This is topic Mothballing a car in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-08-2004, 03:41 AM:
 
A friend recently broke her hip in a skiing accident. As a result she is likely to be in hospital for several months and unable to drive for the best part of a year. She's asking me for help in 'mothballing' her car in a way which minimises any potential damage which could result from it being out of use for that long.

The vehicle in question is a 2002 Ford Fiesta, 1.4 Diesel injection, with 18k miles on the clock. My friend has a garage, which is a help. From a hunt on the Internet, I've found the following suggestions for long-term storage:

Is this all really necessary and is there anything I've missed? On the battery issue, I'm a little bit in two minds whether to do this, because if I do then presumably the engine management computer will lose all its settings and the radio security code will need re-entering (and knowing my friend, I bet she's lost the bit of paper with the code on it). I had in mind to charge it up every month or so to maintain this data. Surely if the fuel's been drained, then there is no fire risk?
Many thanks in advance...
 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-08-2004, 03:53 AM:
 
Emptying a fuel take may reduce the risk of wire, but it increases the risk of explosion. [Smile]

I'd rather have a fire. Just like I'd rather drop a match into a completely full jerry can rather than an empty or nearly empty one. Regardless, there's no more risk of a fire, etc. than there is any other day that the car is actually in use.

Whether all of the above is necessary is really a matter of preference and what the vehicle is really worth to her.

Disconnecting the battery and putting it on blocks is usually a good idea since it keeps the suspension from flattening out and avoids tire flat spots. Since the vehicle is on blocks, there's not much point in deflating the tires since they won't be touching the ground.

Draining the oil out is something I'd avoid. Changing the oil before and after storage is probably a good idea, but leaving the oil pan empty is something I prefer not to do.

Same goes with the fuel tank, and it really depends on the environment it is stored in, I like to leave it nearly full since it prevents condensation building up and corroding the entire tank.
 
Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 03-08-2004, 04:37 AM:
 
Daryl,

This is a Diesel engine, as such I wouldn't worry about an explosion or rust in the fuel tank due to condensation. With Diesel fuel, being oil based,the entire fuel system should have ample protection from rust!

You're thinking gasoline, [Smile] Diesel has entirely different burn characteristics.

A Diesel powered car can be stored with fuel in the tank for up to three years without any fuel degredation.I know this from first hand experience.

A trickle battery charger would suit the purpose of keeping the battery charged while not running the risk of loosing critical (to her) non-permanent memory settings without causing damage to the battery.

Changing the oil is a good Idea, but draining is also unnecessary.
 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-08-2004, 04:41 AM:
 
I stopped thinking hours ago, I forgot it was a desiel powered vehicle.

Diesel fuel does seem to last forever. I think one of our 500 gallon diesel tanks hasn't been re-filled in about four years or so. No complaints from John Deere yet.
 
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-08-2004, 05:16 AM:
 
Absolutely, I change oil and filters, (transmission, axles etc too) when my Range Rover is going to sit for any length of time. I don't like the idea about removing the oil filter and leaving the sump plug and filler cap off. Dust and dirst will settle in there, and also the oil pump is boud to become de-primed, ok the chances are on a modern engine it's self priming, but there's still going to be that awful few seconds at start up where there is ZERO oil circulating.

Either drain the coolant or make sure it's up to spec on antifreeze, you don't want to come back to a cracked radiator or block.

Something that's not on Leo's list: Leave the handrake disengaged, otherwise it'll be frozen on in a years time. The advice about leaving a window or sunroof open is sound.

With regard to the battery: It will go flat over that period of time, almost sure of it. Personally I'd remove it, but make sure yo've got the radio code. You can buy gadgets to keep the vehicles memory systems going from 9v PP3 batteries of it's that big a worry, but Ford diesel (It's an Endura aint it?) management systems aren't all that clever anyway. The TDCi is a different story.

I give all the locks and hinges a good oiling before long term garaging, and also WD40 and wipe the door seals, they just love to stick otherwise.

On an aside, when you do come to restart the engine, I'd remove the glow plugs or injectors and spin the lump on the starter until the oil pressure warning light goes out. Then start the engine as normal.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-08-2004, 07:12 AM:
 
Disclaimer: I don't know much about cars. Having said that, would it be worth considering the idea of having someone drive the vehicle once per week or so, rather than mothballing it? It seems like most mechanical devices last longer when they are used, rather than when they sit idle (and are allowed to rust, etc.). Am I completely crazy to think that this would be a better solution? Or are their other considerations (not wanting to pay insurance cost for a year, etc.) that enter into this discussion as well?
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-08-2004, 09:28 AM:
 
