Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Avid vs. Final Cut Pro

This is topic Avid vs. Final Cut Pro in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Tal Marks (Member # 175) on 02-01-2004, 08:59 PM:

Hi y'all.

I would like to know if I were to pursue some formal education in the editing arena, what would be better to learn? Avid or FCP?

I have some working knowledge of FCP and I'm familiar with the interface. I have not, though, worked with the Avid. Is there one platform with more advantages of mastering than the other? From what I read and see, it seems Avid is more of a "professional" platform as FCP is widely used in the Indie world. I'm sure I'm wrong.

I would ultimately like to be involved in the motion picture feature film world (like i am now), but on the post-production side. If anyone is currently using either one of the above mentioned programs professionally, I'd like to know why one and not the other and what types of projects you've worked on. If you could also state your opinion as to the pros & cons of each, that'd be great, too.

If I'm leaving out any pertinent information to answer any questions, please let me know.

thanks.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-01-2004, 09:05 PM:

Everything seems to be going the FCP route, from what I've read.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-01-2004, 09:21 PM:

Ultimately, you're probably going to need familiarity with both. FCP is gaining acceptance with bigger budget features.

With those two thoughts in mind, I would then recommend that you start with FCP as it is easier to own -- and you could conceivably get more gigs if you could provide your own gear. Learn and practice "the principles" with FCP as you also learn the software.

Classroom experience will prove beneficial if it walks you through the process of actually capturing and managing video dailies that originated on film -- with SMPTE timecode in addition to code numbers for picture and sound. Learn how to read and decipher an edit decision list (EDL) as well as how to use it to conform a workprint based on that information. You won't learn these concepts very well if you're just working with DV footage and you won't get (or keep) a real editing job if you're green in these areas.

Once you have the principles down it will be easier to learn Avid. The cost of that system is still a bit prohibitive so you probably won't be able to own one (especially if you've already spent $ on a system with FCP). This means that your Avid experience will likely come strictly via classroom training or work experience.

You're probably going to start as an editorial PA, apprentice or intern. Not too much editing there but you can move up to Assistant Editor pretty quickly these days and for that job you're going to need skills and experience in organizing and managing the footage moreso than actual hands-on digital editing. The approach to management of the footage doesn't change all that much...even if you're cutting actual film.

Which all brings me back to FCP. Start there. [thumbsup]

Career Tip: The movie industry likes people who show up a little early and can devote their attention and their time to the work at hand. I've personally known people who got "replaced" (see "fired") for taking a sick day and routinely showing up "a little late" or leaving "a little early."

Posted by Tal Marks (Member # 175) on 02-01-2004, 09:59 PM:

Though I can already hunt & peck my way through FCP I have a feeling that's the place to start. Thanks Manny for those tips and words of wisdom.

MIX Magazine (Feb, 2004) has a great article by Stephen St. Croix (P.24) talking about how Apple is changing the face of media apps with GarageBand and FCP Express, for starters. It looks like Apple is out to conquer all.

-t

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-01-2004, 10:05 PM:

Learn how to sync dailies!

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-01-2004, 10:09 PM:

Yeah, I was gonna say...

...if at all possible, try to gain some experience on a film that is actually screening FILM dailies (with sync sound) and conforming a workprint for screenings.

You would be missing a lot of the process if you work on a show that isn't getting film dailies.

Posted by Tal Marks (Member # 175) on 02-01-2004, 10:24 PM:

Yeah. Maybe I should start talking to all the people that come to my theater with unmarried prints and other various workprints. There's almost always some asst. editors glued to them.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-02-2004, 12:28 AM:

You could find yourself working in the real world pretty darn quick if you're willing to donate time.

Postproduction schedules are getting tighter and tighter and this means that a lot of editorial staff are working under extreme pressure. Budgets don't give them the staffing they really need. If you're willing to get your experience by working for free it could pay off in the not-so-long-run.

