This is topic Hurricane Katrina in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-28-2005, 02:27 PM:
 
Just a quick note to wish those in Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi good luck for the coming hours, and especially those in New Orleans. The BBC radio news report at lunchtime speculated that the potential damage 'might stretch as far east as the Alabama port city of Mobile', so good luck to William; and (obviously) I hope it doesn't.
 

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Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 08-28-2005, 02:34 PM:
 
From seemingly official NOAA site http://weather.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/iwszone?Sites=:laz062

URGENT - WEATHER MESSAGE
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NEW ORLEANS LA
1011 AM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005

DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED

HURRICANE KATRINA
A MOST POWERFUL HURRICANE WITH UNPRECEDENTED
STRENGTH...RIVALING THE INTENSITY OF HURRICANE CAMILLE OF 1969.

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT
LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL
FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY
DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL.
PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD
FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE
BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME
WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A
FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.

AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH
AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY
VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE
ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE
WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN
AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING
INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF NATIVE TREES WILL BE SNAPPED OR UPROOTED. ONLY
THE HEARTIEST WILL REMAIN STANDING...BUT BE TOTALLY DEFOLIATED. FEW
CROPS WILL REMAIN. LIVESTOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL BE
KILLED.

AN INLAND HURRICANE WIND WARNING IS ISSUED WHEN SUSTAINED WINDS NEAR
HURRICANE FORCE...OR FREQUENT GUSTS AT OR ABOVE HURRICANE FORCE...ARE
CERTAIN WITHIN THE NEXT 12 TO 24 HOURS.

ONCE TROPICAL STORM AND HURRICANE FORCE WINDS ONSET...DO NOT VENTURE
OUTSIDE!



Conditions seem a bit unfavorable... I hope things don't get as biblically awful as this warning suggests.
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-28-2005, 02:44 PM:
 
last report has the winds in the wall of the eye exceeding 150kt's and the eyes central pressure has dropped to 906mb's The news stated that would make the storm the strongest in recorded history.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-28-2005, 03:01 PM:
 
The worst part is that New Orleans is going to take a bath in this storm... LITERALLY! Most of the city is below sea level, behind levees. To top it all off, the hurricane is predicted to hit at high tide! Once the storm surge breaches the levees, New Orleans will flood!

My wife told me the storm was going to hit New Orleans this morning. My response was, "Oh Shit!" There's nothing that can be done but cross your fingers and pray for the best.

The city has been under evacuation since Friday. I hope that anybody reading this board who is in New Orleans will be able to "Get outta' Dodge!" If not, I understand that the designated "Safe Haven" for the area is the Super Dome. Just get your ass to the Dome and take cover.

We're all with you! Just hang in there!
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-28-2005, 03:47 PM:
 
there is a mandatory evacuation in process now for new orleans. central eye preasure is now down to 902mb's.
 

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Posted by Allison Parsons (Member # 2728) on 08-28-2005, 04:26 PM:
 
As someone who's yearly vacation spot was knocked down from Hurrican Ivan, I wish the best of luck to anyone in then New Orleans area!!

So, I don't know the history of New Orleans, but will someone tell my why did someone think it would be a good idea to build a city BELOW sea level....right next to the ocean!? It still boggles my mind.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-28-2005, 07:00 PM:
 
Katrina and the waves are about to hit, but it sure ain't "walking on the sunshine."

The news coverage has been concentrated on New Orleans. But there are many smaller town and villages well to the south and southeast of the Big Easy. New Orleans faces a terrible situation. But anyone foolish enough to try to ride out this storm in towns like Grand Isle and Venice may face certain death. Many of those bayou towns are built on marsh land right on the coast or just a few miles inland. They have no shelter at all against the possible category 5 winds and storm surges as high as 30 feet.

When my father was stationed in New Orleans we often took fishing trips down to Grand Isle. I have some fond memories of that place and am pretty concerned it may get totally destroyed.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-28-2005, 07:41 PM:
 
There's also the oil angle, lifted from MarketWatch

quote:

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Katrina was bearing down on a region that produces about a quarter of U.S. domestic-oil production.

Royal Dutch Shell and other energy producers have already shut production facilities that produce close to half a million barrels of oil per day. Energy companies were evacuating oil rigs and platforms in the Gulf as well as onshore production facilities.

About one-sixth of the U.S. oil supply comes through facilities at Port Fourchon, La., near New Orleans, and any damage could send prices of oil and natural gas to record levels.

"Our priority right now is the safety of our employees and in securing our facilities," Shell spokeswoman Darci Sinclair said. Shell employs 4,000 workers in Louisiana, she added.

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quote:

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The pressure dropped as low as 902 mb on Sunday afternoon but has since risen. The 902 mb pressure reading was the 4th lowest on record in the Atlantic Basin.

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Hurricane Mitch Scroll down to Table 2.

Gilbert Sep 13, 1988 888 mb
Florida Keys Sep 3, 1935 892 mb
Allen Aug 7, 1980 899 mb
Mitch Oct 26, 1998 905 mb
Camille Aug 17, 1969 905 mb
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-29-2005, 02:37 PM:
 
CNN news report worth watching

Quicktime video
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-29-2005, 03:06 PM:
 
Meow! Snarl! Hiss!

If the latest BBC report is accurate, it looks like Katrina veered a little further north-east than first thought, and also lost some strength: with the result that the damage to New Orleans might not be as bad as the worst case scenario.
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 08-29-2005, 04:00 PM:
 
Gotta love small-market TV "talent".

Looks like Gulfport, MS may have taken a harder hit than New Orleans did.

I've been collecting the aviation weather reports and forecasts for the area since yesterday, for use in my upcoming weather class. The series of hourly reports for the New Orleans Lakefront Airport (KNEW) show how as the storm intensity increased, the automated measuring equipment started failing, leaving more and more gaps in the reporting with each passing hour, until the system or the power failed after the 1253Z observation.

The observations at the Louis Armstrong New Orleans Int'l Airport (KMSY) stopped much earlier at 0353Z, again probably due to power failure or perhaps the guys bailing out. There's been no terminal forecasts issued for the airport since 0600Z.

Keesler AFB (KBIX) stopped reporting after 1355Z and Gulfport-Biloxi Int'l Airport (KGPT) after 1025Z. They too missed their 1800Z terminal forecast.

Glad I wasn't there. Hope Bill Hooper and Jon Sharpe got out of there while the gettin' was good.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 08-29-2005, 04:46 PM:
 
I saw that CNN bit live and thought that wx guy was right on target. That rude bitch keep interupting while he was making a really good presentation of the facts.

Perhaps she gets paid per word?
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-29-2005, 05:11 PM:
 
It looked to me like something was going on off the screen: she decided that she had a score to settle (justified or otherwise), and he was grimly determined not to give her the satisfaction.

I'll leave the double entendre to Phil...
 

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Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 08-29-2005, 05:14 PM:
 
I never watch Communist News Network, so I missed out on the blowup. Looked like quite the uncomfortable moment.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 08-29-2005, 09:09 PM:
 
Oh my Wolffie, CNN=Communist News Network? ...I'm shocked and dismayed!
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-29-2005, 11:44 PM:
 
On noes for Wolfie! Wolfie says "Communist News Network" which translates to "I voted for Bush" which means we know who you voted for President which = BANNED!
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 08-29-2005, 11:47 PM:
 
Hey Joe-boi! I thought ALL political comments were banned!

***YOU*** NEED to BAN yourself!
 

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Posted by Jennifer Pan (Member # 2035) on 08-30-2005, 12:49 AM:
 
I second that notion.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-30-2005, 02:30 AM:
 
He just got a little distracted by that red blouse the presenter was wearing; that's all.

...but just in case CNN is too moderate for Wolff's tastes, here's a real Communist news network...
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-30-2005, 06:31 AM:
 

quote:

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On noes for Wolfie! Wolfie says "Communist News Network" which translates to "I voted for Bush" which means we know who you voted for President which = BANNED!

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-30-2005, 10:53 AM:
 
I can't be BANNED because you can not tell who I voted for President based on my comments. Brad sez we can say anything we want, just as long as he can't tell which party we tend to vote for by our comments. Read the FAQ!
 

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Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 08-30-2005, 12:06 PM:
 
I didnt vote, can I be banned for that?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-30-2005, 03:00 PM:
 
Y'all a bunch o' whiners!


 

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Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 08-30-2005, 03:06 PM:
 
Brad where did you find my quarter?

I must have dropped it at the Martini Bar at Showest....back in 02'
 

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Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 08-30-2005, 07:22 PM:
 
I have to get serious here. I'm watching MS-NBC right now (Olbermann's show...a very good show, BTW). THey are showing footage from a helicopter trip over the damage in Mississippi. I'm seeing highways totally destroyed, casino boats lifted out of the water and deposited on hotels. I have never seen damage like this. Wow...Highway 90 is totally knocked off of its moorings...it is just gone.

New Orleans will take years to recover. Only the roofs of houses are visible. There have been suicides in the SuperDome. I can't imagine being in there with no air conditioning. And, the weather forecast tomorrow is for mid-90's! The smell must be horrific.

I'm a big weather geek, and I probably over follow these things. There has been a strange depression around Florida for a couple of weeks. It would come and go without warning. Then, last week it flared up and shot across Florida (With all of the Gulf Coast stuff, we haven't heard much of Florida).

I'm sitting under the remains of the hurricane right now. It's just about moved through. We've had about 2" of rain in the past 6 hours...certainly not a problem as our ground is dry. Could have been much worse here, but it shot through much faster than expected. Our original estimate was 7".

Now, New Orleans is being evacuated. I have no idea how they'll get all those people out of there with no electricity, water, or much else.

We're going to be dealing with this for a long time. My heart goes out to all the people there, and I wish only the best for Film-Tech'ers caught in this mess.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-30-2005, 10:31 PM:
 
Hmmm... perhaps now they are regretting building New Orleans below sea level.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-30-2005, 11:27 PM:
 
They didn't build New Orleans below sea level, it just wound up that way for reasons previously described.

