Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: I'm glad I'm not this pilot!

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-20-2004, 07:15 PM:

From CNN......

" Airliner lands at wrong airport
Passengers told not to peek
Sunday, June 20, 2004 Posted: 4:42 PM EDT (2042 GMT)

ST. PAUL, Minnesota (AP) -- A Northwest Airlines flight that was headed to Rapid City, South Dakota, landed a few miles off course at Ellsworth Air Force Base, and passengers had to wait in the plane for more than three hours while their crew was interrogated.

Passengers on Northwest Flight 1152, an Airbus A-319 from St. Paul, expected to be welcomed to Rapid City Regional Airport on Saturday, but after about five minutes they were told to close their window shades and not look out, said passenger Robert Morrell.

"He (the pilot) hemmed and he hawed and he said 'We have landed at an Air Force base a few miles from the Rapid City airport and now we are going to figure out how we're going to get from here to there,"' Morrell told the St. Paul Pioneer Press by cell phone during the delay Saturday.

Eventually, the captain and first officer were replaced by a different Northwest crew for the short hop to the right airport.

Northwest confirmed that the crew made an "unscheduled landing."

"The situation is under review and we have nothing further to add," said Northwest spokesman Kurt Ebenhoch. He would not identify the cockpit crew, or say if the pilot made an error.

Ellsworth controls all air space 40 miles around the base and clears landings at both the civilian airport and the base.

The city's airport runway is "just over the hill" from Ellsworth, and the Northwest crew had to descend through a layer of clouds, said a base spokeswoman, Lt. Christine Millette.

The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating.
________________________________________________________________

I think I'll stay away from Northwest....... Weren 't a couple of theor pilots arrested for being caught drunk a couple of years back?

Mark

Posted by Nate Lehrke (Member # 1460) on 06-20-2004, 11:18 PM:

Why wouldn't the air force shoot that plane down? It was heading straight at em and they just let it land?

I love Northwest, they charge me twice the amount and give my crappy service! [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 06-21-2004, 07:18 AM:

In 1967, a pilot mistook the Ohio State University airport for Port Columbus and landed a 707 on the short runway. Very embarrassing for the old TWA airline, and a very quick termination of a pilot. To get it off the ground, they stripped everything out to lighten the plane, and they called in the airline's chief pilot to get the thing off the ground.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-21-2004, 08:01 AM:

Agreed with Nate on Northwest. I've used them once, on a flight from Minneapolis to Amsterdam, and once was enough. It left over an hour late 'because we had to finish off some paperwork', according to the captain. It then missed its landing slot at Schiphol and had to circle for ages, with the result that I missed my connection home. All in all I was delayed for the best part of a day. Furthermore the seats were ridiculously cramped (more so than on any other long-distance flight I've been on). And, despite the fact that I'd put on the 'special dietary requirements' form when booking the ticket that I was allergic to dairy fat, they didn't have anything to eat which didn't have cheese in it. That having been said, I suppose I should be grateful that it did eventually land at the right airport!

I'm hopefully going to Minneapolis again for a conference in November: on the basis of the last experience with them, I sure as hell hope that I don't get Northwest.

Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 06-21-2004, 11:57 AM:

All of my worst flying experiences have been aboard Northwest:

Chronically late flights,
Landing diversions,
Luggage "misplaced" for days,
Rude treatment,

Pretty much everything that can go wrong seems to do so regularly on Northwest.

Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 06-21-2004, 12:42 PM:

nice Northwest Story for your all....
I went to Europe with a school trip about 5 years ago and we flew from Tampa to Detroit and then Detroit to Amsterdam in Northwest/KLM. About 30 minutes in our Detroit-Amsterdam flight, we hear something loud pop and a few minutes later the captain came on and informed us that the Hydraulic pump had broken and we had to turn around and get a new plane...This was of course a 747-B400 ( think?) so we had to dump our fuel, I had the seat by the wing so it was cool to see that.

20 Minutes later we land...and I've never experience such a rough and long landing before...scared the [bs]

out of me. We had to wait on that plane (they fed us disgusting dinner) for another one. I didn't think to complain, but they didn't even as much offer us anything

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-21-2004, 02:10 PM:

I guess, then, that if you're doing that KLM/Northwest transatlantic route, the trick is to try and make sure that you're booked on a KLM rather than a Northwest. The Northwest plane I got was a clapped-out old DC-10 - you could even see the paint peeling off bits of it, which didn't exactly inspire confidence! The decor was distinctly 1970s, and the in-flight film was shown using an out-of-the-ark CRT video projector which was so dim and flickery you could hardly see a thing.