When an editor gets a job, he's more likely to want to re-hire the last guy(s) he worked with -- if they worked well together (and if they're available). You could get paid after working two or three gigs for free. They know you won't work like that forever and they'll REALLY like you a lot and probably feel indebted to you because of your sacrifice(s).

Another tip: Even when donating time, you should work as though you were getting paid. This means don't be a lazy guy but, at the same time, don't let people take advantage of you or disrespect you.

Gee, you're making me wanna get back into editing. [Eek!]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-02-2004, 12:48 AM:

I would be amazed if EDL's will be necessary in the future. Cutting and snipping negatives will become a lost art I believe. It will be easier just to edit the entire thing in a non-linear app and then output directly to film. I guarantee that day is coming.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-02-2004, 04:40 AM:

What about those who still prefer to edit on film, Joe?

The whole "digital intermediate" thing really isn't cost-effective for films which don't involve any optical/digital effects work. And workprints will still be needed for dailies screenings (any decent DP will want film dailies).

Edit: is there some sort of "trick" for syncing (synching?) dailies? I've done it before with 16mm and it's really not difficult as long as there are proper slates at the head or tail of each scene. It _is_ time consuming, however.

Edit #2: is there a book out there with information on EDLs, film matchback from video/EDL, etc.? I've seen FCP, but not with the film plugin which is needed to provide a proper cut list automatically, without needing to use tc/keycode burn-ins and pencil and paper to do it manually.

[ 02-02-2004, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Scott Norwood ]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-02-2004, 07:10 AM:

Final Cut Pro is a great app, but it is more tailored to doing video work. Avid holds the strong lead on the professional end, particularly when it comes to editing feature films. Keep in mind, I'm talking about the high-end turnkey systems sold by Avid, not the "affordable" software they sell for use on PCs and Macs. The same thing can also be said about systems sold by Discreet and Pinnacle.

Comments I've heard from professional photographers and videographers suggest the most important thing to have in getting a good post-production job is simply having a good looking portfolio or work (your reel). Many of those high end systems have a lot of the same basic concepts at work and it should not make much of a difference if you're great at using Final Cut Pro, Avid or whatever. If you're good, you're good and the person doing the hiring should see that in your work, not in some stupid list of apps you may or may not know.

I'll tell you, the American graphics industry would be in much better shape if people were hired based on portfolios rather than bullshit application lists on their resumes. Collectively, the US graphics scene sucks badly, all thanks to so many businesses hiring unqualified, untalented people and driving down the wage scales. Places like Sweden have a much better environment with quality of work being the important thing.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-02-2004, 07:22 AM:

Bobby makes a good point. Hiring an editor because he knows how to use {Avid, FCP, Steenbeck, Moviola, etc.} is stupid. It's like hiring an accountant because he knows how to use Excel or a photographer because he knows how to use a Hasselblad camera. One should hire people based on thier knowledge and ability in their primary field (editing/storytelling, accounting, photography/art, etc.), not based on their ability to operate particular tools.

Ideally, one would hire an editor based on seeing prior work and then let him use whatever tool he is most comfortable with. And, anyway, any competent editor should be able to learn whatever equipment is necessary to do the job, just as any competent accountant should be able to learn software which makes his job easier and any photographer ought to be able to adapt to whatever type of camera is most appropriate for the job. Ultimately, the employer should care most about the quality of the finished film, accounting records, or photographs, not the tools which were used in the process.

Not to mention that one who is skilled in a particular area usually knows what tools are most appropriate for each jobs. You wouldn't use a Steenbeck to cut "reality TV" shows, Excel to keep records for a company the size of IBM, General Motors, or Shell Oil, or an 8x10 view camera to photograph sports, at least not any more than you would use a screwdriver to pound nails. Hire the craftsman for his skills and ability and let him choose the tools that are appropriate for the job.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-02-2004, 09:54 AM:

Lots of information on the Motion Picture Editors Guild website:

http://www.editorsguild.com/

http://www.editorsguild.com/news.html

http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/MayJun02/training_update.html

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 02-02-2004, 10:33 AM:

Bobby Henderson makes an excellent point. Learn the craft from a creative standpoint, and don't limit yourself to one app. If you choose just one app to become an "expert" in, you may limit yourself in the job market. Because different companies have invested in different apps.