The north side of Lake Ponchatrain will eventually be the edge of the Gulf Coast for that part of Louisiana. The rest of it is going to disappear. That includes New Orleans.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-31-2005, 02:32 AM:
 
The impression I get from the BBC reports (which may not be entirely accurate, given that they're relying on just one or two correspondents in the area) is that in the days leading up to Katrina making landfall, everyone was entirely focused on the likelihood of immediate storm damage to New Orleans and that the towns further east along the coast which ended up taking the brunt of it were working in the belief that they'd escape serious damage. The coverage I've seen also suggests that no-one was really expecting floods in New Orleans to start several hours after Katrina had passed, i.e. that if the levees were still intact after the eye had passed, the worst had been escaped.

Admittedly this was on a far smaller scale, but I do remember that when the 1987 'hurricane' hit the south-east of England, most of the deaths and injuries didn't happen during the night of the storm itself but in the days and weeks following it - trees that had been weakened by the storm falling on people; that sort of thing.

The victims of this storm are going to need help and support long after the TV crews have packed up and left town.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-31-2005, 09:46 AM:
 
I was channel surfing last night and stopped on MS-NBC's excellent coverage. I saw that helicopter tour of the devastation. It was pretty amazing video, shocking actually. They let the camera do the talking, mimimal voiceover. Fox's coverage was abominable in comparison, talking heads, babbling news readers, flashy graphics all over the screen, just plain awful, at least what I saw last night.

I haven't heard anything about other nations offering to rush money, supplies or other assistance to us. Guess they must all be preoccupied with other things.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-31-2005, 09:53 AM:
 
The damage from flooding into New Orleans is making the damage suffered in S. Florida from Hurricane Andrew pale in comparison. The New Orleans area, as well as parts of Mississippi have been plunged into the dark ages. No power, no water, no sewage or trash removal.

Countless thousands of homes in the Big Easy are a total loss. That includes a good number of old, historic homes. Couple this with the fact a great deal of people had no flood insurance (in parts of Mississippi only 1 in 5 residents were insured). My early prediction is New Orleans may see at least 100,000 to 250,000 people leave that area, if not more.
 

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Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 08-31-2005, 10:48 AM:
 

quote: Bobby Henderson

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They didn't build New Orleans below sea level, it just wound up that way for reasons previously described.

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quote: David Stambaugh

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I haven't heard anything about other nations offering to rush money, supplies or other assistance to us. Guess they must all be preoccupied with other things.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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They didn't build New Orleans below sea level, it just wound up that way for reasons previously described.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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Couple this with the fact a great deal of people had no flood insurance (in parts of Mississippi only 1 in 5 residents were insured).

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quote: Lyle Romer

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Unless the land is actually sinking, it had to be built below sea level.

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quote: Joe Redifer

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Uhhh, no. They built it below sea level unless you are insinuating that the entire city sank after it was built.

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quote: Joe Redifer

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And now people are too emtionally attached to the place to even consider nixing the city and relocating elsewhere. Like has been said previously in this thread, it's not exactly a surprise here. Bit no.. we'll rebuild on the same spot and keep the city like the bunch o' morons we be.

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Joe, you make it sound as if the city was built in the last 50 years. New Orleans is infact a very old, and historic city, dating back to the time that France held the land (pre Lousiana purchase).

People live where their jobs are.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-31-2005, 11:35 PM:
 
Yes, New Orleans has always been pretty much below sea level but it wasn't as FAR below sea level until humans started tinkering around.

Then levees were built and pumps started pumping out water. Buildings were built and the general flow of natural water in and out of the delta was interrupted.

By a combination of natural and man-made processes, the areas in the middle of New Orleans started to sink and the areas around the edges got built up.

The event that just occurred was simply Mother Nature saying, "It's time to fill up the middle and flatten out the edges.

What kind of a bone head would build a city in a place like that? Well, New Orleans was originally settled by French people. That about answers it right there. Doesn't it?
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 09-01-2005, 04:58 AM:
 
...and you guys bought it from them!
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 09-01-2005, 06:39 AM:
 
It's nice to get a couple hours' break.

I dunno what to tell you, it's astounding. Folks must look at the pictures of damage of MS on TV & think they're seeing the same area, but all the way across MS' coastal construction, houses, etc. is literally sawdust. For miles in after that it's just shredded, into central MS.

New Orleans & coastal LA have their own destruction profile due to flood the peculiar flood pathology there, but as folks who are familiar with hurricanes know the spread to the east of the eye is the meat grinder. It extended to Pensacloa, FL, destroying concrete tresteled state highways, etc.

I've seen photos of homes after hurricanes in other low areas with water up to or past the 1st floor windows & a caption of "submerged homes", but in the outlying areas of New Orlean (up to sizeable Slidell, LA, etc.) there are aerial photos of blocks of houses *actually* submerged, looking like Monopoly houses at the bottom of a pool.

Mobile had heavy damage but it's a major metro area closest in to MS, & it's becoming a staging area with parking lots of malls, shopping centers, etc. filliing with equipment trying to get west into MS & refugees who were trying to go back & can go no further.

Joe Redifer is trying to do triage on a gag that failed out becuase the setup was wrong: New Orleans was not built below sea level. The levees were built to stave off water from floods of the MS river & lake Pontchartrain, but the result over time is that they created channels diverting the silt which maintains the coastline. As a result subsidence occurred, & the area began to slowly move below sea level. The best now is to try to divert that type of schematic gag to port & coastal cities should not be built or inhabited.

There's an ironic picture taken in Mobile during the storm at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lumis/38580827/
It would likely have been taken about 9am, because the water got much higher. A TV station got a feed during the storm from the Alabama Department of Transportation cameras (which I didn't now existed) mounted on buildings in downtown Mobile until they failed; the shot I saw was of about 14' of water with windblown whitecaps running solidly about 10' apart through downtown Mobile. It didn't look choppy, it looked like a whitewater river.

The refugee situation is monstrous. The outpoor from hugely populated New Orleans is mindboggling, but the displacement of the homeless from the lower half of MS is flooding everything around with people: people are being evacuated from the Superdome in NOLA to the Astrodome in TX, Memphis TN is starting to strain, Mobile & Alabama further north are clogging with people.

Leo got a good overview of some of the public pre-storm perception, the MS folks did not understand how bad it would be if the storm hit New Orleans. MS EMA & the media fell down in getting people to evacuate, RIGHT AFTER Ivan which hit Gulf Shores AL but ground Pensacola & even more easterly FL communities for hours befored & during Ivan to a flattened disaster area. MS EMA in (I think) Harrison county swam out from their buliding in life preservers during the storm, a damning comedwown from Camille when they made sure people got out.

Can't contact folks via cell phone for the most part if they had MS or LA area codes, even if they evacuated. Just yesterday afternoon I got hold of some NOLA folks on cell phone who had evacuated to Gonzales, LA & then to Beaumont, TX. Communications are practically impossible, except for satellite phones.

My brother is in Miami & told me right after Katrina went through there that Richard Fowler did NOTHING to stop this hurricane, thinking only of himself by putting masking tape X's over the lenses of his spectacles. My disappointment in Richard Fowler is a little high right now.

A TV truck got through to someplace in MS Wednesday & shot back a community that is literally dying of thirst: National Guard had not yet got in, if water distribution points had been setup they didn't know because all local radio & TV are down & MS EMA was so screwed that they either had nothing for them or didn't get the info to AL broadcasters to put on the air so the MS residents could get it. And AL radio & TV have been SCREAMING to MS EMA to get them emergency info. Yesterday afternoon, some Biloxi MS radio got back up, but I think they're just re-transmitting a TV feed from MS somewhere via a tuner at the xmtr site.

As for what's going on in NOLA, flyover & surviving mass media that was in place before the storm is all you get. The only route in not obliterated is now through Baton Rouge LA, & NOLA is locked down to everyone except emergency services anyway. What trickles in is horrifying.

On & on. Haven't heard from too many people.
 

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Posted by Jennifer Pan (Member # 2035) on 09-01-2005, 09:26 AM:
 
Damn... I've been really out of the loop... I don't watch TV... and to hear about this from here... then to see the gas prices shoot up... Jeez...
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 09-01-2005, 09:53 AM:
 
I have been through many hurricanes in Florida and the Caribbean and switched to shatterproof eyeglasses years ago

Category one for Miami should of not caused so much damage to power and telephone in our region. Rapid growth and cost cutting on upgrades and maintinence was obvious. We had a snapped transmission line pole to our office which ripped out our power riser and meter panels off the building...we had been waiting for two years for the pole to be replaced. The emergency power crews from Mississippi where great....sad what they have in store when they go home.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 09-01-2005, 03:22 PM:
 
Is it unreasonable to expect our federal government to just call, I don't know, Greyhound, and say "We need EVERY available bus in New Orleans right now." And where are the Army troop transports, the school buses from neighboring towns, etc? And why bus them all the way to Houston? Is there no train track between the two cities? Bus them to a train station, and load up a few trains full of people and get them moving somewhere. If not Houston, somewhere else - anywhere else.

Why was I continually looking at busses sitting parked in front of the Super Dome this morning? I don't want to hear about traffic jams tying up the busses. Clear the fuckin highway and get those things in gear. A few gun shots go off, and the whole process comes to a halt. Huh? Get the fuckin process moving already! This is embarassing.
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 09-01-2005, 04:21 PM:
 
Btw, what moron fires a gun at someone in a helicopter who's trying to rescue you? I wouldn't go in after someone like that, either. The ignorant bastards.

The question that should be asked is not, 'where are the rescuers,' but, 'why didn't they evacuate, when they had DAYS to do so?' A category 5 hurricane is bearing down on you, you live 12 ft. below sea level, and you don't consider LEAVING when a mandatory evacuation is ordered?! I know there are unfortunates and those who cannot help themselves, but realize that many of the people whining today are probably the same people who were on the news the other day saying, "We gonna ride it out. Ivf Goahd want us to die, den we gonna die."
 

