This is topic TSA security hilarity in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 12-07-2005, 10:32 PM:
 
Some guy posted a recent experience with the TSA security folks on a travel site I check out every now and then, pretty funny story.

I had a frayed bootlace so seeing that the removal of shoes is optional I decided to not remove them. Upon doing so I was told I was "Code Three" and when they mentioned I was "code three" they smiled and laughed. I then was directed to the bomb sniffing booth where air was puffed over me and I was cleared.

The TSA drones then made me sit down and have the metal dectector run over me, my shoe eyelets set off the alarm.

TSA Drone: "You will have to remove your shoes to be X Rayed"

Me: " I Thought that was optional"

TSA Drone: "When you set off the metal detector we can make you remove your shoes"

Me: "Where does it say that? I'd like to see that in writing please"

TSA Drone: "Would you like to speak to my supervisor"

Me: "Yes."

TSA Drone: "Why won't you remove your shoes?"

Me: "I didn't want my frayed shoelaces to break and walk around two airports and a subway station and walk home without laces...You understand that, right?"

TSA Drone: "Yes sir"

(supervisor arrives)

TSA Honcho: "What seems to be the problem?"

ME: "Is your bomb sniffing booth working?"

TSA Honcho: "Yes"

Me: "So why do I have to take off my shoes when it is the eyelets that set it off?"

TSA Honcho: "We reserve the right to ask people to remove their shoes"

Me: " I thought it was optional"

TSA Honcho: "It is"

me: "But you just said I had to remove them after I got frisked and sniffed"

TSA Honcho: "Yes, but we can ask you to remove your shoes"

Me: "So I refuse to remove my shoes, you search me more thoroughly and in your search determine that my shoes need removal. It appears that this is a punitive search and you are showing me that I have to remove my shoes no matter what, even though I have been more cleared than the other passengers that instantly removed their shoes."

TSA Honcho: "We are not punishing you sir"

Me: "You can see how I would think that?"

TSA Honcho: "Yes sir..you can find out all this at www.tsa.gov"

Me: "Where , in this line , does it recomend that I check that website before deciding to keep my shoes on?"

TSA Honcho: "No where"

Me: So removing shoes is not really optional?

TSA Honcho: "No sir"

Me: "But people are told it is optional and not told where to check to find out that it really is not..is that correct?"

TSA Honcho: "Yes sir"

So I removed my shoes, they came back clear and I broke my shoelace while lacing them up. I asked if I could go and they said yes.

Oddly they forgot to search my coat and carry on bag during all of this.
 
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 12-08-2005, 02:12 AM:
 
TSA sucks ass. I had a bag that I put a TSA approved lock on. Only they have the key. When I got home my New digital camera and webcam and other things were missing, and the bag was still locked. About 600 dollars of stuff. I called and complained about it, told them that it was obviously one of their employees. I haven't seen or heard any thing since then. F**k them. I have too many stories about TSA dealings, they can kiss my ass. One time I was traveling with my kids and (ex)wife. We had a stroller, and they said we could go first. So we hand our tickets.....no-one else is in line, and they pull me aside to search me. I told them they have to be fucking kidding! For at least 5 minutes, i have to put up with some stupid bitches bullshit, while my (ex) wife had to board the plane with our 2 young kids. Sorry for the rant, but as an frequent traveler, I dont see the good with TSA. Maybe I just havent read the headlines where TSA makes a bust? I only see where they confiscate fingernail cutters, but at the same time they let you board with knitting needles(my daughter was allowed to bring them on board)
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-08-2005, 07:02 AM:
 
Small people with "a lot" of authority can test even the best of us. This is not going to get better. Can you imagine the challenge of hiring intelligent people when they are asked to then become TSA agents? Obviously this is not happening. Another good reason to fly yourself (or at least drive). These situations are killing the airline industry.

Can you imagine what would happen in our industry if they used metal detectors, bomb sniffing dogs, frisking, anf then FORCED people to watch TV ads on our screens before allowing them to see the movie they paid for? Louis
 
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 12-08-2005, 08:17 AM:
 
Shortly after 9/11 I had to fly from Florida to California to test a new design for the Megasystems 8/70 projector. It was just an overnight trip, so I only had my carry on bag. I threw two 5/70 - 35 mm sprockets that were mounted on shafts into my bag.(heavily protected with bubblewrap). I went through security, no problem, but some TSA bitch came running over and asked me to unpack my bags again. They had already looked at them, and I explained what they were. This bitch unwraps both of them and holds them in her hands by the shafts, she says these could be weapons, AND STARTS BANGING THE SPROCKETS TOGETHER! I instinctively yell very loudly at her and it got real quiet at the "security" post. Her superviser immediately came over as I was loudly telling this woman that she probably has to cover a couple thousand dollars in expenses for the damage she just did. Not only the parts, but I said if they are damaged, I cannot go to my customer, so there are lost wages and airline fees, and my pay. And I try to explain the reason for the 5 layers of Bubblewrap around each one. Stupid bitch!

