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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-26-2006, 08:43 PM:
 
I've got an old Zenith console radio/record player in my garage. It's been in the family for a long time, sitting in the basement collecting dust. It's time to either sell it or get rid of it.

It's a Zenith Model 10S690. According to the internet resources I've found it was made in 1942. A model in good contition should sell for $300-$400.

Mine's not in that great of a contition.

Take a look HERE ===> Zenith Model 10S690

I'm thinking I should ask $200 and be happy to get $100.

Also, what would be the benefit of me working on it and spricing it up a little? The tuner needs restrung and there are a few pieces of loose trim. I could spend some time to clean it up and get it presentable.

How much work should I put into it, if any?

T.I.A.
 

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Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 07-26-2006, 11:55 PM:
 
If I were you, Id keep it in the family. All it probably needs is new caps and some tweeking, along with the cabinet repairs. The turntable might come back to life with some oil.

Those old Zenith's were really nice units.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-27-2006, 12:41 AM:
 
How do you stand on refinishing?

A lot of hard-core furniture collectors don't want any refinishing at all. Other say that, once the original finish is damaged, it's better to redo it, even at the expense of the old stain and varnish. Then there are still others who say the finish doesn't matter. Do what you want.

Personally, I stand somewhere in the middle. If the original is stil salvageable I'd like to keep it.

How would a careful treatment of a commercial wood cleaner like "Scott's Liquid Gold", etc. affect it?

If I do repair the radio, how far should I go? Just replace any visibly damaged/worn outparts or go, whole hog, for a complete rebuild, wire and all?

If I was to sell it. Would I see a reasonable chance of return on the investment?
 

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-27-2006, 02:51 AM:
 
Yay, tubes! Get you some literature on Vacuum Tubes. There are places to get a testing kit, where you can check to see if a tube is out, and if it still falls within specs. Datasheets for the tubes in the radio are a necessity, you can find them online at various sites, usually by the tube number. While you can buy alot of tubes NOS, some may have gone bad on the shelf over the years, be careful. Some of the Tubes may not be available anymore, don't fret. There are charts floating around where you can cross reference a substitute or updated model to replace it with. And you can still get many tubes straight up new.
Tubes get weak with use, especially high powered ones, not to mention the tubes in your radio are old, age wise, in addition to wear wise. Many may need to be replaced, then again, they may not. I'd be tempted to clean it up, visually check everything (some tubes may have a siverised or smoked appearance. This may be a normal side effect of their sealing process, or it may mean its blown. Information can be found on the internet that will tell you if the tube should have that smoaked appearance or not), make sure wires and connections are good, and try it.

What? No magic eye? So how are you supposed to tell if you're properly tuned in without it?
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-27-2006, 10:23 AM:
 
Charles,

Vacuum tubes are not alien to me.

I went to Vo-Tech when I was in high school and studied electronics. Our first full project was to build an audio amplifier entirely out of vacuum tubes, power supply and all.

Our second assignment was to swap projects with another student. We would secretly "unfix" some part of the other's rig. Then, we took our own projects back and tried to figure out what was wrong with it.

Most of the kids did silly things like short out the power supply leads with paper clips. But I did something really sneaky. If a guy didn't take care to label his chassis with the part numbers of the tubes, it was a simple matter to swap them around.

The other nasty trick people liked to pull was to swap the neutral and hot leads on the line cord. The project was designed with chassis ground. Our teacher made it clear that the line cord was supposed to be connected a certain way.

When you got your project back from the "unfixer" the first things you checked for were a shorted or misconnected line cord then you went through to make sure the tubes were all in the right place.

It took one kid a couple DAYS to figure out why his project kept going up in smoke! It's funny how swapping a couple of tubes can do that!
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-27-2006, 10:48 AM:
 
During high school and college, I had collected and repaired several of these old Philco and Zenith console radios. I remember a 1940's Silvertone unit that could actually make 78rpm recordings on Wilcox-Gay Recordio disks. When I first moved to Rochester, I did not have room in my apartment for them. Oh how I wish I still had them!
 

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-27-2006, 10:04 PM:
 
Yeah, I'd love to have an old tube radio. The modern lookalikes are cool, but I know, it's not the real thing. To me, that's important. I also want a pedistal TV, but those are hard to come by, so I may have to modify a more modern TV to have the tube up on a pedistal, while "hiding" the electronics in a vintage looking base. Still not the real thing, but as good as I can get. Fortunatly for my last wish, I'd like a real gramophone. It's fortunate because they make exact, working replicas.

