This is topic Really REALLY EZ Pass (AKA: Product protects license plates from being photographed) in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-14-2004, 09:15 AM:
Have you guys seen this photoblocker spray? It's pretty cool. Check out this video...
http://www.phantomplate.com/videos/hinted_nbc_baltimore_dsl.mov
Edit: Gee, Joe, sorry for making you feel teased. I meant to tease Phil.
[ 12-14-2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Mark J. Marshall ]
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-14-2004, 12:37 PM:
It will be really REALLY EZ 2 BAN u if u don't take care of the teaser subject. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-14-2004, 02:37 PM:
WOO HOO! E-pass lane, here I come!!
Seriously, though. For the legal-minded (like me) I have had several instances where the damn coin basket didn't count my change correctly and I was forced to go through the toll. Mind you, I PAID the toll, but it took my picture... Week later I get a threatening letter warning me that my next "violation" will result in a $100 ticket. There was a number to call and explain, but will they listen and take the violation off my record? Of course not. Will they give me my money back for all the times I had to continue throwing quarters in until it registered? Hell no.
The People need to take Freedom into their own hands and buy this product.
In the words of a prominent African American recording artist, "Fuk Da Po-lice!" ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
=TMP=
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-14-2004, 03:42 PM:
That's what happens when you pay with pennies.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-14-2004, 04:22 PM:
Easy... Don't go through!
Just sit there. Put the car in park and wait till somebody comes to fix the broken machine. If somebody doesn't come to help, blow the horn.
If the person behind you gets impatient, it's not YOUR problem!
If traffic is backed up for 10 miles on the highway, it's not YOUR fault!
If they don't fix the machine, it's THEIR problem.
You are just "obeying the law". ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-14-2004, 06:55 PM:
quote: Randy Stankey
Easy... Don't go through!
Just sit there. Put the car in park and wait till somebody comes to fix the broken machine. If somebody doesn't come to help, blow the horn.
Right on Randy! I used to do that when I had coin counter trouble on the Illinois Tollway. They have a person there that comes over to assist you because they have gates there.
Mark
Posted by Rachel Gilardi (Member # 1016) on 12-14-2004, 09:24 PM:
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Right on Randy! I used to do that when I had coin counter trouble on the Illinois Tollway. They have a person there that comes over to assist you because they have gates there.
Speaking of the Illinois tollway, I got stuck in Chicago at one of those damn toll booths. I put my change in and it didn't register, by that point I was already pulled up to the gate. I got out of my car and put more change in, it still didn't register so I got back in my car and me and the people behind me just held the horns down for about 5 minutes until someone opened the gate. How irritating.
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-14-2004, 09:59 PM:
Easy solution for the reflective spray: Eliminate the flash and design the camera so none is needed. OR...relocate the flash away from the camera.
The spray probably creates a retroreflective effect where light is reflected directly back towards the source rather than the normal reflection where angle of incidence = angle of reflection. Retroreflection is what a vehicle reflector does and it's also what materials like 3M Scotchlite™ (used for road signs etc.) do. If you move the flash head away from the camera the light reflected back towards the light source won't be seen as glare by the camera
Careful selection of the flash location would eliminate the camera being blinded by retroreflective glare and also not receive glare from conventional reflection.
Bottom line: Don't get your hopes up.
I'm all for Photocop for people running red lights as long as it goes after only the most egregious violators (people entering the intersection after the light is red, not those who squeak through on yellow and have it change to red after they're in the intersection). Or people who drive around railroad crossing gates. I don't like the idea of Photocop for speed enforcement, a violation that mostly endangers just the driver.
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 12-14-2004, 11:02 PM:
doesn't the license plate photography rely on retroreflection in the first place? the background retroreflects but the numerals don't. so to get the best image of an untampered plate, the flash needs to be near the camera to capture that contrast. maybe in the daytime, a good shot could be obtained without retroreflection, but it's probably necessary at night.
carl
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-14-2004, 11:13 PM:
In Pennsylvania, at least, there is a law that makes it illegal to obscure your license plate. Even if it's just because some dirt or some snow got on there. The driver is responsible for making sure.
Just this evening there was a news story on TV that said the cops were going to start busting people with snow on their plates.
I'd say that this stuff obscures the license plate and would therefore be illegal. At least it would be in Pennsylvania. I'm sure other states have the same or similar laws.
