Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Apple Cinema Display monitors on a PC

This is topic Apple Cinema Display monitors on a PC in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-08-2007, 08:58 PM:

I've got a PC as well as a G5. I currently am running 3 screens off of the PC via a Matrox P750 video card. I don't know what the G5 has in it.

I have two of these 3 monitors hooked through a dual head KVM switch. The third monitor goes directly to the PC's third video output.

I am considering switching over to two of the Apple Cinema Display monitors.

I know the monitors should work fine with the G5...but what about the PC? Mr. Redifer thinks the info on the Apple link above is probably outdated or simply untested with other types of cards. Does anyone have any specific experience?

Also any recommendations for a dual head DVI KVM?

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-08-2007, 11:27 PM:

If you're going with the 30-inch model you'll have to get video cards and a KVM switch that support dual-link dvi (note that dual-dvi is NOT dual-link dvi).

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 05-08-2007, 11:51 PM:

I read that there's a 50" ACD coming out soon... that will be pretty cool.

Posted by Joel N. Weber II (Member # 3530) on 05-09-2007, 12:00 AM:

Most DVI monitors, up to 24", use a differential pair for red, a differential pair for green, and a differential pair for blue.

Dual data link, used by the 30" LCDs, adds three extra pairs of wires to increase the available bandwidth over the DVI cable without having to keep increasing the bandwidth over each pair.

Unless your video card explicitly says it does dual data link, it probably doesn't. Unless it explicitly says it does dual data link on both ports, it may only do so on one; when dual data link cards first came out, one brand was shipping cards that only did dual data link on one port, the other did dual data link on both. You might want to double check exactly what your G5 has.

The specs on the Matrox card explicitly list `` Digital, 1-2 monitors: 1920 x 1200'' as the max resolution, which looks to me like it's incompatible with the 30" LCD monitors. (The 30" LCD monitors generally do not have analog inputs at all.)

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-09-2007, 12:06 AM:

But if he's going for one of the smaller cinema displays he won't need dual-link.

The 20" and 23" don't.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-09-2007, 06:36 AM:

Yes, I am going for the 30", and yes I am aware the P750 card will have to be tossed.

Does anyone have any specific recommendations for a KVM or video card?

Thanks for the info on the dual-data!

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-09-2007, 08:26 AM:

Most of the cards that have two dual-link DVI connectors seem to be for PCI Express bus, but I suppose that most people wanting to use two monitors that need it are likely to have a newish pc, that probably has it.

Those are nice monitors, but a bit beyond my price range at the moment, though they have come down by about 25% since they were introduced. I've got one of the older 22 inch cinema displays which use a ADC connector, basically DVI+power+USB over one cable, so I have to use an adapter to connect it to a pc. The new ones are standard DVI, and so can connect directly to a pc but I think I remember that there's still a single cable going to the monitor that breaks out into separate power USB and DVI connectors at the other end, so the cable is permanently attached to the monitor. However, if you need to extend this, any additional DVI cable has to be dual-link capable as well. There are three rows of pins; if each row has two sets of three pins with a gap between then it's single-link. If each row has two extra pins, making a total of eight pins in each row, then it should be dual link, but I have seen cables with all the pins which are not. There's a large flat blade at one end, if there are four small pins grouped around this then it's DVI-I, which carries analogue signals as well; if those extra pins are not there then it's DVI-D, which only carries the digital signals.

There is something that looks like DVI, but longer, with ten pins in each row; this is M1, EVC or P+D, which also carries USB and Firewire connections. They are mainly used as inputs to projectors. Adapters to standard DVI are available.

The Apple ADC also has the extra pins in each row like M1, but the outer shell of the connector has rounded ends, and it uses clips rather than screws to hold it in.

Then there's DFP, now obsolete, but still found on some older equipment, which uses the same signals as single-link DVD-D, but on a different connector.

Open LVI is totally different, and is used by some older Silicon Graohics monitors. It needs a 'Multilink adapter' to convert standard DVI or VGA signals for use with it.

Apple are notorious for the number of different monitor connections that they've used over the years; I have an old shoe box at home completely full of various adapters.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-09-2007, 01:26 PM:

Some reviews on the Apple 30" Studio Cinema Display monitor complained about a general lack of adjustment capability when hooked to a Windows-based PC. I don't know if Apple has done anything to correct that issue, but it was there when they first started selling their monitors with standard PC-compatible DVI connectors.

As much as a 30" widescreen computer monitor costs, I would definitely read up about the new Samsung and Hewlett Packard 30" monitors as well as the one Dell has been selling. The HP unit has received some high marks, although it has a price tag about as expensive as the Apple 30" monitor.

Dell also has a new 27" monitor with faster response time and deeper color gamut range, but it has a 1920 X 1200 native resolution instead of 2560 X 1600.

Most modern high-ish end video cards featuring two dual-DVI outputs ought to work well for connecting two 30" monitors. I'm not sure what the memory requirements are for doing that (I'm thinking 256MB on the card may not be enough).