COLD MOUNTAIN is an axample of a film cut on FCP. Just watch a lot of people now "rushing" to the format, with some false reassurance that it is the app, not the editor running the app, that made it a good editing job. It was Walter Murch, who has edited on probably every conceivable piece of editing equipent in the last thirty years who provided the skill and talent.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-02-2004, 04:31 PM:

First -- I believe I made that same point earlier when I suggested buying FCP to learn the software and to also get hands-on experience.

Second -- It is all fine and well to say how the world SHOULD work but you're not helping Tal in the final analysis. The reality of the situation is that our friend won't get much work without experience dealing with the software and the technical process. In the end, it won't matter how good his editing reel looks if he cut it on film and doesn't know how to use a digital editing solution.

Third -- The concept of syncing dailies is an easy one but doing so with speed and without making a mess of the film takes practice.

Fourth -- A digital intermediate might make sense nowadays if there are a lot of costly process shots but if it's mostly straight-cutting then I would imagine that a negative cutter conforming to an EDL should always be cheaper. Granted, I would agree with the notion that the cost of getting a DI -- and the time it takes to generate one -- will continue to drop to the point where the negative cutter will indeed become a rare find. Of course, when dCinema comes along there won't be any more negatives to cut, right?

Posted by Tal Marks (Member # 175) on 02-02-2004, 06:19 PM:

Well, it doesn't look like I have much of a choice this time. Coming this close to the deadline for signing up for classes this semester, it seems all the seats are taken for every section of "Digital Editing with Final Cut Pro I". It looks like I'll get one of the last spots in "Digital Editing with Avid XPress I" starting next Monday, Feb. 9th. I'm also slated for "Technologies & Techniques" on Tuesdays. (btw, anyone want to take a guess why the Avid class is 40 more bucks than the FCP class?)

I think it's important to be cross-trained on multi-platforms so one can adapt to any work environment. I'll bust my butt @ school with the Avid and will most likely see some similar aspects from it in FCP at home. It's been quite a while since I've been in school... should be exciting.

thanks everyone!

-Tal

Posted by Warren Smyth (Member # 1838) on 02-03-2004, 03:42 PM:

I've used the Avid Media Composer for about twelve years and more recently the Quantel. The Avid gave us a few problems at the start with bugs. For example if you transferred a clip from a bin to the source monitor while the digitize tool was open, it would crash resulting in the loss of some of your work. With software updates, these have been rectified.

The Avid is now my first choice and is a wonderful tool. Keep in mind that whatever system you use, it is only a tool and yes, the training on one will benefit you for other systems. The terminology may change, but certain principals and methods remain the same.

Generally, editing falls into three main skill requirements.

1 There is the craft, which deals with the creative aspects such as film grammar, continuity, pacing etc.

2. The technical aspects of working and modifying pictures and multiple sound channels and all variations (trimming, split edits etc) and at the same time maintaining sync.

3 The actual operation of the particular editing system to achieve the first two as well as file management digitizing etc.

The first skill is the most important and that which takes the longest to develop. Editing is a craft where experience really does count, so the more editing decisions you can make to see what works and what doesn't, the better. A modest priced home system will enable you to do that.

The first and second set of skills really haven't changed since the days of editing on film with a work print. As an example, the ruler calibraited in frames along the edge of the Steenbeck or flat bed Moviola to measure off frames before cutting, has been replaced with a centre trim icon and sync reference numbers on the digital timeline. The traps and theory remain the same.