Yes, I did think about a plan B, which was to use the car for one round trip to work each week. This would put around 5k miles on it, assuming Serena is out of action for a year. But there are several arguments against that: I'd have to insure myself on it (about £200), the car would have to be road taxed when that runs out next month (£160), and putting 5k miles on it would incur maintenance costs and significantly depreciate the value of the car. All that compares with a cost of around £100 for axle stands and a complete change of 'bodily fluids', so to speak. Furthermore, Serena's flat is a 40-minute walk from mine and the car is not very comfortable for someone of my height (6'4"), all of which makes me want to mothball it.

quote:
Whether all of the above is necessary is really a matter of preference and what the vehicle is really worth to her.
It's a pretty new car (less than 2 years) with quite low miles, so I think it's worth taking care and doing the job right.

The concensus seems to be:
Thanks for your help, folks. Looks like I've got a fun weekend in store!
 
Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 03-08-2004, 09:51 AM:
 
You might check with your friend's doctor and rehab person, since the people I know who had broken their hips were able to walk (with the support of a walker) within a day or two of reconstructive surgery.

With power steering and braking, and perhaps some adjustment to the control pedals, the period of recovery may be shorter than you imagine, and make some of the steps you are planning unnecessary.
 
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-08-2004, 10:17 AM:
 
Leo, removing the glow plugs is a lot easier than removing the injectors, they are designed to be easily replaced, a bit like spark plugs in a petrol engine.

Another one, throw a dust sheet over it. It's amazing how much muck will settle on a vehicle in the space of a year!
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-08-2004, 10:48 AM:
 
quote:
You might check with your friend's doctor and rehab person, since the people I know who had broken their hips were able to walk (with the support of a walker) within a day or two of reconstructive surgery.
Sadly the prognosis here isn't as short term. The hip is actually broken in several places. She also has fractures in her upper leg, two ribs and right arm. The accident happened just over a fortnight ago, since when she's had two operations: the best case scenario is that she'll need two more. She hit a concealed rock when skiing downhill at high speed while on holiday in Austria. The doctors estimate a timescale of 4-6 months in hospital and 9-12 before being fit to drive again. And Serena is a doctor herself (a GP who has done a fair bit of looking after orthopaedic patients in the final stages of recovery).

So if she's buying that story I think it's worth working on the assumption that the car won't be seeing much use for a while. It may be that she ends up selling it anyway - her consultant reckons that many people recovering from these injuries prefer an automatic, which this isn't. But if she does do that we obviously want the thing is as good a condition as possible when the time comes to flog it, hence the mothballing exercise.

Pete - thanks for the tip about glow plugs. I've never done any work on a Diesel before (all my cars have had petrol engines), but I'm sure that with a Haynes manual, all will be revealed!
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-08-2004, 11:28 AM:
 
Would there be some value in cranking the engine once (not long enough or fast enough to start it) after it has cooled down from its last run? The idea would be to leave a nice film of oil on the cylinder walls that is not burned away in combustion and those last couple squirts from the fuel injectors would clean the nozzles so the fuel wouldn't get baked in and carbonized from residual heat which, I don't know, but could be a problem if it then sits for months.

This sort of reminds me of On the Beach where the guy carefully mothballs his sports car for the coming eons as all life dies due to nuclear war.
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-08-2004, 02:14 PM:
 
quote:
Would there be some value in cranking the engine once (not long enough or fast enough to start it) after it has cooled down from its last run?
I certainly can't see how it could do any harm.

quote:
This sort of reminds me of On the Beach where the guy carefully mothballs his sports car for the coming eons as all life dies due to nuclear war
Well, this situation is certainly a bit depressing - not least because my friend took the holiday as a way of drawing a line under a drawn-out and traumatic divorce. But I certainly hope it doesn't get that depressing! Still, it could be worse - at least I don't have to look after her cat.

Funny you should mention On the Beach, though - Nevil Shute is one of my favourite authors, and I was re-reading In the Wet over the weekend.

Thanks again for all the tips.
 
Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 03-09-2004, 12:45 AM:
 
I don't know much about diesels, but for gasoline engined cars it's best to drain the tank. Also oil & gas can leave 'lacquered' deposits over time as they sit, wreaking havoc on fuel pumps, oil galleries in the head, etc. And it always seems that the worst things that hit cars which sit up is the brake systems crap out with the seals in the cylinders perishing, rusting of the brake lines (worse with non-silicone brake fluids, since they're hygroscopic), & rubber suspension parts deteriorating. And the water pump! What is it about water pumps which crap out from sitting up?

In general, if you had the choice of acquiring a car that had been in storage for a year or one that was only driven on weekends, you'd want the second one. Ask your friend if you can take her car to the dirt track on weekends.
 