I've never had any problem with KLM, apart from that Amsterdam to Newcastle connection I missed. But that was hardly their fault, and they did as much as they could to solve the problem. That included standing me a taxi home from Newcastle airport (a distance of 85 miles), as the later flight arrived after the last train had gone. I've used their Newcastle/Leeds Bradford/Teesside to Amsterdam route several times since moving up here - it's always been 100% reliable and bang on time. There are always some giggles among the passengers when the captain says 'welcome on board this Fokker' or words to that effect, though...

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 06-21-2004, 05:01 PM:

NWA does seem to be having their problems of late. They are on the industry watch list to go TU soon along with several other US legacy carriers unless they are a, really lucky, and b, really careful. Delta, United, and US Air are all on the ropes financially too, and are not expected to survive long term.

Yeah, NWA had an incident a few years ago with a drunk crew. The flight crew had been seen slamming pitchers of rum & coke in the bar at the layover hotel until closing time, then went on to operate their early morning return flight (Fargo, ND back to NWA's home base MSP).

The FAA had been tipped off, and an air carrier inspector was waiting for them at the gate. He was new and had never seen a situation like this. After confronting the crew, he stepped off the aircraft to phone his bosses about what to do, during which time the crew buttoned up the airplane and departed! Of course there was a welcoming committee waiting for them at MSP.

At trial, the captain's defense was pretty brazen, claiming that since he was an alcoholic, he was fit to fly while under the influence. The judge didn't buy it. He got the ax and served jail time, but went through rehab and was eventually re-hired at NWA as a simulator instructor.

Over the years there have been some famous and funny incidents of airliners landing at the wrong airports. Usually this happens when a crew is trying to use visual approach procedures when operating in intermittent or marginal visual conditions, especially if the two airports are close to each other and have similar runway headings.

In the mid-80's I got to watch as a United B-747 crew tried to land at Hawthorne, CA (HHR) instead of LAX, which is about five miles further down Imperial Highway (there was no I-105 Century Freeway back then). They were a morning international arrival and probably fatigued after a long overnight flight across the pond. They were on a right base over the I-110 Harbor Freeway in marginal VFR conditions (3-5 miles visibility) trying to shoot the visual into LAX. When they spotted the sequenced strobes off to the right they turned inbound. Unfortunately those strobes were the ODALS for Hawthorne's runway 25 instead of the ALSFs for LAX's runway 25L or 25R. They finally caught on at about a mile out and went around in a low climbing left turn at TOGA power--right over my apartment. Even the best subwoofers got nuthin' on a front-row seat to a 747 go around performance. [Smile]

[ 06-28-2004, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Paul Mayer ]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-22-2004, 03:33 PM:

They caught a Virgin pilot at the bottle last winter:

quote:
A Virgin Atlantic pilot has been charged with trying to fly a plane packed with hundreds of passengers after drinking.

Captain Richard Harwell, 55, was arrested on Friday night shortly before he was due to fly thousands of miles across the Atlantic from Washington DC to Heathrow.

Captain Harwell, who is American but lives with his family in the UK, was held after airport staff allegedly detected alcohol on his breath as he underwent routine pre-flight security checks.

The 383 stranded passengers on board last night's flight VS22 were put up in hotels until a new crew could be found.

They are expected to fly out at 18.15 local time on Saturday night (2315 GMT), arriving on Sunday morning.

A spokeswoman for Dulles airport in Washington said security officials alerted a Virgin supervisor having observed Mr Harwell passing through the ticket counter area.

A Virgin Atlantic spokesman said Mr Harwell had been with the airline 14 years and had an "unblemished record".

He said: "Everyone at Virgin Atlantic is shocked and surprised. This is unprecedented - it's the first time it has happened in the 20 years we've been operating.

"We are at a loss to explain what has happened."

Virgin Atlantic told the BBC it operated a strict no-alcohol policy and an internal inquiry was being started.

Captain Harwell was escorted off the plane by Metropolitan Washington Airport Authority Police and charged with attempting to operate an aircraft while under the influence of alcohol.