I am lucky I did not get arrested, but I have no respect for those guys. It would be different if they knew what they were doing. I feel less safe flying than I did before.

Fuck em!!! I'm not bitter [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Jason M Miller (Member # 2597) on 12-08-2005, 09:22 AM:
 
yea TSA Sucks.....I used to work at the airport with an airline, sure we could go out side and stand right next to a plane but if we tried to cross a security check point we still had to get screened, even if we had our security badges on. [Mad] Also just a tip do not make the person mad that checks you in for your flight, they can put you on the special screening list so you are taken off to the side. To tell if you are on this list there will be 4 S's on your boarding card..
 
Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 12-08-2005, 10:04 AM:
 
When I flew out of Portland, ME in August, they had a stupid policy about taking your shoes off. If you did not remove your shoes and put them on the conveyor to be x-rayed, you were subjected to a full search, whether you set off the metal detector or not!
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-08-2005, 10:59 AM:
 
quote:
When I flew out of Portland, ME in August, they had a stupid policy about taking your shoes off. If you did not remove your shoes and put them on the conveyor to be x-rayed, you were subjected to a full search, whether you set off the metal detector or not!
Wasn't Portland ME one of the airports that some of the 9/11 highjackers got cleared by security and "into the system" without further checks? Probably good reason for them to be more likely to insist on extra inspection.
 
Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 12-08-2005, 12:20 PM:
 
The TSA are morons - every last one of those stupid bastards from the top down. Imagine federalizing a bunch of security guard rejects. They are a thing of scorn, and a thing of shame. And an endless source for jokes and putdowns. Really, we all have to stifle a snicker every time we see one of these mouth breathing, slack-jawed, single-helix types in their clown suits. They are both laughed at and loathed by everyone else in the air transportation industry, customer and worker alike.

Some common industry TSA monikers:

TSA:

Thousands Standing Around
Too Slow for Arby's
Too Stupid for Arby's
Take Shoes off Asshole
Thumbs Stuck in Asses
Take Some Aspirin
This Sucks Ass
Terrorist Stay Away
Take Scissors Away
There's Still Amtrak

Q: How do you qualify to be a TSA screener?
A: The usual. You take some tests.
Q: What kind of tests to you have to take?
A: The usual. Aptitude and intelligence tests.
Q: What kind of scores to you have to make?
A: The usual. The lower the better.

The TSA is the best thing to ever happen to Al Qaeda.

[ 12-22-2005, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Paul Mayer ]
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-08-2005, 01:43 PM:
 
"We have met the enermy and they is us!" Pogo
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-08-2005, 05:32 PM:
 
When I entered the US at Memphis last Tuesday the whole operation was very polite, efficient and well-run. I think the immigration officer appreciated the fact that I'd filled out my visa waiver form correctly (on my last trip I got stuck behind someone who hadn't, which caused a 10-minute delay). He asked me why and for how long I was here, scanned my index fingers and took my photo, welcomed me to the US and sent me on to the baggage claim. The entire process took a couple of minutes at most. Approaching the security gate for the transfer desk there was an officer walking up the line, asking people if their shoes normally went through the body scanner without triggering it. If the answer was anything other than 'yes, they've been through before', he advised them to take the shoes off and put them in a tray through the x-ray machine, but if queried said that doing so was optional. My glasses caused the scanner to light up (or at least, I think it was my glasses), so I got a pat down. The officer was very polite, it only took a moment, I was welcomed to the US again and was on my way very soon afterwards. It was all very quick and unthreatening, and a stark contrast to the x-ray people at Amsterdam Airport, who look at you like you're a subhuman life form if you don't speak to them in Dutch.
 
Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 12-08-2005, 05:46 PM:
 
The most ridiculous transport security I underwent was when I was on a sea journey from Amsterdam to Newcastle last summer.

I was selected for a random bag search (which was carried out as a pat down of my rucksack). The largish pair of scissors at the top of my bag were looked at and ignored, but the hardback book at the bottom caused the bag checker much excitement (and was the least acceptable object in my bag).

