This is topic State of California says: turn off AC on hot days in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=004738
Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 07-23-2006, 12:35 PM:
Every summer here in CA, there are fucking public service "ALERTS" on radio and TV saying "turn off your AC and your computers and everything else, or else we'll have blackouts again!" or some crap to that effect. The official bullshit site is HERE
This is so pathetic, why can't they just build more damn power plants. They're probably too busy saving whales...
This "save energy" crap is as bad as being told to carpool or take the bus with the homeless people! We pay for our damn power, and I'll run the AC at full blast with my doors and windows open if i want to! ![[fu]](graemlins/fu.gif)
Do any of you in other states have your governor telling you to turn off your AC on hot days? ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
I guess I better turn the fader down to 5 and turn my lamps down a bit so we won't go dark tonight. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-23-2006, 12:48 PM:
California can't possibly produce enough energy or drinkable water to supply all the Americans there, let alone the illegal immigrants, so they have to suck it out of other states. I think you should conserve if you can.
Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-23-2006, 01:07 PM:
With the risk of walking dangerously along the no politics line, I'll leave it at this. You should move to a more sensible state.
Crank up the A/C, the D/C and whatever CCs Dave will spare. You shouldn't be guilted into having a river of sweat running down your ass crack just because your state is too stupid to do what needs to be done. We have the privilege as a civilized nation to have controlled temperatures in our residences.
Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 07-23-2006, 02:03 PM:
On occasion they've done something similar here in AZ, usually "turn up your AC 2 degrees" or something to that effect. Usually most people laugh that off since it's like 110 degrees outside.
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-23-2006, 02:41 PM:
He He your California alert is what we are normally doing in South Florida.....of course easy to swallow based on the 40% increase in electric bills, due to "fuel" surcharge, in the past year ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-23-2006, 03:29 PM:
We have the same here and in fact all new meters are time based smart meters so you get different rates baased on the total system demand at the time
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-23-2006, 04:04 PM:
Weren't they supposed to reduce the voltage there in summer to reduce the KWH? Line voltage in L.A. is almost 130; could easily work OK at 112. Save you money, too. Louis
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-23-2006, 05:02 PM:
When I was a kid, I remember my dad explaining to me that electricity was sold with break points. They more wattage you used, the less it cost per watt, thus encouraging you to use MORE, not less. Boy have times changed. Based on this premise, GE used to tout the All-electric Home which was heated by electricity, that being much less common back then.
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-23-2006, 05:24 PM:
I live in one of those homes ( built 1963 ) with the "All electric" plaque above the doorbell ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
The kilowatt power price is making our backup generator cost efficient in regards to fuel....if you do not factor the generator purchase cost......but being without power for 28 days during last hurricane season, just have to bite the bullet ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Hovering between 112-119 VAC in Miami and the AC at 79 degree farhenheit.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 07-23-2006, 09:18 PM:
Nuclear will make a big comeback when brownouts prevent large numbers of customers from running their A/C and computers and home theaters.
Remember: It's pronounced NEW-cue-ler. ![[beer]](graemlins/beer.gif)
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-23-2006, 09:28 PM:
The ironic thing here is that the HVAC system in our computer room at work seems to be very sensitive to undervoltage. If the electric utility were to lower the voltage coming into our building, it probably would shut down the unit (raising the room temperature to upwards of 100 degrees and risking fire and equipment failure).
If they're going to lower the voltage, I would strongly prefer that they lower it to zero volts, so at least there is less risk of equipment damage.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-23-2006, 09:32 PM:
quote: Dan Lyons
Do any of you in other states have your governor telling you to turn off your AC on hot days?
Nope, we're at 120 volts solid. In the Desert Mountain States we have about 50% Evaporative coolers and 50% air conditioning. So the power is not sucked down so badly. Evaporative coolers for the most part are alot nicer than air conditioning is... your house does not become so dry.... the evap. cooler puts moisture into your surroundings making living more comfortable. I don't think I'd want a central air system in any home I live in. It has been 105 here the last week or so and my house stays at a cool 82 degrees. My electric bill averages about 34.00 a month since I am just running a 1/3 hp motor for the cooler itelf. We have it nice here in Bountiful City since we are the only city in Utah that has its own power company. We also have much cheaper rates than does the rest of the state that is getting Utah Power. Our power in town comes from Glen Canyon dam...the rest of the kilowatts generated there go to Las Vegas and Ca.
Hey Dan.... you don't HAVE to live in CA... but you choose to. I say if you don't like it then go elsewhere... if you want to stay there then do something about it instead of complaining. Start convincing the environmentalists that Neucs are ok to build ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
.
Mark
Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 07-23-2006, 09:36 PM:
Your power-sucking lightbulbs in your house will last longer at 112V!
I just turned on the AC for the first time . The mountains of NC are nice this year. Only 3 really hot days so far this summer.
Our local Electric burns coal. They have a zillion dollar scrubber on the exhaust. My electric will go double what it is now next month.
A Swamp Cooler system does really well out west. Most homes here have Freon refrigeration.
All I do if they start whining about conserving is go and check the air filters on the AC. If they are dirty, replace em. So many people dont even realize they have a filter. Seen enough theatres with filthy HVAC units.