A Virgin spokesman said he was still in custody and the issue of bail would be established later.

"We will be talking to him and the authorities over the coming weeks to find out what has happened," he added.

Stranded passenger Peter Markham told BBC News: "First we were told it was a security problem and then that catering services were a bit late.

"The passengers took that for a little while but eventually they began to realise there was more to it and Virgin Atlantic had to tell us what exactly was the problem, but it took a long time."

Virgin Atlantic spokesman Paul Moore said: "The safety and security of our passengers at Virgin Atlantic is our paramount priority."

Link.

Bizarre - further coveraged revealed that he had a reputation for hardly drinking at all, that he had no family problems, that he was apparently dedicated to his job - in short, there was no indication that he was a risk of doing that sort of thing. His trial has been set for August.

A month before that, they caught two BA pilots at it:

quote:
British Airways has suspended two pilots and a member of cabin crew suspected of being on duty after drinking. The pilot, co-pilot and head of cabin crew were arrested by police in Norway, ahead of an Oslo to Heathrow flight. BA said the trio could lose their jobs for gross misconduct and that it had a zero tolerance policy for alcohol.

The staff, who had been reported by colleagues, are in the UK awaiting the results of blood tests.

Norwegian police said the crew members had all failed breathalyser tests, shortly before their flight, BA 761, was due to leave Norway at 0445 GMT on Tuesday. The flight was cancelled and its 55 passengers transferred to a Scandinavian Airlines plane.

A BA spokeswoman said: "All three members of staff have been suspended. A formal disciplinary process has begun." She said it was a disciplinary offence for an employee to report for work drunk and that it can result in dismissal.

The spokeswoman said that if it was deemed that there is a case to answer, disciplinary hearings would take place within one week The trio also face the possibility of legal action in Norway, where air crew must adhere to the same alcohol laws as drivers.

Norwegian police said they would decide whether or not to take action after seeing the results of the blood tests, which are due back within two weeks. A spokesman said: "Our police lawyers are seeing if the case has to be dealt with here or if it is possible to hand it over to the English authorities."

Staff at Oslo Airport are also being interviewed about the alleged incident, he added.

The British Civil Aviation Authority said it could also decide to take action, depending on the route taken by BA and Norwegian police. It said: "We can withdraw pilots' medical certificates which would prevent them from flying."

BA said this was the fifth incident of its kind at the airline in the last six years. Captain Graeme Holden, of the Isle of Man, lost a claim for unfair dismissal in September, after BA dismissed him over a breach of its alcohol rules. Another pilot was sacked in February after being breathalysed before a flight from Sweden to London Heathrow.

The company's rules state crews should only consume alcohol in moderation in the 24 hours before reporting for duty. They should not consume any alcohol in the last eight hours, and have no alcohol left in their bloodstream when reporting for duty.

Civil Aviation Authority rules are less strict. They say aircrew cannot be on a plane or report for duty while drunk or under the influence of drugs, but there is no specified alcohol limit. A new limit of 20 mg per 100 ml of blood - a quarter of the drink driving limit - is contained in a law passed earlier this year, but a date for introducing the limit has yet to be set.

Few of the UK's 10,000 commercial pilots lose their licences because of alcohol offences. The number is only about 12 or 15 a year, and most of these are later reinstated.

Link.

Shortly after that there was an exposé TV documentary about pissed pilots, which revealed a hard core of morons, some of whom actually boasted that they could fly the planes better with a massive hangover!

I've done two trips on BA and - as with Northwest - wished I hadn't. Massive delays both times and they really acted like they couldn't care less. After having discovered that being a dipsomaniac is clearly a basic entry qualification for their pilot training programme, I don't think I'll be booking with them in a hurry, either.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 06-22-2004, 05:05 PM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
After having discovered that being a dipsomaniac is clearly a basic entry qualification for their pilot training programme, I don't think I'll be booking with them in a hurry, either.