What was more annoying was that vehicle passengers were not subjected to the same security checks and could carry anything up from their car into their cabin.
 
Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 12-08-2005, 05:59 PM:
 
Shortly after 9/11 a friend reminded me that I had said for years, that what was being called security at the airport, is nothing more than hurasment. Since you can see what it is, and where it is, a terrist can plan a way around it. Well, if you look closely, they are still doing the same thing, only slower. The people in charge are political apointies. They have no clue.

At one time I traveled with a portable DAT player because I can get 6 hours of audio on a 90 meter tape at 32K. Because it draws a good amount of current, I had a small gell cell with it. At one small airport I was flying out of, the DAT and battery were run through the X-ray machine with no problem. But as I went to pick up my stuff, a TSA dweeb noticed the battery, and wanted to know what it was. I told him it was a battery for my DAT. He kept asking me questions about it. I kept telling him it is a battery. Note that it says "PANASONIC BATTERY" right on it, and gives voltage, and current specks. But this TSA moron could not figure it out, I guess he could not read. I was wondering why he didn't ask me to hook the battery to the DAT, and show him that it worked? I wondered why he didn't just run it back through the X-ray machine, to see what was inside? I decided not to say anything to see if he could come up with either of these options. But I guess he wasn't that smart. He finally let me go.

I now travel with a MP3 CD player.
 
Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 12-10-2005, 11:26 AM:
 
When the TSA was first announced my dad begged me to get an application. Not that I'm qualified (I'm not), but it was a Federal job and that might mean Federal benefits. My dad isn't a welfare slug, but he is an old-school Roosevelt Democrat.
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-10-2005, 01:46 PM:
 
On the last flight I was on my laptop was left for about 30min in the xray unit due to a dispute with the person in the line in front haveing an argument with the security guard over refusing to remove his belt since the buckle set of the alarm
Well my laptop was fried and when I compleained it was pointed out they had no responsibility for damage as security screening is "volentary" as no one forces you to fly
Also in toronto there are large signs requiring steel toed shoes to be removed prior to screening (I want to know if they santize the floors )
 
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-10-2005, 02:40 PM:
 
I have learned not to argue with the idiots. You can't win. Their little ego trip will escalate as far as it needs to, to "beat you".

So I carry no metal and wear slipper type shoes that I don't have to untie. All my car keys and what not I put in my ski type jacket pockets. All I have on me is my passport and drivers license. I walk up put my ski jacket in the bin and walk through the gate thingy. Usually they are happy....usually

What really pisses me off is when they stamp all the "S"s all over your boarding pass. That stands for "screw" and you have to get in the special line and get treated like a criminal. They say it's random, but that's BS. I have a friend whose name must match some terrorist suspect. EVERY time he tries to fly he is pulled out of line. Apparently his name is on a "do not allow on the plane" list. He's been trying to fight it for years now.
Meanwhile, you see these mideastern types with their wives in some berka outfit cruise right through security. Apparently they don't say anything to those types as they figure they'd be sued for profiling. (duh)

The wife and I flew to NM a while back and she had a broken foot. So we had a wheel chair meet us at the front door. On the way through "the line" they made her get out of the wheel chair so they could search it. IT WAS THEIR WHEELCHAIR and their attendant was pushing it (they wouldn't let me)

Are they idiots? Yes they are
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-10-2005, 03:36 PM:
 
Remember you get the kind of government you deserve. Louis
 
Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 12-10-2005, 03:40 PM:
 
Yeah, but its a thankless job all around. We bitch about them now, we'll bitch about them when another building comes down, in the mean time we'll still bitch about 'em . . . its almost like the great debates between management and unions.
 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 12-10-2005, 04:41 PM:
 
quote: Greg Mueller
What really pisses me off is when they stamp all the "S"s all over your boarding pass. That stands for "screw" and you have to get in the special line and get treated like a criminal. They say it's random, but that's BS. I have a friend whose name must match some terrorist suspect. EVERY time he tries to fly he is pulled out of line.
That happens to me everytime I travel with anyone else. If I travel alone I can pretty much run through security. Same goes with clearing customs.
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-11-2005, 09:01 AM:
 
quote: Gordon McLeod
On the last flight I was on my laptop was left for about 30min in the xray unit due to a dispute with the person in the line in front haveing an argument with the security guard over refusing to remove his belt since the buckle set of the alarm
In every airport I've been through outside the UK, you have to remove your laptop from its case and put it through the x-ray machine in a separate tray. In Britain they never ask you do to this, and are happy to let the laptop through the x-ray inside its bag or case. I wonder if British airports use more sophisticated types of x-ray machine (which, given the airport charges added on to the cost of plane tickets, they could probably afford!) or just consider the extra risk from a laptop going through in its case to be too small to worry about.
 
Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 12-18-2005, 10:10 PM:
 
Flying to Ft. Lauderdale last year, my buddy, who has two arifical hip joints, and the accompanying medical card that clearly indicates the same... well, they pull him to the side and every pass thru the TSA checkpoints.. wanding him like a criminal...

AND... I've stoped wearing shoes while flying... I wear my Rainbow's and I STILL have to send them thru the XRay machine in the tray. Like someone else mentioned.. wonder how many times the carpets/flors are cleaned in that damn terminal?

TSA leaves LOTS to be desired... But, like Postal workers, they put up with a bunch of shit also...
 
Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 12-19-2005, 02:09 PM:
 
A few years back in Denver, I was carrying on a pretty rare 16mm short that I was borrowing from my cousin. You should have seen the TSA freak out when that metal can came though the xray machine. After several supervisors and discussions, the screener finally warned me that they would have to open the can. I agreed to let them open it at which point they started unspooling the film to examine it. I loudly put a stop to that after about 15 feet of leader hit the floor. The agent finally rolled it back up, placed the reel into the can and sent me on my way.
 
Posted by Jason M Miller (Member # 2597) on 12-20-2005, 12:31 PM:
 
quote: Greg Mueller
What really pisses me off is when they stamp all the "S"s all over your boarding pass. That stands for "screw" and you have to get in the special line and get treated like a criminal. They say it's random, but that's BS. I have a friend whose name must match some terrorist suspect. EVERY time he tries to fly he is pulled out of line. Apparently his name is on a "do not allow on the plane" list. He's been trying to fight it for years now.
This is random, to a point...there is a watch list that is in the system, this is defently flawed and it is a big pain the rear to get off this, the ticket agent can put this on the card them selfs if you piss them off [evil] which I admit when I worked fot the airlines I did some times. [evil]
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-20-2005, 04:58 PM:
 
quote: Sean Weitzel
A few years back in Denver, I was carrying on a pretty rare 16mm short that I was borrowing from my cousin.
I went through two airport x-ray checks with a reel of 9.5mm in my bag yesterday, en route to a lab. On the second, I went through the scanner before the bag, and so I could see the x-ray screen as it went through from the 'cleared' side. The outline of the steel spool showed up clearly, and I could see the operator looking at it and thinking 'What the...' as it passed along. But he decided not to stop it, and I was able to pick up the bag from the conveyor and move along without comment.

The sister of a colleague at another English film archive once brought me two 1,000 reels of 35mm nitrate that were being transferred to my archive. She told me she was staying with someone close to where we're based, so I arranged to meet her at a bar in Newcastle to relieve her of the films. I guessed that she'd be taking the train or driving - it didn't occur to me that she might come by air. Imagine my shock, then, when she arrived and explained that 'You're damn lucky to get these! The airport security people gave me the third degree over them... thought I was a video pirate or something!'

It turned out the x-ray people had seen the cans and interrogated her as to whether she was the legal owner of the films or not. They couldn't have cared less about the 'Flammable Solid - UN1324/4.1' label on the cans! I know 2,000 feet is not much and that nitrate is actually quite difficult to ignite, but if those films had caught fire in the cabin of a 737 in mid-cruise, I shudder to think of the outcome (not least because of the nitric acid fumes that would have been generated in a pressurised cabin in which the air is recirculated). The person carrying the films was not an archivist and had no idea about any of this; but even so I was gobsmacked that the airport people were worried about piracy but not about the big warning label stuck on the cans.
 
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 12-20-2005, 10:36 PM:
 
quote: Leo Enticknap
I was gobsmacked
Hehe, that is a cool word i never heard before. But one I plan on using in the future! [thumbsup]
 
Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 12-21-2005, 04:06 AM:
 
I pull 3 relays out of my (2nd) car if I have to leave it parked at the airport, & stick them in my carry-on. For some reason, I have never gotten any problems about what must be very suspiciuos-looking things to any layperson.

Not that I haven't enjoyed examples of TSA silliness, but the relays thing is remarkable.

