Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: THX completely out of business ???

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Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 10-29-2003, 04:14 PM:

IN THE USA:
Enter a State (2-letter abbreviation), Zip Code (returns all cinemas within 50 miles) or City.

OUTSIDE THE USA:
Enter a City or Country.

Search For:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No THX Certified Cinemas were found matching "NEW YORK" as the City, State, or Country.

Same search tried for "Los Angeles", "Denmark", and "Copenhagen"
with same result.

[Confused]

Per

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 10-29-2003, 04:21 PM:

The THX website didn't load at all in Opera -- all white screen.

It did find the local Carmike 10 here in Huntsville, although it only lists one auditorium, while there are 4 THX auditoriums at that complex. Carmike and THX have disagreed on the number of THX auditoriums since at least the year 2000. 1, 5, 6, and 10 are THX auditoriums there.

Typing in a 2-letter state like AL caused a server error.

THX could have been a great thing if theatres had been reinspected. As it was, theatres simply paid to continue the THX designation, making the designation mean nothing other than "It was at one point in the past up to THX standards. Since that point in time, we've paid THX each year. The auditorium may or not be up to THX standards now."

Where THX went wrong was branching out to certify items that were of inherent low quality. Examples: VHS transfers of movies and computer speakers. They should have stuck with high end items like anamorphic DVD transfers (some THX certified DVD transsfers were non-anamorphic widescreen!) and high-quality full-sized home theatre speakers and components.

I never hear any of my friends mention THX any more in relation to theatres around here. I remember seeing a THX trailer played a few months ago. It was a flat trailer (either moo can or the robot one) with the scope lens and aperture in front of a scope movie. It was very scratched and played in analog. What kind of message does that send?

THX-certified video games? [From Joe's comment below] Why? Just to make money and keep the company alive in any way possible?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-29-2003, 04:28 PM:

THX is starting to give their "seal of approval" to videogames. Something from Electronic Arts will be the first game, so I don't think they are completely gone.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-29-2003, 04:50 PM:

Evans said"THX could have been a great thing if theatres had been reinspected. As it was, theatres simply paid to continue the THX designation, making the designation mean nothing other than "It was at one point in the past up to THX standards. Since that point in time, we've paid THX each year. The auditorium may or not be up to THX standards now.""

THX has been getting tougher on getting recertifications done and in most cases were it had lapsed they require it to meet the standards of a new digital equiped new build

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-29-2003, 04:57 PM:

I have to wonder if the THX spec has been "watered down" with respect to stadium seated theaters. Most THX certified stadium seated theaters I have visited have really not sounded very good at all, at least not as good as a traditional sloped auditorium.

The combination of stadium seating and digital sound has really hurt THX in the case of marketing. Most theater companies think it is enough to have digital surround sound and stadium seating without there being any need for THX. Up until 1995 lots of theaters were being built with THX certified screens. After the stadium seating trend began in 1995 new auditoriums with THX really fell off fast.

Posted by Andrew Lee (Member # 1330) on 10-29-2003, 05:07 PM:

Money can't buy you love nor true happiness, but it can buy you THX product certification.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-29-2003, 07:09 PM:

Up here Famous Players actually has the majority of there major market stadiums THX approved and most are well above spec

Actually Imax's Sonics division attempted to market an excellent designed THX approved speaker for regular stadium cinemas. It regretably fell by the wayside

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 10-29-2003, 10:17 PM:

THX certified video games? It was ridiculous when they announced their certified car audio systems.

It seems like more of a marketing gag then a assurance of quality.

Posted by Kris Brunton (Member # 432) on 10-29-2003, 10:32 PM:

The Sonics system that they tested was very promising. Gordon, it fell by the wayside with the closing of the Sonics office did it not? I think I still have some info around here about the speakers. They had marketing material finished for the product.

Posted by Bill Mantz (Member # 754) on 10-30-2003, 01:30 AM:

With Carmike theaters they are just paying for the name THX I worked at one for a few months and the theaters that were suppose to be THX certified were by far not not up to the minimum standards of THX certification. They had two houses Supposely Certified I came in to work my shift on Monday and the one house that had DTS had no disc in the unit playing no digital sound all weekend when the disc were just sitting right next to the player and not inserted into the player and the player was not broken or anything and the other THX certhified house Had a lamp in the lamphouse that was over a year old and was black When I removed it to show all the other people at the theater on how to change a bulb in the lamphouse But to this day they still advertise the theathers are THX certified when no one at any of the Carmike thethers in the area really do not even know how the projection equipment works. So even if someone is advertising THX certified theater I would really take an extra look to see if they are remotely at any THX standards.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 10-30-2003, 02:49 AM:

quote:
...the one house that had DTS had no disc in the unit playing no digital sound all weekend

Just because they weren't playing the sound in digital doesn't mean they aren't THX compliant. Just that they are irresponsible and/or lazy.

It is even possible to have 'THX mono' sound (a mono print [Woody Allen for example] played in a THX auditorium)...

quote:
So even if someone is advertising THX certified theater I would really take an extra look to see if they are remotely at any THX standards.