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Posted by Joseph L. Kleiman (Member # 3097) on 09-01-2005, 04:50 PM:
 
In the midst of all the turmoil, debris, shooting and looting, NPR reports the following:

quote:

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R&B legend Fats Domino was missing Thursday, days after Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans, according to his long-time agent Al Embry. Embry told The Associated Press that he hadn't been able to contact the 77-year-old Domino since talking to him Sunday evening by phone. Domino had told Embry that he planned to stay at his house in New Orleans' low-lying 9th Ward with his wife, Rosemary, and their daughter.

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quote:

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(CNN) -- Rock 'n' roll pioneer Fats Domino was among the thousands of New Orleans residents plucked from rising floodwaters, his daughter said Thursday.

Karen Domino White, who lives in New Jersey, identified her father in a picture taken Monday night by a New Orleans Times-Picayune photographer.

The photograph shows Domino -- the singer behind the 1950s hits "Ain't That a Shame" and "Blueberry Hill" -- being helped off a boat near his home in the city's Lower 9th Ward.

His whereabouts since the rescue were not immediately known. Nor was there any information about his wife, Rosemary, friends said.

The neighborhood was heavily flooded when a levee failed as Katrina slammed into southeastern Louisiana and the Mississippi Gulf Coast.

Thousands are feared dead in the storm, Louisiana's governor and the mayor of New Orleans have said, though no official tally has been compiled.

White said she last heard from her father August 23, four days before the storm hit, and was unable to contact him Sunday.

"I didn't have any information. I was just praying," she said.

Writer Charles Amann said he last spoke to Domino on Sunday, and the singer refused to join the evacuation that was then under way.

"He said to me, in that wonderful Southern accent of his, that no, he was staying on -- that he had gone through the last one and he could go through this one," said Amann, who is working on a book on the early days of the "American Bandstand" television program.

Many of those evacuated from the Lower 9th Ward were taken to the Louisiana Superdome and are being transferred to the Astrodome sports stadium in Houston, Texas.

Alan Warner, an EMI Music executive, also saw the photograph of Domino's rescue. But he said he did not know where the 77-year-old singer, born Antoine Domino, was taken afterward.

"But the fact that he actually was rescued is just so gratifying," Warner said.

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quote: David Stambaugh

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I haven't heard anything about other nations offering to rush money, supplies or other assistance to us. Guess they must all be preoccupied with other things.

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quote: Mark J. Marshall

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Is it unreasonable to expect our federal government to just call, I don't know, Greyhound, and say "We need EVERY available bus in New Orleans right now." And where are the Army troop transports, the school buses from neighboring towns, etc? And why bus them all the way to Houston? Is there no train track between the two cities? Bus them to a train station, and load up a few trains full of people and get them moving somewhere. If not Houston, somewhere else - anywhere else.

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quote: Tim Reed

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Btw, what moron fires a gun at someone in a helicopter who's trying to rescue you? I wouldn't go in after someone like that, either. The ignorant bastards.

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quote:

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The question that should be asked is not, 'where are the rescuers,' but, 'why didn't they evacuate, when they had DAYS to do so?' A category 5 hurricane is bearing down on you, you live 12 ft. below sea level, and you don't consider LEAVING when a mandatory evacuation is ordered?!

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quote:

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Water Damage
Another hazard for film that can significantly shorten its life is water from floods, fire fighting, burst pipes, leaky roofs, or other such sources. (And yet, if it wasn't for water, the film could not have been processed.) You can keep water damage to a minimum through quick salvage actions. Since very few motion picture laboratories offer film cleaning services for water(and mud ) damaged film, a salvage job is usually a do it yourself project as mentioned in the following steps and requires manual skill, patience, and a lot of improvising.

1. Keep the roll of film wet. If the film dries, the convolutions may be stuck together, ruining the film. For holding wet or muddy films prior to the cleaning operation, immerse the roll completely in containers of cold water, below 18°C (65°F). The cold water will help prevent both swelling and softening of the emulsion, which are the major causes of damage.

2. With the roll completely submerged underwater, gently rub the edges of the film to remove most of the mud and silt. Make frequent water changes.

3. Unwind the wet film carefully and slowly. Pass the strand of film under running water to remove any remaining mud or silt. In extreme cases, a gentle scrubbing action with a cotton swab may be needed to remove stubborn particles. Be careful in swabbing the film because the wet emulsion is very susceptible to physical damage. From the running water, pass the film through a tank containing water and a laundry or dishwater type of water softening solution to minimize spotting. Avoid any sudden temperature changes in the wash waters.

4. Drape the film carefully on a wash line to air dry. Try to keep the drying area dust free and avoid any surface contact to the wet emulsion side of the film. When the film is dry, clean and lubricate it by hand with a suitable film cleaner, as you wind it onto a reel. The ideal way to recondition water damaged film would be to have it go through a normal motion picture processing machine while using the proper solutions for the particular damaged films. One of the companies that restores or rejuvenates films may be able to help you.

---

quote:

---

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---

 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-02-2005, 01:40 PM:
 
Unfortnately much of the poulation in New Orleans is USED to living on welfare and expects to be catered to and alwaya is looking for a handout, its a way of life down there that has gone on way too long. Hence there are a large number of folks that DON'T know how to do anything for themselves at all, so they loot, shoot, and steal what ever thay can. They are not smart enough to know that very likely they will never be able to use the TV that they just took. Now on the other hand. If it takes stealing food and water to survine you've got to do what you've got to do, but stealing merchandise like TV sets and shooting at rescuers is something that is going to take the military to control. Unfortunately with folks like that which have no values and don't even know how to comprehend to value an education let alone get one imposing martial law is ust about necessary. Of course we SHOULD blame our Government and the State of Lousiana for the breaching of the levees AND the oil companies for locating so many critical refineries in an area of that high a risk. There is simply no excuse for the flooding to have even happened on this scale and it DIDN't have to and wouldn't have happened if there were wise folk in the Government.

Mark
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-02-2005, 03:25 PM:
 
Mark said "if there were wise folk in the Government."
that has as much probablity of happening as finding "military intelligence"
Those who can can those who can't become politicians

 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-02-2005, 04:24 PM:
 
I was watching a clip of the New Orleans' mayor whining and crying on how the federal and LA state government have not done anything/enough to help that city. What an asshole!

He's blaming EVERYONE ELSE for HIS mismanagement of this whole sad situation and HIS (and his predecessor's) lack of disaster planning and emergency contingencies for a cataclysmic disaster that would ultimately come.

They have known for years that the city is prone to hurricanes AND FLOODS and should have planned ahead instead of yapping and passing the buck. The responsibility for the chaos, deaths, and civil disorder rests SOLELY on HIM and his administration!

"Fail to plan, plan to fail"

As far as the looters, that's a real hard call in this extraordinary and unprecedented situation. My 1st thought and inclination is to shoot them on sight... which I would do without hesitation IF they came on MY property.

However, one does have to cut them some slack ***IF*** they are looting stores and stealing food (which would go bad anyway) to survive. Even those that are taking shelves of food and electronics and Nike shoes may be taking them to "bargain" for food later. But, how can ya tell? It's impossible! (I am in NO way defending the looters...just commenting on the situation.)

But, there is NO excuse for those thugs running ramped that are shooting, raping (even kids), and beating-up people. Those ***assholes*** should be shot and killed on sight, and permanently taken out of the gene pool. Let their sorry asses float in the flood waters along with all the ***innocents*** that have died. I sincerely feel sorry for the "good" people and citizens that, by no choice of their own, have to endure this devastating disaster. Their/our government has failed them AND US!

Just MY 2-cents... It's a F*UCKING good thing I ain't "in charge"!

Flame off.
 

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Posted by Jeremy Jorgenson (Member # 2989) on 09-02-2005, 04:38 PM:
 
Phil, if you run, I'll vote for you

quote: Joe Redifer

---

Brad sez we can say anything we want, just as long as he can't tell which party we tend to vote for by our comments.

---

... um ... no matter which party your run for.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-02-2005, 05:43 PM:
 
Gee Jeremy, politically I'm an independent. NO particular political affiliation and no one can tell for whom I vote for since I do not kiss and tell in politics nor in sex.

And while I did throw-in my hat to run for the Governor of California in this last election, I bowed out as I had more pressing obligations and ultimately Arnold became the Governator.

The *ONLY* "party" I run for is at the local clubs...
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-02-2005, 08:46 PM:
 

quote: Phil Hill

---

They have known for years that the city is prone to hurricanes AND FLOODS and should have planned ahead instead of yapping and passing the buck.

---

Actually Phil I heard from a reliable local source that LA. had 70 million in finding pulled from Levy maintenance and upgrades by Congress last year although I can't confirm that.... Perhaps someone else here might know more about that. It seems to me that the responsibility HAS to be more accountable on a national level than on the state level. Heck there should have been two sets of Levees .... a double set somewhat like the dikes that keep the ocean out of the Netherlands. Over there I believe that they have a system of three dikes. In LA. better maintenance of the Levees alone would probably have kept the town from flooding on the scale that it did but there would still have been some (minor in comparison) flooding from the surge alone.

I can't wait to see what actor they get to portray the mayor in the upcomming Bruckheimer film disaster version...... Eddie Murphey comes to mind... he's certainly stupid enough and the part would fit him like a glove!

Mark
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-02-2005, 09:07 PM:
 
I heard that too, Mark. But what was failed to be conveyed by the local politicians to the people is that while they got "some" $$$ from congress for the dike projects, they failed to mention the shortfall and lead all the citizens to believe that all was well and OK. They wanted to appear like they were doing something so THEY would be re-elected and/or to kept their phony-baloney jobs!

NOW they all are in the cover-their-ass mode. How sad for the people.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-02-2005, 09:11 PM:
 
Yea, I wish someone would go shoot that iddiot Mayor in the ass so we don't have to listen to him. Perhaps they'll do that in the film version . We have a mayor here in SLC that has got to be his relative .

The other thing they need to do is to FORCE those poor(and stupid) people to go to school in return for their welfare checks, if they can't at least speak clear english when they come out of school then no more welfare check . And don't anyone hand me that local dialect crap, there is a big difference between the several local dialects and plain knowing how to speak.

Mark
 

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Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-02-2005, 10:18 PM:
 
As the governor of LA and the mayor of NO scream and point fingers at the feds, a few questions have come to mind.

