This is topic Free To Air (FTA) Satellite receivers, Anyone getting their Premium TV via satellite? in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 01-10-2005, 04:34 PM:
 
Hi Guys,
A friend hooked me up with a FTA satellite receiver for Christmas!

This thing is SWEET!!! Just flash and go!
No cards needed!
I am just learning how to get the most out of this system, and I was wondering if any other members are also using them
to receive their favorite Preimum channels for free?

If you have any experience, please let me know,
Erick

[ 12-05-2005, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: Erick Akers ]
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-10-2005, 05:05 PM:
 
Pay channels for free? What sounds illegal about this?
 

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Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 01-10-2005, 05:43 PM:
 
quick search on google turned up this...

http://www.wickonline.com/fta.htm

from this and other sites...it seems like it's the Satellite version of Ham-radio. Other sites claim it's in HD (or at least some channels).
 

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Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 01-10-2005, 06:06 PM:
 
Brad,
So far, it is totally legal.
this is an ordinary Pansat 2500A satellite receiver,
using the DVB standard, not a licenced and owned propriatary receiver.

But, if you want,
check and see if anyone has been sent to the pokie, I couldn't find any info on anyone having been busted yet.

The Pansat opens these chanels,
kind of like a dvd player, this receiver has a hidden menu for
commercial brodcast systems. Like setting a DVD player for region free.
Once software is loaded,
It doesn't descriminate between subscribed channels, it enables all channels at the same time, even feeds for PPV.

As it is not a registered and owned subscription receiver, it isn't subject to the same rules that would apply to Licenced Property Theft.

But don't worry, this probably won't last for long.

BTW: it comes with many broadcast formats straight from the factory.

You dont have to hack cards, use emulators, or any of the other covert ops. to open the channels,
just change a simple bin file via RS-232 null modem cable.

The software is free; and at no charge,
unlike the methods used by hackers to modify the Propriatory equipment.

I just took it out of the box and turned it on, and it turns out
that there is way more already open and free without changing a single thing.

Pansat is a legitamate company,not THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE!

For channels available FTA check with lingsat.com website.

Dean,
Exactly like ham, the channels do switch locations from time to time. just like the early days of satellite tv.

If they chose to use a secure addressable encription system, without open source code such as linux,
then it would be illegal to watch.

BTW: there is some work involved, you have to map your own channels, and scan the sky.

Edited: for the protection of Film-Tech
and Brad Miller!
Season's Greetings!

[ 12-13-2005, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Erick Akers ]
 

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Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 12-04-2005, 01:34 AM:
 
Well,
I'm still enjoying free premium tv in Dolby Digital!
5000 channels and everythings still on

You guys and gals are really missing out.

Satellite TV Kicks Arse!

What is it NBC Sez?

The More You Know!

Want to know more?
Ask.

Joe, There's 15 channels for your international porn pleasure!

[ 12-05-2005, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Erick Akers ]
 

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Posted by Mike Williams (Member # 1140) on 12-04-2005, 06:58 PM:
 
If you have an extra dish sitting around, you can plug it into this satelite tuner card and try it out on your computer without making the investment of an entire system.

Erick, I am glad you posted about this. I have been wondering if it was worth getting. Many of the sites I have seen show that Free Satelite mainly only has channels from Europe or Asia.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-04-2005, 07:00 PM:
 
Duh, it's called "Theft of Service".

All the legit people that pay for it legally also pay for the thieves. Just because Canada doesn't offer the service, doesn't make it right to steal it since the signal spills over into your area. There are plenty of Canadian dealers that make equipment and hack cards that are legal up there but are not legal in the US...but will ship here. And of course, not to mention the $$$ for the changing "files" so as to keep the channels coming.

BTW: Erick, get off the I-30 stuff... posting and announcing about your illegal activities on a public website opens you up to the Satellite/Cable Police and puts Brad and FT in jeopardy as well.

Stick to the hacker sites.
 

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Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 12-05-2005, 04:55 AM:
 
Phill
Enough said...

This receiver is coming from a manufacturer in your neighborhood,
Panarax has been in business since 1982.