With the TAP program discontinued, and Creative THX calling the shots, apparently just about ANYTTHING could potentially qualify as being 'in THX compliance'. If they are paying for the name, they can call themselves THX-compliant- this is now an unfortunate fact of life [Frown]

-Aaron

Posted by Bill Mantz (Member # 754) on 10-30-2003, 03:13 AM:

That is very true Aaron, since THX Standards were made before Digital Sound was even out. But it seems to me these days that the name of THX is Just being bought just to attrach people to theaters of products baring the name since THX themselfs are not checking these theaters or products bareing there name it dose not seem to be worth seeking out anything that has the THX name on it.

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 10-30-2003, 03:38 AM:

Bill,

That has to be one of the longest sentences I have ever read. That said, THX shot itself in the foot with the exhorbant recert fees required annually. The inception was a decent idea, the execution, OTOH, suffered quite a bit and ultimately led to it's demise (IMO).

Besides, as my supervisor states, until the industry (and our company) focuses on IMAGING, who gives a damn about sound? What, you can have your ears blown out from a print that is unstable or has hot spots onscreen?

I prefer clarity, not "blarity". [Moon]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-30-2003, 10:25 AM:

The REcert fees were not that expensive considering that it includes the rental of the crossover cards

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 10-30-2003, 06:07 PM:

Many theaters never took advantage of the marketing aspects of THX certification and therefore, saw no financial gain from being certified. So when it came to be re-certified, they didn't bother.

Without knowing the exact facts, I believe this is what happened to the few theaters in NYC that used to be THX certified. They include the Loews Lincoln Square Screen #1 (which still has a sign claiming to be THX), the Loews Orpheum screen #7, the Loews Village screen #3, the UA Union Square screens #3 and #8 and the Clearview Chelsea screens #6 and #7. The now defunct Cineplex-Odeon Worldwide (which was a discount theater) also had one THX certified screen. Of these, the Loews Lincoln Square screen #1 ("the Loews") sounds the best by far.

But none of these theaters ever advertised in the newspapers that they were THX certified. And none had any indication at the boxoffice that they were certified. The UA14 had a poster in the lobby and as stated, the Loews Lincoln Square has a poster in front of the entrance to that screen (as does the Orpheum), but that's it. IMHO, that was pretty stupid. THX should have had a marketing requirement as well as an equipment, EQ and ambient noise level requirement.

Edit:
The AMC Bay Plaza Cinema #1 in the Bronx is still certified.
And here are the basic certification requirements: THX Certification Requirements

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 10-31-2003, 01:03 AM:

Supposedly one of our houses was THX certified, but I never saw ads or anything for it since the place has been open. It was, however, the best sounding theater I've ever been in. Now, after a year of neglect, it is a shadow of its former self. You also know it's bad when the manager does not even care about that fact. They also think that nobody cares in general about good presentation. [fu]

AJG

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 10-31-2003, 06:33 AM:

I never understood the point of getting THX certification and then not advertising it. Showcase Cincinnati had a THX certified room and you would never know it unless you had checked the THX website. (I'm assuming here that the THX website was correct in the early '90's)

There is an all THX 8-Plex here run by an independent, and they promote THX all the time, as they are trying to compete with the suburban theatres (this is downtown next to the hockey arena...you know...the mighty Columbus BlueJackets...and we don't know what a bluejacket is either).

Nice theatre...they show THX and Dolby Digital sound promos before every movie. Very challenging location, though.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-31-2003, 07:34 AM:

Just in case no one has mentioned it...THX is NOT out of business. It still exists as before for cinema though it has very few people on staff for the Cinema aspects.

I just did a recertification of the NCTA theater in Washington DC...still up to standards. In fact, I would use it as an example of THX working really well. Over the years I had noted that the HVAC system was getting progressively louder. Last year, it was on the threshold of NC-30 and I informed them that if this keeps up, they will fail in 2003. This year, it was fixed and they are down to something like NC-23 with the A/C ON! Without THX...something like that would never be caught since, after all, the HVAC still worked.

Another thing I've noted on doing regular THX recerts is that H.F. diaphragms fatigue. If you did a plot over say 10-years, you will find that the H.F. response will continue to fall off over time.

Another nifty thing THX seems to be doing on initial certifications or initial evaluations is to measure the surround response uniformity over various frequencies. I saw a recent 3-D plot that showed one's prominant person's idea of a good surround system does not have a uniform coverage throughout the theatre.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-31-2003, 08:16 AM:

"Another thing I've noted on doing regular THX recerts is that H.F. diaphragms fatigue. If you did a plot over say 10-years, you will find that the H.F. response will continue to fall off over time."
_________________________________________________________________

Steve,
I also noticed this, usually starts after about 2 years of the HF driver going into operation. What do you think causes this phenomonon?. Loosening up of the diaphrams surround edge, normal fall of of magnetization of the magnet structure, or both? It never bothered me much as a little hf tweek always puts it back to normal.