I might even turn off my 1000 watt hallway night light!
Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-24-2006, 01:52 AM:
quote: David Stambaugh
Remember: It's pronounced NEW-cue-ler.
"Shows your ignorance" "Say it with me. Crap-o-la"
And 82 Deg.? I wouldn't be feeling very well. Driving in my car w/o AC, puts me down for the rest of the day, literally sick.
Swamp A/cs work best in dryer areas. It's so humis here, that the evaporative action that causes it to cool would not take place, or take place so poorly, might buy us 4 deg. of cooling, at best.
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 07-24-2006, 03:57 AM:
It costs electric companies a lot of money when demand 'peaks'. The main power plants are not capable of handling the daytime spikes in power usage but are more than capable fo handling the evening/overnight power demands. To make up for the daytime power crunches power companies have to buy electricity from other companies with excess capacity or use their own 'peaking' plants. In this area Exel Energy has one such pant, a gas turbine plant. Most smaller hydro electric dams are also peaking plants as regulations requiring the resevoirs be kept within a certain level makes it impossible for them to be used continously.
If you want more coal/oil plants making California's smog problem worse or more nuclear plants producing dangerous waste then yeah, keep on using as much electricity as possible.
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-24-2006, 06:40 AM:
There seems to be some seriously weird weather going on right across the Northern Hemisphere. I've just got home from a week at a conference in Maine. It was in the low 30s C / mid 90s F when I left north-east England last Tuesday, and there was barely a cloud to be seen all the way from Amsterdam to Boston. In New England the weather was more of the same, except for Friday night and Saturday when it rained quite heavily (but the temperature didn't drop significantly, making it muggy as hell). Back in Yorkshire, it seems the weather never let up.
You'd have thought that powering air conditioning units was an ideal application for photovoltaic panels - you're going to want to use a/c when there's lots of bright sunlight around to generate the power for it. If the makers of domestic split unit air conditioners bundled them with a panel or two and an installation kit, that might be one way of reducing mains power demand.
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-24-2006, 06:56 AM:
quote: Frank Angel
When I was a kid, I remember my dad explaining to me that electricity was sold with break points. They more wattage you used, the less it cost per watt, thus encouraging you to use MORE, not less. Boy have times changed.
Our power is priced that way right now (Northwestern Washington). You pay a certain price for the first so-many kWh... then another figure for the next so-much, and so-on. If you have a demand meter, the surcharge comes next... then the taxes, fees, a "meter charge", and "tax recovery fee", etc. etc. Our bill usually has 3 or 4 price tiers on it.
In the early 80's, my in-laws had a contactor mounted next to their meter. The contactor was wired to a private phone circuit that was controlled by the power company. During "critical hours", the company could activate those contactors, which would shut down your air conditioning. This was in Sacramento. I don't know anything else about the program... how it worked or if it still exists... but it did then.
Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 07-24-2006, 11:41 AM:
quote: Gordon McLeod
all new meters are time based smart meters so you get different rates baased on the total system demand at the time
How much do the rates vary (is by actual demand or just time of day)
The only system like that I have seen in operation is the 'white meter' system which provides cheap electricity at night for use with storage radiators. It works on a simple time basis.
----
The UK may have power shortages in the winter as there is too much reliance on gas (for direct heating and electricity generation) and minimal gas storage facility.
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-24-2006, 11:42 AM:
Rochester is having a hotter than usual summer. I find that A/C is really most needed when the humidity gets high. We usually have a home A/C setpoint of 80-82 F, but it gets lowered when we need to get the relative humidity inside down to a more comfortable level.
When it's cool outside (most summer evenings), the windows get opened, and the A/C is off.
Our utility's nuclear plant (Constellation Generation Group's Ginna plant on Lake Ontario) has just been granted NRC permission to increase output by 16.8 percent. Living only 10 miles south of the plant, we hope it doesn't compromise safety:
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/news/2006/06-092.html
quote:
The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has approved a request by Constellation Generation Group to increase the generating capacity of the R.E. Ginna Nuclear Power Plant by 16.8 percent. The NRC staff determined that Constellation could safely increase the reactor’s output primarily by upgrading certain plant systems and components. NRC staff also reviewed Constellation’s evaluations showing the plant’s design can handle the increased power level.
The NRC's safety evaluation of the plant’s proposed power uprate focused on several areas, such as the nuclear steam supply systems, instrumentation and control systems, electrical systems, accident evaluations, radiological consequences, operations and training, testing, and technical specification changes. For added confidence in the analysis, the NRC staff also conducted independent calculations and evaluations of selected areas.
The power uprate for the plant, located about 20 miles east of Rochester, N.Y., will increase its generating capacity from approximately 525 to 610 megawatts electric. Constellation intends to operate Ginna at the higher power level following its fall 2006 refueling operations.
Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 07-24-2006, 01:14 PM:
As of today there are still 2000 ConEd customers in Queens still without power since early last week. They got about 20,000 back up over the weekend. During last weeks heatwave ConEd had a multi-equipment system problem.
quote: Dan Lyons
why can't they just build more damn power plants.
No one wants to live next to them.