1) Why was the mandaroy evacuation of NO voluntary?

2) Why was the city of NO not utilizing buses to evacuate people without cars? After all, they could have used these buses:


3) Why were the interstates leaving NO kept in a 2 way configuration for most of the evacuation? Traffic would have moved much faster having 6 lanes, rather then leave the 3 incomming lanes empty.

4) Why did they tells tens of thousands of people to take refuge in the Superdome yet, with the 24 hours advance notice they had, it did not occur to anyone to supply the superdome with food and water?

5) Why did the mayor of NO blame FEMA for not securing his city? FEMA is not a law enforcement agency. Why were officers not told to keep control sooner?

Really, those two just need to pipe down. With the destruction of roads, bridges, rail, and a signifigant amount of the vehicles in the area, it will take time to reach the city. The "victims" shooting at rescue helicopters, trying to steal weapons from Guardsmen, and playing sniper outside a firestation - pinning down 50 firemen - do not help the situation.

When you look at the situation there - 6 homicides in 3 days among the 20,000 at the superdome (not to mention untold numbers of rapes and assaults) - attacks on rescuers - and "victims" throwing away MREs and then complaining to reporters about not liking the food - you really have to ask what the hell is wrong with those people?
 

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Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 09-02-2005, 11:47 PM:
 
Mark:

quote:

---

The other thing they need to do is to FORCE those poor(and stupid) people to go to school in return for their welfare checks,

---

quote: Jeremy Fuentes

---

What does this have to do with anything that is happening?

---

quote: Jason Burroughs

---

but how in the WORLD to you justify the breakdown of general decency.

---

quote: Jim Ziegler

---

Why did the mayor of NO blame FEMA for not securing his city? FEMA is not a law enforcement agency. Why were officers not told to keep control sooner?

---

quote: Anslem Rayburn

---

They were pulled from that and assigned to control the crime when it became apparent that a significant minority of the population were bent on harming others.

---

quote: Leo Enticknap

---

Agreed entirely with Bobby and Stephen - it's about time Kofi Annan announced UN help for the Gulf [of Mexico, not Persia] states.

---

quote: Jim Ziegler

---

I don't know how the people in NO would react to foriegn troops assisting with the evacuations, and, with the situation, I don't know if putting foriegn troops on the ground would do anything but cause a field day in the press when one of them had to shoot someone.

---

We'll never see foreign troops in New Orleans, or any other devastated American city for that matter, since it seriously calls into question our own sovereignty and probably violates some Federal statute somewhere in 230 years of American law. Americans will unite to help out other nations with good will or organized troops, but I don't think we'd look to kindly on having other soldiers on our own soil. And as Jim suggests, could you imagine the fall out when Jim Bob or John Boy shots one simply because he looked like somebody who "knocked down MY World Trade Center".

quote: Phil Hill

---

He's blaming EVERYONE ELSE for HIS mismanagement of this whole sad situation and HIS (and his predecessor's) lack of disaster planning and emergency contingencies for a cataclysmic disaster that would ultimately come.

---

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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Yea, and then half of them turned in their badges and ran! Scared they were going to get their weenies blown off. After that many fire departments literally penned themselves in their stations to keep the thugs out and could'nt leave to put out the fires.

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quote:

---

At 5 am I saw watched a teary interview with the police chief... asking no less for them to bring in a cruise ship so he and his officers could have a little comfort...... This guy is right up there with the Mayor! Better get each a nice new Lazy-Boy!

---

quote: Aaron Mehocic

---

Intercity New Orleans would probably accept the initial shipments, then let the rest rot on the docks because it "didn't meet our expectation".

---

quote: Aaron Mehocic

---

We'll never see foreign troops in New Orleans, or any other devastated American city for that matter, since it seriously calls into question our own sovereignty and probably violates some Federal statute somewhere in 230 years of American law.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

The only difference between the chaos of New Orleans and a Third World disaster operation, he said, was that a foreign dictator would have responded better.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

genuinely heroic mayor orders a total evacuation of the city the day before Katrina arrives, knowing that for decades now, New Orleans has been living on borrowed time.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

The National Guard and federal emergency personnel stay tucked up at home.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

The havoc of Katrina had been predicted countless times on a local and federal level - even to the point where it was acknowledged that tens of thousands of the poorest residents would not be able to leave the city in advance.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

The famous levees that were breached could have been strengthened and raised at what now seems like a trifling cost of a few billion dollars.

The Bush administration, together with Congress, cut the budgets for flood protection and army engineers, while local politicians failed to generate any enthusiasm for local tax increases.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

New Orleans partied-on just hoping for the best, abandoned by anyone in national authority who could have put the money into really protecting the city.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

Meanwhile, the poorest were similarly abandoned, as the horrifying images and stories from the Superdome and Convention Center prove.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

The truth was simple and apparent to all. If journalists were there with cameras beaming the suffering live across America, where were the officers and troops?

---

quote: David Buckley

---

The nightly shootings and drugs-related homicides of recent years pointed to a small but vicious culture of largely black-on-black crime that everyone knew existed, but no-one seemed to have any real answers for.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

When President Bush told "Good Morning America" on Thursday morning that nobody could have "anticipated" the breach of the New Orleans levees, it pointed to not only a remote leader in denial, but a whole political class.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

The country has to choose whether it wants to rebuild the levees and destroyed communities, with no expense spared for the future - or once again brush off that responsibility, and blame the other guy.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

There was a mandatory evacuation, but of course, being America, you still have some freedoms, so mandatory isn't actually mandatory, just advice. Unlike, for example, Cuba, where a mandatory evacuation is exactly that.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

Foreign aid was offered from more than two dozen countries, Rice said thanks, yes, we'll accept it all, but Bush said no, we can do this. Even useful stuff like the German portable clean water extractors were turned down. The Russians got a no thanks too.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

There are some heros - A kid stole a bus and drove a hundred people to safety and it looks like he's in real trouble.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

There are some strange things, like the boss of FEMA has no actual experience of disaster management, which you would have to assume contributed to FEMAs response... Apparently FEMA have been modelling this scenario for over a decade, you would have thought they would be right up in there.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

You might have a case for bad mouthing him for stuff occuring before the event, but not anything he's done thereafter.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

My real problem is that I've seen the West Wing. I know how it works. Bartlet sees bad stuff happen on CNN, tells Leo to fix it, and CJ tells us its gonna be Ok, The Prez is on the case. Being The Prez gives you access to those kinds of resources and power. Yet there is no evidence that anything actually happened.

---

quote: David Buckley

---

But there is evidence that the USA will accept some aid - gasoline. All the countries of the IEA are going to send you gas, ready refined gas. Keep on drivin' folks...

---

So, you want us to all quit our jobs and stay home?
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-03-2005, 06:22 PM:
 
Gosh, it looks like David sez ***WAY*** more dumbass stuff than I do...
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-03-2005, 07:40 PM:
 
David's post consists mainly of a quote from a BBC Online article. While, IMHO, BBC journalism has many strengths - the speed at which its correspondents can get news out of problematic situations, and the high level of factual accuracy in that news being the main ones - it also has weaknesses. I don't want to point this thread into dangerous ground, so all I'll say is that one often repeated criticism of BBC news reporting is its left of centre political outlook. I'm simply saying that this criticism exists - not offering an opinion as to whether or not I think it's justified.

If what I'm reading, watching and hearing some 4,500 miles from the disaster zone is right, there are questions that need to be asked about why it took the best part of a week for the authorities to understand the scale of the disaster, given that there was a forewarning. But that's for future enquiries and, possibly, elections - surely the priority now must be to evacuate the remaining refugees, work out how to provide a home and a chance to to earn a living for them in the coming months, and then get New Orleans drained and repairs underway.
 

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Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-03-2005, 07:47 PM:
 
There definately needs to be a major after action review of this, as mistakes have been made, stuff has been over looked, etc. But, to be fair, no one has ever had to deal with the evacuation of a city of this size.

Any examination needs to move beyond fault finding and needs to focus on what changes need to be made to allow things to move faster (for example, it is being reported now that some guard units from other states were delayed 24-48 hours because of questions regarding the legality of sending in Guard troops from other states for law enforcement activites).
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-03-2005, 07:51 PM:
 
Oh OK Leo... I'll add the POS BBC to my post...
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 09-03-2005, 08:13 PM:
 
Nevada's Task Force One being one of those. They've been cooped up in a Dallas hotel for the last couple of days waiting for FEMA to let them into the disaster area. This after driving for 31 hours straight from 'Vegas in convoy earlier in the week. So much for quick response.
 

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Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-03-2005, 08:19 PM:
 
What is Task Force One Paul? Did FEMA say why they were being delayed?
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-03-2005, 08:29 PM:
 
The experts in dealing with disasters like this are always the people watching it on TV on the other side of the country, or the world. DAMN! They're never at the site of the disaster where we really need them. The poor bastards actually dealing with the problem and who are expected to fix it NOW are ALWAYS incompetent. (where's the sarcasm smiley?)

Last night on FOX Geraldo and Shepherd (sp?) Smith were covering the story in a mostly hysterical manner, especially Geraldo, shouting and sweating and holding a baby etc. What happened to reporting the news, rather than being the news? This was followed by other commentators claiming "Things are getting better today". I'm so confused.

If you have this many people in a 95-degree 100% humidity environment who are now homeless, with no food, no water, no sanitation, no air conditioning, no transportation, and they're surrounded by sewage and dead bodies, and nobody appears to be in charge, this is what you get. Doesn't matter much if it's New Orleans or Seattle.

I made the largest cash donation I could afford to the Red Cross. Though I'm sure someone will jump in now to tell me I'm a fool because the money will just be used to pad the bank account of some Red Cross official.
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 09-03-2005, 08:39 PM:
 
Nevada Task Force 1

Don't know any more at this point. They rolled out of here in a big hurry expecting to be given their destination and assignment while enroute. Channel 8 News has two of their people riding along and reporting as they go. It's been very frustrating for everyone--the reporters don't have a story to report on and the firefighters don't have anything to do except try to stay sharp. Pictures from the hotel show several other fire & rescue crews from SoCal in the same boat.