A motherboard with two PCI-X 16-lane slots (mainly for SLI) would allow you the capability using two dual-head graphics boards. You would have four dual-DVI outputs -naturally after spending some serious cash.

Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 05-09-2007, 07:26 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Does anyone have any specific recommendations for a KVM or video card?

If you have about $450 to burn, the 2x1 DVi DL Switcher from Gefen Inc. may be just the ticket. I have one at work to share a 30" Cinema Display and keyboard between a PowerMac G5 and a Dell Dimension PC and, other than the R/C going bad, the switcher works well. I equipped the Dimension with an ATI Radeon X1600 Pro graphics card to handle the big screen.

FWIW, I tried the 30-incher with standard DVI video cards on the PC and, while it worked for a short while at a lower resolution, the image deteriorated into a snowy, split-screened mess. No joke, that dual-link card is necessary!

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-09-2007, 08:22 PM:

It is worth noting that you don't need to set your PC's refresh rate above 60Hz with an LCD monitor like the ACD. The Mac won't let you change the refresh rate because it knows when it is hooked up to an ACD, but a PC might not. Raising the refresh rate will do nothing except make Windows less awesome.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 05-09-2007, 08:43 PM:

Is that even possible?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-27-2007, 01:59 PM:

So here's a new question. I am hearing from some people that Dell's 30" equivalent is a superior product, and by superior I am referring to still image "reference" quality. (Not interested in gaming.) Any input?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-27-2007, 03:41 PM:

I've seen some of those reviews. Tom's Hardware rated the Dell 30" monitor a better product than Apple's offering. However, they rated the new HP 30" monitor to be better than Dell's. Really, the best LCD monitor Dell makes right now is that new 27" unit.

Posted by Joel N. Weber II (Member # 3530) on 05-27-2007, 10:08 PM:

But the 24" and 27" displays are both 1920x1200 pixels. I find the pixels plenty big on the 24" monitor, and don't see why I'd want to pay more money for a bigger monitor with the same number of pixels.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-28-2007, 12:06 AM:

The 27" monitor has a signal response rate of only 6 milliseconds, compared to the 12 ms rating for Dell's 30" model. The 24" monitor is claimed to also have a 6 ms rating, but product reviews have stated otherwise. The color display quality of the 27" monitor is quite a bit better than Dell's 24" and 30" models, making it more suitable for viewing video content like DVDs and other material.

Posted by Kyle McEachern (Member # 2250) on 05-28-2007, 02:06 AM:

However the specific question posed by Brad refers solely to still imagery, so response time isn't necessarily a decision-making factor, and the discussion is related specifically to 30" monitors, both of which makes the discussion on superiority of their 27" panel as it relates to response time and resolution not relevant.

Posted by Joel N. Weber II (Member # 3530) on 05-28-2007, 12:27 PM:

How is 12ms response time not good enough for watching a DVD? At 60 fps, isn't the frame on the screen for about 17ms, and at 24fps, isn't the frame on the screen for about 42 ms?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-28-2007, 01:25 PM:

A monitor's response time as a stat on its own does little to dictate how well video content will look -other than the fact a much faster monitor won't be so likely to have all the video smearing problems a cheap LCD will have.

Often a monitor that has superior internal hardware to deliver much faster response times will also have a lot of other features to improve color quality. Reviews have generally been pretty good for Dell's 24" and 30" monitors, but I have seen web sites like Tom's Hardware complain about how they worked in showing video. The Dell 27" monitor is meant to overcome some of those complaints. The long term trend is for computer monitors and television sets to merge together. That's proving to be really tricky.

There's still very few LCD monitors I would trust for doing any really critical work with color. Most are uneven when it comes to treating very subtle shades of color like very light earth tones or very dark shadow detail. They show color images being lighter in tone than their actual nature. For work with graphics, video and other multimedia content it's very important to have a monitor that you can properly calibrate. Unfortunately the ones that yield the best performance and have the most customization typically cost quite a bit of money. Lacie is fixing to release a new 25.5" widescreen LCD catering to graphics and photography pros and it carries a $2100 price tag.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-28-2007, 02:17 PM:

What kind of resolution is this Lacie unit going to have? And what makes it so superior for photography work over the Dell/Apple? That's what I want it for. I won't be watching video or playing games.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-29-2007, 10:24 AM:

The LaCie 526 LCD Monitor has 1920 X 1200 resolution. The monitor has a number of enhancements to increase its color gamut range over what a typical LCD monitor will display. It has a great deal of calibration capability in hardware (12-bit gamma correction, 16-bit calculation precision, uniformity correction, backlight stabilizer) and it also includes Blue Eye Pro software for additional adjustment capability and the ability to output ICC profiles. For about $400 over the $2000 list price you can get a Blue Eye Pro colorimeter.

Product Link

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-29-2007, 11:24 PM:

I ordered the Dells. 1920x1200 isn't enough for what I need to do. Thanks for the help guys.