Two years ago ConEd wanted to build a substation in the Chelsea area of Manhattan (24th@6th Ave). No one wanted it in the area, but ConEd won. There was a parking lot and a 5 story apartment building on the site.
Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 07-24-2006, 02:14 PM:
Power plants suffer the same problem as prisons, sewage treatment plants etc. They are needed, but suffer from NIMBY - Not In My Back Yard.
While simply adding more and more power generation capacity is not the only solution, as technology advances it will be easier and more cost effective to conserve power, than to utilize it.
Texas has sufficient power capacity at this time, however a large portion of it comes from coal. The addition of a few coal plants upwind from the North Texas areas has, and will negate the advances made in cleaning up the air. There is technology to make coal cleaner (but not clean) but power companies are reluctant to implement them because they are costly, and there is no incentive to them to do so.
Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 07-24-2006, 03:02 PM:
Sounds like what they do here with water. The city always tells us to save water, don't water your yards, take shorter showers, and whatever. In the summer they automatically increase your bill for extra drainage due to yard watering (even though the water gets soaked into the ground and doesnt go through the city drains. So you end up using less water and paying more.
The last time I drove by it the lake was still full, so I don't know what the problem is.
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-24-2006, 03:03 PM:
Are the recent "brown outs" and "black outs" due to insufficient generating capacity for record peak loads, or due to a breakdown of distribution capacity?
I can appreciate the effect coal-fired plants have on air pollution, as I live downwind of the midwest power plants and so I deal with "acid rain" on a personal basis. I spend quite a bit on sodium carbonate to maintain proper water pH in my pool (sodium carbonate is used to neutralize excessive acidity). Almost always have to add some after a rainstorm. As a gardener, I know the cost of keeping soil pH at the proper level.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-24-2006, 03:18 PM:
The solution to the "sewer fee" problem is (at least in this area) to get a second water meter installed. That way, you can have one water meter for "household" use (where most of the water ends up in the drain) and another for "lawn" use. With this setup, you will not need to pay sewer charges on the water used for "lawn" use because, obviously, it doesn't enter the sewer. The only downside to this is that you have to pay to have the second water meter installed.
Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 07-24-2006, 03:31 PM:
quote: John Pytlak
Are the recent "brown outs" and Black outs" due to insufficient generating capacity for record peak loads, or due to a breakdown of distribution capacity?
ConEd has promised a report within two weeks. AP
Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 07-24-2006, 03:46 PM:
Chris,
I don't know what lake you've driven by that was "full" but
Lake Lavon that Mesquite, Plano, McKinney, Allen, Richardson, etc get their water from is 13ft below the conservation pool. The lake is essentially at 50% of its "normal" capacity. The above cities have had various water restrictions in place for a large part of the summer so far, and will into the foreseable future.
Edit:
Chris may have been referring to annother lake in the area that is only 2.5ft below the conservation pool. Lake Ray Hubbard is one of the lakes that the City of Dallas gets their water from. The watershed for this lake has recieved considerably more rain than Lavon did, though there is not a great distance between them.
[ 07-26-2006, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Jason Burroughs ]
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 07-24-2006, 04:05 PM:
The consequences of poor water management.
Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 07-24-2006, 10:19 PM:
To answer John's question, here in California the problem is overloaded distribution systems during peak-demand times (12 p.m. to 7 p.m.) on extremely hot days. They say we have plenty of available power, thanks to the long-term deal ex-Gov. Gray Davis signed after the shafting California got from Enron a few years ago.
As far as I know, the State's not telling people that they can't run their A.C. They're asking for voluntary conservation. Turn up the thermostats slightly, etc. There may be more extensive requests in heavily-overloaded ares, tho .. I don't know. At least there are no 'rolling blackouts' yet, but they could come if voluntary conservation doesn't work!
Ron Yost .. boiling through another day in Paradise. but no pool. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-24-2006, 11:10 PM:
When I arrived in Oakland today and went to BART the signs said there will be delays because the trains are running slower to conserve electricity.... I say thats a crock... they still did at least 65 mph in the long stretches. I guess they just wanted to implant in peoples brains that they are doing their part ![[thumbsdown]](graemlins/thumbsdown.gif)
.
Mark
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 07-25-2006, 04:12 AM:
hey mark-- what are you doing in the 510?
Posted by Anslem Rayburn (Member # 1267) on 07-25-2006, 06:16 AM:
The OTHER consequence of poor water management:
If a state cannot cope with the water or power useage requirements of it's citizens, it needs to re-evaluate it's priorities. I PAY for my water and electric. If I want to take a 45 minute shower or run my A/C at 75 everyday, and am willing to pay the amount they charge to do so, I should have that right. This planet is covered in water, and oil companies make a killing every year. Why should I be the one to compromise mycomfort for them?
"Turn off AC on hot days"? So only use my AC when it's already cool outside? If it's hot, turn off the one device in my home that is supposed to make it easier to live? California, and any other state that believes that is a rational request, can go to Hell, and see what it's like at 120*, like it was here in Yuma, Arizona last week, without AC.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-25-2006, 09:07 AM:
quote: Carl Martin
hey mark-- what are you doing in the 510?