Posted by Pete Wolla (Member # 1581) on 03-09-2004, 08:33 PM:
 
a good HMO would have her home in a week open the door and run the car on the stands once in a while or at least a hose on the exhastout the door
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-09-2004, 09:51 PM:
 
My thoughts:

* Change the oil and run the engine for a short time before putting the car up. (Driving back from the mechanic is enough.)

* Leave the tank full to prevent water condensation in the tank. Diesel fuel won't foul like gasoline can. If you're worried about that, how about some fuel stabilizer?

* Put the car up on blocks but keep the tires pressurized. Tubeless radial tires tend to lose air if they aren't taken out and heated up every few days. Check air pressure regularly. Once the pressure goes down below critical levels, the bead can break loose and you'll have a blowout when the tires come under weight.

* Take the battery out of the car and store seperately or use a trickle charger. The engine computer doesn't store THAT much information. It uses "fuzzy logic" to regulate the engine. It will quickly "relearn" what it needs to know.

* Does the car have airbags? (I assume it does.) You'll definately want to remove the battery. After about 5 minutes of down time, the air bag deployment system loses its backup power. This lessens the chances (however remote) of the air bags deploying on you for no reason. Yes, I have seen airbags that have gone off for no reason while the car was sitting still! It's truely a rare occurence but, hey! 5 minutes worth of caution is worth the potential trouble saved!

* If you can, take the car out and drive it every once in a while. Oh, every month or so... One year isn't THAT long for a car to sit but getting the oil flowing through the engine can only be good for it.

* Leave a window slightly open and/or put a package or DampRid (Calcium Chloride crystals) inside the cab to absorb excess moisture from the air.
 
Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 03-09-2004, 10:34 PM:
 
I've only skimmed this thread so forgive me if this has been said.

My ford owner's manual says to put a fresh coat of wax on the paint and chrome polish on any chrome such as bumbers or wheels.
 
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 03-09-2004, 11:27 PM:
 
Re: Diesels...
Since I don't normally put enough hours on my diesel generator to fully cycle the fuel each year, I usually put in some of that fuel stabiliser that you can get at most auto parts stores. That might be something to consider as you fill the tank for the last time.

On the other hand, if, as Erick says, diesel is ok for 3 years, that may not be necessary... for either of us.

Seemed a good idea though.
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-10-2004, 01:39 AM:
 
I've now got hold of a Haynes manual for the Fiesta, which pretty much confirms everything said here - with the exception of draining the coolant. It says that the Ford 'factory fill' coolant is supposed to last the entire life of the car and that it should never be replaced unless the cooling system springs a leak for some reason (e.g. the radiator fails). If it does ever need to be replaced, it should then be changed every two years thereafter.

I'm not sure I get the logic of that: if a fresh fill of coolant is supposed to last as long as the engine, surely a replacement fill (assuming you use Ford-approved coolant with properly distilled water and in the correct proportions) should do likewise?

The manual doesn't specifically cover a long-term mothballing situation, though it does mention it in passing in the sections on other procedures. I'm inclined to drain the coolant anyhow, in case the active ingredient sinks to the bottom of the radiator over time, leaving water at the top which then freezes.

Points taken about the advantages of a regular drive - but I am reluctant to do that because of the cost of taxing and insuring the car compared to mothballing it for the duration. Plus also, in a mothballed state and stored in a locked garage, it stands almost zero charge of getting nicked, because any thief would not only have to defeat the immobiliser, but also do several hours of work to the car in order to make it driveable.

Thanks again for the advice.
 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-10-2004, 01:51 AM:
 
FWIW, my Ford Thunderbird SC gets stored for about 6-8 months of the year depending on how long winter lasts. I've never drained the coolant and have never had so much as a hint of a problem. I wouldn't drain it.
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-21-2004, 01:03 PM:
 
Well, the deed is now done. I did drain the coolant in the end. When I got the car up on axle stands and the bonnet open I found the coolant level almost at the minimum mark. A rusted jubilee clip where the feed hose is fixed to the bottom of the radiator and heavy, tell-tale white deposits all over the vicinity indicated where the leak was. Given that more coolant would probably leak while the car is laid up anyway, I drained the coolant, flushed the cooling system and will refill it with a new mixture when the time comes.

I also left a sheet in the car itself saying exactly what I'd done and what needs to be done to recommission it, in the (unlikely) event that it's someone other than me who does the recommissioning. Found a plastic tarpaulin for a very reasonable £5 in a nearby car parts discount shop and cut a hole in it where the open crack in the window is, to prevent condensation building up within the cabin.