Leo, you say that like being a dipsomaniac is a bad thing. [Big Grin]

Seriously, and fortunately, alcoholism amongst professional pilots is not as widespread as the stereotype (the same one that paints fighter pilots as hard drinkers) makes it out to be. Still, the image persists, and it's not altogether unwarranted. All airlines and pilot unions have zero tolerance for this sort of thing, as did all of the colleagues I had the privilege to fly with over the years. As stern as they are about drinking and flying, the airlines and the various pilot's unions (APA, ALPA, IALPA, SWAPA) are progressive enough in their thinking to have programs in place (e.g. the HIMS program) to rehabilitate these guys and get them back into service. The tremendous cost of grooming, training, and maintaining the typical airline captain pretty much demands that such programs be made available.

In 17 years of flying, I've been witness to only one such incident. The guy in question was an F/O (First Officer) who happened to be in my initial training class at Scenic Airlines. He was an ex-navy C-130 pilot building flight time like the rest of us, hoping to land a real flying job at a real airline someday. I flew in the simulator with him--he was a nice guy who got along well with everyone, that being the primary trait necessary to survive long enough in the business to make it to captain's school.

For some reason, one day he showed up looking like he had slept in his uniform (because he had, as we found out later). During the preflight checks, his captain smelled booze on the guy's breath. That pretty much ended the guy's career with Scenic right there, as he was a newbie F/O on new-hire probation. Scenic didn't have a HIMS program. At least the company didn't turn him in to the FAA--that would have meant the end of his certificate. Don't know if he ever cleaned up and got on with another carrier or not--the last I heard, he was selling textbooks to schools somewhere.

Posted by Daniel Alt (Member # 2303) on 06-28-2004, 08:04 PM:

My best flying story could never happen today, post 9/11.

When I was in high school, I was in the Maryland Youth Orchestra. We went on a playing tour of Spain, and returned KLM via Amsterdam. However, on the return leg, they lost my reservation. The orchestra manager threatened to pull the entire orchestra off the plane if they couldn't find somewhere for me to sit, since they understandably did not want to leave a minor behind in Spain.

So for the flight across the pond, I ended up in business class. (The only time I've ever flown higher than coach.)

But for the flight from Spain to Amsterdam? They put me in the jumpseat behind the pilots. It was truly an amazing experience. I got to watch them watch the autopilot fly the plane. I had a very nice conversation with the crew, and the copilot gave me his lunch, since there was no meal for me.

Like I said... it would never happen today.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 06-28-2004, 08:50 PM:

Odd that they wouldn't have just had you use one of the flight attendant's seats and have him or her sit in the cockpit during takeoff and landing. Your lucky day I guess.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-28-2004, 09:48 PM:

Some 20 years ago I boarded a small commuter plane for a flight from LAX to SNA (LA to Orange County). The flight was over-booked, and apparently overloaded. They asked for volunteers to get off the plane to lighten the load (presumably the problem was related to baggage). Well, nobody volunteered. This was mostly businessmen and they weren't about to get off the plane. The flight crew consulted for a few seconds, then closed the door and flew it anyway.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-28-2004, 10:09 PM:

These last posts raise some interesting questions: Daniel, which instrument did you play in the youth orchestra?
David, why would you fly from Los Angeles to Orange County? It the county next to LA, you could just drive anywhere there within 1 hour.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-28-2004, 10:44 PM:

I've known a few people thata hahvea flown in the jump seats on foreign bound flights. Also a late friend of mine that was a pilot many years ago flew a commuter run on the east coast had a flight with one person and that was Dudley Moore. He was invited to ride in the cockpit with the crew and did so. My buddy said he was a lot of fun on that flight.

Mark

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 06-29-2004, 12:37 AM:

quote: Michael Schaffer
David, why would you fly from Los Angeles to Orange County? It the county next to LA, you could just drive anywhere there within 1 hour.

Have you ever tried to drive from LA to Orange County? [Razz]

I say that, freely admitting that I've made fun of the people in OC getting on the plane to LAX.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-29-2004, 09:07 AM:

It was a business trip, and the company (located in Irvine) routinely flew us from Orange County so we wouldn't have to fight the traffic getting to and from LAX. Of course depending on where you were going and scheduling, you might have to go through LA. Like now I can't go anywhere from Eugene without going through SFO.

For a while there was a company doing daily scheduled helicopter flights between Disneyland and LAX. I got to fly that once, which was kind of cool.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-29-2004, 09:48 AM:

I've also flown from Orange County to LAX. It was a commuter flight that stopped at LAX on its way to another destination. Of course I had to change planes at LAX to get to Fresno.