The hotel has an anime and comic convention going on as well. Some of the pics of the firefighters' reactions to the various cosplayers are pretty funny.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-03-2005, 08:48 PM:
 

quote: Paul Mayer

---

They've been cooped up in a Dallas hotel for the last couple of days waiting for FEMA to let them into the disaster area.

---

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

---

Thats easy....
You have ALOT of people there that don't know HOW to appreciate anything because they have NO values, heck they don't even know what the words VALUE or decency mean or how to properly pronounce them. Remember they have a LIMITED vocabulary to begin with.... If you received a free handout all your life would you appreciate anything?

---

quote: David Buckley

---

(Edit: For a sure cure for Phil's low blood pressure, try this article, which is rather more extreme: German Minister's remarks irk USA )

---

quote: David Buckley

---

But, there is a serious response to your question. How much can you afford to pay for gas before you will not be able to afford to drive to work, and thus you wont have a job? That time will come...

---

quote:

---

Yeah! Goddamn them for coming from an area of poverty! What the hell were they thinking, living in an area where they weren't able to get a good education, even if the government wanted them to! Let's make fun of them and say "Ha ha! You died because you're stupid! Sucks for you, you greedy welfare-getting bastards! Oh yeah, and not only are you dumb, but you're incapable of human decency and how to speak properly because you talk differently than I do!"

---

quote: Kyle McEachern

---

Seriously, what the hell are you doing making a comment like that about people who are DYING and suffering from INJURY and DISEASE and LOSS OF EVERYTHING THEY OWN...

---

quote: Jim Ziegler

---

I hope his comments are the final straw and we withdrawl ALL U.S. Military from Germany - and then make similar comments when their economy recesses...

---

It already has, and big time. The German economy is almost into deflation territory, with virtually zero economic growth and unemployment at 12% and rising. If what I'm reading is in any way accurate, Gerhard Schröder's government (in which Jürgen Trittin is a minister) is being held responsible for this by a large proportion of the electorate. There is a general election coming in just over a fortnight's time, which the centre-right Christian Democrat party, led by Angela Merkel, is widely expected to win. Therefore I think it would be safe to speculate that Trittin's rant can be seen as a crude electioneering stunt. Opposition to the Iraq war is about the one and only policy of the Schröder government which has any significant public support in Germany, which I guess is why Trittin is attacking the US government.
 

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Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-04-2005, 06:41 AM:
 
It does seem like France and Germany take any chance they get to try and take a stab at the US. I find it interesting that they are criticizing US economic and environmental policy when the US economy is night and day stronger than theirs.. On a positive note, the collapse of the German economy is, historically, prelude to an invastion of France.

Seriosuly, I find it annoying that, with everything that has happend in the past, and all the nations we have gone to the wall to help, that there is only a handful of nations that the US can always rely on to have our back (the UK being one of those nations).
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-04-2005, 07:49 AM:
 

quote: Kyle McEachern

---

Seriously, what the hell are you doing making a comment like that about people who are DYING and suffering from INJURY and DISEASE and LOSS OF EVERYTHING THEY OWN...AS YOU TYPE YOUR A**HOLE REMARKS? I don't think there's any situation in which I'll understand the thought process there.

Just...wow.

---

quote: Jim Ziegler

---

Two words Kyle - personal responsibility. It is not the states responsibility to make sure your life is peachy. If you choose to work and better your lot in life you can - if you want to be lazy, then it won't happen.

---

EXACTLY but Kyle is apparently oblivious to this sort of lifestyle

Don't forget Kyle that the N.O. area is the largest single receipient of Welfare checks, has the MOST corrupt government of ANY city in the U.S., hence those people didn't buy their belongings... they got them free of charge and for many, many years.... Its obvious Kyle that you have not taken on the RESPONSIBILITY to KNOW what REALLY goes on in this country.

Indeed, this N.O.'s flood has definately flushed out the real rats down there.... And perhaps in a few other areas that aren't even close by as well.

Mark
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-04-2005, 09:59 AM:
 
Never mind, my comments were not helpful, so I deleted them.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-04-2005, 12:05 PM:
 
I would agree with Mark that New Orleans does have more than its fair share of "rats".

My sympathies are with the elderly and disabled folks who had no way of leaving the New Orleans area. I don't have quite the same level for all the able bodied folks that stayed. With all the warning that was given, and the still vivid memories of the Tsumani disaster in SE Asia just a few months ago, making a decision to stay in the area was very foolhardy.

Still, what's done is done and hopefully the National Guard, FEMA, Red Cross and everyone else who can help will get all these people the help they need.

My biggest hope is that this disaster in New Orleans may teach a lot of us a lesson about what can happen. Our grasp on "civilization" is a very tenuous grasp. It teeters on a balance all the time. The mistake all the poor, uneducated folks made was just taking that civilization for granted.

My father talked about how the Army and Marines were able to evacuate 1 million people from Saigon. But there was a key difference. The U.S. military simply gave those folks in Saigon a clear warning. Many walked out of that city on foot. They didn't wait for a bus to drive them out of the area.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-04-2005, 12:47 PM:
 

quote: Jim Ziegler

---

It does seem like France and Germany take any chance they get to try and take a stab at the US. I find it interesting that they are criticizing US economic and environmental policy when the US economy is night and day stronger than theirs.

---

quote: The Sunday Times (today)

---

Schröder will play US card in TV duel
Justin Sparks, Celle, Lower Saxony

GERMANY’S election reaches a decisive stage tonight with a television debate in which Chancellor Gerhard Schröder will accuse Angela Merkel, his conservative challenger, of being too close to Washington and of having a hidden agenda to undermine the welfare state.

Schröder, whose opposition to the Iraq war helped him to a narrow re-election win in 2002, is expected to play the anti-American card again, depicting Merkel as a closet “neoconservative” like those around President George W Bush.

He may also seek to portray her as a German Margaret Thatcher bent on introducing radical economic reforms that would cut workers’ rights and reduce welfare benefits.

An estimated 20m people — a third of voters — are expected to watch the debate, seen as a last chance for Schröder, a polished television performer, to close his Christian Democrat rival’s commanding double-digit lead in the run-up to voting on September 18.

Preparations for the 90- minute encounter — the candidates’ only one-to-one confrontation of the campaign — have been characterised by wrangling over everything from the position of their podiums to camera angles.

Much of the chancellor’s fire will be directed not at Merkel herself, however, but at Paul Kirchhof, a relatively unknown university professor she wants as her finance minister. Kirchhof was catapulted to the centre of the campaign in July after making radical proposals to sweep away Germany’s highly complex tax system and replace it with a simple 25% flat tax. Last week, he dropped another bombshell by arguing for the privatisation of Germany’s generous state pension system.

Although applauded by economists, such ideas have alarmed many voters and have been rejected by some senior members of Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU).

Merkel has been evasive about whether the ideas, which are not in the party programme, will be implemented if she wins — allowing Schröder to suggest she is not being entirely honest. “Kirchof is the German arm of the American neocons . . . who were also responsible for the Iraq war,” said Michael Müller, the vice-chairman of Schröder’s Social Democratic party (SDP) last week. “Kirchhof is a byword for the total dismantling of the social state.”

The chancellor gave a foretaste of the tactics he is likely to use in tonight’s debate at a rally in Celle, in his home state of Lower Saxony, on Friday night, when he dismissed Kirchhof as the “Merkel whisperer”. “We have to fight to keep Merkel and her eccentric professor at bay,” he told an enthusiastic crowd. “She says she wants to try out her ideas — I say, you can’t turn our nation into a laboratory for experimental tests on animals.”

The Schröder camp’s hopes of a post-debate “bounce” have been raised by polls suggesting the SDP, stuck for weeks at around 30%, has risen to 32%, even though the CDU still commands 43%. The chancellor will take some comfort from the commanding lead in personal popularity he enjoys over Merkel. “This election will be decided in the last few days of the campaign,” said Peter Struck, the defence minister and confidant of the chancellor, in an interview. “Schröder is better than Merkel and the TV duel will kick-start a new, intense phase in our campaign.”

It emerged last week that Merkel has been coached by Alexander Niemetz, a former television news reader. He is believed to have advised her to slow her machinegun delivery, use softer hand actions and, most importantly, smile but avoid her trademark grin. “She can’t compete with Schröder’s charm factor and shouldn’t aim to be liked more than him,” said Jürgen Falter, a prominent political commentator. “But the chancellor has nothing to offer but fear of what she’s planning, so she needs to make clear that she’s the only one with answers.”

Although tonight’s clash is the sole “duel” between the candidates, it was announced last week they would share a stage with other party leaders on September 12. The one-to-one debate is seen as their critical encounter, however, and the minutiae of its arrangements were still being hammered out up to the last moment.

Schröder will be asked the first question, but Merkel will have the last word, and two of the four journalists asking the questions will be women. It has also been agreed the 10 cameras will show the candidates only from the front and side — and not the back. Merkel will be relieved: she has revealed that she is uncomfortable with her “frumpy” figure.

THE UNDECIDED

When Dieter Siebert watches Angela Merkel take on Gerhard Schröder in tonight’s television debate, he will be one of up to 30m voters thought still not to have made up their minds, writes Justin Sparks.

Like many Germans, Siebert, a 59-year-old nurse, is convinced his country needs a new government but fears Merkel might introduce changes that would make life too painful. “I’m worried she might turn into the German version of Margaret Thatcher,” he said.

Rival candidates should heed the opinions of Siebert and others like him in Celle, a town in Schröder’s home state of Lower Saxony. For the past quarter of a century they have always voted for the winning party.

A panel of undecided voters convened by The Sunday Times suggested many did not know what Merkel stood for. Sebastian Bierman, 32, a lawyer, was concerned that she would not be able to stand up to more experienced leaders such as Tony Blair. “Whether you like him or not Schröder has the guts to put our interests before Washington,” he said.

But support for Schröder was waning at the Schweine-Schulze, his favourite bar. The landlord said: “He’s one of us and we trust him, but the feeling is that his party is not with him.