Am here to raid Dolby's warehouse ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
. OK, I'm here to go see an Okland A's game.... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Ok again... I'm really here to attend the D-Cinema seminar .
Mark
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-25-2006, 10:20 AM:
People living in warmer climates need to insulate their houses better. Insulation keeps the he heat OUT of your house in summer just the same way it keeps the heat IN during winter.
When I lived in North Carolina I saw so many buildings that were only lightly insulated because the climate is warm. Just think how much energy would be saved if they insulated better.
We insulate refrigerators to keep the cold in and the heat out. Don't we?
And another thing. Start using fans to compliment air conditioning. Exhaust the heat OUT of the house before you try to put cold air in. It will take a LOT of load off the A/C system if you do.
A fan, blowing out, in an upstairs window (or better yet, the attic) will cool the house by 10-20 degrees minimum. That's 10 degrees less cooling for your A/C to work. The energy savings in your A/C system will be MORE than offset by the energy used up by one or two fans!
Hey! And, look at it THIS way! People buying more fans will help the economy! Right!?
The government has a terminal case of "Recto-Cranial Inversion"!
Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 07-25-2006, 10:53 AM:
I talked to my mom last night who's out in Palos Verdes taking care of my Grandma, and she went to 4 or 5 stores, and they were all out of floor fans, ouch. And my grandma's house doesn't have AC working either. A local Target sold out of the fans in the sunday ad within hours I heard.
Posted by Andy Muirhead (Member # 712) on 07-25-2006, 06:47 PM:
You thinks that's bad? I have a 'second' home in Ireland, on an island with 170 residents during winter and 300+ in summer.
I have to pay the mainland council rate for Power, Water and Roads.
The power for the island is supplied by a diesel generator with shaky voltages, run too many appliances at one time and you can notice your lighting dip. I pay the same rate as mainlanders who get their power from the national grid. I've wised up and use a UPS for the sensitive PC equipment, but not before that unstable current screwed some of it up.
The water I pay for, I cannot drink. It's fine for washing etc, but drinking water must come from a well, which is a good 1/2 mile trek. The roads I pay for are not really roads but potholed tracks, which are filled in every few years, and quickly disintegrate.
It's bizarre paying the same rates for sub standard services, but then again, That's island life and thats the least of the problems.
I refuse to get a phone installed - the island has a microwave system and the best connection to internet can be had at 22kbs. Yet it costs the same as a regular phone line.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-26-2006, 12:12 AM:
quote: Andy Muirhead
The water I pay for, I cannot drink. It's fine for washing etc, but drinking water must come from a well, which is a good 1/2 mile trek. The roads I pay for are not really roads but potholed tracks, which are filled in every few years, and quickly disintegrate.
You might as well move to Botswana... You can have all those same great amenities and not have to pay all that $$ for them. IN addition you might own the only car in the whole country and you'd be one popular dude .
Mark
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 07-26-2006, 12:37 AM:
As far as California water usage goes, you guys are already using all your available fresh water and then some. Doesn't the Hoover Dam resevor supply some of California's water?
If you want to pay for desalination plants be my guest. There damn well better not be any federal money going to that nonesense though unless its truly needed.
In any event, the power problems in California are largely systemic and will take years to fix. The power distribution system is very out of date. Its being worked on; journeymen linemen from all over the country are in California working long hours to perfrom these upgrades. Even when they're not doing 'trouble calls' (storm damage repair) they'll often put in 24-32 in straight and then have 8 hours off. I just talked to my mother who's out in Cali visiting my step dad who's a lineman working out there right now and he's been at work since Monday night.
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 07-26-2006, 01:35 AM:
quote: Anslem Rayburn
If a state cannot cope with the water or power useage requirements of it's citizens, it needs to re-evaluate it's priorities. I PAY for my water and electric. If I want to take a 45 minute shower or run my A/C at 75 everyday, and am willing to pay the amount they charge to do so, I should have that right.
I pay for a lot of shit! If you go to a movie and demand that you want a coke, even though they are out of Coke syrup, do you still get it? I am curious, do you pay for your 45 minute shower before or after you take it?
I talked to a good friend of mine from Danville CA today very briefly, because he is running on a generator and cannot stay online long. Because people are running their AC all the time and taking 45 minute showers. He said it is DOWN to 112 degrees there.
Later, Rick
Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 07-26-2006, 02:15 AM:
Rick, shut up and get back to the other thread posting naked pictures of Chinese girls, mkay?
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-26-2006, 08:58 AM:
quote: Richard Hamilton
I talked to a good friend of mine from Danville CA today very briefly, because he is running on a generator and cannot stay online long. Because people are running their AC all the time and taking 45 minute showers. He said it is DOWN to 112 degrees there.
I agree with Mike... Rick... Go post more naked photos. Your friend chooses to live there and as a result he has to put up with all its problems. He also has the choice to move elsewhere where those problems don't exist. It's his choice really... I'm not sympathetic to crybabies.
Mark
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 07-26-2006, 10:43 AM:
Mark, are you calling me a crybaby? I was just stating a fact. I am trying to do some business from halfway around the world and some assholes think that their 45 minute shower is more important than conserving power! You seem to have an opinion about everything that doesn't really concern you.