The prognosis for Serena is now a bit better than it was: it seems that with good luck, she might be driving again by July/August-ish. According to the physiotherapist a car with an automatic gearbox might end up being the best option, but we don't need to take any decisions on that just yet.

Thanks again for all the advice.
 
Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 03-22-2004, 01:35 AM:
 
quote:

MACBETH: I have done the deed. Didst thou not hear a noise?

LADY MACBETH: I heard the owl scream and the crickets cry.
Which reminds me, moths & varmints like squirrels, mice, racoons, birds, etc. getting in, setting up residence, & eating upholstery & wiring both in the cabin & under the hood are a major problem with cars in storage. In the antiquue auto freak sub-world, the universally acclaimed as unbettered varmint-repeller for stored cars is leaving bars of Irish Spring bath soap under the seats, in the footwells, under the hood, etc. I suppose over there it may be called Nova Scotian Autumn, or if there is no equivalent at all, you may need to just use mothballs & mice baits.

They eat the spark plug wires. Folks are amazed when they discover this, but there must be something mighty tasty in those spark plug wires.
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-22-2004, 09:45 AM:
 
quote:
MACBETH: I have done the deed. Didst thou not hear a noise?

LADY MACBETH: I heard the owl scream and the crickets cry.
She only asked me to sort out her car, not murder someone!

quote:
Which reminds me, moths & varmints like squirrels, mice, racoons, birds, etc. getting in, setting up residence, & eating upholstery & wiring both in the cabin & under the hood are a major problem with cars in storage.
Many thanks - good point, especially as her garage is right next to a railway embankment, where the rodent population is likely to be quite high. There again, most of the households in that vicinity have cats, so it might not be too much of a problem. I'll certainly keep a look out when I pop in and check the flat and garage over every fortnight or so.
 
Posted by Paul Turner (Member # 832) on 03-22-2004, 11:36 PM:
 
Drain the oil then refill with clean oil and run the engine a short while. Diesel engine oil contaminated with combustion gasses can form acids. Now, as new as this car is (as opposed to my 21 year old MB diesel), that may not be an issue. I'd not leave the oil drained. Top the tank. If any part of your diesel mix is bio-diesel (it's around in the states), put in a half gallon of gasoline (for each ten gallons of diesel)to kill algae that might form. Put a moisture absorbing unit in the car to cut down on interior mildew. Cover with a SOFT tarp that breaths. Leave hood unlatched --if that cable freezes you'll spend hours getting the hood open. Remove battery but keep close by in case, for what ever reason, you have to move the car. A $20 Battery Tender and a few cents in electricity will keep the batt topped off and working.
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-29-2005, 01:06 PM:
 
Off came the plastic tarpaulin this morning and the recommissioning went without a hitch. Oil, filter, air filter, cabin air filter, fuel filter, gearbox oil, coolant, brake fluid, power steering fluid and glowplugs all replaced; tyres reinflated to rated pressure and car lowered off axle stands; battery recharged and reconnected; belt tensions checked; engine turned over three times manually; and then the moment of truth. The engine caught on the second or third turn of the starter motor. I let it idle in neutral for 10 minutes or so and we then took it for a 20 mile drive up the A19. For the first few minutes the acceleration was erratic: the car would suddenly put on a spurt of power (especially in low gears) or drop back a lot. I guess this must have been the engine management computer 'learning' the chraracteristics of the engine again. The temperature remained rock steady throughout the drive and at the end of it all the fluid levels looked normal.

The only problem was a very trivial one - the radio/CD thinggy had locked itself out when the battery power went and there was a minor panic locating the bit of paper with the unlock code on it, but that was all.

But at the end of it all Serena has more-or-less decided to sell it and go for an automatic. Her left leg took the brunt of the accident and, although she's now off crutches, operating the clutch is painful. But at least the car seems to have survived 10 months in mothballs in reasonable shape. Thanks to all for your advice last spring.
 
Posted by Thomas King (Member # 2745) on 01-29-2005, 10:29 PM:
 
I can't believe no-one's suggested carbonite.

There is a marginal problem with bounty hunters though.
 
Posted by Scott Balko (Member # 438) on 02-02-2005, 08:20 PM:
 
The surges you felt were more than likely caused by air in the injection lines since you had disconnected them to remove the injectors.

On the subject of fresh oil before storage, if a natural mineral based oil is used, there's always a certain amount of moisture in the oil. Since the normal operating temperature of engine oil is approx. 225-240 F, it is recommended that the engine be opperated for roughly one hour before it's stored away to boil off the naturally occuring moisture. There does exist the possibility that some rust damage could occur on long storage if an engine is stored immediately after a fresh oil change.

I'm glad to hear all went well. [Smile]
 




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