During the dawn of satellite TV, was it a moral question of signal theft?

Hell, I still have in my posession an expired users licence from before the dawn of the home satellite revolution!

Funny,

It's ok to post here about other illegal activities here such as
Programming your DVD players for Regions Free operation.
Piratimg Movies, or downloading Pirated movies ect...

All totaly illegal!

Even if spoken in Jest!

Why hell, if you use the magic search box, you will actually find
many of our members, either illuding to doing such deeds or to openly confessing to performing illegal acts here.

There are so many; even by moderators, that I don't even believe Daryl could find them all without blanking the entire database, and I found quite a few!

As we share another hobby that resides in a grey area;
Phll,
you were the last person I thought would take offence at this subject!!! Cast any stones at yourself lately?

There is no U.S. law that states that receiving Canadian Signals are illegal!

If they (Canada) dont want it spilling over this far south,
there is such a thing as a spot beam, they do it for all of the local channels for each U.S. state!

BTW:
1. I am a paying suscriber!
2. I never said I was watching un open channels,
only that it was possible.

Believe me when I say, there's plenty of premium channels open and unscrambled sent out as back hauls, literally thousands!

As with all of the newer forms of DBS the signals go up, come down to the re broadcast center and than go back up to space and then come back down to the paying subscriber!

Bottom line, if they were bothered by this it would be scrambled from the point of origon and not use an open source code!

DirectTV and 4DTV are the only services that do just that!

It's just a hobby like anything else,
but as with everyone, you are intitled to your own opinions on the subject.

Jeesuss Christ Miss Martha,
Lighten Up!!!

Quote Phill Hill:

BTW: Erick, get off the I-30 stuff... posting and announcing about your illegal activities.....

So far you illuded to me being a thief, and a Drug user; and,
if you reed between the lines...

As per F-T rule #1, should be considererd a personal attack!!!

If that was your intention; believe me, it was accepted as such!

What or who crawled up your ass, anyway?

I thought we were friends?

I guess only to a point!

Brad, Does Forum rule #1 count for shit?

Brad,
Seriously,

If I have done anything to put Film-Tech in Jepordy, I apologise
and would even resign my membership here, though this is hands down my favorite web forum!

I have never attacked another member here, I'm not a fighter just a lover and peace maker!
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-05-2005, 05:21 AM:
 
Holy Cow! I guess I got told, huh?

Chill out Erick. It's just *MY* opinion. Just because it differs from yours is no need to get your panties all tied up in a knot and have a fit.

OBTW: The I-30 comment is a standing joke around FT meaning "get real", "put your foot on the ground", and the like. Sorry you don't "get it".
 

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Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 12-05-2005, 06:59 AM:
 

quote: Phil Hill

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posting and announcing about your illegal activities...

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Phil,
That's the part that I Dont get, or understand?

The personal attack was in the wording:

"posting and announcing your illegal activities"

Note the word "Your".

If only that particular word was dropped from the statement!

If I'm wrong, please help me understand!

I accept the I-30 running joke, but why assume my activities are illegal?

I know you intended your statement as a frindly warning, but the
meaning was lost in translation. (Pissed me off!)

Sometimes translations go wrong, dont they Phil?

Come on,

I have never seen you get "your panties all tied up in a knot"
over any of the other subjects that fall into
the other illegal catagories as listed!

All of the other illegal activities previously discussed here:

1. Hacking DTS discs.
2. Region Free DVD.
3. Downloading Pirated movies.
4. Collecting 35mm Features that fall off the truck.(Yeah Right!)

I mean,
I would never intend to put anyone in danger, especially me!

As such, I have reworded my title and dropped any reffrence to
certan satellite services previously listed!

Why would this one subject be any different, and jepordise
the F-T web site more than the others?

All of these catagories fall into the relm of Federal law enforcement!

Surely,
the other post would have already endangered Film-Tech by now.

Do we have any impending law suits?

If I was out of line,
I apologise to everyone!
Especially you!
You loveable old Coot!