I hate flying. The TSA is the least aggravating part of flying. Flying is BORING, pockets bursting with paper for flights, car rentals, itineraries, a mash of people worse than Mardi Gras even in business class, missed flights, msucle-spasm-inducing seating on planes, waiting in airports, doing the 'I'm not running' fast as possible trot to catch a connecting flight, wrangling & toting carry-on & chasing checked luggege, scheduling flights that get you somewhere sometime nearbouts or nowhere near the time you want, etc. I often find that I can DRIVE somewhere & get there within an hour or so of some whacked-out flight schedule.

A friend of mine in Beaumont heard me say this, & he said, "I can't believe that! I LOVE to fly! I would fly from here to that door if they had a flight!"

Not me. I would drive to Portland WA from New Orleans instead of enduring commercial air travel. And I've done it, too.

It might be different if I had a pilot's license & a Jenny, but that's not likely to happen.
 
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 12-21-2005, 08:48 AM:
 
quote: William Hooper
It might be different if I had a pilot's license & a Jenny, but that's not likely to happen.
Whats a Jenny? I call my blow up doll "Bitch". I don't think she likes it though, because of the expression on her face, her mouth is always wide open! Oh, I got Jennys number also. 867-5309, she didnt give me an area code though!
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-21-2005, 09:42 AM:
 
quote: William Hooper
I hate flying. The TSA is the least aggravating part of flying. Flying is BORING...
But in most scenarios it's also the only reliable and reasonably priced option for travelling over 200 miles if you don't want to drive. If that's the case in a country as small as Britain, I guess it must be even more so in the US. I understand how you feel, though: I feel exactly the same way about trains, and it'll be a cold day in Hell before I use one again. Sample scenario: York to London (186 miles as the crow flies):
 
Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 12-21-2005, 11:03 AM:
 
My, don't they teach anything in school these days? [Big Grin]

Presented for the edification of this esteemed forum's membership:

A Curtis JN-4 "Jenny"

-

Now this is real flying! [thumbsup]

Back to TSA boobery, the TSA is promising for next year to select more victims for random full searches. Yes! That'll make things better for air travellers. [Roll Eyes] I'm glad I limit myself to flying only in personal aircraft these days.

For travelling in this part of the US (typical stage length 300 miles), I find that in a race between a 1-hour airline flight, a 2-hour personal aircraft flight, and a 5-hour personal car drive, the car drive matches or beats the flights time-wise door-to-door. The drive is also much cheaper even with current mogas prices and the availability of deeply discounted airfares.

The personal aircraft is obviously the most fun and satisfying for me but it's also the most expensive choice by far. Still, no arriving two hours before flight time, no lines, no crowds, no schedule hassles, no luggage hassles, no "difficult" fellow passengers (unless you've invited them), no TSA. You do get what you pay for.
 
Posted by Scott D. Neff (Member # 185) on 12-22-2005, 12:07 PM:
 
My only real complaint about TSA is that they're so used to dealing with one time travellers that I will walk up to security with my laptop in my hand and they will still ask me "Do you have a laptop?!?!!"

My other complaint is that some places are nice about taking your shoes off, others aren't.

And lastly -- what good is the security screening when in Oakland, my belt does NOT set off the alarm, but in Salt Lake City it DOES???

I'd rather them take a longer time to actually be effective, or just get rid of the silly program altogether. Why do I have to take my coat off? Won't the metal detector detect things inside my coat? Why DO I have to remove my laptop? Are laptop bags made of x-ray proof material??
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-22-2005, 02:20 PM:
 
I think the TSA is part of some evil plot to make the airlines go bankrupt even faster. Between them and the planes themselves, they've made flying a miserable drudgery that must be endured, rather than the enjoyable thing it should be. Whatever happened to "getting there is half the fun?"
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-22-2005, 02:24 PM:
 
TSA is nothing more than a false sense of security for the dumb Americans. They aren't stopping ANYTHING. Case in point, next time any of you are at DFW airport, take note of the location of the TSA goonsquad. Now take note of the spinning exit only doors...there's nobody watching those! Let's say I wanted to hijack a plane. All I do is go through the TSA screening, then have my buddy meet me at the exit only carousel 5 minutes later where he drops a gun or bomb or whatever on the floor and kicks it in, then the door literally delivers it inside to me so I can go wreak havoc!

