Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Cop in Noble, OK tries to shoot snake, kills 5 year old boy instead

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-07-2007, 02:05 PM:

This is the story, as reported by the Associated Press:

quote: Associated Press
Noble, Okla. (AP) _ Officials in Noble say a 5-year-old boy was shot and killed last week by an apparent stray bullet fired by a police officer attempting to kill a snake. Jack Tracy says he was fishing with his 5-year-old grandson Austin Haley Friday evening when he saw the first shot hit the water near where they were standing. As he pulled his grandson to his side, he says a second shot hit the boy in the head.

Noble city manager bob wade says police received a complaint last night from residents in a subdivision about a snake. When officers responded, they decided to shoot the snake. A few minutes later, Wade says there was a commotion in a wooded area behind them where the boy apparently was hit by the stray bullet.

Austin was transported to an Oklahoma City hospital, where he was pronounced dead. Wade refused to identify the officer suspected of firing the shots but says the officer has been placed on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation.

This tragedy is so stupid and senseless I find it anger inspiring. It's one of the worst examples of idiocy I've heard about in quite a long time.

Basically there's a number of points of stupidity at work in this situation.

#1: I think anyone who has a big problem with snakes has no business at all living out in rural areas where snakes are common. You either co-exist with them (and do what you can to avoid them) or live in the freaking city.

#2: Usually when someone wants a snake killed, they usually kill the snake on their own -typically using items like shovels, yard tools, etc. They don't call the freaking cops about it.

#3: It is arguably pretty stupid for cops to actually answer a call about a snake, when the snake is found in or next to a wooded area near water -their natural habitat. If some old lady found a rattlesnake or cottonmouth in her house, then perhaps a call to the police might be justified. I would even say it's alright to get animal control involved when some former pet but now abandoned python is found in your back yard eating your dog. If you see a snake in the woods -that's called a National Geographic Moment. You might feel like taking a picture or just keep walking. What you don't do is whine to the police about it! If you built a new house next to the woods the snakes and other critters come with the deal.

#4: Then we have the most stupid issue of all: cops using guns to kill snakes. What in the world possessed them to come up with that solution? Probably macho idiocy and the need to have fun shooting guns. There's a great place for shooting: it's called a "firing range." You never fire a gun in a residential area unless some bad guy is shooting at you and you have no choice but to return fire. You don't sling lead at snakes! Heck, I wouldn't even try that idiotic stunt out in the wilderness. Bullets can ricochet quite easily. If you're trying to shoot a snake (and likely at somewhat close range), it wouldn't take much for a bullet to glance off a rock or hard surface and come right back at you.

Thanks to all those bad decisions a 5 year old boy is now dead. That boy's family is having to deal with tragedy and torment a whole lot worse than finding a 1000 snakes under your house.

The moral of the story is leave snakes alone.

Snakes naturally want to avoid people. Rattlesnakes are even polite enough to alert us to their presence before they strike. Most people bitten by snakes are doing something stupid and risky around the snakes to make it happen. And even then, most rattlesnake bites are "dry bites" where very little or no venom is injected. Fewer than 6 people in the United States die from snake bites every year. A lot more are killed by domestic house pets (like large dogs).

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 08-07-2007, 02:13 PM:

Agree with Bobby on all points here. This is a senseless and stupid trajedy.

If a non-venemous snake is INSIDE your house, get it outside. Usually you can direct it to the door with a broom. If it's venmous then call animal control.

If a snake is OUTSIDE your house, stay away from it. It will normally slither away from you. Snakes live outside. They slither around. That is what they do.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-07-2007, 02:49 PM:

Bobby,

It sounds to me like you need the concelaed weapon card just to protect yourself from the police over there. A tragedy indeed! A genuine situation that should have been left to animal control instead!

I see ALOT of rattlesnakes and walked within inches past one out near Fallon, NV a couple of years ago. Alot of the year around here all snakes hibernate and you generally don't see any of them at all till the end of April or early June. If you are exposing yourself to places where they live/hang out then appropriate foot protection is very definately needed no matter how hot it is outside.