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“I’m worried she might turn into the German version of Margaret Thatcher,” he said.

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Sebastian Bierman, 32, a lawyer, was concerned that she would not be able to stand up to more experienced leaders such as Tony Blair. “Whether you like him or not Schröder has the guts to put our interests before Washington,” he said.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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My sympathies are with the elderly and disabled folks who had no way of leaving the New Orleans area.

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Exactly Bobby and well put! Leaving these folks behind is plainly the fault of the mayor of N.O. and the gpvernment of the state of LA,. They had at least 48 hours notice to get em out of there.

Mark
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-04-2005, 04:47 PM:
 
The possible next catastrophic area in the US is the San Andreas Fault in California. If that ever went, California would be split in half, creating a new island.

True, be always prepared and heed warnings since we have no power over Mother Nature.

-Monte
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-04-2005, 05:25 PM:
 
Oh boy, here we go again...

IF you would take the time to learn about the San Andreas fault, you would know that fault is not a vertical heave fault but a horizontal slip fault. Which means Los Angeles will someday be a suburb of San Francisco since the west side of the fault is moving horizontally north. To the dismay and disappointment of some, California will not fall into the Pacific Ocean and make beachfront property in Las Vegas.

The San Andreas is where the Pacific plate joins the North American plate and the EQ system is sometimes referred to as the "Ring of Fire"...just like the IMAX film documents.

While it is inevitable that there will be more major EQs in SoCal, the local government here is way prepared for a major disaster as was exhibited during the 1994 Northridge quake. Granted an EQ, no matter how big would NOT be as widespread as Katrina's devastation, but nonetheless, I think out local and state government has planned for disaster adequately.
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Mark, Jim, and Bobby: I somewhat agree with your points, but I think Kyle has some valid points as well...although understandably, he expressed them too emotionally. I certainly do feel sorry for the elderly, infirmed, and those honest and "good" people that, for whatever reason and no matter their economic or "class" status are trapped in a very serious and dangerous situation. I would be scared shitless if it were me.

As far as being "poor" and/or "uneducated", while I DO think in many cases it IS laziness, I also think that a lot of those that are "poor" have never had an oppertunituty to "better themselves". I don't think one can paint "ALL" with the same wide brush.
 

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Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 09-04-2005, 07:18 PM:
 
No Phil, its because they cant read because they dont live in Salt Lake City.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-04-2005, 07:23 PM:
 
Did anyone notice the HUNDREDS of flooded school buses that could have moved thousands to high ground? Louis
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-04-2005, 07:27 PM:
 
(Sorry Phil, didn't know my geological history too well, but thx for the info...)

But, if that does happen, there's gonna be earthquakes felt all along this side of the divide and do some serious damage practically everywhere.
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 09-04-2005, 08:56 PM:
 
The Nevada TF-1 group is still stuck in Dallas waiting. Seems FEMA thinks there's enough crews working the disaster area now, so Nevada and SoCal's groups are now waiting to rotate in on the next wave. Which is fine, but very frustrating when those groups were ordered by FEMA to hit the road so quickly in the first place.

Same thing happened today to another rescue group of 50 police officers from all of the commands in southern Nevada. FEMA called Friday for them to move immediately. Just as the team was going to roll this afternoon, FEMA cancelled the mission. Again, very frustrating.
 

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Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-05-2005, 06:22 AM:
 
After some Corps of Engineers contractors came under fire in NO today, I can see FEMA's hesitation to send in civilians...
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 09-05-2005, 06:24 AM:
 

quote: Richard Fowler

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Category one for Miami should of not caused so much damage to power and telephone in our region

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quote: Mark J. Marshall

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Is it unreasonable to expect our federal government to just call, I don't know, Greyhound, and say "We need EVERY available bus in New Orleans right now." And where are the Army troop transports, the school buses from neighboring towns, etc?

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quote: Mark J. Marshall

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And why bus them all the way to Houston? Is there no train track between the two cities? Bus them to a train station, and load up a few trains full of people and get them moving somewhere.

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quote:

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The question that should be asked is not, 'where are the rescuers,' but, 'why didn't they evacuate, when they had DAYS to do so?' A category 5 hurricane is bearing down on you, you live 12 ft. below sea level, and you don't consider LEAVING when a mandatory evacuation is ordered?!

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quote:

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Is it unreasonable to expect our federal government to just call, I don't know, Greyhound, and say "We need EVERY available bus in New Orleans right now." And where are the Army troop transports, the school buses from neighboring towns, etc? And why bus them all the way to Houston? Is there no train track between the two cities? Bus them to a train station, and load up a few trains full of people and get them moving somewhere. If not Houston, somewhere else - anywhere else.

Realize Mark, a great deal of the train tracks, trains, busses, Search and Rescue choppers, militart equipment, etc in the area were damaged or destroyed by Katrina.

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quote: Gordon McLeod

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Canada yesterday offered any assistance required including military (peacekeepers) and have relief supplies ready but the offer was turned down for the moment

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quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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Of course we SHOULD blame our Government and the State of Lousiana for the breaching of the levees

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quote:

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I was watching a clip of the New Orleans' mayor whining and crying on how the federal and LA state government have not done anything/enough to help that city. What an asshole!

He's blaming EVERYONE ELSE for HIS mismanagement of this whole sad situation and HIS (and his predecessor's) lack of disaster planning and emergency contingencies for a cataclysmic disaster that would ultimately come.

They have known for years that the city is prone to hurricanes AND FLOODS and should have planned ahead instead of yapping and passing the buck. The responsibility for the chaos, deaths, and civil disorder rests SOLELY on HIM and his administration!

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quote:

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Yea, I wish someone would go shoot that iddiot Mayor in the ass [thumbsup] so we don't have to listen to him. Perhaps they'll do that in the film version

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quote: Jim Ziegler

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1) Why was the mandaroy evacuation of NO voluntary?

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quote:

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2) Why was the city of NO not utilizing buses to evacuate people without cars? After all, they could have used these buses:

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quote: Jim Ziegler

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3) Why were the interstates leaving NO kept in a 2 way configuration for most of the evacuation? Traffic would have moved much faster having 6 lanes, rather then leave the 3 incomming lanes empty

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quote: Jim Ziegler

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4) Why did they tells tens of thousands of people to take refuge in the Superdome yet, with the 24 hours advance notice they had, it did not occur to anyone to supply the superdome with food and water?

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quote:

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5) Why did the mayor of NO blame FEMA for not securing his city? FEMA is not a law enforcement agency. Why were officers not told to keep control sooner?}
NOLA police were overseeing rescues AND stretching to cover law enforcement. FEMA in ITS PUBLISHED PLAN sends in the National Guard to assist in a declared emergency because the task is huge. NOLA police were doing incredible work with rescues ALONE.

quote: Jim Ziegler

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The NOPD (hmmm... NO PD.. it fits) has been one of the most corrupt departments in the nation.

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After what? NY, Detroit, LA, Chicago, any large American city? They've been hanging on the job as best they could,
there are now suicides & other
problems with mental strain from dealing with this apocalyptic mess, & quite frankly, they've had a job any
armchair gasbag has never had to DREAM of facing.

[QUOTE=Jim Ziegler]I have heard interviews with both the mayor and the police chief. They think that the way to solve the crisis is to scream and finger point. All they manage to do is make it harder for federal and state agencies to work with them.

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quote:

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I did hear on the news last night the Canada was sending police officers to assist in some areas though. Also, other nations do have specialists and supplies as well.[/URL]
I think even a sloppy self-serving memory may recall Gordon McLeod's mention earlier that Canada's offer was turned down. Maybe they'll take them up on it after a few hundred more people die or more infrastructure is destroyed.

quote: Jim Ziegler

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The mayor could have done much more to prepare the city for this and minimize loss of life. The city did *NOTHING* to evacuate people who could not leave the city on their own - and then this mayor has the gall to point at Bush and say its all his fault. America is not a nanny state. Local governments and citizens are expected to do what they can to care for their own needs.

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No, you're wrong again, but you must be used to that by now. In a state of emergency now, the plan & operation are controlled by FEMA, which is now under the Department of Homeland Security, & much of it cannot be activated without authorization of the President, like deployment of Guard troops & the army. Yes, there was an emergency plan, drawn up by NOLA & FEMA.

[QUOTE=Jim Ziegler]The National Guard is under state control (besides, deploying them before the storm would have rendered those units largely incapable of performing their mission). FEMA and federal troops can do little until the state requests it, but, again, prepositioning units and equipment would have resulted in destroyed equipment and ineffective units

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quote: Jim Ziegler

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It takes time to mobilize Guardsman as well - they are not active duty troops on a base - and time to get ships, aricraft, and vehicles together and deployed.

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quote:

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quote: David Buckley When President Bush told "Good Morning America" on Thursday morning that nobody could have "anticipated" the breach of the New Orleans levees, it pointed to not only a remote leader in denial, but a whole political class.

I don't think anyone in power, from the mayor on up, actually expected that levy to break. After all, the storm had lost power and took a swing to the east - everyone thought NO was going to dodge the bullet.

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quote:

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quote: David Buckley There are some strange things, like the boss of FEMA has no actual experience of disaster management, which you would have to assume contributed to FEMAs response... Apparently FEMA have been modelling this scenario for over a decade, you would have thought they would be right up in there.

I can't speak to the resume of the head of FEMA, but, agency heads are typically beureucratic posts - which means frequently they are more administrators than anything.

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quote: Phil Hill

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.Oft times unsolicited "help" contributes to the confusion and drains resources of those that are "in charge" and trying to get a handle on the situation. Until someone coordinates physical help and donated supplies, help can best be provided by cash contributions to legitimate causes

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quote: Phil Hill

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As far as being "poor" and/or "uneducated", while I DO think in many cases it IS laziness, I also think that a lot of those that are "poor" have never had an oppertunituty to "better themselves". I don't think one can paint "ALL" with the same wide brush.

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quote: William Hooper

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Because they're all being kept out by FEMA, for reasons nobody can get out of them. FEMA is now under the Department of Homeland Security.

