quote: Leo Enticknap

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Sticking the whole programme on my laptop as a DV file is not an option, as the hard disc isn't big enough.

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How much disk space would you need? External hard disks are getting very cheap. I've seen the LaCie 500 GB. one for not much more than three hundred pounds. It connects to Firewire 400 or 800, or USB 2. These thiings are very useful wth laptops.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-06-2004, 02:35 PM:
 
Interesting Manny, what kind of tapes/camera have you been using? Neither Joe or myself has seen any degredation of MiniDV tape over repeated uses (so far). Joe has been using a Canon XL1 and I have been using a Panasonic DVX-100. I use Panasonic tapes exclusively, but I think Joe has used just about every kind of tape in his.

Leo, I would use the tape first, DVD second and hard drive third. I have seen shows crash because they were played off of a laptop, and I have also seen DVDs glitch, even though the test screening went fine.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-06-2004, 02:45 PM:
 
No way to find a 16mm portable with a xenon, or Marc/Gemini illumination?
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-06-2004, 04:06 PM:
 
I don't know of anyone or anywhere in the locality which has one. All the cinemas in the region I can think of which do have 16mm use fixed-pedestal xenon machines (FPs or Fumeos, mainly). I strongly suspect that we would also have a lens hassle, given the throw length and screen size.

Thanks for the input, folks. Point taken about bringing backup copies of all media. I think what I'm going to do is to take both a DVD player and our little portable Mini DV VTR (a really useful thing about the size of two transistor radios with a small TFT screen built in), see which looks best and use that one as first choice with the other as backup.

Brad: I know all about glitches when playing out from a laptop. I was once giving a presentation to some students and had failed to realise that I'd accidently pulled the power supply transformer out of the back of it. Midway through the proceedings the 'low battery' warning dialogue popped up. The process of getting rid of it revealed the Windows wallpaper file - a frame grab from the Pulp Fiction DVD showing Zed and Maynard having fun with Samuel L. Jackson in the cellar! Thank goodness the audience wasn't a group of schoolkids...
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-06-2004, 06:22 PM:
 
Rent a digibeta machine from your local broadcast equipment rental company, and feed component (Y, R-Y, B-Y) to the projector. It will look much better than any of that over-compressed-crap.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-06-2004, 07:17 PM:
 
I don't know about over there but here a Digi-Beta deck from a rental house will set you back at least US$500 a day.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-07-2004, 06:06 AM:
 
We'd pay around that figure too, and the venue isn't willing to hire in any kit for this show. Neither Mini DV nor DVD is anywhere near ideal, but they look like the only two feasible options given the kit and budget available.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-07-2004, 09:00 AM:
 
I'd agree with the "rent a Digi-Beta deck" crowd. Around here, one can get a Sony J-3 (plays several formats, but doesn't have component output--only SVHS and composite) for about $300 per day. The full-size DVW-A500 is more like $500, but does have component out.

I've generally had bad luck with burned DVD-Rs for festival screenings. I haven't dealt much with Mini-DV or DVCAM, but those formats seem rather flimsy and there may be some compatability issues between decks (especially with the "long play" mode on consumer-grade equipment). Beta SP and Digi-Beta are rock solid.

If the show is important, it's worth blowing $300 to ensure that something won't go wrong.

If that really isn't an option, run both the DVD and the Mini DV tape more-or-less in sync, so that if there is a problem you can switch from one to the other in a few seconds mid-show.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-07-2004, 11:31 AM:
 
The various J series decks can have different video outputs depending on what options one gets. However...none of the J series decs has digital audio out...that one I don't get...with a digital deck, one would think that having a digital output would be standard. Also, the J series only has two audio outputs which I believe can be selected to either channels 1 and 2 or channels 3 and 4.

Steve
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-07-2004, 04:21 PM:
 
For those of you burning DVDs for festival screenings....

*Use only Ritek or Pioneer media. This media NEVER fails.
*Get yourself a known (recent) quality DVD player. I can vouch for the $75 Panasonic line of "no frills" players as being able to tackle ANYTHING thrown at it...even burns on $0.25 media!

Panasonic DVDS25K
Panasonic DVDS27K

If you are looking for a DVD player of very high quality without spending hoards of money that will also play anything thrown at it, Vinc makes a great players.