MArk @ CLACO

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 10-31-2003, 05:49 PM:

I've said it before, and I'll be happy to say it again:
THX is protection money. Mario Puzo's Mafia is kindergarden stuff in compare.

p.

Posted by John Scott (Member # 520) on 10-31-2003, 10:12 PM:

At the theatre I work at, we used to have 4 THX certified screens, although all 16 screens in the complex were built to the THX standard. At the last renewal it was decided to drop the certification.

We probably advertised the standard about 50% of the time. When we didn't, the main reason was due to the fact that we were concerned as to auditorium placement, and didn't want to be locked into the screen due to advertising requirements if something else needed the larger auditorium.

That said, we haven't seen any backlash at all since dropping the certification. The couple guests who asked about it after no longer seeing the THX trailers seemed to understand and accept that nothing is different with the auditorium from before, but that we just decided not to pay for the recertification.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-31-2003, 10:22 PM:

I would say the HF reponse is purely mechanical fatigue. To see it more dramatically...go to a 5-screen channel theatre and note how LC and RC responses are compared to Left and Right...LC and RC are almost always better in the HF since they are used less. Also, replacement of the diaphragm always fixes the problem. As such, I wouldn't factor the magnet into it...only the ALNICO magnets tended to loose the magnatism and then normally only when mishandeled, not just from sitting there.

Steve

Posted by Edward Jurich (Member # 1787) on 10-31-2003, 11:27 PM:

I don't think the public in general, except for a few audio types, even know what THX is and would go to a particular theater just to see a movie in THX. Digital is the buzz word everyone knows now.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-01-2003, 01:41 AM:

The difficulty with THX is very few average theater customers have a proper understanding of the concept. Most believe it is a sound recording format like Dolby Digital or DTS. Lucasfilm didn't do much to correct that misunderstanding either, especially since they got a weird kind of name brand benefit out of it. I mean, think about it, if everyone really understood the root of THX simply being a presentation standards program they might not be quite as impressed by it.

To give an example of how THX hype is misunderstood, the Carmike 8 in Lawton was built with two THX screens. Carmike dropped the certification on screen #5 a couple years ago but kept #4 certified. There are times where the theater will get 2 prints of a big film and put both prints on #4 and #5. There will be times where a customer missed the showtime on #4, but wants to see the film in a THX house. It is difficult for the box person to make them to realize house #5 is just as good a room without having the manager take the customer up into the booth to see the equipment racks. The only difference is you'll see a THX trailer in #4.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-01-2003, 12:26 PM:

I wonder who the promenent persons surround array they did the model of [evil]

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 11-01-2003, 04:08 PM:

quote:
It is difficult for the box person to make them to realize house #5 is just as good a room without having the manager take the customer up into the booth to see the equipment racks. The only difference is you'll see a THX trailer in #4

Not necessarily. As described above, if the tweeters are dying and the HVAC system is noisier than it once was, then house #5 may no longer be as good a room as #4 providing that #4 was properly recertified. Also, if a house is decertified, do they still get to use the THX crossovers?

But I agree that THX did a lousy job marketing the concept, for the numerous reasons I've already expressed. However, most patrons don't know much of anything regarding technical specifics -- they really don't know what Dolby, SDDS and DTS is and they usually don't even really know what anamorphic is or the true differences between 35mm and 70mm. They don't even know what aspect ratio really means. This is why they complain when they get black bars on their sets at home. However, that's not to say that they don't recognize in general terms, a better presentation.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-01-2003, 04:28 PM:

quote:
if a house is decertified, do they still get to use the THX crossovers?

Question: Does that matter anymore? I've been told that several companies make better crossovers now, though that may not have been the case in the early THX days.

?????

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 11-01-2003, 05:36 PM:

According to THX, it is certified, that theatres with the THX logo get custumers from "far away", because everyone, just a bit interested in "films done right" will be willing to go so and so many more miles to get to the real thing.
And the two twelve-year old kids, standing there in front of the cinema with the expensive logo in neon commets: "I've got that on my pc, too"
THX sure is around, and many THX theatres are great, but can anybody say without lying, that a non-THX theatre can't be just as good/better even, if made by the right people...?

P.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 11-01-2003, 06:33 PM:

Of course not, but that's not the point. The point is to let one know in advance which theaters are better than most by meeting certain standards and that's what THX intended to do. If someone else had set up a ratings system, that would have been fine as well. SMPTE tried to rate theaters some years back, but IMHO, the program didn't go far enough and it eventually disappeared.

And for the most part, THX theaters were generally better than non-THX theaters, although there are many exceptions.

In NYC for example, I've always enjoyed seeing films at the Ziegfeld, even though it was never THX certified.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-01-2003, 08:15 PM:

The analogue crossover you buy the frame (monitor included) and lease the cards when the decert occurs you return the card CE makes plugin replacements

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-02-2003, 12:51 AM:

THX NEVER had the "best" crossover or one that couldn't be replaced with as-good or better performance. They had a good crossover that was customized to work with the JBL 4675.