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quote: William Hooper

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There has since been after the mayor of New Orleans told the feds to "get off their asses" ONE 7-car Amtrak train run on 9/2 to Lafayette LA.

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quote:

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Most of them are people living check-to-check, with no resources to leave. A few elected to stay, but most couldn't get out. The traffic out of NOLA was so slow during the evacuation, even with inboud lanes of the interstate diverted to also be outbound, that it became a 4 hour drive from downtown just to the airport,

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quote: William Hooper

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the order was given for everyone to just hang on & the Superdome was opened as a shelter of last resort.

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quote: William Hooper

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How fast could you evacuate Chicago?

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quote: William Hooper

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This is just gassing away at guessing. The interstate, all lanes, between New Orleans & Baton Rouge was completely passable.

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quote: William Hooper

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This was how all the press got in, who are apparently the only people FEMA was afraid to stop.

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quote: William Hooper

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There's lots of video of the long, lonely stretches of interstate between New Orleans & BTR after the hurricane.

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quote: William Hooper

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National Guard & relief could & SHOULD have been streaming into NOLA.

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quote: William Hooper

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The Red Cross was ordered by FEMA to stay out

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quote: William Hooper

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then the OMB slashed their funding for the last 2 years

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quote: William Hooper

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No, FEMA is above him when an emergency is declared. Local agencies, like Parish Presidents, have begun defying FEMA orders & even turning back Federal agents & National Guard personnel acting on orders from FEMA to cut power, cease rescues, etc.

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quote:

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National Guard has ALWAYS been called out to assist rescues & maintain order in emergencies in hurricanes, etc.,

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quote: William Hooper

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I don't know how it's playing elsewhere, but across party lines down here, the mayor of New Orleans is showing himself to be the only straightforward person in charge of anything out there.

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quote: William Hooper

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the Guard units can't deploy without authorization from the President

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quote: William Hooper

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Because they couldn't get everyone out in time.

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quote: William Hooper

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Because the citizens with private transportation got on the roads first, & even THEY couldn't all get out

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quote: William Hooper

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They did. Contraflow evacuation plans

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quote: William Hooper

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"Why wasn't the Superdome stocked 24 hours in advance with enough food & water for 20,000 people to live on for a week?"

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quote:

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After what? NY, Detroit, LA, Chicago, any large American city? They've been hanging on the job as best they could,

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quote: William Hooper

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they've had a job any
armchair gasbag has never had to DREAM of facing.

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quote: William Hooper

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The Federal agencies are working AGAINST them, ignoring their requests, getting nothing doen

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quote: William Hooper

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apparently the
only way to get anything moving is to publicly list EVERY problem, & publicly identify BY NAME the department
or person responsible. That's finger-pointing & name-calling.

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quote: William Hooper

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No, you're wrong again, but you must be used to that by now. In a state of emergency now, the plan & operation are controlled by FEMA, which is now under the Department of Homeland Security, & much of it cannot be activated without authorization of the President, like deployment of Guard troops & the army. Yes, there was an emergency plan, drawn up by NOLA & FEMA.

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quote: William Hooper

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They were on standby when the state of emergency was declared.

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quote: William Hooper

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EVERYBODY expected the possibility of a levee breech in a category 3 storm; that's what the levee was ORIGINALLY rated for by the corps of engineers. That possibility was included in the disaster plan created & filed by FEMA. You quite literally are making stuff up.

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quote: William Hooper

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They weren't doing a thing but consolidating control. Nothing was happening for THREE DAYS of no food, water, or organized rescue, while the feds stopped locals & folks from outside from doing anything, either.

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quote: William Hooper

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I'm absoloutely sure of Zeigler's party affiliation & who he voted for, he's blowing smoke. Brad can't tell who I voted for, I'm an independent.

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quote:

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The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor.

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quote:

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Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.

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quote:

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Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.

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quote:

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Blanco made two moves Saturday that protected her independence from the federal government: She created a philanthropic fund for the state's victims and hired James Lee Witt, Federal Emergency Management Agency director in the Clinton administration, to advise her on the relief effort.

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Yep.. preventing unified command and control... that sure will help matters...

quote:

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In a Washington briefing, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said one reason federal assets were not used more quickly was "because our constitutional system really places the primary authority in each state with the governor."

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quote:

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New Orleans City Council President Oliver Thomas acknowledged that the city was surprised by the number of refugees left behind, but he said FEMA should have been prepared to assist.

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quote:

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State officials had planned to turn to neighboring states for help with troops, transportation and equipment in a major hurricane. But in Katrina's case, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida were also overwhelmed, said Denise Bottcher, a Blanco spokesman.

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quote:

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The boatmen who made it in came back with harrowing memories. Kenny, who did not want to disclose his last name, said friends were shot at by stranded people who wanted to steal their boats. "It's total chaos," he said.

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quote:

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9,500 have been rescued by the Coast Guard.

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quote:

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Regular military troops are constrained by law from engaging in domestic law enforcement. By contrast, Guard troops, who are under the command of state governors, have no such constraints.

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Posse Comitatus, William....

[ 09-05-2005, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Jim Ziegler ]
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-05-2005, 05:40 PM:
 
Jim and William, please take the current discussion between the two of you offline directly via private emails. When you have to quote each other in that kind of quantities over such a sensitive issue, that should be a tipoff.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-05-2005, 05:42 PM:
 
Aw...just when it was getting good AND I wasn't involved!
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-05-2005, 06:45 PM:
 
I agree, Steve!

Hey! Grand-Poo-BAH, you can be SUCH a killjoy! And just when things were getting interesting, you make threats!

I say let them battle it out...they both have some great points and some ass-hole ones...
 

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Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-05-2005, 06:48 PM:
 

quote:

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Aw...just when it was getting good AND I wasn't involved!

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Awww.. I'll fight with you later...
 

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Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 09-05-2005, 06:57 PM:
 
I was going to offer to be the referee and hold a film-tech.com boxing match. I had just lined up Walker Texas Ranger to be in one of the corners.

Now I feel used. Sniff, Sniff.

Oh! Well back to the jokes....
 

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Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 09-05-2005, 10:35 PM:
 
New York City received a request for 50 police squad cars with at least two officers in each. The caravan of 100 eager police volunteers, male and female, some of whom speak creole, were soon dispatched, flashing lights blazing; they arrived quickly in New Orleans, and are presently helping secure the streets.

Mayor Bloomberg echoed the sentiments of the officers by thanking the services of many states who came to NYC after the 9/11 disaster, including many from Louisiana. Seems many New Yorkers were born in N.O. and environs, and the officers jumped at the opportunity to reciprocate assistance.

A request was made also, for 300 NYC firefighters, who were quickly dispatched by air, and are assisting the search and rescue operations in N.O. [In NYC fire personnel are first responders in medical and all other emergencies, and are trained as EMS workers as well as firefighters.]

The NY officers were quickly federalized for service to permit them to serve out of state in their NYC uniforms and vehicles.
 

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Posted by Joseph L. Kleiman (Member # 3097) on 09-06-2005, 01:51 AM:
 
CTV (which I'm having to watch for my nightly news since CBC, on which I watch The National has decided to do everything like the BBC, including the current walkout ) is reporting that Canada is sending three naval vessels, a Coast Guard vessel and forty naval divers to New Orleans. My conspiracy theorist friends tell me it's just the latest stage of a planned takeover of our country that also includes Cirque du Soleil, IMAX, and those robotic arms that NASA uses.
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 09-06-2005, 02:05 AM:
 
Celine Dion too. Along with four Cirque units in town she's been softening up 'Vegas for a couple of years now, occupying the same space where the Caesars Palace Omnimax once stood.

Nevada TF-1 finally got the word to go and they're rolling right now from Dallas into The Big Easy. The second wave of 100 officers from Nevada is still waiting here, having been put on hold yesterday. They expect to get their orders to move out tomorrow.
 

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Posted by Joseph L. Kleiman (Member # 3097) on 09-06-2005, 02:08 AM:
 
Search for the Great Sharks in Caesar's Omnimax or A New Day with Celine Dion....I fell asleep during both.

That's great news about TF-1. I'm sure the comics convention was driving them nuts.
 

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Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 09-06-2005, 05:58 AM:
 
There was clear ineptitude on the local government including the mayor. Dozens of busses were left unused and the complete lack of planning for such an event is just about everyone's fault. I hold local government even moreso to blame than the federal government for this poor outcome of the evacuation.

What's ironic is the people most directly responsible for this mistake are the very same ones loudly pointing the finger at Bush...
 

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Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-06-2005, 06:34 AM:
 
I have found in just about ever crisis situation, the first person who starts the finger pointing and ranting and raving is usually the most scared about being blamed...

Although I am firmly convinced that the majority of the fault of the chaos of the evacuation was due to mistakes and oversights in local government, I am more concerned that any investigations into the response to the disaster focus on what can be learned from what happened and how to prevent it, and not so much whose head must roll. People panic and make mistakes - especially in a situation like this with no parellel in American history.
 

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Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 09-06-2005, 12:59 PM:
 
Here's a good, well-reasoned article which appears today on the New York Times' site:

September 6, 2005
Magic Marker Strategy
By JOHN TIERNEY
Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

It was the climax of George W. Bush's video introduction at the Republican convention: the moment at Yankee Stadium during the 2001 World Series when he threw a pitch all the way to home plate. The video ended, and the conventioneers cheered as Mr. Bush strode onto a stage shaped like a pitcher's mound.

Well, live by the pitch, die by the pitch. When you campaign as the man on the mound, the great leader whose arm rescues Americans in their moment of need, they expect you to deal with a hurricane, too.

Mr. Bush made a lot of mistakes last week, but most of his critics are making an even bigger one now by obsessing about what he said and did. We can learn more by listening to men like Jim Judkins, particularly when he explains the Magic Marker method of disaster preparedness.

Mr. Judkins is one of the officials in charge of evacuating the Hampton Roads region around Newport News, Va. These coastal communities, unlike New Orleans, are not below sea level, but they're much better prepared for a hurricane. Officials have plans to run school buses and borrow other buses to evacuate those without cars, and they keep registries of the people who need special help.