Never ever handle a rattler or tease one... even a small one. The small ones are every bit as deadly as the larger ones. Bobby is correct about dry bites... I think I read that 7 out of 10 rattler bites is a dry strike where the snake is just trying to ward you off. I love watching them slither around... they are truely amazing creatures [thumbsup]

. You can tell the age of a rattler by how long the rattle is... or just count the rings if you can get close enough! They tend to keep their distance or flee you if possible.

Mark

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 08-07-2007, 05:08 PM:

That truly is a tragedy. Poor kid didn't even have a chance at life.

I live where I see all sorts of wildlife walking down my street and hillside... Deer, coyotes, squirrels, skunks, rats, an occasional bob cat, lizards, scorpions, tarantulas, and snakes, etc.

A couple of weeks ago, while getting my mail, I saw a 35-foot rattle snake crossing my driveway. Ok OK OK! So it was really only about 4-5 feet, but it sure still looked bigger! I kept my distance! HA! [beer]

I agree with the others, it's part of where ya live. If ya don't like it...MOVE!

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-07-2007, 06:10 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
The moral of the story is leave snakes alone.

Snakes naturally want to avoid people. Rattlesnakes are even polite enough to alert us to their presence before they strike. Most people bitten by snakes are doing something stupid and risky around the snakes to make it happen.

While the boy getting killed is indeed tragic and stupid, most of Bobby's rant about snakes is wrongheaded.

1. Rattlesnakes don't always rattle before they strike. If you are walking by one and it is startled, it might strike without rattling.

2. "If you don't like snakes, don't live where they are?" Give me a break. There are rattlesnakes all over Montana but I doubt you'd find more than 1% of the people here who actually like the critters.

3. Don't call the cops to kill a snake? Sorry, but some people are just not crazy/insane/brave enough to kill a snake. Rattlers can get coiled up behind stuff and under rocks and in dark corners, and they can move fast. A coiled rattler can strike up to twice it's length from where it's sitting. I would much rather have a cop come around and dispatch a snake than try to hack one with a shovel myself.

4. Live in a freakin' city? Doesn't always work, either. Rattlesnakes are regularly killed within Billings, which has over 125,000 people. A friend of mine found a rattler curled up and sleeping next to the front door of his shop when he went to work last week. Right in the middle of town, pavement for miles on all sides.

The main rule to remember with rattlesnakes in the wild is, if you hear one, turn around and calmly walk back the way you came. Don't keep running where you were headed, because there might be another snake nearby. Give the original rattle a wide berth and go on your way.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-07-2007, 09:52 PM:

Wrong headed about snakes? No, I don't think so.

Aside from that, that issue is irrelevant to the stupidity of police officers firing pistols in a residential neighborhood when no one's life was really in any danger at all. They got a boy killed as a result of just wanting to get off on killing something. Simple as that.

quote: Mike Blakesley
1. Rattlesnakes don't always rattle before they strike. If you are walking by one and it is startled, it might strike without rattling.

That's true. However, there are very few places where you are going to encounter a rattlesnake that happens to be in a residential area.

We have several different species of rattlesnakes in the county where I live. I have seen plenty out in the Wichita Mountains. Western Diamondback, Mississauga, Pygmy, Tiber and even some Eastern Diamondbacks. We also have lots of Copperheads in the area. Just south of Lawton, like around Waurika Lake, lie the northern fringes of Cottonmouth territory. But in all the years I have lived in this area, I have never seen a rattlesnake in Lawton. It's rare to find them in more rural tourist spots like Medicine Park. You usually have to go well into the Wichitas to find any venomous snakes.

So far, none of the news reports here in Oklahoma or on the national wires have stated just what kind of snake the people in that new subdivision where complaining about. Oklahoma is home to many different kinds of snakes. Most of them are completely harmless. Given the location of Noble, OK, I would have to say odds are very strong the snake of mention was just some harmless black Natrix snake, often stupidly confused to be a Cottonmouth. Anything black is automatically a Cottonmouth in the eyes of most people.

Snakes are actually beneficial to the environment.