I'm curious as to a decertified theatre with the newer THX D1138. It is not leased. Personally, I'd use a RANE RPM-26Z (as many as necessary based on channels and speakers) over it nowadays with a good stand-alone booth monitor. The RANE will also accept AES3 inputs for those with digital outputs on their processors.

Steve

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-02-2003, 05:52 PM:

quote:
Also, if a house is decertified, do they still get to use the THX crossovers?

Carmike purchased many of theirs. I think the crossovers in this theater are an older variety that was standard through the early to late 1990's (doesn't THX use something different now?). The tech guy Carmike uses for the theater here (and others in this region) retunes all the houses on his quarterly visits whether they are THX or not. The theater is almost 9 years old, but is well maintained. A lot of speaker drivers have been replaced and the HVAC system had a good amount of work done on it.

With its competition down the street going 2nd run, Carmike may do a stadium seating conversion and add some screens sometime in the near future. But I strongly fear that in doing so Carmike will drop the THX certification from screen #4 and not do THX on any new houses. The stadium seating conversion could change a lot of acoustical properties that could drop it below the THX spec. Ultimately that is the issue killing THX in the professional cinema business. THX cannot seem to get movie theater circuits to include it within new stadium seated / digital sounded theaters. It is pretty rare to find a stadium seated theater that is THX certified and actually hits the specification.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 11-03-2003, 03:03 PM:

quote:
To give an example of how THX hype is misunderstood, the Carmike 8 in Lawton was built with two THX screens. Carmike dropped the certification on screen #5 a couple years ago but kept #4 certified. There are times where the theater will get 2 prints of a big film and put both prints on #4 and #5. There will be times where a customer missed the showtime on #4, but wants to see the film in a THX house. It is difficult for the box person to make them to realize house #5 is just as good a room without having the manager take the customer up into the booth to see the equipment racks. The only difference is you'll see a THX trailer in #4.

Doesn't this reinforce the argument that the THX marketing was working? The customer was demanding to see the film in a THX theater. Without that designation, how is he supposed to know that the other theater is "just as good"?

Since I began The BigScreen Cinema Guide almost 9 years ago, I have made an effort to accentuate those elements which should provide a better experience. We even have descriptions of THX, digital sound, and stadium seating, to help educate people on what these designations mean.

Take a look at these:

Star Cinema - Fitchburg Schedule Page
Scary Movie Schedule for Theaters Near Madison, WI

One of the most frustrating things is that we have trouble getting theaters to provide us with the necessary information to make this a value to our readers. You can see it in the above example; when there is a THX designator, there is no digital sound indicator.

Even the THX houses that we list don't often mark their presentations as THX so that people know which presentations are which. When people ask, I tell them that they have to call the theater since I have no way of knowing. So now, the theater must field a phone call instead of supplying the information up-front. I also tell people to attend the shows that are marked properly in the first place.

Our efforts to work with theaters to improve this information have been largely in vain. After all, we're trying to help them display information their customers want.

I don't buy the "customers don't know the difference between THX and DTS" argument. To me, that demonstrates a lack of respect for the customer and a blown opportunity to educate those who don't understand on what makes for a better presentation.

If theaters don't take the time to help their customers figure out how to appreciate good product, what's going to stop them from going to a competitor or staying home and waiting for the DVD?

Posted by Daniel Wright (Member # 1983) on 11-03-2003, 05:25 PM:

How many of the customers actully know what THX is? I mean in the sense of sound deadening and setup. I agree with the previous posters, that useing it for home video transfers and cheap stereo equipment has dropped it's value as a name drastically.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-03-2003, 05:27 PM:

Scott,
You're right. Its extremely confusing and quite rediclous and knowing the owners of Star Cinemas I'm pretty surprised at this lax approach. They were never lax when I did work for them in past years........

So I went to their web site....apparently new, however definately very UNIMPROVED! They used to list data for the type of sound system, screen size, etc. installed in each autitorium for each site....thats gone. The movie listing descriptions are also so fuzzy its hard to tell what site you'd want to see a film at. And, oddly, in Star's case they have a conglomeration of theatres around the Baraboo area with many screens to choose from so better advertising and returning the screen by screen description would be to everyones advantage. In fact on their own web site they don't state which digital format they are playing any given film in...... Did they take out all the digital systems, and the THX screens I installed for them? Who knows....no one for sure.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 11-04-2003, 02:32 AM:

Scott said

quote:
I don't buy the "customers don't know the difference between THX and DTS" argument. To me, that demonstrates a lack of respect for the customer and a blown opportunity to educate those who don't understand on what makes for a better presentation.

If theaters don't take the time to help their customers figure out how to appreciate good product, what's going to stop them from going to a competitor or staying home and waiting for the DVD?

Amen brother! Managers need to stop thinking of customers as mindless cattle who couldn't tell the difference between mono and stereo. We should respect them as humans, understand that they do care about presentation, and make an effort to be showmans. Give them the benefit of the doubt and do whatever it takes to keep a great presentation. This whole discussion reminds me of why people dislike letterboxing on DVD: they just are not educated on the matter. It's nice to know most here on Film-Tech care about the matter. God knows that some of my managers do not.