Instead of relying on a "Good Samaritan" policy - the fantasy in New Orleans that everyone would take care of the neighbors - the Virginia rescue workers go door to door. If people resist the plea to leave, Mr. Judkins told The Daily Press in Newport News, rescue workers give them Magic Markers and ask them to write their Social Security numbers on their body parts so they can be identified.

"It's cold, but it's effective," Mr. Judkins explained.

That simple strategy could have persuaded hundreds of people to save their own lives in New Orleans. What the city needed most was coldly effective local leaders, not a president in Washington who could feel their pain. It's the same lesson we should have learned from Sept. 11 and other disasters, yet both liberals and conservatives keep ignoring it.

The liberals bewailing the insensitivity and racism of Republicans in Washington sound like a bad rerun of the 1960's, when urban riots were blamed on everyone but the rioters and the police. Yes, the White House did a terrible job of responding to Katrina, but Democratic leaders in New Orleans and Louisiana didn't even fulfill their basic duties.

In coastal Virginia - which, by the way, has a large black population and plenty of Republican politicians - Mr. Judkins and his colleagues assume that it's their job to evacuate people, maintain order and stockpile supplies to last for 72 hours, until federal help arrives. In New Orleans, the mayor seemed to assume all that was beyond his control, just like the mayors in the 1960's who let the riots occur.

They said their cities couldn't survive without help from Washington, which proceeded to shower inner cities with money and programs that did more damage than the riots. Cities didn't recover until some mayors, especially Republicans like Rudy Giuliani, tried self-reliance.

Mr. Giuliani was called heartless and racist for cutting the welfare rolls and focusing on crime reduction, but black neighborhoods were the greatest beneficiaries of his policies. He was criticized for ignoring social services as he concentrated on reorganizing the Police and Fire Departments, but his cold effectiveness made the city a more livable place and kept it calm after Sept. 11.

Yet Mr. Bush, with approval from conservatives who should have known better, reacted to Sept. 11 by centralizing disaster planning in Washington. He created the byzantine Homeland Security Department, with predictable results last week.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency, often criticized for ineptitude, became even less efficient after it was swallowed by a bureaucracy consumed with terrorism. The department has spent billions on new federal airport screeners - with no discernible public benefit - while giving short shrift to natural disasters.

The federal officials who had been laboring on a one-size-fits-all strategy were unprepared for the peculiarities of New Orleans, like the high percentage of people without cars. The local officials who knew about that problem didn't do anything about it - and then were furious when Mr. Bush didn't solve it for them. Why didn't the man on the mound come through for them?

It's a fair question as they go door to door looking for bodies. But so is this: Why didn't they go door to door last week with Magic Markers?

Email: tierney@nytimes.com

-- end of article

Ron Yost, moderate in all things.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 09-06-2005, 01:09 PM:
 
Well, at least Sean Penn is down there doing what he can...



Link (found this on Drudge)

Text:
Sean Penn's rescue bid sinks
From correspondents in New Orleans
05sep05

EFFORTS by Hollywood actor Sean Penn to aid New Orleans victims stranded by Hurricane Katrina foundered badly overnight, when the boat he was piloting to launch a rescue attempt sprang a leak.

Penn had planned to rescue children waylaid by Katrina's flood waters, but apparently forgot to plug a hole in the bottom of the vessel, which began taking water within seconds of its launch.

The actor, known for his political activism, was seen wearing what appeared to be a white flak jacket and frantically bailing water out of the sinking vessel with a red plastic cup.

When the boat's motor failed to start, those aboard were forced to use paddles to propel themselves down the flooded New Orleans street.

Asked what he had hoped to achieve in the waterlogged city, the actor replied: "Whatever I can do to help."

With the boat loaded with members of Penn's entourage, including a personal photographer, one bystander taunted the actor: "How are you going to get any people in that thing?"
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-06-2005, 03:12 PM:
 
Thank God for Sean Penn. He is so important. The world could not survive without his activism. Sean Penn. Yeah. He is great. Look at that giant cup of water he is getting out of New Orleans. Louisiana will be a dryer state much quicker thanks to the likes of Sean Penn the important actor.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-06-2005, 03:23 PM:
 
Wouldn't everyone be better off if Sean Penn didn't futz with the publicity stunt and instead just donated 10 million dollars or something to the Red Cross?

Oh no wait...publicity stunt! Geez, what was I thinking.
 

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Posted by Joseph L. Kleiman (Member # 3097) on 09-06-2005, 04:25 PM:
 
Next thing to happen will be Oprah giving a brand new car to everyone from the Ninth Ward.

Speaking of which, the three major US car companies are giving a 90-day leeway on car payments for anyone in the Hurricane damage area. GM is cool - they're just doing it. Ford is requiring car owners to call. And Chrysler is sending a letter with instructions. How the hell these people are going to call and get mail when both are out of service is beyond me.

Another note: I've been trying to keep track of the Entergy IMAX theater to see if it sustained any damage and to locate the staff (unsuccessful so far). The best I've been able to monitor is the adjacent aquarium. They made it through the hurricane with only one fish dying. It was sick anyway, so it was expected to die. After two days, the skeleton staff of two keepers was told to leave by the NO police because of looting and violence in the area. The generator supplying oxygen to the tanks has ceased operation and Audubon Institute is now reporting that almost all the fish have died.
 

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Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-06-2005, 04:50 PM:
 

quote:

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Here's a good, well-reasoned article which appears today on the New York Times' site:

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quote: Joe Redifer

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Look at that giant cup of water he is getting out of New Orleans.

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Actually, it looks like he's using the cup to put the water BACK in the street.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-06-2005, 07:28 PM:
 

quote:

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Here's a good, well-reasoned article which appears today on the New York Times' site:

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quote:

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Because they're all being kept out by FEMA, for reasons nobody can get out of them. FEMA is now under the Department of Homeland Security.

Who is being kept out by FEMA (government wise)? Not buses, as tens of thousands have been evacuated by bus already... What took so log was finding the buses and getting them there, as the mayor and the state did not have the forsight to use the ones they had - rather they were destroyed in the storm.

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quote:

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Doomed nursing home had offer of bus transport
Coroner says owner snubbed help until it was too late

By Paul Rioux
Staff Writer

Less than 24 hours before Hurricane Katrina began ravaging St. Bernard Parish with 140 mph winds and a 20-foot storm surge, Coroner Bryan Bertucci made an urgent call to the owner of St. Rita's Nursing Home near Poydras.

"I told her I had two buses and two drivers who could evacuate all 70 of her residents and take them anywhere she wanted to go," he said.

But Mabel Mangano refused the offer. "She told me, 'I have five nurses and a generator, and we're going to stay here,'" Bertucci said.

It turned out to be a tragic decision.

On Wednesday, nine days after the storm had passed, Bertucci watched as a dozen workers from a federal agency that specializes in handling mass casualties began the gruesome task of removing about 30 decomposing bodies from the still-flooded nursing home.

...

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 09-09-2005, 03:58 PM:
 
I'd like to see Brad edit the long winded posts to just say "blah blah blah" and leave it at that.

Back to the topic at hand, how many folks will be watching the telethon that will be running on ALL of the networks tonight? I wonder how many of the acts will be able to simply perform without making some stupid political comment to ruin the atmosphere.
 

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Posted by Joseph L. Kleiman (Member # 3097) on 09-09-2005, 04:31 PM:
 
I just wanted to share this tidbit of information about New Orleans' other residents from the American Zoological Association:

quote:

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While the aquarium survived Hurricane Katrina relatively unscathed, its life support system did not; most of the animals in its aquatic exhibits were lost. However, the sea otters, penguins, macaws and raptors, leafy and weedy sea dragons, some fishes, and Midas, a 250 lb. green sea turtle all survived thanks to the care of staff who remained at the aquarium through the hurricane, flooding and civil unrest.

The Aquarium has power again as of yesterday. In addition, a new staff team staff arrived yesterday as replacements for those who have been at the Aquarium.

The Aquarium has relocated the surviving animals from its marine life collection to four colleague institutions in Monterey, California; and Dallas, Galveston, and Houston, Texas.

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quote:

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Officials have put together a makeshift jail in New Orleans' bus and train terminal. "Without a jail, [there would be] no reconstruction," says the warden of the city's newest holding facility for criminals. An Amtrak locomotive is providing power to the facility. Chain-link pens hold the prisoners. And the Orleans Parish district attorney has set up a temporary office in the gift shop.

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quote: Phil Hill

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With all government $$$ promised and pouring in to New Orleans, I'm seriously thinking of buying some high-ground land there.

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quote: Matt Fields

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The refugees may have liked Utah, but people in the Astrodome were offered free rent for an apartment in Columbus, Ohio for a year and help finding jobs and only seven people or so volunteered to come.

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quote: Joseph L. Kleiman

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Next thing to happen will be Oprah giving a brand new car to everyone from the Ninth Ward.

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If such a thing were to happen, I wouldn't be surprised if the cars were given without any of the taxes being paid for the recipients: "Hey, here's a brand new car and a tax bill of $5000!"

 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-18-2005, 09:17 PM:
 

quote: Jim Ziegler

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I am sure I am going to get flamed all to hell for this, but oh well. You have a variety of types of people in the Astrodome right now.. You have the elderly - who probably don't want to go to Ohio. You have the people who want to go back to NO. And you have the third type - the people scared off by the very mention of the word "job". The people left in NO after the evacuation - who then ended up at the Superdome and the the Astrodome were largely dependant on government - some, like single parents, the elderly and the disabled, were dependant because they had to be. However, a SIGNIFIGANT number of able-bodied adults are dependant because they WANT to be. I would wager that of the people left in the Astrodome fit into one of the above categories - those who are not dependant and don't want to be dependant, have already made other arragements to get their life back on track.

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quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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but what I gathered on the news they are more the get out and work type.

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I wish I could say the same for the refugees that were brought here to Corpus. APAC Customer Services had 200 job openings to refugees to try and make a new start, and supposedly only a few showed up. Its not like they were offering them minumum wage either. Most jobs there start at $7.50 an hour with full benefits. Not the best hourly pay, but full benefits sounds pretty good to me.
 

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