By the way, if you book your ticket less than 24 hours before the plane departs, you WILL get put on the terrorist list. This happened to me a couple of months ago when I was doing some installations. Plans changed and I had to modify my tickets the day before on a few occasions. After the third time I got the raping I asked the guard flat out why I was being pulled aside. He asked "when did you buy your ticket?" I told him "last week, but I had to change it yesterday for today's flight because the contractors were behind." He said "that's why, the system automatically assumes something is up on a last minute booking". My response was "that seems dumb to me, so according to this theory terrorists do things on a spur of the moment thing?" His response was amazingly "yes". WHAT??? [Confused]

The terrorists won. They don't even have to do anything anymore because TSA does it for them on a daily basis.
 
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-22-2005, 03:29 PM:
 
It's the stories of what they miss that make me paranoid. There was a guy in Seattle that got through with a hand gun. After he was through and remembered he had it (????) he went back and told them and the jumped all over him.
What's crazy is when they decided they needed better TSA agents all they did was make the ones that were there federal employees and gave them a raise. AND they have NO common sense. They gave my 80+ year old stepfather the complete search and he was a little old stooped over 100 pound guy. And I've seen them do the same thing to little old ladies that are in wheel chairs. Meanwhile you see these angry looking mideastern types with black leather jackets and a wife in one of those burka outfits waltz right on through without a second look and I'm getting the complete physical.

Why don't they just shove the political correctness and start profiling?

Answer: Because the ACLU would jump them [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 12-22-2005, 05:09 PM:
 
quote: Greg Mueller
And I've seen them do the same thing to little old ladies that are in wheel chairs. Meanwhile you see these angry looking mideastern types with black leather jackets and a wife in one of those burka outfits waltz right on through without a second look and I'm getting the complete physical.

Why don't they just shove the political correctness and start profiling?

Answer: Because the ACLU would jump them
And the ACLU would jump them for good reason, I'd say. The vast, vast majority of those "mideastern" types are law-abiding citizens, just like you; they just happen to share some very visible attributes with some reprehensible people. They'd be just as inconvenienced as you were if the profiling was only done by appearance, except they'd be stopped all the time.

There's nothing stopping potential terrorists that fit that profile from getting some crazy white guy (for example) to carry their weapons for them. There are plenty of crazy white guys in the US (McVeigh, for one); why don't younger white guys with crew cuts have a harder time renting a truck? Even an unwitting accomplice with something concealed in their carry-on or on their person (slipped into their pocket) can be dangerous.

That's not failing to be "politically correct," that's just racist. You can certainly use national origin or appearance as a part of a broader profile (when did they buy the ticket, where are they going, what does the flight path take them past, where is their seat on the plane, what kind of baggage are they taking with them, etc.) to be fairer to all people AND more effective at stopping terrorists. The random checks are in addition to people being flagged due to fitting a profile, and that's where your little old ladies will get selected.
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-22-2005, 05:47 PM:
 
The next terror attack won't be on a plane anyway, since the terrorists know that's where we have most of our "security." They'll hit something like a Greyhound bus or a shopping mall or a stadium. Or a theatre.
 
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-22-2005, 05:51 PM:
 
Dear Robert
I knew someone would pipe up with that crap.
My answer is...who has done all the hijackings and terrorist activities?
You think little old ladies in wheel chairs are bombers? When those "random" (bullshit) checks come up and it's a little old lady in a wheel chair, why don't they have the sense to not put them through that? Have you heard of ANY little old ladies in wheel chairs that have hijacked planes? So now we ALL have to suffer because of some mid-eastern assholes (killers)
Maybe if those middle eastern types got a little preasure from their pissed off fellow middle easterners it would help. Maybe if we made it hard on all middle eastern types the good ones would kick ass on the nogoodnicks. So far I haven't hear ANY public messages by those of middle eastern decent or islamic beliefs condeming their fellow contrymen or fellow islamists for doing what they are doing. Why is that?
And so what if it is harder on those of middle eastern decent? Tough shit. There's a couple hundred million of us in this country that I think would feel fine about profiling. Why is the minority's "comfort" above the majority's
And as far as the ACLU goes, just plain old fuck them.

If you think I'm a "racist" that's fine. I am when it comes to any minority or country or religion, that has sworn to kill me/us just because we aren't of their religion. As far as I am concerned if they try to kill me I'm going to try to kill them first. Political correctness be damned.

Maybe you should decide which side of this war you want to be on.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-22-2005, 06:16 PM:
 
Brad has a complete understanding of the situation.

Notice that there is a similarity between TSA agents of any age and the average (worthless) teenage theatre usher.