[ 12-05-2005, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Erick Akers ]
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-05-2005, 07:34 PM:
 
The words "your" and "you" were meant as a general hyperbole to mean "ALL" in general... not *YOU* specifically Erick. My fault for a poor choice of words. Perhaps I should have said "ones" and "one"... my bad.

I don't accept the "Since everyone else is posting illegal stuff why are you jumping on this" argument. That is a poor justification: "... since others are doing similar things, it must be OK if I do this". Most all the stuff you (Erick) sight are tongue-in-cheek posts or have been slammed down as illegal or not acceptable.

The basic problem with this thread is, as ***I*** see it is the cable/satellite police are very active in pursuing ANY hints of theft of service. I have NO idea of how they are in Texas, but here, within the last 6 months they have busted and big-time fined theft-of-service individuals and busted hack equipment manufacturers.

Anyway, I really don't care one way or another and it certainly IS NOT an issue I'm gonna waste my time on researching here on FT. You've stated your opinion and I've stated mine. It certainly doesn't mean I dislike or hate you...as you seem to think. We just have a legitimate difference of opinion on this issue.

Stick a fork in me, I'm done...I've said my piece and said what I wanted to say... Have at me, y'all
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 12-06-2005, 08:04 AM:
 

quote: Phil Hill

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There are plenty of Canadian dealers that make equipment and hack cards that are legal up there but are not legal in the US...but will ship here.

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Just to clairfy, the unauthorized decryption of any data is illegal in Canada.
 

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Posted by Mike Williams (Member # 1140) on 12-10-2005, 12:13 PM:
 
I've got to ask...
If the channels are not scrambled or encrypted, how is it considered stealing? I could definitely see an arguement for it being illegal if there was some process involved to descramble the signal, but this is not the case. You can receive it just by tuning to the channel and it is not scrambled.

Would this not be similar being able to see the screen of a drive in from your house because the screen happens to be pointed in the right direction? It can't be illegal to look out your window!
 

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Posted by Jamie Glossop (Member # 2180) on 12-10-2005, 06:56 PM:
 
Ive heard something like this before, Sounds intresting Free To Air
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-12-2005, 06:19 AM:
 

quote:

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It can't be illegal to look out your window!

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quote: Phil Hill

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but here, within the last 6 months they have busted and big-time fined theft-of-service individuals

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quote: Frank Angel

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I bet if I put anything anywhere on my car with the letters FBI on it, they'd arrest me for using their copyrighted, traidmarked anagram.

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quote:

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Mike Williams :
I've got to ask...
If the channels are not scrambled or encrypted, how is it considered stealing? I could definitely see an argument for it being illegal if there was some process involved to descramble the signal, but this is not the case. You can receive it just by tuning to the channel and it is not scrambled.

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quote:

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Phil Hill:
Erick, get off the I-30 stuff... posting and announcing about your illegal activities on a public website opens you up to the Satellite/Cable Police

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quote: Phil Hill

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The words "your" and "you" were meant as a general hyperbole to mean "ALL" in general... not *YOU* specifically Erick.

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One Word, BULLSHIT!

This may have been a warning, but also a personal attack!
I can diagram a sentance, and this still pisses me off!

( Erick, posting your activities on a website opens you up)

Quite personalised, dont you think?

It was his opinion, and he made his point and I dont hate or dislike him for it.
All I wanted to do was share another hobby that I enjoy with others. If it's not your thing that's cool!
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-12-2005, 01:52 PM:
 
What is the purpose of this thread if it is not to announce that you are getting something for free that you are supposed to be paying for?

You know that you are supposed to be paying for them as you are making a big deal out of telling everyone that you are getting them for free.

So in the spirit of the situation you know you are stealing services which are meant to be paid for.

Compairing your situation to making DVD players regionless doesn't wash either. When you access the firmware in a DVD player you are not taking anything that you are supposed to pay for. So that's not theft of service in any form.

If you didn't think you are pulling a fast one you would not have started this thread.

In the prescrambling days, you would have had an arguement. But it's pretty obvious what you are up to now. It's like going into someones house and stealing their stuff and then saying if they didn't want to have their stuff stolen they should have locked their doors better. Give me a break
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 12-12-2005, 02:10 PM:
 

quote: Erick Akers

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We don't have an international law agreement with any country dealing with theft of their services, nor do they have one with us in regards to viewing ours.