Didn't mean to insult your tube saviness, Randy. You wouldn't beleive how people get confused when you even mention the words Vacuum Tube. Heck, if I wasn't so into old technology (and new), I probably wouldn't have a clue. I would have enjoyed going to your tech school, at least then.
 

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Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-27-2006, 10:59 PM:
 
Randy,

Look at "The Antique Radio Forums" on the web http://antiqueradios.com/forums/
There are also some books out about antique radio collecting. You can finds loads of info on the above listed forum including links to other sites.

There are many factors that contribute to the $$ value of antique radios: the amount of tubes, manufacturer and rarity of model as well as the aesthetic design of the cabinet.

Radios w/12 tubes or more are usually the high $$ radios. My 16 tube RCA 816K is worth about $1200.00. It was an excellent radio in what many consider to be a not so attractive cabinet, hence the low $$ value. On the other hand Zeniths (depending on the model) can be high $$ items...as Zeniths were known for their wonderful aesthetic dial faces and art-deco cabinetry. Probably one of the most sought after collector radios is the 1935-1938 Zenith 1000Z Stratosphere. I think they were about $750.00 new and were only built when specifically ordered. Around 300 were built and around 40 are known to exist. A few recently came up for auction...one was incomplete and went for about $55K and another sold at an estate sale for around $70k. You can find info about this radio on the internet.

About restoration: there are many different opinions and I have seen many an debate and argument lately. There are those who believe that original radios should not be restored to working order hence ruining their history. While there are those who want restored working radios.

I am currently restoring my 816K to working condition, but have made some compromises. First, all the insulation on the original wire is 100% shot. And this wire was lacquered cloth covered to aide in color coding...thats how they did it back then. Anyhow, all the colors I need are not available so I compromised. I am using 18AWG UL 1015 throughout. While no lacquered/cloth...it is all non the less the correct color coding.

Another area for debate is original capacitors. Original caps are part of original aesthetics and there are a variety of methods used to recap a radio. Most of those old caps are quite large, and there are people who have devised methods of restuffing original casings with new caps to maintain original appearance. In any case, one must be VERY careful of the electrolytic caps. When bad they will cause the infamous radio hum and can destroy components such as transformers, etc. But never eliminate the old top mounted canister E-Caps...they can be stuffed or insulated terminal lugs soldered on with new caps installed. Those top mounted "cans" are ctritical to original appearance.

All of the structural sheetmetal components on my radio were cadmium plated. Cadmium plating was used due to its high corrosion protective properties, electrical conductivity and solderability. But over time cadmium can break down turning into the infamous white powder residue. And cadmium is a toxic material. I am having my parts replated in electroless nickel, which will have a period correct finish, required electrical and mechanical properties but without the toxicity.

I hope some of this rambling helps.

Kutler
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-27-2006, 11:22 PM:
 
I'm guessing that people who buy old radios would either want to fix them up themselves or would want them in good, working condition, even if they aren't 100% original. Right?

Seeing as how old electronic components like caps and wires with brittle insulation have a tendancy to go up in smoke, I imagine most folks would rather have a safe radio than one in all-original condition.

Right now, I'm thinking I should take the chassis out of the cabinet and, at minimum, give it a good, careful cleaning. If I see any damaged wires, etc., replace them then replace the tubes and see if it works. Then, replacing the caps would be next.

I gather that restringing the tuner can be a real bitch. I believe mine uses a rubberized fabric band instead of twine.

I think I'm willing to spend $100 on it more or less, depending on the price of tubes. I'll fix up any loose trim then give the outside a treatment of wood cleaner like "Life O' Wood" and that should be it.

If I did that, I should be able to ask for $400 and settle for $300. No?
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-27-2006, 11:25 PM:
 

quote: Randy Stankey

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If I did that, I should be able to ask for $400 and settle for $300. No?

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NO! After you give it all that loving care it'll be way too hard to part with... thats why I have 9 old B&W 1940's televisions.

Mark
 

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Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-28-2006, 12:29 AM:
 
I did not expect to spend the amount of $$ as I am on the 816K...I did not think that it required as much work as I am putting into it.