AJG

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-04-2003, 01:10 PM:

Actually there are a lot of customers who indeed do not know the difference between THX and sound presentation formats like Dolby Digital or DTS. This is part of my complaint on how THX is treated in advertising.

Some of the blame goes to exhibitors, such as the marking of a show as being "presented in THX" but any digital sound notation is dropped. This is also a common problem with the various Surround EX formats too since a DTS-ES or Dolby SA-10 unit can be applied to any of three theatrical digital sound formats. The exhibitors just figure one logo is enough. That creates a kind of rock-paper-scissors game where one item like THX is seen as being better than another aspect of the show like DTS. Very little is done to say THX and digital surround is a better combination than either system alone.

THX does make some flyers available where they describe a digital soundtrack as being like a CD and the THX sound system as being a really great stereo system on which to play the CD. That's a good point. However, I've seen very few people pick up one of those flyers and go to the trouble of reading it. THX has to find some way to better illustrate its role in movie theater presentation and probably have to do that on screen during a THX trailer, or even perhaps on THX trailers used on so many DVDs.

quote:
Doesn't this reinforce the argument that the THX marketing was working? The customer was demanding to see the film in a THX theater. Without that designation, how is he supposed to know that the other theater is "just as good"?

The problem is the customer I mentioned did not have a clear understanding of THX. He really only knows the logo. The box office staff tried telling him for his own benefit that house #5 was the same in every detail as house #4 so he wouldn't have to wait an hour and a half for the next show. If the customer had said something like "well I want to be able to see that THX logo thing before the show," then his insistence on #4 would have made more sense.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 11-05-2003, 12:47 PM:

It's too bad that THX and Dolby/DTS/Sony can't work together to come up with combo trailers that speak to that very issue.

Something like "Wings" where the text explained what was going on, and the deep note was starting to build.

The version of Cimarron that I have starts out with the text "Dolby Digital Sound in a THX Theater" and then goes to the conductor w/ the baton, and then the amazing light tunnel, the climax, and then the light tinkling at the end.

This would actually do the trick in Dolby Digital equipped theaters, even without extra explanatory text.

But alas, we run into the problem that we've talked about before. Many theaters don't seem to be willing to take the time to educate people on what can make a better experience.

It's been a very long time since I've seen a THX or a digital sound trailer in a theater. That's unfortunate, since it (the THX/digital sound trailer) would provide a nice beginning for the presentation as a segue from the ads and trailers.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 11-05-2003, 01:59 PM:

I thought running the THX trailer was a requirement for certified theatres?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-05-2003, 03:29 PM:

THX certified theaters are supposed to run the THX snipe before the show, but many do not. I suppose it comes down to having to build up a print with the THX snipe included and then taking the snipe out when you move the print to a different auditorium. Another issue is trailers wearing out and needing replacement. You only get so many free THX trailers per year/per auditorium.

I personally think any theater equipped for digital sound and/or certified by THX should play the trailers. Audiences do find them entertaining. And it adds a little more showmanship value.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-05-2003, 05:08 PM:

I wonder how often those audio snipes continue to be played in other houses after a show is demoted to a theatre that is not THX certified or is not equipped with a digital audio format.

It must happen. The question is really how frequently...

Posted by Daniel Fuentz (Member # 1684) on 11-05-2003, 08:53 PM:

In regards to stadium theatres and THX, the Signature Stadium 16 here in Fresno is certified on all their screens, and they do play the THX snipe as well as the appropriate sound format snipe before each feature. The only other THX theatre in town that I am aware of is screen #8 at the UA Towne Center 8 in Clovis. Last time I was there (In April) they did not run a THX snipe, and the only mention of THX in that auditorium was a tiny little logo in the mylar holder above the door. I do agree that they don't really do a good job of marketing what exactly THX is, and why that makes a difference.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-06-2003, 02:54 PM:

Speaking of THX, I'm wondering if any film-tech members have a copy in their possession of a THX-Certified Cinemas list?

Why not download or print the info from the THX Web site, you ask? Simple: because the specific information I am seeking is no longer incorporated into the lists available on the Web. What I am seeking is either a hard copy from the early-to-mid 1990s or a copy from that same timeframe that was printed from the Web.

I've requested a copy directly from THX, but they have been unable to provide me with anything from the desired timeframe. So, I'm hoping perhaps a theatre manager, projectionist or an enthusiast here on film-tech may have a list handy and would be willing to make a copy, or can direct me to someone who might. If anyone can help in any way please contact me.

Thanks.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-06-2003, 03:42 PM:

I have the published THX "Certified Theatre" listings from Summer 2000, March 1997, October 1996, September 1995, and January 1994, if that is any help. [Smile]

Ex-THX guys like Tom Lipiec, Ted Costas, Tim Shafbuch, Ross Herring, or even Tom Holman might have stuff too. I've got some early 1980's Inter-Society correspondence with George Lucas, but it doesn't list any theatres.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-06-2003, 05:40 PM:

What info do you need specifically?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-06-2003, 11:13 PM:

I don't mean to intentionally take the THX conversation off to a different area, but has anyone given the new "Finding Nemo" DVD a spin?