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quote: Erick Akers

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There is only one rule to be on the safe side:
Do not Steal services offered in your country!

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quote: Erick Akers

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The bitch fest started when Phil went on a personal attack

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quote:

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Greg Mueller said:
Compairing your situation to making DVD players regionless doesn't wash either. When you access the firmware in a DVD player you are not taking anything that you are supposed to pay for. So that's not theft of service in any form.

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Yes it is!
And case you missed it, I am a legitamate paying suscriber!
Use your and read more closely!

Please check your facts if you are not sure!

Under section 1201 and 1204 of the Digital Millinium Copyright Act (DMCA), It's considered unlawful to circumvent technology that limits access to copyrighted work.
And.....

Punishment for violating the statute is a maximum of 5 years in prison and a $500,000 fine.

That's why there is a region code.

Our friends at the MPAA insisted this be inacted to prevent other countries from viewing a DVD release before the theater run was compleated.

This is "theft of services" as the DVD release is not available (baring world wide release), during the features first and second run, cheating all parties involved from first generation profits,and sales taxes.
If you run a theater, would you not feel cheated out of your profits if the DVD was released the same day?

quote:

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Daryl C.W. O'Shea Said:
Even if that is completely true, which I'm quite sure it isn't but don't care enough to look something up to cite, a lack of "an international law agreement with any country dealing with theft of their services" does not protect an individual from civil litigation which you would surely lose -- just like the swaths of people successfully sued by DirecTV in Canada.

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Sorry,
You're also Wrong!!!
I'll give you this, this lawsuit originated in Hamilton; your home base, but you failed to keep up with current events as they happened around you and the final outcome of them!

Daryl,
So far it makes a difference in your country.
Are you against your own constitutional rights as a Canadian Citizen? You Didn't care to check your facts either!

Un believeable!

I thought you guys were against giving up your rights; in fact you guys fight for them!
That's why I have more respect for my Canadian Brethern!

As U.S. citizens, we don't act on the loss of our constitutional rights, but complain constantly when we loose them!

Unless I am mistaken,

The CTRC bill C-22 has not passed!
So as of now, reception of Scrambled American Signals is still legal and concidered "Public Domain" in Canada!
Now that your government has decided to start from scratch with a new election,It is a dead issue now!

As Such, The rulng by Judge Danielle Coate Still stands. Want to call her? I have her direct line!

[QUÉBEC COURT RULES CANADIAN SATELLITE TV LAW UNCONSTITUTIONAL!]

Pulse 24 Dish-Affected Viewers

Those that were persued by Direct TV in Canada were aquitted, and the equipment returned to the owners.
The Direct TV lawsuit didn't stand up in your court!

All I'm asking is for everyone to check the real facts, and proove me wrong on the law regarding FTA receivers!

Greg,

The purpose was education!

I changed the post, not only to protect the site but to also let others know that there are indeed other Legal Free and clear unscrambled channels! If You don't want to check it out it's your loss, not mine!

The post was originally started and worded as friendly
tongue -in- cheek conversation, but you guys (Phil-Greg-Daryl) turned it into a free for all on me!

quote:

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Phill Hill:
Anyway, I really don't care one way or another and it certainly IS NOT an issue I'm gonna waste my time on researching here on FT. You've stated your opinion and I've stated mine. It certainly doesn't mean I dislike or hate you...as you seem to think. We just have a legitimate difference of opinion on this issue.

Stick a fork in me, I'm done...I've said my piece and said what I wanted to say... Have at me, y'all

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Can't keep your word, can you Phil?
Must be time well wasted!

BTW: Awww! Phil your baby picture was so cute, but you looked like you needed your dipee changed!

If you can't say something nice......
Please don't say anything at all!

Cheers!


 

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Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 12-13-2005, 09:17 AM:
 
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this thread, let me try to clear up some.