Although I live in Oklahoma, I am ashamed of the perverted tradition of "Rattlesnake Roundups" that take place every year here. If the yahoos organizing those events manage to kill off every rattlesnake what will they do next? Have rat and mouse roundups?

The factory where I work has, on occasion, been refuge to a few corn snakes and green racers. Both are harmless and make a healthy dent in the mouse and rat population coming in from the hay fields and creek nearby. I'd much rather find a corn snake warming itself on the concrete floor in our big shop than having to smell the stink of some huge rat taking weeks to decompose between one of the walls in our office.

quote: Mike Blakesley
2. "If you don't like snakes, don't live where they are?" Give me a break. There are rattlesnakes all over Montana but I doubt you'd find more than 1% of the people here who actually like the critters.

Just because someone doesn't "like" snakes gives them no right at all to take stupidly risky actions, such as firing a gun in a friggin' residential area where children are fishing. The actions of the police really cannot be defended.

Few people like snakes. Most have the decent sense to just stay the hell away from them.

quote: Mike Blakesley
3. Don't call the cops to kill a snake? Sorry, but some people are just not crazy/insane/brave enough to kill a snake. Rattlers can get coiled up behind stuff and under rocks and in dark corners, and they can move fast. A coiled rattler can strike up to twice it's length from where it's sitting. I would much rather have a cop come around and dispatch a snake than try to hack one with a shovel myself.

I repeat, fewer than 6 people in the United States are killed by snakes every year. That is not a statement of opinion. It is one of fact.

Most people killed by snakes are doing something stupid with the snakes, such as trying to pick them up or trying to hassle or harm them. A good number of people who die from rattlesnake bites are from a religious group who takes a certain part of the bible literally instead of seeing the metaphor involved. When bitten some refuse medical treatment and die as a result of the bites. If that tradition wasn't a factor you would probably see that average death toll of 5-6 reduced by half or even eliminated completely in some years.

Anyone who claims to have been chased by a rattlesnake is lying.

In Montana, there should be at least a few experienced wildlife officials who can catch and relocate snakes who venture into populated areas. Calling the cops and breaking out the guns, especially within a city like Billings, should never be necessary.

Regardless, any snake that is left alone will leave to find prey elsewhere. An urban environment doesn't provide much food at all for any serpent.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-07-2007, 11:21 PM:

Let's see, I think if you look at my post you'll see that I said the death of the boy was STUPID. So I'm not defending the cops.

I also never said a cop had to SHOOT a snake with a GUN to kill it. I said most people would rather have a cop "dispatch" a snake than do it themselves. Who gives a shit what method the cop uses? Just get rid of the damn thing.

quote: Bobby Henderson
But in all the years I have lived in this area, I have never seen a rattlesnake in Lawton. It's rare to find them in more rural tourist spots like Medicine Park. You usually have to go well into the Wichitas to find any venomous snakes.

I've never seen a rattlesnake in town in my 50 years in Forsyth either, but one was killed two weeks ago outside of a local welding shop.

"Stay the hell away from the snakes?" I've done hundreds of hours of walking in wilderness areas in my life, but the only time I've ever encountered rattlesnakes is at the lake where my family has a summer cabin. Rattlers will take a nap in just about any shady area when it's hot out, often under the house or under a flat rock near the house. We had a snake coil up between two propane tanks once. Nice and cool in there.

Most people freak out whenever they see ANY snake, poisonous or not. A few years ago, a bunch of watersnakes decided to take up residence under the bush outside my front door. First, I trimmed up the bush and flung the snakes over the dike to the river. They were back within a week. So, considering I like to have company once in a while and not scare the bejeebers out of them, the snakes were duly obliterated and I cut the bush completely down.

Bats are great for the environment too, but I don't want'em flyin' around my head.

I never said anything about the number of people killed by snakes. How about the number of people bitten? I would venture to guess it's a much higher number. But the number of snake bites is irrevelant, considering that most people will go completely bonkers at the sight of a snake, so they'll demand it be killed at once. My wife gets the willies if we even see a dead one on the highway.

Again, I wish to state that I'm not defending the cop. He was an idiot for firing his gun when and where he did. