there is now a widespread belief that speeding fines are being used simply as an extra source of tax revenue extracted from the middle class by the government, and have little or nothing to do with safety. I couldn't help wondering this myself over Christmas, when confronted with a 30mph limit for several miles of three-lane A-road with no houses anywhere near the side of the road and no engineering works in sight.

Strict enforcement of drink-driving and mobile 'phone use while driving legislation are other similar examples, though these are obviously much more of a safety issue than many speed limits. What all three examples have in common is that they are relatively easy to enforce: speeding by cameras, drink-driving by breathalysers and mobile 'phone use by seeing the offender at it. Furthermore the vast majority of offenders are non-violent and accept that they are at fault.

15 violent thugs who steal a vehicle and then 'joy ride' it at 100mph plus are an entirely different kettle of fish. If you were a policeman, who would you prefer to apprehend: someone in a suit driving his or her Mondeo at 37 in a 30-limit, or having to chase a gang of hooligans, all of them probably armed, at dangerously high speeds?

And yes, then there is the race issue. In the Stephen Lawrence enquiry, the Police were described as 'institutionally racist'. This enquiry followed an incident in 1998 in which London police failed to properly investigate the racially motivated murder of a black teenager, with the result that the perpetrators effectively got away with it. But thanks to what were probably a small number of bad police officers, the entire force now has to operate on the basis that if anyone apprehends anybody who is anything other than 'white', they are likely to have the race card thrown at them.

More recently, the BBC's TV programme The Secret Policeman used undercover reporting to uncover a few more racist fuzz. Granted, they were pretty nasty pieces of work and the force is better off without them. But try as it did, left-wing media organisations such as the BBC and The Guardian have failed to provide any convincing evidence that they are representative of the police as a whole.

So, getting back to our hypothetical traffic cop: if you are faced not only with armed thugs driving a stolen car dangerously but black ones to boot, would you be inclined to go after them if you could possibly avoid it?

What we need is a means of getting tough - and I mean tough - with the violent criminals who make our lives a misery, but also of doing so fairly. People who drive stolen cars at 115mph through urban streets are recklessly endangering the public and need to be stopped from doing so. I'd lock them up for several years, preferably in solitary confinement in order to stop jail becoming a sort of university for professional criminals (thereby removing one of the key objections to the use of custodial sentences often cited by the liberal left). We need to aim for a system in which, if you do this kind of thing you know that (i) you're going to be caught, and (ii) when you are caught, your life will be made extremely unpleasant for a very long time, regardless of your ethnic origin.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-05-2004, 03:17 AM:
 
I read a description of a military prison and it was pretty severe:

Individual cells with just a cot and about 1 foot clearance alongside. Walls (not bars) separated the cells. Inmates were not permitted to speak and were required to stand at attention all day (except for meals and bedtime, etc). They had to turn their backs anytime a guard or other "free" person walked past the cells. There was no physical exercise and no uniforms. They wore only underwear.

How about THAT!
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-05-2004, 03:55 AM:
 
Counterproductive. As John points out:

quote:

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If people cannot be rehabilitated, what is the purpose of prison or the judicial system? If "criminals" are incorrigible, should we just execute them all, lest they commit crime again when they get out of prison? Or keep them in prison forever? In this case, should the sentence for joyriding be death (if not accidental, then execution) or life in prison for all seven youngsters, just in case they might steal another car?

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