Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: New Movies in B&W

This is topic New Movies in B&W in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-20-2004, 10:07 PM:

In your opinion, is there room for black-and-white cinematography today?

I'm particularly interested in knowing how many people would avoid seeing a movie if it was filmed in B&W.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 01-20-2004, 10:49 PM:

Some people might avoid a movie if it was totally in black and white, but more serious movie-lovers probably would not. In recent years, I can think of two movies I enjoyed, one of which was totally black and white, and one which used the black and white to color transition very well. The first movie was "Clerks" and the second was "Pleasantville".

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 01-20-2004, 10:57 PM:

I like black & white movies, but not when they are printed on color stock!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-21-2004, 12:05 AM:

IMHO, one of the requirements of being a real film fan is enjoying black and white movies. B&W cinematography has a completely different style and in some ways can make a story feel more intimate or immediate. To answer the question, yes, B&W is still relevant for filmmaking today. It evokes a visual style which certainly helps the feel of "indie" type films (only with the exeption that B&W movies need to be shot on film --B&W shot on videotape looks like shit).

I agree with Ken about the practice of printing B&W movies on color stock being a mistake. It tarnishes the high contrast look. Colorizing B&W movies is way wrong. Exposure methods are different for color and B&W film (you set exposures for the lightest areas in color whereas you expose for the darks in B&W). So the process just never looks convincing.

I really can't imagine films like "Citizen Kane," "Raging Bull" or even indie cult hits like "Man Bites Dog" being shot in color.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-21-2004, 04:13 AM:

I'm with Ken!

It's too bad that quality B&W lab work is so rare right now, except at places like Alpha Cine and Du Art.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-21-2004, 05:39 AM:

We screened "Coffee and Cigarettes" by Jim Jarmusch a little while ago for a studio delegation. I understand it has been shown on some film festivals, but don`t know if it is scheduled for wider release soon (or if that has already taken place without me noticing it). Anyway, the movie is shot entirely in B&W (some 16, some 35) and also printed on B&W stock. Which reminds me that a number of Jarmusch` films were shot in B&W.

Hey, wait a second - "Man Bites Dog" was actually shown in the US???

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 01-21-2004, 06:06 AM:

Absolutely! B&W photography, be it cinema or still photos and the right story to tell, can provide an ambiance that can't be done in color. I wouldn't advocate doing LOTR in B&W, but I sure can't imagine a film like "Shindler's List" or "The Hustler" in anything but B&W.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-21-2004, 09:30 AM:

Nothing quite matches the "look" of a silver image B&W print of a B&W film with excellent cinematography. [Cool]

That's why Kodak continues to invest in improving and providing a full line of B&W motion picture film products:

Kodak B&W Camera Films

Kodak B&W Print Film (ESTAR base)

Kodak B&W Print Film (triacetate base)

Kodak film for B&W master positives

Kodak film for B&W duplicate negatives

Just a word of caution that B&W silver image prints are more sensitive to heat-related projection issues, as they absorb both visible and infrared radiant energy, whereas color dyes absorb mostly only visible light. So proper lamp alignment (no hot-spotting) and heat filters are important, especially on large screens (high power levels):

Heat Damage, Part 1

Heat Damage, Part 2

Color print film can produce reasonably neutral images from B&W negatives, and is sometimes chosen for very large releases, or when B&W and color images need to be intercut. Intercutting silver image B&W and dye image color prints can be problematic for focus shifting, as the films absorb different amounts of energy.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-21-2004, 09:35 AM:

Is it true that the color segments were lab-spliced into each and every release print of "Schindler's List" or was that movie printed onto color stock?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-21-2004, 09:45 AM:

"Schindler's List" had both intercut prints (silver image B&W intercut with color print) and entire prints on EASTMAN Color Print Film.

The intercut prints did have the expected focus shift issues in some theatres. Some prints required additional lubrication to reduce projector abrasion, per SMPTE Recommended Practice RP151. I wrote two articles about some of the issues in Kodak's "Film Notes for Reel People":

http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/H5033.pdf

http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/H5034.pdf

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-21-2004, 11:11 AM:

We had no focus issue at Northpark on our intercut show print on Century JJs. (I still remember it was print #8.) However across town another theater I was working at the time picked up that very print the day after Northpark lost it and we couldn't keep focus to save our lives during those intercut segments on the Simplexes with straight gates. After the second or third day everyone just gave up and let the color segments run blurry.

I saw a couple of the prints on color stock around town and they looked like [bs]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 01-21-2004, 12:13 PM:

The prints I opened with were the intercut showprints at GCC Sherman Oaks 5 in Sherman Oaks, California. We had three screens running the picture. The main house had no problems, but the triplex across the street had the focus problems. All three house had Century SA projectors. The main house was a 4K and the others were 2K christie consoles. When the color intercuts hit in the triplex they would go out of focus. I think the first color is about 90 minutes to 2 hours into the picture. Universal just kept sending prints from Technicolor over to the theatre for the next few days for a total of 9 prints. The main house had a water cooled gate and the others were not. The problem was that after 2 hours the gate got so hot that when the color intercuts hit it, because of the different stock it would kick it out of focus and go right back into focus with the B&W stock again. On the TAP sheets it gave out the wrong info about the movie setup. And they sent people around to coat the film with Tomacoat. I spent one LONG week opening this picture. [Eek!]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-21-2004, 02:15 PM:

Actually, I recall one of the very first shots being in color.