Effective control is the goal. What we are getting is not. Louis
 
Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 12-22-2005, 10:41 PM:
 
quote: Greg Mueller
Maybe you should decide which side of this war you want to be on.
I'm on the side with you, apparently. We just differ on tactics; I sure as hell don't want to live in an "Islamic republic," thank you very much. [beer]
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-22-2005, 11:27 PM:
 
quote: Greg Mueller
who has done all the hijackings and terrorist activities?
You think little old ladies in wheel chairs are bombers? When those "random" (bullshit) checks come up and it's a little old lady in a wheel chair, why don't they have the sense to not put them through that? Have you heard of ANY little old ladies in wheel chairs that have hijacked planes?
While Greg certainly won't win any political correctness awards, I have to agree he is dead on the money here and was wondering when someone would point that out. The screenings should at least be skewed towards history.
 
Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 12-23-2005, 02:18 AM:
 
But Al Queda has cells in Malasia, Latin America, England...
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-23-2005, 05:39 AM:
 
quote: Mike Blakesley
The next terror attack won't be on a plane anyway, since the terrorists know that's where we have most of our "security." They'll hit something like a Greyhound bus or a shopping mall or a stadium. Or a theatre.
Or, just to really put some Christmas cheer into this thread, if planes are involved it'll probably be at one rather than on one. For example, Heathrow Airport is surrounded by (relatively speaking) economically deprived suburbs with significant Muslim populations. Why waste time and energy thwarting security at the airport itself when you can stand on the roof of a block of flats with a surface-to-air missile launcher? I'm sure there are airports all over Europe which fit a similar profile. After all, no-one wants to live next door to an airport, and so those that do are often people who can't afford to live anywhere else.

It seems to me that if you're reduced to relying on airport x-ray machines to stop terrorists, you've already lost three quarters of the battle. The thing to do is to identify and neutralise them before they do anything nasty.

A friend has his office about 50 yards down a corridor from where one of the 7/7 bombers worked, at the University of Leeds. He told me that lots of people had their suspicions before this man disappeared. He was a chemistry postgrad, and had ordered lots of stuff from suppliers that he shouldn't have needed to do his legitimate work. He came and went at odd hours of the day or night, was secretive about his work and refused to have any social contact with most of his colleagues. Lots of people were worried about him, but in the PC climate that tends to dominate places like universities, no-one wanted to say anything lest they be branded a racist and/or a Muslim-o-phobe.

I don't want to live in a police state where anyone who is slightly eccentric is reported to the bogies as a possible security threat (sounds too much like Germany in the '30s for my liking), but it seems to me that common sense has to prevail here. 99% of Muslims are not terrorists who want to destroy the west; but 99% of terrorists who want to destroy the west are, at the moment, Muslims. And when you've got one of them in a job which gives him access to the materials needed to make bombs and who is acting suspiciously, that's when you want to get the authorities involved. Perhaps if we all played our part and we looked at upgrading our intelligence services a bit, we could deal with the problem long before it comes down to airport x-ray machines.
 
Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-23-2005, 07:17 AM:
 
Greg and Brad: Yous are sooo far off base it's pathetic! There is NOTHING wrong with searching the old, handicapped, and infirmed! THEY ARE OUR ENEMY! I think they should all be given a strip search as well as a full body-cavity search at the gate in full public view.

WE should continue giving those with a profile of OUR HISTORIC ENEMIES a free pass for fear of being labeled "racist".

We ALL know that those in wheelchairs, or with wooden legs, or a colostomy bag have a gazillion prime places to hide not only explosives but also illegal drugs and box-cutters.

I am disgusted at the lack of compassion of all of yous for those that have vowed to KILL US!
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-23-2005, 02:32 PM:
 
quote: Paul Mayer
My, don't they teach anything in school these days?

Presented for the edification of this esteemed forum's membership:

A Curtis JN-4 "Jenny"
Another product of the NY State Finger Lakes region, just south of Rochester:

http://web.linkny.com/~curtiss/

quote:
GLENN H.CURTISS
ACCOMPLISHMENTS INCLUDE:

Motorcycles
1901 Pioneer motorcycle designer and racer
1903 1st American motorcycle champion--world record:56.4 sec. mile
1904 Set ten mile world speed record
1904 Invented handlebar throttle control
1905 Set world speed records for 1, 2, and 3 miles
1907 Set world speed record of 77.6 mph
1907 "Fastest Man in the World" at 136.36 mph (V8 motorcycle)

