Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: How'd they USED to make subtitles?

This is topic How'd they USED to make subtitles? in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Wayne Keyser (Member # 2420) on 08-25-2006, 08:33 PM:

I grew up on a steady diet of art-house, repertory-house and film society showings. And I always wondered how did they used to get the subtitles on 16mm and 35mm foreign-language films?

The letters always had that unique sharp edge that looked like it had been literally etched into the print - that, to my mind, ruled out any kind of bi-pack printing, maybe even ruled out double-exposure in the interpositive (though maybe that was it). The look was so different from anything else I'd ever seen (except things scratched into the emulsion) that I just couldn't figure it out - still can't.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-25-2006, 08:53 PM:

And while you experts are explaining this old stuff, how about the "bouncing ball" they used to have on song lyrics? That can't be full blown animation can it?

Posted by Wayne Keyser (Member # 2420) on 08-26-2006, 12:11 AM:

The bouncing ball I know: white ball on a black stick in before a black backdrop, filmed in real time, then a high-contrast double-exposure over the title cards.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-26-2006, 03:33 AM:

Bouncing balls weren't always on film; sometimes they performed 'live'. A Brenograph attachment was available to project a bouncing ball from one lantern, and lantern slides with the words from the other. Come to think about it, you could get attachemnts to do just about anything with a Brenograph. I've only ever seen one once, and it took two operators on the machine to use the thing, one changing the slides and the other bouncing the ball. I'm not sure if it was made by Brenkert, or if it was a third-party product; it doesn't appear in their catalogue.

I suppose you could do it without even having the attachment by using a pinhole slide, and moving the main mirror by hand, but the attachment made it easier. It had a rod with a knob on the end; you twisted the rod to move the ball up and down, and puled it in and out to move from side to side.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 08-26-2006, 10:33 AM:

Laser or chemical etching is used for existing prints and small runs. Larger runs usually will have a subtitle negative shot for the print order. Sometimes when used prints are recycled for foreign markets, the laser / chemical titles may go out of synronisation if the running length is altered.
Max Fleisher of Betty Boop and Popeye fame did a series of boucung ball cartoons in the 1920 - 1930's period which where very popular and profitable since they where so low cost [Cool]

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 08-26-2006, 12:46 PM:

One of my favorite "bouncing ball" cartoons:

In My Merry Oldsmobile

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 08-26-2006, 12:58 PM:

I'm partial to this one. This uses a crawling text with a white circle on a stick. You can see the circle cover up the letters occasionally.

Let's All Sing With Popeye (Public Domain BitTorrent)

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-27-2006, 03:25 AM:

Cinetitres used to have an embossing machine that physically pressed the subtitles into the emulsion of the prints- Letterpress fashion. Looked like hell on the screen, the text all swirling around with loose bits of emulsion and such.

The big thing, though, was you didnt need to make special print runs for foreign versions -- you could used the standard domestic release prints.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-28-2006, 11:00 AM:

Subtitles can be done in several ways:

1. Optically printed or output (e.g., laser film recorder) onto the printing negative.

2. Use a subtitle negative that is "bi-pack" printed to hold back exposure from the lettered area.

3. Wax-etch or chemical-etch method: The processed print is coated with a thin layer of wax, then the subtitles are embossed into each wax-coated frame. The film is then put into a strong bleach, that bleaches out the film emulsion in the title areas. The wax is then removed using a solvent.

4. Laser subtitles: a powerful laser "writes" the titles onto each frame of a processed print. The print is then rewashed to remove the charred debris from the titles.

The wax-etch and laser subtitling methods usually remove the emulsion, so the title is at a slightly different focus than the actual picture image.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 09-01-2006, 06:43 AM:

In Cyprus we use both Wax etching and Laser Subtitling depending on the distribution company. I hate Laser in some old cinemas especially in Scope. (please don't give me the link to the tip about focussing films in scope) [Smile]

. Something though that I have noticed is that a problem in scope focussing is when the lens is in two parts (standard and anamorphic). When the lens is 1 part full then focussing is no problem!
D