A brief shot of a match (or candle) being lit?

It's been a while since I saw "Schindler's List." Perhaps I ought to sign up for it on Amazon.

Thanks for the input thus far! [thumbsup]

The reason for my initial question is that I may be fortunate enough to originate my 2nd feature on film. Initially, I had imagined it being in B&W but that idea went away when I started working in video. (I agree with those who say that video doesn't work in B&W.)

Now that I am once again investigating the possibility of shooting on film, I find myself revisiting the 'color vs Black-and-White' issue. My "gut" tells me that this particular film would work very well in B&W but I won't decide until after some tests have been completed.

In the meantime, I would appreciate if you would now spend a while talking about some of your favorite Black-and-White movies. I am most interested in the visual aesthetics of the medium but it would help if the movie itself tells an interesting story.

Movies I have seen and plan to watch again very soon:

THE NIGHT OF THE HUNTER
THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE
SCHINDLER'S LIST
THE LAST PICTURE SHOW
PSYCHO
CITIZEN KANE
PLEASANTVILLE

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-21-2004, 02:28 PM:

Try to see one of the new prints of "The Third Man" which were struck a few years ago (1999?). That film looks absolutely stunning and whatever lab made the prints did a terriffic job.

Keep in mind that Pleasantville was shot on color neg and printed on color stock with the colors desaturated. I don't like the look as much as that of a true B&W print from silver B&W negative, but it was definitely far less grainy.

One downside to B&W is that 35mm blowups from 16mm never seem to look very good, whereas blowups from color neg can look spectacular. For some reason, blowups just look way too grainy and unsharp in B&W.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-21-2004, 02:41 PM:

Thanks for the info on PLEASANTVILLE -- I figured that it had to be printed on color stock since the colors are eventually (re)introduced as the plot progresses.

What about THE MAN WHO WASN'T THERE? Any truth to the rumor that it was filmed in color because some markets would not accept it in Black-and-White?

Will see if I can get hands on actual film prints of these movies, including THE THIRD MAN.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-21-2004, 02:56 PM:

"The Man Who Wasn't There":

http://www.afi.com/tvevents/afiawards01/catalog/manwhowasntthere.asp

http://lightingdimensions.com/ar/lighting_balancing_act/

quote:
But left to be determined was just how Deakins would achieve the film's look. “There were a number of issues,” he says. “I was a bit nervous about shooting on black-and-white negative, because of film speeds, basically. It wasn't a very high-budget production, and I didn't want to use a huge amount of light. I tested black-and-white stocks, and then I shot some 5277 color stock. I asked Beverly Wood at Deluxe to see if she could make a black-and-white print from the color negative, which you would think is easy, but it's not, actually.”

Wood uncovered a relatively obscure Kodak black-and-white print stock, 5269, which is mostly used for titles. “It's quite high-contrast,” Deakins says of the stock. “The way it's usually used, the contrast is too heavy. So we reduced the contrast by playing around with the development time and stuff, until we found something that we really liked. That gave us a print that I actually liked better than the black-and-white original.” The problem with shooting on a color negative, the DP points out, is that “you're wide open to someday seeing that film in color.” But what sealed the deal was a USA Films contractual stipulation to supply a color print for European video markets. “It's a very muted, desaturated color version, and it's not one I hope is ever going to be seen theatrically,” Deakins says.

Audio interview with cinematographer Roger Deakins:

http://www.cameraguild.com/interviews/chat_deakins/clip4.rm

http://www.cameraguild.com/interviews/chat_deakins/deakins_conversation.htm

Kodak CineSite did the ground-breaking "digital intermediate" work on "Pleasantville":

http://www.theasc.com/protect/nov98/pleasantville/pg1.htm

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 01-21-2004, 04:30 PM:

manny,

do you mean you will get your hands on 16mm prints, or will you resort to repertory theaters/archives? do you have any of those there?

try to check out "in cold blood" (dp: conrad hall). also, the other day i saw anthony mann's "desperate" (dp: john alton). very different crime films but both with swoon-worthy photography. they both exist in great prints but the second might be a little obscure. if you watch them on video, there will be sequences you'll want to watch over and over again.

another film that is simply stunning in every respect from start to finish is "the letter that was never sent" (dp: sergei urusevsky). it's one of the most gorgeous films i've ever seen.

carl

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-21-2004, 04:36 PM:

I am hoping to requisition some "loaner" or rental prints for research purposes.

I am not up-to-date on where to go for older prints. Somebody else will be handling that but I'd still appreciate any pointers on where to look (or avoid).

Ideally, these would be 35mm but probably 16mm in cases of older titles.

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 01-21-2004, 07:28 PM:

This is from the early '80's, definately one to see. " Die Sehnsucht der Veronika Voss". [thumbsup]

Danny

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-21-2004, 09:59 PM:

There is a nice documentary about the history and art of cinematography, "Visions of Light" in which many famous cinematographers discuss their work and influences. A good deal of the movie is about B&W aesthetics.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-21-2004, 10:17 PM:

Visions of Light:

http://www.top-selling-dvds.com/630583685X

http://www.cameradept.com/books.htm

Posted by Ky Boyd (Member # 23) on 01-22-2004, 09:54 PM:

Don't forget Patrice LeConte's Girl on the Bridge (2000).