The 816K uses 12 different colors of wire 6 solid and 6 striped. 25ft rolls set me back about $70.00. Cap kit was about $25.00. Plating....WOW on the pocket book + needing to purchase correct semi-hollow shanked rivets. The Rivet King has a $50.00 min order, so it's the rivets + the cost of the rivet set. Resistors are another cost. I was thinking of having the x-formers gone over....another $$ cost...and it keeps going on from there.

Right now I do not have a place to refinish my cabinet. If I opted for outsourcing...another major $$$$!

And speaking of cabinet refinishing...another debate among restorers. The debates usually revolve around proper methods of veneer repair/replacement the need for grain filler and the type of finish and how to get a proper original look. My 816K had a lacquer finish, hence no stain penetrating the wood. And I will refinish w/lacquer...even if the patina that only comes with age is not reproduced. But ther are was of artifically creating that patina.

What I hate dealing with in any kind of restoration, whether radio, car or whatever is having to correct jury-rigged repairs and "modifications". Luucky for the welding shop at school...the acetylene torch, brazing rod, Swiss files and wet/dry paper used to repair some areas on a part where non-original holes were sloppily drilled. After plating all should be like new.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-28-2006, 10:39 AM:
 
That radio sat in our living room, when I was a kid, for years. We used to race our Hot Wheels cars over the top of it. Our parents hid Easer eggs in the storage bins underneath. There are a lot of memories wrapped up inside it.

I just don't think there's room for it in our house. There isn't any room for it at my mother's house. If I kept it, the thing would be resigned to the basement or the garage.

I've been wavering on this subject for years. It finally had to come out of my mother's basement and move to my garage. She was going to sell it at a garage sale for $50. I knew I could get at least $100 out of it so I took it and stashed it at my house.

It's been ages since it was even plugged in, let alone turned on. I'd be hesitant to power it up for fear it would go up in smoke. The very minimum that needs to be done is to pull the chassis out and give it a checkup.

I'd never let it go out of here without doing that. I'd hate to think of something bad happening when somebody plugged it in and tried to turn it on but it went, "P-fffff!"

When it comes to repairs and restorations I try to do as much as possible to keep things the way they originally were. I take things apart carefully and try to document the way I found them, either by taking digital pictures or drawing diagrams. When I take projectors apart I lay everything out on a sheet of newspaper and use a Sharpie marker to make notes on the paper, how everything went together. Even if it's a repair that I've done many times, I still lay out a sheet of newspaper to keep parts organized. (God! I HATE searching for that one last screw!)

So... Unfortunately, I'm afraid it's going to have to find a new home. Maybe, once I get working on it, things will change. If I can turn it on and let Melanie listen to it, maybe she'll decide she likes it and let it into the house.

I don't know. Wait and see, I guess.
 

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Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 07-28-2006, 11:31 AM:
 
Randy,

Id replace the electrolytic caps before anything else. You probably dont need to replace all of the tubes. I have several 1930's-1950's radios, and TV's with mostly original tubes still working just fine in them. A good thing for you would be to lay hands on a good tube checker and test what you have. Weak audio output tubes are generally still OK for awhile before you really need to replace them.

I like the lemon oil approach to cabinets. It really makes them shine. Liquid Gold just seems to soak into the wood and go away.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-29-2006, 09:09 PM:
 
I took the chassis out of the cabinet today. I found good news and bad news.

The good news is that I was able to restring the tuner fairly easily. The belt had just slipped the track. But for the dust and cobwebs inside, it looks like it might just work, still.

The bad news is that it's a lot more complex inside than I had imagined. Changing out all the caps will be a LOT more time consuming than I first thought.

There's NO WAY I could ever do this job without the service manual(s). It's been such a long time since I worked on tubes that I hardly remember which pins are the filaments and which are the grids.

There are so many little ceramic trimmers and adjustable ferrite inductors in there, tuning the thing after replacing the caps would be nearly impossible without the manual.

I'm going to have to rethink my strategy.

From the looks of it, none of the wires underneath the chassis are frayed or broken. I don't see any safety hazards there. The caps LOOK okay but I know that those old wax paper and mineral oil capacitors can look allright and still be bad.

I think if I cleaned it out and replaced any bad tubes it would still work. The tuner fins are REALLY dusty!

I'm going to do some more research and give it some more thought before I go ahead with my plans.
 

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Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-29-2006, 10:36 PM:
 
Hi Randy

If you go over to Antique Radio Forums like I previously posted then someone is bound to have your manual. There is one person who has posted many manuals on-line and several are also now available on CD.