This lag in communication between me and my friend cost me a few thousand dollars.
As far as naked pics go? Have I posted 1 yet? I don't think so.
Later
Posted by Anslem Rayburn (Member # 1267) on 07-26-2006, 12:25 PM:
quote: Richard Hamilton
I am trying to do some business from halfway around the world and some assholes think that their 45 minute shower is more important than conserving power! You seem to have an opinion about everything that doesn't really concern you.
Well,since I'm the one that posted about the 45 minute shower thing, .
My point was simply that if multi-billion dollar companies are selling power and collecting huge amounts of money for it, they should quit telling their paying customers how much of their product to use and when to use it. If they can't meet demand, they should fix their supply problem rather than putting their problems off on the consumer.
And how the hell do you assume you have more right to an opinion on this topic than anyone else. I didn't realize that the universe had suddenly started revolving around you and your business ventures.
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 07-26-2006, 01:03 PM:
quote: Anslem Rayburn
My point was simply that if multi-billion dollar companies are selling power and collecting huge amounts of money for it, they should quit telling their paying customers how much of their product to use and when to use it.
I thought the State was telling them not to use it. I think the point is that no one should abuse it when there is a shortage.
quote: Anslem Rayburn
And how the hell do you assume you have more right to an opinion on this topic than anyone else. I didn't realize that the universe had suddenly started revolving around you and your business ventures.
What the fuck does that mean? I assume I have more of a right than you? Did I ever imply that? Sorry if I am pissed off that your 45 minute showers cost me money, but I speak my mind.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-26-2006, 01:06 PM:
quote: Richard Hamilton
Mark, are you calling me a crybaby?
Yes! Thats very apparent.
quote: Richard Hamilton
You seem to have an opinion about everything that doesn't really concern you.
Richard, If you post that sort of stuff here expect opinions from anybody and everybody!
Mark
Posted by Anslem Rayburn (Member # 1267) on 07-26-2006, 01:26 PM:
quote: Richard Hamilton
You seem to have an opinion about everything that doesn't really concern you.
Posting this after you made your opinion known certainly makes it sound like you think you have the right to post an opinion while others may not.
quote: Richard Hamilton
I think the point is that no one should abuse it when there is a shortage.
And I think the point is that the companies that are selling electricity should be able to meet demand, thus eliminating the shortage. Our power company here is putting everything in motion to install more power plants before we actually need them, so that we don't end up in the situation California is in. Crazy idea, isn't it?!?
quote: Richard Hamilton
Sorry if I am pissed off that your 45 minute showers cost me money, but I speak my mind.
As do I. I don't take 45 minute showers, or run my AC at 75. I only stated that since I am paying for the bill, I should have the freedom to do so if I want, without having anybody from the powers that be telling me not to.
And how would my water and electric use cost you anything? I pay my bill, I don't live anywhere near your friend in California, I don't live anywhere near where you are in China.
quote: Richard Hamilton
I pay for a lot of shit! If you go to a movie and demand that you want a coke, even though they are out of Coke syrup, do you still get it? I am curious, do you pay for your 45 minute shower before or after you take it?
If the theater were out of Coke, I'd be pissed and question their management abilities. They should be meeting their demand, not punishing their customers for their shortcomings. I pay for my shower after I take it. It's a little agreement that I have the water company. I use some for a month, then I pay for it. They seem okay with the arrangement, and I don't see what that has to do with anything.
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 07-26-2006, 01:27 PM:
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Yes! Thats very apparent.
Really???? How so?
Rick
Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 07-26-2006, 02:37 PM:
before the lock gets clamped down on this thread, let me put in my two cents...
If we are such a civilized, intelligent type of species, why have we not solved the electrical and water issues long before they became issues? The nimby thing? I got a place where they could put a huge nuclear power plant. Out here in Lubbock. We are not too populated, and we have a university which specializes in engineering and such...several regions in the southwest can have these power plants installed, and with long distance power lines, the more populous regions will have power.
The water thing...I don't know.
I know my local friends would not like having a nuclear plant out here for the same reasons that Californians don't, but at least I admit that Lubbock ain't pretty, ain't gonna be a tourist destination, ain't got that many natural resources...this is a perfect place for a nuke plant.
And there are plenty of places like us.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-26-2006, 04:26 PM:
Geez, with the way the last few posts are going, is it any wonder that nations can't get along?
The argument over whether people should be expected to conserve or not is dumb. If there is a shortage, you should conserve. It's simple. We had a water shortage here last summer due to a severe heat wave, so the city told everyone to stop watering their lawns. So everyone in town had a brown lawn. If I'd said "DAMMIT, I pay for all the damn water I want so my lawn will be green and the rest of you can go to hell," what kind of a citizen would I be? The city wasn't going to build a new larger water tank because of one severe heat wave.
In heavily populated areas, there's no way to have enough power plants built fast enough to keep up with the demands created by a drought or severe heat wave combined with the growing population...and when you add in the fact that California is also being flooded with illegal immigrants who are pumping out "American" babies as fast as humanly possible, coupled with a government which has to cope with environmentalists who would rather die than have enough power to run their air conditioning, it's no wonder there's a shortage.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-26-2006, 04:53 PM:
Sorry, Califorinia begets its own troubles. They have chosen not to have desalination plants, they have chosen not to build power plants, they have chosen not to drill off-shore.