On the "foolscreen" disc (I checked this one out for bonus features) I accidentally started the movie when hitting the menu button to get out of one of the "turn your TV into an aquarium" thingies. The "Tex" THX trailer plays, but this time has some extra stuff in the mix for Surround EX. "Tex" saws away at something in the center surround. Is this different mix available for movie theaters or is this yet another exclusive to DVD (such as the "T2" THX snipe)?

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 11-07-2003, 04:16 PM:

Here is a Wayback archive of a list a friend of mine used to keep:

http://web.archive.org/web/19981205081507/www.cc.edu/~rhiggins/thx_list.html

Ah, the good old days of putting cool stuff on the Internet that didn't otherwise exist...

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-07-2003, 04:42 PM:

Scott,

Thanks for posting the link. However, the information I am seeking -- notations for 70mm-equipped screens -- are not present.

I am beginning to wonder if 70mm notations were ever present on any THX lists over the years. I could swear that I've seen them before, but then I may be mixing up memories of flipping through Dolby's lists (which did identify 70mm screens...until SR and SRD came around).

I've received a few private messages and emails since asking my question, and everyone's copies have had one thing in common: no references to 70mm. Is it my imagination that 70mm notations have ever been included on any of the THX-Certified Theatre lists?

Maybe Scott Norwood could chime in as references to THX's Web site appear in the 70mm-equipped Cinemas document he has edited over the past few years.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 03-22-2007, 08:15 PM:

It has been 1231 days since the last post.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 03-22-2007, 08:15 PM:

quote: John Pytlak
I have the published THX "Certified Theatre" listings from Summer 2000, March 1997, October 1996, September 1995, and January 1994, if that is any help.

quote: Gordon McLeod
What info do you need specifically?

I wish to verify if the GCC MENLO PARK in Edison, New Jersey was ever THX-certified and if it appeared on any official THX lists. If this venue was certified, the likely timeframe would have been the late '80s/early '90s right before its closing and demolition.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-23-2007, 12:59 PM:

Unfortunately, those THX listings are in my files at work, which I currently cannot access from home. Since my group moved to a new building in December, my work files are still in shipping boxes, so I can't ask a coworker to access them either.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 03-23-2007, 04:48 PM:

As of January 1996, the only THX certified theaters in New Jersey were:

GCC General Cinema Bridgewater | 1 | #2 | Bridgewater |NJ
Sony Freehold Metroplex | 2 | #4 & 5 | Freehold |NJ
GCC Essex Green Cinema | 1 | #1 | West Orange |NJ

That's the best information I have; I don't have anything for the late 80's/early 90's.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-25-2007, 08:06 PM:

The biggest problem I see with marketing THX these days is the sheer cost of just adding the THX logo to a chains newspaper ads. It can cost tens of thousands of $$ just to do that yearly aside from the THX re-cert sliding scale fees. It's just not worth it for even in the largest of chains. If the sound is high quality and "digital" which these days is the more important buzz word then people are going to come to a location no matter what sound playback system they have installed.

Mark

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-25-2007, 11:44 PM:

Why should it cost so much money for a movie theater chain to use the THX logo in its directory ads? Provided if the ad is big enough to use the logo in the first place (instead of just small letters), using the logo shouldn't be a problem at all. A lot of ad agencies put together those ads and use applications that can float in a vector based THX logo with no problem. Same goes for newspapers. They all can do it.

Now, if THX is charging theater chains a use fee to list that THX logo in the newspaper directory ads or movie stack ads then THX is shooting themselves in the balls big time. Doing such a thing would be an extremely stupid mistake and only encourage more theaters to drop THX entirely. I think the THX program is on the ropes as it is. The folks at THX need to be doing more to encourage theaters to use their system.

I think the real problem is the movie theater chains, newspapers and ad agencies making movie ads for newspapers just don't feel like fooling with the "THX," "DTS," "Digital Cinema" and lots of other techie listings they can't seem to get right half of the time anyway. They just want to go back to listing basic, generic movie ads showing only title, MPAA rating and show times. I also think this situation is one of the factors that has helped overall industry standards on presentation quality to drop noticeably. The movie theaters can't market all their tech stuff very well, due to newspaper difficulty. So why spend a bunch of money keeping the auditoriums and related equipment in tip top shape?

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 03-26-2007, 01:08 AM:

When it comes to digital sound, guess what? The last major 20-plex I worked used all three digital sound formats, and all were backed up by good ole analog. And do you know how many times analog saved our asses...for whatever reason? And we never recieved customer complaints about analog sound, and the vast majority of customers did not know the difference. The only time that we would get complaints about sound quality was if the digital sound track for whatever reason (usually SDDS) was bad, and the sound would constantly switch from digital to analog,which the audience would notice. Problem was solved by shutting off the digital and just running in analog, and all customers were happy.