Aeroplanes
1908 Lead designer and pilot of "June Bug", first official, pre-announced, public flight in US
1908 "Flight engineer" for 1st Army dirigible trial
1909 Produced and sold first private aircraft in US
1909 Won first international air speed record with 46.5mph--Rheims,Fr.
1910 Long distance flying record of 150 miles from Albany to New York
1910 Established Flying School and Exhibition Company
1910 Trained Blanche Stuart Scott, the first American female pilot
1911 RECEIVED PILOT'S LICENSE NUMBER ONE for "June Bug" flight
1911 First successful pontoon aircraft in America
1911 "Father of Naval Aviation", Hydroaeroplane A-1 purchased by USN
1911 First dual pilot control
1911 First retractable landing gear (Hydroaeroplane)
1912 Developed and flew first flying boat--(demonstrated on Lake Keuka)

World War I
1914-1918 Produced 6,000 "Jennys", trainer for WW I

Post World War I
1919 Curtiss NC-4 flying boat--first to cross the Atlantic
1919 Commenced private aircraft production with the Oriole

The Florida Years
1919 Developed streamlined travel trailer
1921 Developed Hialeah, Florida
1923 Developed Miami Springs, Florida (named in 1930)
1926 Developed Opa-Locka, Florida

A Life Time of Innovation
1878-1930 Produced over five hundred inventions in his life time
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Aerospace/Jenny/Aero3.htm

quote:
The Curtiss JN-4 "Jenny"

The Curtiss JN-4 "Jenny" two-seat biplane was one of the most popular planes of all time. Although the JN-4 series of aircraft was technologically unremarkable, it was significant in that it was the first mass produced plane and was manufactured in larger numbers than any other American plane up to that time. The Jenny never saw military action but met the need for a dependable military trainer. From April 1917 when the United States entered World War I, it was used to train some 95 per cent of all U.S. and Canadian pilots.

 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-23-2005, 03:05 PM:
 
quote:
Curtiss JN-4 "Jenny"
And also a product of the "Hooterville Airplane Company" on a classic episode of Green Acres.
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-23-2005, 03:15 PM:
 
Maybe Hooterville = Hammondsport?
 
Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 12-23-2005, 05:02 PM:
 
I think - in some ways - the West has shot itself in the foot. What made our systems work has been a connection to the rule of law and the law's ability to so comfortably protect life, liberty, and happiness. This is not Jefferson, but Thomas Hobbes and John Locke - two Englishmen. Other enlightened thinkers piggy-backed their ideas onto these guys and a set principle of freedom and democracy emerged.

Now 400 years later, some of those principles associated with freedom and democracy - such as a search and seizure or illegal detainment might not be so easy to protect when facing an enemy such that we do. This is not the first time problems like this have affected the West, but it is the first time such a large group of Westerners have been affected.

The system is set up to be amended and in time it will be. For now we act like Westerners and wait for change.
 
Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 12-23-2005, 07:18 PM:
 
There is a middle ground between random checks that include grandmothers in wheel chairs and racial profiling. I call it "intelligent profiling". While someone shouldn't be pulled out solely because they look like they come from the Middle East, that certainly should be a factor. You combine that with whether the person is traveling alone, whether they have a one -way ticket, whether they have luggage, whether their name shows up on any lists, whether they're of a particular age, etc.

I'm a proud member of the ACLU, but I'd gladly support some kind of intelligent profiling. But what Brad wrote somewhere above is correct: the current system is a joke that is meant to demonstrate that something is being done, but it actually does nothing. We play these stupid games at the airport, but we are doing nothing to protect our ports, chemical facilities, etc. Instead we tell tourists that they're not permitted to take photos of the George Washington Bridge.

Why do we always think that because the terrorists have struck airlines in the past that they're going to do it again? Why wouldn't they strike a shopping mall or ball park or Times Square, etc.

One of the things that drove me crazy after 9/11 is that they had the army and the police protecting the WTC rubble far in excess of the protection that was provided to other potential targets, like the Empire State Building or Rockefeller Center, etc. The only place I see substantial protection today is the Stock Exchange.
 
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 12-24-2005, 02:57 AM:
 
Personally I have no problem with 'random' flagging of passengers. After all, just because their ticket information says Bertha Mills is an 80 year old in a wheelchair doesn't mean an 80 year old in a wheelchair will be traveling through the security checkpoint. Ever hear of falsified documents? In any event, when the security agents see that it is indeed the 'real' Bertha they most certainly should lay off.
 
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-24-2005, 09:16 AM:
 
At SeaTac you have to show 2 pieces of ID and your boarding pass before you get to the search point, or you don't go any further.
 




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