Wanna stop the illegals? Put the burdon where it belongs...on the employers. You hire an illegal alien and we catch you, we will bill your company including its board of directors (if any) a fine of not less than 3-times the minimum wage for a year for each worker that has work any portion of any year. We will take the money from your business and failing that we will sieze your assests as well...starting from the owner on down.
The illegal alien thing is just another part of supply and demand at work...if you dry up the demand, you will dry up the supply.
It is a loop-hole in the Constitution that recognizes anyone born in the US as a citizen of the US. It should only apply to those that are legally in the US. One should not be rewarded for comitting a crime. We should recognize the infant as a citizen of the same country as the parent. However, that is now how the Constitution reads as the moment.
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-26-2006, 04:57 PM:
I can't help thinking that microgeneration could help here; especially as I once read that around 70% of electricity generated is lost in transmission between the power station and the home. Incidentally, it's estimated that a similar proportion of London's water is lost between the purification plant and the tap, thanks to leaky pipes.
You can now get a wind turbine that will pump out around 1kw in a light breeze to 3kw in a strong wind, which is about the size of a rooftop TV antenna and costs about £2k including installation. A photovoltaic panel which yields 500w in average daylight comes in at around the same. At the moment you can only get this kind of technology if you put the money up front yourself. It's not a magic bullet - we'll still need electricity at night and when there's no wind.
But I wonder if it might be both economically viable and an environmentally good idea to investigate the possibility of, instead of building a new £/$ multi billion gas, coal or nuke power station, for power companies to buy these renewable microgeneration units by the tens of thousand and go around sticking them on their customers' roofs, without any up-front charge? Some of the investment would be recouped by not having to centrally generate the proportion of power they'd now be getting locally - customers would still pay the same per kilowatt hour, whether it was coming from their panel/turbine or down the line from a substation. And a system which offered a combination of central and local generation would surely be more resilient to surges in demand. Power lines blown down by a gale? Your roof-top turbine would still be giving you some power, even if you had to turn some appliances off. Heatwave in progress? The solar panel on your roof would help keep your a/c online. Another benefit would be that bulk orders for panels and turbines would drive the unit cost down, thereby encouraging consumers to buy more of their own units, too.
Am I being naively optimistic here?
Posted by Anslem Rayburn (Member # 1267) on 07-26-2006, 05:00 PM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
The city wasn't going to build a new larger water tank because of one severe heat wave.
But, that's not what we're talking about here. California has had ongoing power problems for years. Rather than handle it, people are expected to suffer through blackouts and are urged to turn their a/c's off. If a one-time event were responsible for this, it would be understandable. That's not the case. I have no problem with conserving. It's a good thing to do. But it doesn't excuse the fact that serious problems with the power system are not being corrected.
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-26-2006, 05:23 PM:
Correct me if my recollection is wrong (getting old and senile)...
Before the shortages and Enron, didn't we hear about California not wanting to give up cheap power so that the power companies would invest in some new plants?
I heard that story... but can't make it jibe with a government that takes over the plants from the power companies (thereby making them nothing but brokers... Enron?)... then won't build new ones themselves.
I'm confused... but it sure looks like a huge governmental snafu to me.
Posted by Andy Muirhead (Member # 712) on 07-26-2006, 06:21 PM:
quote: Leo Enticknap
You can now get a wind turbine that will pump out around 1kw in a light breeze to 3kw in a strong wind, which is about the size of a rooftop TV antenna and costs about £2k including installation. A photovoltaic panel which yields 500w in average daylight comes in at around the same. At the moment you can only get this kind of technology if you put the money up front yourself. It's not a magic bullet - we'll still need electricity at night and when there's no wind.
Yeah Leo, I looked into this last year as I'm looking at a new build over in Donegal. The more I looked into it , the more excited I got at the prospect of being self sustained power wise. It's actually pretty cheap to get a 1-2K wind generated system. Relatively speaking that is, compared to getting an ESB connection to the local grid. I would say connection to the grid would be at least 2,000 Euro. About the same as a 1-2K wind system. But 1-2K really wouldn't cut it as a household supply. Naturally it gets more expensive as you up the Kw's, but it does lean on a more buck for less power curve, if you get what I mean. I believe grants are available in the UK.
Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 07-26-2006, 06:50 PM:
Calf's problems started when they stupidly tried to deregulate the power monopoly. The power companies faked shortages in order to raise rates. Here in Georgia we deregulated the natural gas monopoly. It is a big mess, and we have some of the highest gas rates in the country. Will we ever learn?
The lame "I pay for it, so I can do anything I want to" concept is what is causing shortages. We all must take responsibility for our actions. The underlying problem is that there are just too many people. Instead of giving tax breaks for kids, the government should charge extra for each child if someone has more than 2 kids. .
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-26-2006, 08:49 PM:
Wow.
I got into this thread late.
I'm glad I live in Oklahoma and not California. Actually this makes more sense over why I see so many cars with California license plates driving around here in this state.