As for THX...funny story. A THX certified tech once did an annual recert of a major 20-plex. According to all his fancy computerized sound equipment almost every auditorium was out of kilter. But in reality they sounded very good. Anyhow, the tech readjusted according to his computer readings. Immediately after his visit customer complaints about poor sound quality were en masse....The tech anded up flying back out and putting all the sound adjustments back to their pre-adjustment settings!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-26-2007, 09:26 AM:

I don't claim to have a pair of "golden ears," but it's usually very obvious to me when a movie is playing in analog versus digital. The difference is especially noticeable when the theater's sound system is equalized properly. The only times I have any trouble telling the difference is when the theater's sound system sounds like ass regardless of whether the audio is analog or digital.

As for THX and its re-EQ computerized stuff, I'll bet that incident described in more an exception rather than the rule.

In general, a properly EQ-ed THX certified auditorium is usually going to sound noticeably better than ones that aren't THX certified. And that has to do with the fact the vast majority of auditoriums that are not THX certified will lack many of the things featured in one that is THX certified. They won't have the same level of wall treatment. They will usually skimp on subwoofer drivers, go with lesser quality components and amplifiers and they won't have that baffle behind the screen either. You're also all but guaranteed to have a more noisy (and cheaper) heating/air system and duct work. It is very rare that any movie theater will put in all the kinds of items mandated by THX by choice without also participating in the THX program as well.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-26-2007, 10:05 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I think the real problem is the movie theater chains, newspapers and ad agencies making movie ads for newspapers just don't feel like fooling with the "THX," "DTS," "Digital Cinema" and lots of other techie listings they can't seem to get right half of the time anyway. They just want to go back to listing basic, generic movie ads showing only title, MPAA rating and show times.

In this area, Carmike is using all the appropriate logos (Dolby, THX, DLP) but they are squeezing it all into the same size ad they used before all that came along. To add to the confusion, they are not running the same schedule all week...some shows are "Fri-Sat only," some are "Fri-Sat-Sun only," and some matinee times are "Sat-Sun only." These times are marked by asterisks, which point to definitions at the bottom of the ad...and each of their three plexes has a different array of asterisks and their meanings. All of this information for their 24 screens in three locations, along with the logos, ratings, theatre phone numbers and addresses, and -- oh yeah -- the movie titles, are crammed into an ad that's about 1 column by 5 inches tall. I'll try to scan and post one when I get the chance.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-26-2007, 11:04 AM:

I think Carmike's newspaper ad in our local paper (The Lawton Constitution) is too small -certainly too small to display logos like those of THX and DLP with any decent legibility at all. Factors like "dot gain" from bleeding ink on newsprint make visual mud out of an ad made way too small. Carmike's Lawton ad is probably half the size it used to be a few years ago. Back in the late 1980's and early 1990's when Carmike was running the Video Triple and Showcase Twin their ads were quite a bit bigger and had things like poster and title art for individual movies. Not any more. I've seen other movie theater chains do the same thing, especially in smaller markets.

I'm not sure whether the average price for newspaper ad space has simply become a lot more expensive or if movie theater chains are just slashing advertising costs.

Either way, newspapers are becoming increasingly irrelevant when it comes to movie advertising. I check the Internet for show times almost exclusively now. In that area, I think a lot of web sites that list movie show times could improve in quite a few areas. In Carmike's case, they do pretty well on listing a lot of the tech-related stuff. It's just that I think their new design is pretty ugly compared to what they used to have (which featured better reproductions of the logos, larger type, etc.).

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-26-2007, 12:01 PM:

The thing about newspaper ads becoming less relevant is true, though I don't think the market is at the "tipping point" yet where they can abandon newspapers completely.

Also maybe noteworthy (or not), Regal is running TV ads for their new 15 screen here, as well as ads on the side of city busses. The TV ad looks locally produced, shot at the new theatre, probably on the cheap. I see it running very often and on a lot of different TV shows.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 03-26-2007, 12:34 PM:

That's hilarious- "Why are you watching this commercial at home? Come to our theater and see commercials on our BIG (or at least medium-sized) screens!" Almost as funny as advertising cable TV shows in theaters.

Somewhere on tape I've got an ad for a nearby discount theater that's now closed, that ran as a local insert spot on a cable channel (my idiot roommate was subscribing, not me!) If I ever find it I'll put it online.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-26-2007, 01:10 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I think Carmike's newspaper ad in our local paper (The Lawton Constitution) is too small -certainly too small to display logos like those of THX and DLP with any decent legibility at all.

Bobby, I suggest that you call the local paper and the largest paper in your state adn get advertising rates per line. I think you will be shocked. The Carmike ad is small because it costs a fortune every time its in there.

Mark

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 03-26-2007, 02:19 PM:

That's right. Remember the days of 1/4 page (and larger) display ads? That was routine for theatres on Fridays and Saturdays. During the week, they still ran some kind of display ad cut from the pressbooks.