This applies to the USA only:

The DVD Region Coding has not been considered a copy protection scheme by the courts, mainly because when it was introduced, it was not represented as such, it was represented as a technological solution to prevent grey market items (legitimate products from a different market). In the USA, grey market items are, and have been for years legal, and the courts have consistantly upheld the right of consumers to buy legitimate items from overseas sources over the objections of the domestic rights holder. Nothing in the Digital Millenium Copyright act addresses the grey market issue one way or another.

As Erick has pointed out, and thousands of big dish owners have known for years, it that there are hundreds of FREE, unscrambled, channels available, including many that DirecTV and Dish Network charge for on their repective systems. Yes, if you hack a DirectTV or Dish Network box to receive these channels in the USA you are breaking the law, since it is illegal to unscramble encrypted signals without authorization. What Erick is talking about however, is receiving the unencrypted source signal via a big dish and a modified big dish receiver. As these source signals are not encrypted, they are legal under US law for anyone to receive.

Program providers send up their programming up to a satellite, which beams it back down. Cable companies and small dish providers pick up these signals, encrypt them, and re-send them to their paid subscribers. While some program suppliers encrypt their original signal, many do not and these are perfectly legal for anyone to receive, if you have the equipment.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 12-13-2005, 11:07 AM:
 

quote: Erick Akers

---

I'll give you this, this lawsuit originated in Hamilton; your home base, but you failed to keep up with current events as they happened around you and the final outcome of them!

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quote: Erick Akers

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Are you against your own constitutional rights as a Canadian Citizen?

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quote: Erick Akers

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You Didn't care to check your facts either!

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quote: Erick Akers

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QUÉBEC COURT RULES CANADIAN SATELLITE TV LAW UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

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quote: Erick Akers

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The CTRC bill C-22 has not passed! ... Now that your government has decided to start from scratch with a new election, It is a dead issue now!

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quote: Erick Akers

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All I'm asking is for everyone to check the real facts, and proove me wrong on the law regarding FTA receivers!

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quote: Erick Akers

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The post was originally started and worded as friendly
tongue -in- cheek conversation, but you guys (Phil-Greg-Daryl) turned it into a free for all on me!

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quote: Erick Akers

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This is "theft of services" as the DVD release is not available (baring world wide release), during the features first and second run, cheating all parties involved from first generation profits,and sales taxes.
If you run a theater, would you not feel cheated out of your profits if the DVD was released the same day?

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quote: Erick Akers

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Under section 1201 and 1204 of the Digital Millinium Copyright Act (DMCA), It's considered unlawful to circumvent technology that limits access to copyrighted work.

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All of the content broadcast on all of the Canadian satellite television systems are copyrighted. How is following your suggestion of "only stealing services from outside your country" not unlawful under the DCMA? I'm positive that you were referring to "stealing" (your words) subscription services and not free to air feeds.

Finally, I find it odd that you use the word "steal" but argue that those with the opinion that it (stealing) is wrong are incorrect.
 

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Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 12-13-2005, 11:18 AM:
 
"Collecting magic mushrooms, Streaking, Getting wickedly stoned, and laughing my ass off!!! Who reads these things anyway? If you really want to know, just ask!!! "

Erik, can you get these magic mushrooms via satellite?
 

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Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 12-13-2005, 02:30 PM:
 
Daryl,
Really, all I wanted to do was share a hobby. It only became a debate when a certan person who supposedly said his piece, went for the juggular.

While it is true that subjects here do sometimes become hottly debated; I honestly didn't think that satellite TV DX'ing remotely had a chance,otherwise, I would never have started the post in the first place.

Everyone here has diferent ethical opinions in one way or another, but I was only defending the legality,not ethics.

I thought you were just joining the pride, and feeding off of my carcas along with everyone else, when you said that you were quite sure that that my statement was false!

I do respect your opinion; highly in fact , so when you failed to check the facts, which is unusual for you, I misread your post as gang mentality, not as an open debate! After being verbally slammed around, I just wanted to make sure this wasn't the case.

Thank you for making it clear, and I truely apologise, no harm or disrespect intended to you.