Oklahoma has a huge surplus in engery. A lot of people think this state is shit and they do it to their own loss. Too bad.
My electric bill for June, even with 100 degree plus days and having to run that AC a lot, was less than $50. Granted I don't live in a huge house (it's only around 1500 square feet). I have friends and family in other states paying four times as much or more for electricity for the same amount of space.
We don't have rolling blackouts here. We don't have natural gas and heating oil shortages here in the winter either.
As for California, most of the cities there are contradictions in existence, especially Los Angeles. Southern California is dry, desert country that grows little if anything naturally. Just about all natural resources are imported. It does not surprise me at all when California has rolling blackouts and punishingly high cost utility bills.
The reason for this is many millions of people there are just bent to chase after some status symbol of living in California, paying an extreme premium to be in a certain location with somewhat decent scenery.
IMHO, the smartest folks in California have already been selling out and leaving.
quote: Anslem Rayburn
Well,since I'm the one that posted about the 45 minute shower thing
Exactly why would it require a man to take a shower lasting 45 minutes?
I can understand Sybil Danning and a few other tasty ladies from some "women in prison" B-movie from the 1980's taking a long, hot steamy shower. But that's about it.
My average shower lasts 5 to 10 minutes, if even that. If it's taking any longer, maybe I thought about some attractive lady and needed to jerk off a hot load. Hehe.
Perhaps I might be able to understand some lady taking a bath for 45 minutes or even longer. There's all that Calgon sprinkling and pummice stone scrubbing on foot calluses, not to mention all the body oil stuff afterward. Let's not forget the movie-style candle lighting and other girly shit to drag out the whole experience.
However...
I did take one shower that lasted longer than 45 minutes. It was at some hotel in Tulsa. I was so screwed up drunk after a big party that I pulled my still clothed carcass into the bathtub, got the shower going and then woke up hours later in the morning with people banging on the door to see if I was still alive.
Now that's how you spend more than 45 minutes in the shower!
quote: James Westbrook
If we are such a civilized, intelligent type of species, why have we not solved the electrical and water issues long before they became issues? The nimby thing?
Nope.
It's more of the "I'm going to do whatever the hell I want even if it costs you money" kind of thing.
Look at our culture that still champions filthy cigarette smoking as being cool, or pigging out on lots of artery clogging shit. "Your health insurance premiums are going up or being cancelled over it, well fuck you!" That IS our public's attitude. There is no way to deny it.
Basically American culture says you are a butt fucking pussy if you want to eat healthy and live a responsible lifestyle. The macho culture will want to sledge-hammer you in the teeth over it. Irresponsible use of natural resources goes hand in hand with this. There's lots of gay jokes about guys who drive hybrids or conserve energy or just try to live healthy. If you care about yourself, other people and especially the environment you are a pansy. That is the message.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-26-2006, 09:03 PM:
quote: Bobby Henderson
IMHO, the smartest folks in California have already been selling out and leaving.
Yeah, they are moving to Montana in droves. We have plentiful water and natural gas (and coal), AND scenery. Everything but the beach.
Some of the ex-Californians run somewhere else after they get their first taste of a Montana winter though.
Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 07-26-2006, 09:07 PM:
I don't think this is a cultural issue, but an economic/political one. I'm not an expert on Californian politics, but I'll wager some money that the state of California had either a)price controls on electricity, b)excessive enviromental regulations, or c) both.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-26-2006, 09:21 PM:
California just has way too damned many people, not enough resources, not enough infrastructure and not nearly enough of a tax base to support any of it.
Frankly, a great deal of the rest of the United States is having to carry California as a burden on its back.
Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 07-26-2006, 09:23 PM:
Mike B. and Bruce H. have pretty much nailed our power problem.
Stupid deregulation in the 90's (ex-Gov. Pete Wilson, politicians of both parties, and their industry cronies) was/is indeed the main reason we're in the fix we're in. There's plenty of 'documentation' of the history (and effects) of this fiasco on the web. We're really just now feeling the full effects of this disaster in wrong-headed thinking. (We aren't the only state that jumped on the 'deregulation bandwagon' of the time.)
Basically, everyone in the know was betting on imported power -always- being cheaper to buy elsewhere than the cost of building new generating capacity within California. (Even if they could get it approved .. nearly impossible here, as has been said .. NIMBY) Bsssst .. WRONG!
The power companies (stockholders) sure didn't want to foot the bill for new capacity. Or for much of anything. They also wanted out of any stockholder-liability for decommissioning their aging generation facilities (passing the costs to ratepayers, instead), and only wanted to keep the lucrative distribution end. They've pretty much gotten their wish.
Since then, they've drastically cut their workforces (especially PG&E, which is also in bankruptcy, further 'insulating' it from liability), not invested in distribution upgrades as they should have, etc., etc.
The population has rapidly increased. People seem to demand HUGE over-sized (energy-wasting) housing. There are more engergy-wasting toys being plugged-in every day. The list of woes goes on.
There's LOTS more to all of this. I have a headache just thinking about it. time! At least it's a little cooler today!