Mark

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 06-29-2004, 10:48 AM:

There are some pretty amazing (to me anyway) short routes out there. TWA used to operate LAX to BUR in an MD-80 (DDT Douglas Death Tube). Another large carrier operated OAK to SFO in some non-commuter sized aircraft. Obviously these are staging flights or segments, part of a longer route going somewhere else. But it's fun to see these shorties posted in the flight schedule.

Back on topic, here's a candidate, reported on Airwise this morning:

Hawaiian Air Pilot Throws Off Bankruptcy Trustee

June 29, 2004

Discount air travel is a popular perk for most airline employees, but if you are running a bankrupt carrier, certain restrictions may apply.

Joshua Gotbaum, the trustee overseeing Hawaiian Airlines' reorganization, was thrown off a flight from Honolulu to San Francisco last Thursday by the pilot who said Gotbaum's presence made him uncomfortable.

"The pilot informed Mr. Gotbaum that he wasn't comfortable having him on the plane. They had a brief discussion, but rather than delay the flight, Mr. Gotbaum took another flight," airline spokesman Keoni Wagner said, without elaborating.

Federal policy gives pilots discretion to remove passengers or refuse to let them board for safety reasons, but they rarely do so.

"This was an isolated case of a pilot mistakenly thinking he had the right to pick and choose his passengers, when in fact he doesn't," Hawaiian President Mark Dunkerley said through a spokesman. "It's never happened before at Hawaiian, and I trust it won't happen again.

Hawaiian, which filed for bankruptcy in March 2003, has posted profits in recent months, helped in part by negotiating reduced airplane lease payments.

Gotbaum at one time changed the pilots' defined benefit pension plan, which is underfunded, to a defined contribution plan, but has since backed away from that proposal.

(Reuters)
#####

I suspect this pilot is going to be feeling really uncomfortable at his next six-month simulator check. I predict one hell of a checkride--there will be no survivors. [evil]

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 06-29-2004, 01:30 PM:

Fresno?! Nobody goes to Fresno anymore! [Razz]

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 06-29-2004, 03:30 PM:

Au contraire... There's Allegiant Air! [Big Grin]

Fresno, gateway to Bakersfield.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 06-29-2004, 04:55 PM:

Ya know Paul, everytime I see you post and read your sig, I think of this:

But! Since I have my 737 rating, I would still fly with you...but only after a night of partying! [Wink]

>>> Phil

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 06-29-2004, 07:52 PM:

Hey! Isn't that John Pytlak on the right? [Razz]

Looks like I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 06-29-2004, 08:01 PM:

Ya know Adam, I think you might be right. I can tell by his cuff LINKS! [Razz]

>>> Phil

Posted by Daniel Alt (Member # 2303) on 06-29-2004, 11:28 PM:

Steve:

The way this particular plane was set up, the jumpseat blocked the door to the cockpit. It would have been an enormous hassle for a flight attendant to get into and out of this seat to do their job. (why they didn't put me in a flight attendant seat, I don't know. No extras, perhaps?)

Oh, and I play French horn. (Horn, for all you non-American musicians)

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-29-2004, 11:38 PM:

Freedom Horn? [av=v]

Posted by Daniel Alt (Member # 2303) on 06-30-2004, 11:03 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Freedom Horn?

Yeah, yeah... tell me one I HAVEN'T heard. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 07-01-2004, 05:45 PM:

I've had resonably good luck with NWA. The landing into fargo a week ago was a bit touchy. Must have been a crosswind or something. I could feel the plane pitching to the right. The right landing gear touched down first, then the left. Then the nose touched down. Roughest landing I've ever been through. After we were on the ground the captain gets on the PA and says "ladies and gentlemen, we have landed". The passengers all laughed, nervously.

Josh

Posted by Rachel Gilardi (Member # 1016) on 07-01-2004, 06:26 PM:

You guys all suck. I'm getting on a NWA flight on Saturday to go home to Boston for a visit. I don't need to be reading about drunk pilots! [Razz]

Posted by Clint Koch (Member # 1179) on 07-01-2004, 06:38 PM:

Rachel, It is still the safest mode of travel.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-01-2004, 11:03 PM:

I agree with Josh.

Rach, I have always had great experiences on NW. Drunk pilots or not!