Furthermore, I'd put forth that this stuff has no purpose but to make it easier for people to break the law. If you don't run red lights; if you don't skip toll booths; if you don't exceed the speed limit you have no reason to fear that some automatic device will take a picture of your license plate. Therefore, if you put this stuff on your license plate, the ONLY reason is because you PLAN to break the law.
On top of that, somebody who planned to commit some other crime like robbing a bank could use it to make it harder for the police to track his car.
So... There are THREE reasons why it should be illegal. Even if it's not specifically illegal right now, the "obscuration rule" would make it indirectly illegal.
Now, as Steve pointed out, I don't think it would work in all situations. First, in bright daylight the camera wouldn't need flash. No flash = no retroreflection. The camera would get a perfect picture regardless. Even if flash was used I'd think that, if the ambient light was sufficient to get a good picture the effect would be minimal.
Second, as Steve said, putting the flash at another angle from the camera would cure the problem all togehter, whether the flash is used or not.
Third, I think those red light cams take multiple exposures. As the car moves through the camera's field of view its position changes within the film frame. If the camera took, say, 4 exposures, alternating flash and no flash, chances would be pretty high that at least ONE of them would come out. Even then, a PARTIAL plate number might be enough to pin down the registration.
Fourth, identifying marks on the car would give it away. How many white Mazda 626's with fake bullet hole stickers on the trunk that have a dented in rear passenger door are registered in Erie, Pennsylvania? How many white Mazdas are there with those markings and a plate that starts with the letters "ENC-????" are there in all of Pennsylvania. (In the entire world?) Probably only one... The one that's registered to ME.
I already counted two or three ways they could bust you for this stuff. On top of that, they'd throw the book at you for whatever other crimes you commit while you are in posession of an adulterated license plate. (It's obvious that the act was WILLFUL and PREMEDITATED.) Then they'd probably dream up some charge like, "Willful Evasion of the Law", or some cockemamie thing like that.
This junk smells like bad Ju-Ju to me!
Man! If you ever get caught with this stuff on your license plate, you'll probably find yourself so far up Shit Creek that a paddle wouldn't do you any good even if you DID have one!
Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 12-14-2004, 11:29 PM:
Red light cameras (at least here in AZ) take 4 exposures, 1 from the front and 1 from the back, each about 1 second apart.
Posted by Ben Holley (Member # 2247) on 12-14-2004, 11:50 PM:
does this stuff wash off in the rain?
i would buy this stuff if it was a little cheaper, not that i run redlights but i still dont trust those camera's to not snap a picture of when you cut a yellow light a little to close.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-15-2004, 01:33 AM:
It's basically clear spray paint. It won't wash off.
That also means you can't UNDO it. If you put it on and later you decide it's a stupid idea (Which it is) you can't get it off. If this stuff turns out to be illegal and a cop catches you with it, you're toast. Even if all you wanted to do was just to "check it out".
Remember this: Red light cam's don't take pictures of innocent people.
1) They are aimed at the center of the intersection where you SHOULDN'T BE if the light is red.
2) They are not tripped unless your car crosses the inductive loop in the pavement.
3) If I remember my traffic rules correctly, a YELLOW light means, "Don't enter the intersection! But, if you are ALREADY passed the white line, keep going." If the light turns red while you are inside the "box" you are technically in violation of the rules.
The only real defence against a red light cam is to prove that this really wasn't your car or that the camera malfunctioned. If the camera malfunctioned, it will be clear because the traffic light in question is always inside the frame of the camrea.
If the judge holds up a picture of your car and says, "Is this your car?" There are only two things that can save you:
1) "No, sir. That's not my car."
2) "Yes, sir but, as you can see in the picture, the light is green."
Thus, in the eyes of the red light cam, there is no such thing as "cutting it close".
Don't cross that white line when your're not supposed to and you won't get in trouble. Plain and simple.
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 12-15-2004, 01:40 AM:
quote: Randy Stankey
a YELLOW light means, "Don't enter the intersection! But, if you are ALREADY passed the white line, keep going."
how good are your brakes?
Posted by Michael Gonzalez (Member # 593) on 12-15-2004, 02:46 AM:
SALE CONDITIONS FOR PHOTOBLOCKER PRODUCT
1. This product is only for UK inland sale - we will not ship this to Northern Ireland, Scottish Highlands or any international destination.
2. The product is for off road use only and is of novelty value only. It may be illegal to use this product on the road.
3. This product is excluded from any 12 month manufacturer warranty.
4. The 7 day money back guarantee only applies to unused cans which are in "as new" condition.
5. Upon purchasing this product, the customer becomes responsible for any legal implications as a result of the use or misuse of this product.