Vinc model D1
Vinc model D2

Personally, I have the D1 and prefer it over the D2 because you have menu navigation built into the front panel. The only thing NOT accessible from the front panel is the actual "menu" button itself. You have to have the remote for that.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 09-07-2004, 05:17 PM:
 
I would say take care with cheap software, some of which seems to produce DVDs which are not qute standard, and cause problems with some players.

If creating a disc for a cinema style screening, keep it simple, avoid multiple titles, menus and any other features that you won't use for such a screening.

Never assume that any disc will play correctly on any player; always play the entire programme through on the actual player to be used, before the show.

I've no experence wth any digital tape formats, though I have used a great many different analogue ones, from 2" Quad down to 1/4" Akai reel to reel.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-07-2004, 06:26 PM:
 
If you are looking for an industrial DVD player that plays practically everything under the sun (but only a 480i output in RGBcvS or YPbPr and S-Video and composite...nice for having a composite preview whilst having either component or RGB for the display), I like the MarantzPro PMD-930. It is region free and has a 45000 hour drive life.

MarantzPro PMD-930

Steve
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-07-2004, 07:46 PM:
 
What's the street price on that Steve? The Vinc units have DVI output and although I don't know the rated drive lifespan, they are cheap enough to throw away and buy another one if/when they die.
 

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Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 09-07-2004, 08:04 PM:
 
Looks like the street price in the US is going around $650 for it.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-07-2004, 08:10 PM:
 
That's not worth it to me. I'd rather buy two of the Vinc units and have one sitting on a shelf (or on standby in the rack) as a backup and still save money. The DVI output is the big thing anyway.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-07-2004, 08:33 PM:
 
It really depends on your application Brad. DVI is nearly worthless for most of my installs. Region-free, reliable and RS-232 controllable are big features (not to mention the included rack mount). Believe it or not, the fact that it will output both Composite and Component at the same time is a big plus since that allows a preview monitor for cueing up witout hampering the high-quality display feed.

In the home, I could definately see the Vic, especailly if your display device has a DVI port.

Steve
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-07-2004, 09:25 PM:
 
I also stay away from Crestline / AMX type of products as a general rule, so that's probably a big part of it as well.
 

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Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 09-07-2004, 09:54 PM:
 
If anyone is looking for a cheap multi region player that does pal great, check at the Daewoo 9200 at Target for $49. It's progressive player I guess, but I have a regular tv and just use it for some Pal horror imports, and so far it plays them great.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 09-07-2004, 10:26 PM:
 
Verbatim media, BTW, is THE media. I've never had any problems with any of their media. In fact, they are often the ones who design the manufacturing processes that others use to manufacture media.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-08-2004, 02:28 AM:
 

quote: Stephen Furley

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If creating a disc for a cinema style screening, keep it simple, avoid multiple titles, menus and any other features that you won't use for such a screening.

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I don't normally create any menus at all. If it's a continuous programme I'd stick 5 seconds of black on the front of the MPEG stream (to give the projectionist time to pause it after the disc has loaded) and set that stream as the 'first play' item. Only if two different programmes need to be played at different stages in the show would I create a menu: and that would simply have 'click here to play this item' icons.

Point taken about digibeta being vastly superior: but sadly, we're simply not in a position to subsidise individual shows with one-off kit hire unless either the venue is willing to do it or we can secure external funding, neither of which applies in this case.

As for DVD media, I generally use TDK or Verbatim as 'full price' options, and haven't had a failure yet - including one which I once put on a table next to a computer temporarily (reading side up), wondered what the hell had happened to it and discovered two hours later that the cat had sat on top of it and gone to sleep.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-08-2004, 04:28 AM:
 
Brad it is near impossible to stay away from Crestron or AMX when doing serious automated rooms with video. Most matrix video switchers are near unusable without some sort of controller. With a Crestron or AMX...it is one-button shopping to have any device play out of any device.

For a movie theatre, the are not needed, however. Even the video systems for theatres are relatively simple. Then again, the AFI/Silver would be impossible to run without its Crestron system...then again, it isn't the typical movie theatre.