>>> Phil

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 07-02-2004, 12:37 AM:

Josh, the landing technique you describe is exactly what must be done during a crosswind landing, in your case a right crosswind apparently. Definitely fun on a gusty day!

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 07-02-2004, 01:06 AM:

quote: Clint Koch
Rachel, It is still the safest mode of travel.

That guy who mailed himself from NY to TX in a box arrived OK.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-05-2004, 05:12 PM:

...and most of the passengers on the Hindenburg got out alive, too. Have a good trip, Rachel!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-05-2004, 05:58 PM:

Ohhhhh, the humanity!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-05-2004, 06:40 PM:

Have a great trip chipper

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-05-2004, 08:59 PM:

Rachel...

FOr added protection...take some flying lessons from Red Skelton! [Big Grin]

Posted by Rachel Gilardi (Member # 1016) on 07-06-2004, 08:46 AM:

Ok, I'm here in Boston and was that the worst flight ever!

The cabin had to be at least 90 degrees when we got in (the plane was late) and at least 100 degrees by the time we landed.
There was turbulence the whole trip (which I know is not the pilots fault) Not to mention when the pilot landed the plane we were going down almost hitting the runway at a very odd angle. I swear it felt like we landed on one wheel and stayed there for quite a while before the other hit the ground, it really felt like we were tipping. It was bad enough that there were people in the plane screaming... Not me of course! [Wink]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 07-06-2004, 07:39 PM:

...and you all walked away alive. What's the problem? Assuming they can still use that A/C, it was actually a great landing.

quote: Article
A Northwest Airlines flight that was headed to Rapid City, South Dakota, landed a few miles off course at Ellsworth Air Force Base, and passengers had to wait in the plane for more than three hours while their crew was interrogated.

Passengers on Northwest Flight 1152, an Airbus A-319...

How the #$&% do you land a 319 at the wrong airport. Better yet, why was anyone in the front seats actually flying the aircraft? You'd think if the crew was going to pass time by flying the aircraft rather than playing cards that they'd pay some attention to where they were going. NWA crews should stick to just trying to find the right gate to pull up to and leave the landings to the back seat driver.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-06-2004, 07:43 PM:

Yeah Rach! Quit yur bitching! ANY landing ya can walk away from is a GOOD landing! [beer]

>>> Phil

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 07-06-2004, 08:20 PM:

Hot cabin, bumpy flight, one wheel landing...

Rach, that's every flight out here in the summer time. [Big Grin]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-08-2004, 07:04 PM:

If you're feeling newly emboldened after the trip into Boston, you could always try crossing the pond to Scotland and landing on Barra. It's the only airport handling scheduled flights in the world with a 'runway' on a beach. I once took off from it in a DHC-6 (having arrived on the island by ferry), and the spray which kicked up around the windows as it accelerated made it feel like being in a flying boat (not that I've ever been in a flying boat, though). You can walk on the runway area when it's not in use, and they raise a windsock above the terminal building to 'advise' you to get the hell out of the way when an arrival is imminent! You can see the tracks left by the landing gear of departing aircraft in the sand, which come to an abrupt stop at the point where they left the ground.

Per mile that was probably the most expensive flight I've ever done (£150ish for the one-way journey from Barra to Glasgow - must be less than 100 miles), but it was worth it for the novelty value alone.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-08-2004, 07:24 PM:

Why would there be any problem keeping the cabin cool once you're airborne? Isn't it friggin cold outside? What is the temperature of compressor bleed air?

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 07-08-2004, 09:48 PM:

Bleed air taken off the compressor stage is very very hot, so it needs to be run through a cooling stage (these days most commonly an ACM--Air Cycle Machine) to get it down to something humans can tolerate. Mix valves are used to mix bleed air with the output of the ACMs to regulate the cabin temperature. Hot days with long waits at idle power can lead to some warm cabin temps. Loss of an ACM or stuck mix valves can also cause a warm cabin.

The DHC-6 Twin Otter (a.k.a. the Barf Bag Bomber or the Kool Aid Bomber at Scenic) is unpressurized so the cabin can get pretty hot in the summer here unless the freon gods are smiling upon you. Even when the AC worked it was still pretty hot with 21 people stuffed in the cabin for those July and August afternoon tour flights. Cabin heat via bleed air is available when operating in Canada. [Smile]

[ 07-08-2004, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Paul Mayer ]