With today's crowd and multi's, directory ads have proven to be as effective.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-26-2007, 03:08 PM:

I think newspaper ads are still relevant. Whenever my wife and I travel, we almost always go to at least one movie, and there's no easier way to find out what's playing where. I suppose for local residents it's easier to go online, but not everyone goes to the internet for everything (yet).

I think what's really unnecessary are those huge full-page ads for movies that run in the big cities. I think the TV ads and trailers in theatres have much more effect that giant newspaper ads.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-26-2007, 03:57 PM:

That probably true. However, one of my favorite things about reading the New York Times was its huge full page or even 2 full page ads for new movies. I saved quite a few of them (featuring 70mm listings) from the late 1980's and early 1990's.

I wish they could come up with an Internet-based equivalent, perhaps something in PDF format to retain vector-based artwork and font formatting.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 03-27-2007, 08:18 AM:

So does anyone know what THX is short for? Thomas Holman eXperience, Thomas Holmans eXperiment, Thomas Holmans Xover, or just a tribute to THX 1138? or all of the above?

[ 03-27-2007, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Cameron Glendinning ]

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 03-27-2007, 10:25 AM:

Tomlinson not Thomas.

THX

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 03-27-2007, 05:37 PM:

I practically have to beg some theaters to provide me with complete information regarding THX, digital sound, and stadium seating. They are so accustomed to being constrained for space by newspapers that they aren't able to come back from the ledge.

Some will show THX but not digital sound, even when both apply. Some will just assume that people know they have digital sound. The only thing most of them get right most of the time is stadium seating.

Thankfully, there are exceptions. I have some theaters that go the extra mile to take full advantage of the flags that we offer in our showtimes. We don't have many THX-cerfitied theaters any more, so that logo doesn't show up often, but I know my readers like to see the other indicators there in as complete a fashion as possible.
Example

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 03-28-2007, 12:40 AM:

Regarding the Wikipedia link Jeffry posted, did anyone catch the reference to the Eileen Norris Theatre at USC being cited as the first THX theatre? Given George Lucas and Tomlinson Holman's long-standing ties with USC, I'm not surprised by the Norris' THX status. But the first such theatre???

quote:
The first theater THX was used in was at the University of Southern California's Eileen Norris Cinema Theatre as a part of USC's acclaimed film school. The Norris Theatre's THX system is currently second-best in California to that of the Grauman's Chinese Theatre.[citation needed]

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-28-2007, 02:14 AM:

From the wiki article:

quote:
and other technical requirements; architectural requirements include a floating floor, baffled and acoustically treated walls, no parallel walls (to reduce standing waves), a perforated screen (to allow center channel continuity), and NC30 rating for background noise.

Can someone confirm this? We have two auditoriums which were built to THX standards (both certified at one time, only one now) and neither one has a floating floor. I'm also pretty sure both have 'parallel walls', though I could double check with a tape measure.

Incidentally the first and second years of their certification an actual THX tech flew out from California to do the cert/recert, so you think he would have noticed.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 03-28-2007, 05:15 AM:

The one THX theatre that I worked in did not have a floating floor either, the building was seperate from the rest of the complex however being added later. As for parallel walls, behind the drapes were actually quite suprising, In one section there was a 12 foot deep void, where the bag snatchers would hide!

Thanks for the link Jeffry, I got lost in there for a few hours last night and for the correct spelling of Tomlinson. I will not use Google as a spell cheaker anymore [Eek!]

[ 03-28-2007, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Cameron Glendinning ]

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-28-2007, 07:40 AM:

Well, personally I can confirm many, many auditoriums were approved by THX did not have floating floors and did have parallel walls. I think those would be just too expensive. However, if done correctly you can still get excellent 'isolation' between auditoriums.

Be a little careful about the 'NC30' rating. The standard that I read did not specify frequencies below (if I remember) 250Hz, or above 16kHz, which are certainly audible. I'm guessing THX took that standard and added the necessary range, but it wasn't part of the orginal standard.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-28-2007, 09:02 AM:

Note, there are cinema standards and screening room standards for THX. The screening room standards are more strict with such things as NC25 instead of the cinema standard of NC30.

I've too seen parallel walls and non-floating floors in THX rooms and we are an official recertificaiton company. Then again, I've seen floating floors and non-parallel walls.

Both NC and STC ratings (ASTM) really relate to work spaces more than theatres...however they are the only recognized standars we have. Unfortunately, as John pointed out, they do not completely define the frequencies we need to deal with in movie theatres. STC is particularly deficient since it stops at something like 125Hz when in theatres we really need to be concerned down to 20Hz. Thus, theatre demising wall systems (not just the wall but everything that separates one theatre from another including the wall behind the screen and the booth wall) need to be in the STC-75 class and above.

I've measured STC-75 walls that once installed in a theatre were reduced to FSTC-62 since the slab was continuous between theatres, the wall behind the screen was continuous and the booth wall was continuous. All these flanking paths just propagated the noise right on over.

Steve