Ron Yost
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-26-2006, 11:53 PM:
quote: Bruce Hansen
The power companies faked shortages in order to raise rates.
I;m not so sure they did. A guy that I used to work with at GTS went to work for Idaho Power... tey sell alot of excess electricity to CA. He happened to be in charge of routing electrical power to neighboring states in the main office in Boise. There was a time about 6 years ago when CA. couldn't afford to pay Idaho for the power and he came daarn close to to re-routing that power elsewhere for non-payment. At the last minuite they didn't cut the power but it came with in minutes....
Mark
Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-27-2006, 03:05 AM:
Fortunatly, it's things like this that makes me want to look for self sufficentcy. While where I live, it'd be near impossible to setu up full, self sufficency, I could, say, run off of roof mounted solar panels mostly, and at night, or for overflow, run from the city's service. Solar panels are expensive, which is why I haven't done it yet, but I plan to ass soon as I can. Likewise, I want to look into an electric conversion kit for a car. That way I can buy a car that is in good condition, except for a blown engine, for probably cheap due to the blown engine. Pull the engine and put in the kit. That way for short trips, such as to/from work/store, I wouldn't have to worry about the gas prices. Wouldn't go on vacation in it tho, limited range. There again, something that I have to save up for.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-27-2006, 03:44 AM:
I point in California's general direction an laugh at it and the people who live there. Your problems do amuse me so!
[ 07-27-2006, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Joe Redifer ]
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-27-2006, 09:25 AM:
Locally (Kentucky) power is plentiful, but deferred maintenance (anyone work for any large circuit, here) has meant that split poles, tree trimming, etc are not resolved. Any wind or heavy rain and we are down for hours, days, weeks.
I finally gave up and installed a 40KW propane generator with automatic cutover. All upscale new homes now come that way. Louis
Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 07-27-2006, 06:34 PM:
BTW, when I spoke of the electric suppliers feeding Calf. faking shortages I was refering to these suppliers all shutting down plants "for maintaince" at the same time, and then claiming shortages, and raising rates. This was proven in court, and the companies had to pay fines for their hoax.
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-28-2006, 08:52 AM:
For those from other places: so many people live in California, and there are so few resources (power & water) that most of the states in the western half of the US export resources to keep CA afloat.
California now feels "entitled" to the existing situation. I assure you that if I lived in these exporting states, and felt a need to develop economically, I would cut Calif. off without a prayer.Louis
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-28-2006, 05:24 PM:
If it's any consolation, Central London got hit by power cuts, too yesterday. Sounds like consumers tried to turn on more fans, fridges and a/c units than there was electricity to power - simple as that.
Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 07-28-2006, 10:19 PM:
John:
I thought sodium bi-carb was used to assist in balancing pH.?
BTW,
How do you people who set your T-Stat at 75+ deal with it? With an avg. humididty level of %75+, I'd be shriveled up to nothing and divorced to boot. I have mine set at 72 all the time. The last few days... it won't get below 74 in the house anyway.. at least during the daylight. At night, It'll get to 70 or below if set so.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-28-2006, 10:45 PM:
I use fans to boost the air conditioning's efficiency. Blow the heat out of the upstairs rooms/attic so the central air doesn't have to work so hard.
The fan has a built in thermostat. It kicks on when the temperature goes above 75º.
The air conditioning in my house turns on for the first time some time around 12:00 - 1:00 PM each day. It runs intermittently throughout the day until about 5:00 - 6:00 PM. If it's extra hot outside, it will run one or two more times during the night but, by midnight, it's done for the day. We can reverse the fans upstairs to blow in relatively cool night air, then set them to blow out again in the morning.
The temperature in the upstairs bedroom never goes above 80º even when it's 90º+ outside at high noon.
Like I said before. It's not WHETHER you use air conditioning and fans. It's HOW you use it.
Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 07-29-2006, 05:18 PM:
The behavior demonstrated regarding the usage of shared resources (electricity, water etc.) has been described as The tragedy of the commons.
If any one person uses more than their share of resources it is likely that there will be enough supply, however if everybody (or at least a majority) uses more than their share the resources will not be able to cope.
This is made worse by the fact that it is rational for people to use more resources, because they will gain from doing so (economically or , in comfort etc.) whilst only depleting the supply slightly (although the cumulative effect may be great).
[ 05-09-2008, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Mark Hajducki ]
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-31-2006, 11:20 AM:
quote: Jason Black
John:
I thought sodium bi-carb was used to assist in balancing pH.?
Sodium Bi-Carbonate can be used, but usually Sodium Carbonate is used:
MSDS for Tabex pH Up
http://www.answers.com/topic/sodium-carbonate
quote:
sodium carbonate, chemical compound, Na2CO3, soluble in water and very slightly soluble in alcohol. Pure sodium carbonate is a white, odorless powder that absorbs moisture from the air, has an alkaline taste, and forms a strongly alkaline water solution. It is one of the most basic industrial chemicals. Sodium carbonate decahydrate, Na2CO3·10H2O, is a colorless, transparent crystalline compound commonly called sal soda or washing soda. Because seaweed ashes were an early source of sodium carbonate, it is often called soda ash or, simply, soda.
Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM
6.3.1.2