Cleaning the tuning condensor can be tedious. You may be able to remove the entire condensor as a single unit and ultrasonically clean it. The real pain-in-the-ass to clean is all the dust and dirt off of wax covered oscillator coils. Many coil forms were cardboard and the wax seals out moisture and keeps the windings in place. By sealing out condensation, the wax stabalizes the cardboard coil forms and prevents them from changing size, which can throw the radio out of wack! Luckily my 816K coil forms are pheonolic. I am carefully removing the filthy dirt encrusted wax with a hair drier and Q-Tips ~ VERY lite application of heat. I am replacing the wax with a newer product called Q-Dope.

De-Ox-It brand has many different electronic cleaning products suitable to antique radio restoration.

Also Randy, back in the day capicators (especially E-caps) were very expensive to produce. Hence the huge variety of voltage values in old sets. When recapping an antique radio 630 volt caps (for paper replacement) is the norm. Anyhow take a look at Dave Cantelon's web site for excellent info about recapping.

Next to caps, resistors are the next big culprit.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-29-2006, 11:54 PM:
 
I've actually got a thread going on antiqueradios.com already.

One guy there, Dennis, says its a fairly common radio. I probably shouldn't put too much into it unless it's for my own gratification.

I'm toying with an idea:

What if I took the phonograph out and replaced it with a CD player?

It'd only play back in mono, of course. I'd have to make a matching box to interface the phono cartridge input to the CD.
But, wouldn't it be neat to open up the drawer where the phono used to be and find a CD?

The thing isn't rare or expensive. Nobody plays 78 speed records anymore. Getting it to play CDs might even add to the value.

I've still got a fair amount of homework to do before I decide to rewire and recap the thing. Yes, there are a couple of wax paper inductors inside there. I'll have to be careful of them.

I don't think I need to get all the specially striped wire like you did. I could just use the standard stuff.

Do I need to be super careful about getting the wires all back in their original paths? Some of them seem to be convoluted.

Can I just rewire like they taught me in Tech School? Or, do I have to make sure that everythig is the way it was originally?
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-30-2006, 12:06 AM:
 

quote: Randy Stankey

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Nobody plays 78 speed records anymore.

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I do on my wind up Victrola. Everyone that comes over HAS to hear it and there is some fascinating stuff out there on 78 records!! Some stuff is very valualable... 78 is cool dude . My Victrola sits next to my 1946 RCA Television.

Mark
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-30-2006, 12:50 AM:
 
Okay. I stand corrected:

"Nobody plays 78 records any more except Mark Gulbrandsen."

But we don't have any 78s any more and it would probably cost too much money to get the phonograph working again. A cheap-o CD player and the matching box to interface it to the phono input would probaly cost less than fixing a turntable that would rarely, if ever, used again.

Don't you think the novelty of being able to play CDs on WWII vintage audio equipment would make it a great conversation piece?
 

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-30-2006, 03:35 AM:
 
I'd make it a modular snap in replacment for the cartridge. I wouldn't make it a mod to the unit itself. Also, regarding the tibes, and not remembering what pins were the filament and whatnot. If you remember, this varied from tube to tube and manufaturer to manufacturer. You can find datasheets for those tubes online that will tell you. I know I had to for some I have. Though, that may take some time to do, if you're radio has alot of tubes. Some of those manuals don't actually tell what pin goes to what, just the fact that Tube 2 is a 6EN4, and what other components it connects to. Some of those manuals can be that vague, yet some are very explicit. I don't know how well Zenith did their manuals back then.
 

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Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 07-30-2006, 06:27 AM:
 
Rand,

You sound like you don't understand the true meaning of the "R" words.

RESTORATION returning the item to its original condition using the same materials thus preserving its authenticity, an antique

RENOVATION making an item into something other than originally intended, destroying the historic value for a new use

I think the CD player idea is a renovation. Like in the movies where you can add color to an originally black and white feature.

KEN
 

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Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-30-2006, 09:37 AM:
 
Kenneth,

HOW TRUE ! With the restoration of my RCA 816K I am forced into some compromises that might make purists squirm. For example the wire I am using. Unfortunately all the correct cloth covered wire is not available to me, but the compromise is that all of my color coding is correct. Another compromise. My original power cord has long since disappeared. According to the RCA books the outlet plug contained two glass fuses. Unfortunately an exact repro is not available and I have not been successful in finding a parts chassis with a good plug. But the compromise is that I have found a modern plug of the same design principle, using a modern type fuse.