6. There is no guarantee that this product will stop you getting a speeding ticket.
7. It is illegal to tamper or interfere with your vehicle number plate.
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 12-15-2004, 03:01 AM:
And since when were the Scottish Highland NOT 'UK Inland'?!!
This sort of thing winds me up, try getting a courier to take projector parts up here (I'm not in the Highland region) on a next day delivery. Not a hope.
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-15-2004, 04:53 AM:
Look on the bright side - at least you're not in the Western Isles, Orkney or Shetland. The cost of courier-ing anything there must be astronomical.
Posted by Thomas King (Member # 2745) on 12-15-2004, 05:16 AM:
If you're running yellow lights two close, you deserve a fine.
(I'm a pedestrian, you know).
Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 12-15-2004, 07:21 AM:
Hahahahah that stupid spray! They did a test on a Current Affair in Austrlia and showed how it DOES NOT WORK! Sure it works when the picture is normal, but they made it into a negative or something and adjusted the levels from the photo and BINGO they got the number. Now I work for the company that fixes the Photovixes which are what are used to read the negs from the cameras, I should try it one day!
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-15-2004, 09:38 AM:
quote: Carl Martin
how good are your brakes?
Obviously not as good as your accelerator pedal!
Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-15-2004, 08:21 PM:
quote: Randy Stankey
That also means you can't UNDO it. If you put it on and later you decide it's a stupid idea (Which it is) you can't get it off. If this stuff turns out to be illegal and a cop catches you with it, you're toast. Even if all you wanted to do was just to "check it out".
Not necessarily true. If you can proove you purchased the product before it became illegal by means of a receipt or credit card statement, a good lawyer might get you off. If they want to confiscate the can, I think they have to pay you for it too. Ex Post Facto law or something.
=TMP=
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-15-2004, 09:04 PM:
My guess is that the stuff is made of clear lacquer that's been impregnated with glass beads or something. Once it's sprayed on, it probably can't be removed unless you risk removing the paint underneath. THAT's what I mean that you can't undo.
IF you get stopped AND you can prove that you did this before a given law came into affect then, I agree. It would be an Ex Post Facto law. However, that doesn't mean they can't nab you for something else!
I can virtually guarantee that there is a law in every state to the effect that you can't alter or your license plate. They could grab you on that. Then they could make you turn in your old license plate and get a new one. Then they could make you pay all the associated fees and fines involved in replacing an adulterated plate. If I memory serves, I believe the license plate on your car remains the property of the state. At least they can make you surrender it on demand, even if that's not true.
If they want your ass, they'll think up SOMETHING to nail you with!
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-16-2004, 10:50 AM:
I would think this would be somewhat visible to the eye, depending on the angle of the sun, etc.
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-16-2004, 01:54 PM:
quote: Steve Kraus
depending on the angle of the sun, etc.
Hmm. Makes me wonder how much of a hazard it could be at say reflecting headlights back at the driver behind you.
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-16-2004, 02:47 PM:
quote: Randy Stankey
Easy... Don't go through! Just sit there. Put the car in park and wait
NO! You pull through, pull over to the shoulder, park, and get it settled if you are so inclined. GO!! Don't hold a hundred people up and create a traffic jam (or a bigger jam) because of your misfortune.
This is what causes a lot of traffic tie-ups and accidents; people who think they're the only ones on the road, and give no thought or consideration to what's behind them.
Here's something else that causes me to lay on my air horn... people who DON'T READ SIGNS and follow an EZ-PASS lane all the way to the booth, where they STOP and wonder what to do (or, worse, try to BACK UP!). The western spur of the Jersey Turnpike, outside NYC, has high-speed EZ-PASS lanes. You go through at 55 mph, and the cash people have to stop and go through the toll plaza on the right. For TWO MILES big signs say, "EZ-PASS only, left lanes. Tickets, right lanes", then, "EZ-PASS ONLY, left lanes", and "EZ-PASS ONLY". Don't you know, nearly everytime I go through there, there's some dumb SOB BACKING UP on the freakin' freeway, creating a dangerous condition, because he can't pay attention!!! ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
And, speaking of EZ-PASS... they DO clock your speed going through there. I found this out the hard way. The speed limit in PA (and on the George Washington Bridge) is only 5mph through the standard EZ-PASS toll booth lanes, and I used to take my 75' tractor-trailer through there at 35 sometimes (watch those mirrors!!). I just figured the speed limit was because that's what the equipment needed to work - to read the transponders - and since I kept getting green lights, I figured it was working and kept going through faster and faster. Then, one day, I started getting "Call EZ-PASS" lights. They'd suspended my transponder! My company got another one for me, but now I never go more than 5 over the posted.