Unfortunately, there is plenty of literature about the third skill - operation of the system which you can get out of the manuals anyway (Avid produce good ones for their products), but not a lot to cover the first. Some of the best on editing theory were written in the film days. It's as if the technology has been alowed to dominate the creative aspect. The idea that there is fear (unfounded or not) that an editor should be chosen on the basis of the tool on which he or she has used, proves this. Would you employ a particular builder on the basis of his tools? You can be sure that any director that employs you on the basis of a particular editing system surely isn't going to value you for your craft skills. I can assure you it is your creativity that sets you apart as an editor. It is that which gives you the competitive edge.

Having emphasised the craft aspect, it is still a good idea to try to get a copy of an Avid manual before the course and read it. You may not be able to understand all of it but any prior knowledge is useful and don't get hung up on the effects palet options. The most common and usually effective transition is the cut. Finally, good luck and enjoy yourself.

I moved out of the projection room in my late twenties nearly thirty years ago and trained as a film editor. Never regretting it, Ive been editing continuously since.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-03-2004, 07:52 PM:

quote:
Unfortunately, there is plenty of literature about the third skill - operation of the system which you can get out of the manuals anyway.

This is a valid argument which can be made about how most classes are taught that involve digital-based creativity, be it video production/editing, graphic design, 3D, etc.

At times, I have thought about going back to school to earn a master of fine arts degree. I don't have the money to go back to School of Visual Arts in New York to do it. And I see too much computer application classes in the offerings at Oklahoma University and Cameron here in Lawton. There's not enough going on in the REAL PART of the creative process: getting the concepts together in your head and solving those visual problems quickly. Hell, there's such a lack of that going on that I've even thought about getting whatever qualifications I need to teach that stuff to others.

The thought process of art creation was one of the fundamental things when most people did their creative work in the "analog" realm (using film, oil paints, etc.). The big thing that needs to be flushed out of so many heads is the idea that the computer is doing the work. That's why there's this trap about just learning how to point and click in an application without really knowing how to create with it.

Posted by Warren Smyth (Member # 1838) on 02-03-2004, 09:33 PM:

Bobby wrote

quote:
I see too much application classes in the offerings at Oklahoma University

I'm sure you are correct Bobby, but I can recommend a week long workshop in Norman at the Oklahoma University.

This is the MPPA course which is run about this time every year and is a very intensive television skills course, but applies to other industries as well. The emphasis is on the creative aspects of directing, camera work and editing in the "real" world. A note of warning, they don't tolerate fools and it has sometimes been referred to as "Boot Camp".The fact that we have regularly paid to send staff to it from half way round the globe is testimonial to it's value.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-05-2004, 06:00 PM:

I'm sorry, I thought the poster was already editing. Two must-read texts about film language and editing are:

The Technique of Film Editing by Karel Reisz
The Five C's of Cinematography by Joseph Mascelli

They have become indespensible to me in my filmmaking activities.

Posted by Tal Marks (Member # 175) on 02-05-2004, 08:44 PM:

Thanks for those recommendations, Tim. I'll see what the school is going to have me buy, then I'll consider those two titles as well.

-t

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-05-2004, 09:48 PM:

Happy Birthday, Tal! [beer]

Posted by Tal Marks (Member # 175) on 02-05-2004, 10:39 PM:

Thanks, Manny. Though you're over a month early, I'll make an exception this one time. Is being 30 all it's cracked up to be?

[Smile]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 02-05-2004, 10:45 PM:

OK then...Happy Pre-B'Day Tal!

>>> Phil

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-06-2004, 12:59 AM:

30 is wonderful, wish I could go back and do it again!

(Actually 25 was better.)

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-06-2004, 09:49 PM:

Congratulations, Josh!!!

Posted by Tal Marks (Member # 175) on 02-06-2004, 10:35 PM:

Not only am I turning 30 & getting married this year, but I've finally gotten to posting my 50th message in just over 4 years!
Talk about priorities! [Razz]