As far as I can tell from watching your satellite services, (which BTW I would gladly subscribe, as I agree with you about American TV )

We share the exact same release schedual PPV movies and events. I'm not sure as far as DVD's are released in Canada, but the PPV movies are only available here after the DVD has been out for about two weeks or longer, but that wasn't the case two years ago!

The mention of the Digital Millinium Copyright Act; was in regards to a link posted here at F-T, that I followed on DVD Player software.I have studied and researched and believe me I looked thoroughly; the DMCA does not,and has not been ammended to include FTA Satellite receivers.

The services I referred to as stealing, would be what was legally available in your country for subscription. I.E. Bell expressVu if you were receiving them illegally, and Dish Network if I was receiving them illegally.

I think Mitchell slightly mispoke when he said modified big dish receiver. I think he ment Digital big dish Receiver as nothing has been modified.
The signal inters from the IF output of the analog receiver to the IF input on the digital receiver, allowing the master receiver to act as the satellite positioner.

Thanks Mitchell for shining some light and joining the former discussion, now debate!

James,
Not yet, but I could send you a link for downloading and printing your own!


Erick.

[ 12-13-2005, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Erick Akers ]
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-13-2005, 02:43 PM:
 
So if I change a dvd player to region "0" but don't play out of my region DVDs then I am still breaking the law?
My statement was about the act of changing a piece of supplied firmware within the DVD player, not playing DVDs from another region.

I think you're just being intellectually dishonest.

The thing is, that you know that those >PAY< PER VIEW channels are meant to be >PAID< for. So are all of the premium services that cable and satellite companies >SELL<. Viewing them in any other way other than PAYING for them is dishonest.

Crowing about getting them for free, says it all
 

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Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 12-13-2005, 03:58 PM:
 
Aahh, but what about the macrovision that is also disabled along with region "0"?

Greg,
As far as I am concerned,
With the intellectual property you also collect...

Just as intelectually dishonest as you!

Makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside doesn't it?

I Don't own a VCR DVD-R or a PVR; so for me, it's just vaporware!

If you dont like the fact that the back hauls are not scrambled
Tough

Call the uplink station!
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-13-2005, 05:13 PM:
 
You keep trying to divert attention away from the point.

You are dishonest


 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-13-2005, 08:16 PM:
 

quote: Erick

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Can't keep your word, can you Phil?
Must be time well wasted!

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quote: RULES AND POLICIES

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RULE #1 (paraphrased)

Personal attacks: These forums are moderated in the respect solely toward personal attacks. Everyone is welcome to participate in any capacity until the point comes at which other members are being singled out and directly insulted.

All this refers to is the tone of the post if made toward a specific member of the forums. Disagreements are a daily occurence on the forums and will not be moderated, but personally attacking another member will not be tolerated.

If you are unsure if your post will "read" poorly toward another, please consider using smileys to assist in expressing the tone of your post or re-word it before posting, or refrain from posting it completely.

The bottom line is to please be polite, mature and professional towards the other members or you will be removed from the forums, regardless of your knowledge or stature in the industry. This includes sending harrasing emails to other members and comments made in the chat room.

When in doubt, please do as your mother told you and keep your comments to yourself.

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quote: Phill Hill

---

Phil said "..."

Erick replied: Blah Blah Blah

Phil said "..."

Erick replied: Blah Blah Blah

Phil said "..."

Erick replied: Blah Blah Blah

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quote: Greg Mueller

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What is the purpose of this thread if it is not to announce that you are getting something for free that you are supposed to be paying for?

You know that you are supposed to be paying for them as you are making a big deal out of telling everyone that you are getting them for free.
I think you're just being intellectually dishonest.

The thing is, that you know that those >PAY< PER VIEW channels are meant to be >PAID< for. So are all of the premium services that cable and satellite companies >SELL<. Viewing them in any other way other than PAYING for them is dishonest.

Crowing about getting them for free, says it allYou keep trying to divert attention away from the point.

You are dishonest

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quote: RULE#1

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When in doubt, please do as your mother told you and keep your comments to yourself.

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quote: Phill Hill

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I agree with others here that you deflect the truth and logical and rational justifications with personal attacks and comparisons to other activities.

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