Although, one day, I'd love to blow through at about 70! I know I could do it and not hit anything.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-16-2004, 06:43 PM:
The cell phone jammers on that site are far more interesting!
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-16-2004, 10:22 PM:
Colorado Springs is lousy with traffic cameras. They're all over the place. At any significant intersection, there's at least four of them pointing into the intersection. Some are the type that bust you for running red lights. Some merely watch traffic levels to allow manual adjustment of green light and red light times. Others are there for things like accidents and road conditions. The trouble is you can't tell them apart. They all look the same. I think the ones in this photo are for busting red light runners. They're pointed down into the intersection.
As far as I know, Oklahoma has no red light traffic cameras in use...yet. I would expect that to change fairly soon, especially up in Tulsa. Certain intersections in Tulsa (specifically along Memorial Road) often appear in top 10 lists of most dangerous intersections in the United States.
Oklahoma does have lots of automatic cameras installed at all the toll booths along the state's turnpikes. Most take at least two exposures. One of the vehicle plate and another of the vehicle's front, which often shows you behind the wheel.
quote: Thomas King
If you're running yellow lights two close, you deserve a fine (I'm a pedestrian, you know).
If you're walking across the street while the light is turning yellow for the direction of traffic, you deserve fine. You're jay-walking. And you may be suicidal (at least you would be here in Oklahoma).
quote: Tim Reed
EZ-PASS only, left lanes. Tickets, right lanes
Yeah. Automated toll tags are pretty nice...if you're on a turnpike where your pass works. In Oklahoma, the OTA has its Pike Pass system that works statewide. And you really need one if you're going to drive on the turnpikes here since many toll booths are automated/unmanned. The new H.E. Bailey Turnpike spur off I-44 going to Norman has no attendants at its toll booths. You can pay in exact change or hit the Pike Pass lanes. Each exact change lane has a bill changer. But what if you have pesky bills that won't work or the changer has no more change? You're stuck.
My Oklahoma Pike Pass looks kind of like a bar of soap on my windshield. And it's about as good as that if I'm driving on toll roads in Texas. Talk about a growing clusterf**k in the making. Texas has at least two or three different toll tag systems for highways in Houston, Dallas-Fort Worth and Austin. Why not have at least a statewide standard? With more states having to build toll roads for highway expansion, the need really exists for a national standard of pass that works on any turnpike. I'd like to be able to use the same pass on the Kansas Turnpike if I drive to Wichita, or the Creek Turnpike in Tulsa, or the Bush Tollway north of Dallas. Who wants to keep multiple turnpike tags or worry about having the right amount of change on hand when driving? I'm sure truckers would love a national standard for 'pike passes.
Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 12-17-2004, 02:20 AM:
quote: Tim Reed
This is what causes a lot of traffic tie-ups and accidents; people who think they're the only ones on the road, and give no thought or consideration to what's behind them.
And that's not just observational. All traffic studies point out that it's not so much that speed that is a causal factor in crashes, it's that differences in speed that are dangerous. In countries where speed limits are *much* higher, accidents are fewer, because flow is managed by enforcing laws that traffic is to stay to one side except when overtaking. You can see these accidents starting to occur on US interstates when 2 vehicles, both traveling 5 or 10 mph below the limit, are side by side on a two-lane & traffic is bunching up behind them. One dog running out, spilled coffee, fooling with the radio, etc., & it's mass destruction. Those are the SCARIEST traffic situations to be in.
quote: Tim Reed
Here's something else that causes me to lay on my air horn... people who DON'T READ SIGNS
I always thought they just COULDN'T. You can tell all the people on their way to remedial reading classes, because they aren't able to read the signs that say KEEP RIGHT EXCEPT TO PASS, SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT, MAINTAIN SPEED, etc. It wouldn't be very charitable to assume that they're just inconsiderate, oblivious, & wilfully dangerous.
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-17-2004, 06:08 PM:
quote: Bobby Henderson
I'm sure truckers would love a national standard for 'pike passes.
It's getting better. EZ-PASS works over several states here in the northeast.
I have 3 transponders on my windshield: EZ-PASS, Oklahoma Turnpike, and Pre-Pass (to bypass certain weigh stations/weigh-in-motion); and about 5 different toll road credit cards. But, it's better than having to pay it out of my pocket and get reimbursed later.
Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 12-18-2004, 09:29 AM:
It seems to have well established at many northern Va. intersections where red light cameras have been installed that the yellow light has been reduced to slightly more than a blink, thus enhancing revenues. The handling of photos and equipment installztion is done by a private company that works with local cops and receives a small percentage of each fine collected. Authorities say there's nothing wrong with this!
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-19-2004, 10:42 AM:
As far as I know, red-light and speed cameras aren't legal (or, at least, aren't used) in Massachusetts. This is a Good Thing. I remember the uproar when the red-light cameras were first introduced in the Washington, DC area in the mid-1990s.
On the topic of EZ-PASS, the Massachusetts Turnpike uses something called "Fast Lane," which uses transponders which work with EZ-PASS (and vice-versa). I believe that the EZ-PASS transponder is free, while the Fast Lane version requires payment of a fee; on the other hand, the Mass. Pike gives a discount to Fast Lane users. I don't have either one and once drove through a Fast Lane lane to see what would happen (this was soon after the system was introduced). A few weeks later, I got a mailing which included a B&W computer printout of a low-res photograph of my license plate. The letter that came with it basically said that, if I were to drive through a Fast Lane again with that plate number, I would be fined $50. The first one was free.
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-19-2004, 12:06 PM:
That's funny! I've spotted the cameras at toll booths. But I'm still trying to figure out what the illuminated heat-gun-looking things are, that are located close to road level as you drive out of the booth?
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-19-2004, 12:20 PM:
quote: Scott Norwood
As far as I know, red-light and speed cameras aren't legal (or, at least, aren't used) in Massachusetts.
I wouldn't doubt that, being a "People's Republic" and all but from my understanding, the theory that makes it possible for red light cams & other automatic devices to be installed is that they aren't activated unless somebody breaks the law.
BTW: The comment I made about not going through a toll booth and backing up traffic was meant to dramatize a point. In other words, you shouldn't get worried about other people behind you. Take care of your own business first. Then worry about other cars. (Up to a point.) I wouldn't sit at a broken toll machine for more than a minute or so. After that, like Tim said, I'd probably pull over to the side... and complain like hell!
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-19-2004, 12:36 PM:
Tim--I think those things are just PAR-type fixtures that contain lightbulbs. The cameras look to be of the "security camera" type, which capture a video image which is (presumably) captured by the computer when it detects that someone has driven through without paying or without a transponder. I suppose that they might be IR cameras instead, but the pic they sent me looked pretty standard. Presumably, they either have some way to OCR the plate numbers or someone manually inputs the plate number into the database.
I have been generally boycotting the Mass. Pike as much as possible since they doubled tolls a year or two ago to pay for their mismanagement of the Big Dig project. Originally, the tolls were supposed to go away (by law!) when the cost of building the road was payed off--which should have been sometime in the early 1980s. Of course, the tolls haven't gone away and, in fact, keep increasing.
Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-19-2004, 12:51 PM:
I always thought those "heat guns" at the toll booths were the things that shined a BRIGHT light on your plate. People go through tolls all the time here (Waiting to put in coins I always hear 3 or 4 buzzers going off) but I never see a "flash" from the camera. I think the bright light solves the need for one.
Scott -- It's the same situation here. The "East/West Expressway" was completed in 1988 I believe, and the tolls were supposed to go away once it was paid for, ten years later.
Well, the time came to remove the tolls, so they held a city council meeting for a proposal to keep the tolls to fund "other road projects" and the dumbass citizens of this city agreed. Where did the money go? TO ADD MORE TOLL BOOTHS! The traffic problem in this city would be **ELIMINATED** if they lifted the toll on that damn road.
Same thing with the Florida Turnpike. The road was almost paid for, so what did they do? Renamed it the Ronald Reagan Turnpike and raised the tolls. Well, at least his legacy lives on. ![[puke]](graemlins/puke.gif)
=TMP=
Posted by Scott D. Neff (Member # 185) on 12-20-2004, 03:03 PM:
The toll on the Golden Gate Bridge was supposed to last until the bridge was paid off. Apparently that happened like 20 years ago and now they're charging us $5.00 every time we want to go into San Francisco. And they're talking about raising it.
Checking out the website just now on the history of the toll on the GGB, they used to do crazy stuff like they were a movie theatre or something.
$2.00 on Friday & Saturdays, $1.00 Sun-Thu.
I'm surprised they didn't have a discount Tuesday where all cars were $0.50.
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