Randy,

Rather than disposing of the original record player you might be able to put a CD player on a table next to this unit and simply connect it to the existing record player terminals. My RCA 816K of 1938 vintage has connection for external record player, and in all probability I could also hook up a CD player or tape deck to that same accessory terminal.

BTW 78's are collectable and readily available. And a properly functioning Victrola, good needles and decent CD's can still put out excellent sound!

There is one modification that I think is readily accepted in antique radio restoration. That is the placement of the safety cap circuit on the primary side of the power transformer. Dave Cantelon of JustRadios.com explains how o do this on his website. This is a safety issue that will eliminate the ole "tube radios pose fatal electrical hazzards".
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-30-2006, 10:42 AM:
 
Ken,

I have considered whether or not to restore the unit to original (or near-original) condition.

I've been researching this model and its history for a while, now. Without coming right out and saying it, most people seem to imply that the Zenith 10S690 is "Dime-a-Dozen."

A unit in pristine, original condition might sell in $300 or $400, tops but it would have to be in mint condition. Mine is definately not anywhere near that. One guy even told me that he bought a near-perfect unit at a garage sale for $90. He probably weaseled the owner into giving him a better price but, still, I can't expect to get more than a couple hundred for it, even if I restore it to its former glory.

To restore the cabinet to original condition would cost me at least $100 if I did it myself. (Grille cloth and drawer handles/hardware all need to be replaced.) It's probably going to cost me another $100-$200 to do the electrical restorations. Adding that up, I've already potentially spent more money than the thing is worth.

It'd be silly to treat it like a museum piece.

As you know, old radios have a tendancy to go up in smoke.

I would NEVER sell it to somebody who didn't know what they were getting, lest their house burns down when the radio goes up in flames.

So, that puts me in a sticky situation:

1) Spend a lot of money to make it reasonably safe to operate and risk not recouping my expense.

2) Sell it off to a collector, as-is, and get $100 for it, if I'm lucky.

3) Work on it for my own gratification and, maybe, get it into safe, working condition for my own use.

Right now, I'm shooting for #3. But my wife would never let it into the house if it wasn't safe and it didn't play music that she can listen to. The AM broadcast bands in this area are all "Talk Radio" or "Music of Your Life" stations. We'd never be able to find 78 speed records that she'd like.

So, the only way to make it play today's music would be to install a CD player in it, somehow.

I do like the idea of just setting a CD player on top of the cabinet and simply hooking it up to the phono input. I could simply clean the cobwebs out of the phonograph and put it back the way I found it. It doesn't need to work since I probably never would use it beyond curiosity.

So... If I go straight to the phono input with a CD player's output, would I need to do anything to match the impedance and/or the line level? Or could I just adapt the plug and let 'er rip?
 

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Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-30-2006, 10:49 AM:
 
Randy

Not sure about the impedence or line level. Mark G. could probably best answer that question.

One thing that you mentioned in one of your previous posts was a question regarding what is termend "precautionary lead dress".

The service manuals should give you all the info regarding "precautionary lead dress". There are leads that may be called out to a specific length. Some leads may require twisting. And others may specify the physical placement of leads in relation to the radio chassis and other components.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-30-2006, 12:02 PM:
 
One guy on the radio forum mentioned that there was something called a "gimmick" inside the chassis, used to add a hair bit of capacatance, here or there. It's a piece of wire, twisted around one of the leads but not actually connected to anything.

When we were taught to build those tube amplifiers at Vo-tech, we had to maintain certian standards of isolation by keeping wires away from power supply leads and such.

I suppose I'm going to have to get the manuals and do some studying before I take on the job.

Assuming I have the manuals and considering the level of detail I want to put into this restoration, as I mentioned above, is there any reason I can't simply order parts from Mouser or Digi-Key or Allied? They would probably be the cheapest source.

I don't see why I need to spend a lot of extra money on cloth covered wire and exact visual replicas of the old caps as long as I use wires and components that are of the right specs and color codes. No?
 

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-30-2006, 12:58 PM:
 

quote: Randy Stankey

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is there any reason I can't simply order parts from Mouser or Digi-Key or Allied?

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quote: Charles Greenlee

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...It was 2x if not 3x as loud ans it should have been...

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