Steve
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-08-2004, 06:42 AM:
 
Sorry Steve, I've seen too many failures and too much poor programming on AMX/Crestron's part to give them another chance unless there was absolutely no other way to make it work. I've done some fairly complicated multi format setups and believe me, you CAN find another way to do just about everything that is 100% reliable all of the time and doesn't require an AMX/Crestron tech to repair.

Simple is better.

Daryl, I've never even seen Vertabim DVD-Rs. I have also never made a coaster out of Ritek or Pioneer media, nor have I found a DVD player that wasn't happy playing it. Are the Verbatims supposed to have a longer shelf life?
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-08-2004, 11:06 AM:
 
Brad,

I have no doubt that you and Joe have had wonderful experiences with your cameras and tapes. That is wonderful news and I hope you guys continue to enjoy success. I would simply attribute your success and Joe's to luck-of-the-draw and, perhaps, comparatively limited experience with the format.

Based on my experience shooting well over 200 hours of footage and producing 2 features, 2 documentaries, 2 concerts, about a dozen commercials and over 20 hours of television product...

1. Data dropouts right out of the camera.
2. Data dropouts over time. In other words the tape *was* perfect a year ago and now it won't playback. (Sometimes if you have enough machines you might get lucky and find one that will playback.)
3. Inability to play certain tapes in certain machines, which is why I would not rely on DV tape as the principal medium for an important screening.

These problems are not unique to my experience nor are they "user failure" problems. The DV format has opened many doors for independent producers and is definitely a "good thing." But the truth is that it is an imperfect format. My negative experiences have been shared by others. In addition, it is widely known that you cannot record in LP mode and expect other machines to playback -- this is actually printed in instruction manuals. That is a serious flaw in the design of the format; any miniDV tape should playback in any unit bearing the miniDV logo regardless of tape speed. Added to which, the tape and cassette are teenie-tiny making them (and the data) VERY susceptible to damage.

I have used miniDV media by Sony and Panasonic. Both cameras are Canon GL-1. I also have a Sony GVD300 deck. Most times everything works fine but certainly not 100% of the time.

I owned an XL-1 initially but then sold it after comparing the image between it and the GL-1. To my eye, the GL-1 produces a better image.

Right now I'm in college but I will be capturing direct-to-disk when I start producing again.

[ 09-08-2004, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Manny Knowles ]
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-08-2004, 12:57 PM:
 
The only reason we use Mini DV at all is that a significant number of people who license archive footage from us ask for it in that format. They are mostly working on non-profit projects (e.g. museums making videos for sale in their gift shops, that sort of thing) or corporate videos. Digibeta is our principal format, and the one we would always 'proactively' telecine to - i.e. if we anticipate that film material we acquire will see significant use on video and therefore decide to transfer it in advance of a specific access request. We'd copy from the digibeta to Mini DV on request, or for more rarely used film material we'd telecine direct to Mini DV. We certainly don't treat Mini DV as a preservation medium unless the content was originated on this format. In any other scenario it's for access only. Agreed with Manny that the cassettes are very fragile and flimsy, and I always feel a sigh of relief when one threads successfully after inserting it in a VTR.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-08-2004, 03:05 PM:
 
Manny, I've heard those horror stories over and over about the DV format. I was only stating that Joe and I have yet to see it happen (and yes my fingers are crossed. )

Just for kicks, I took a DV tape backup of that Omni video tour that was edited on Joe's computer back in 2000 out and tried to play it today. No problems at all. Recorded on his XL1, played back on my DVX100. (I still keep "data" backups on hard drive and DVD media though, because I don't trust the tapes for archival purposes.)

We're just lucky people.
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-08-2004, 05:44 PM:
 
DV stands for Damaged Video. Compressed, and croma bandwidth limited.
 

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Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 09-13-2004, 01:49 PM:
 
Yup Chroma bandwidth limited. If everything else were equal between DVD and DV, your choice is:

Both formats throw away 75 percent of the color.

Do you want 50 percent thrown away in the vertical direction and 50 percent thrown away in the horizontal direction? If so, go with DVD.

Do you want 75 percent thrown away in the horizontal direction? If so, go with DV.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-13-2004, 02:08 PM:
 
All the material being shown is b/w, so thankfully that isn't an issue. I've arranged to visit the place in a fortnight's time and play around - I'll let you know what gives. Thanks for everyone's suggestions.
 

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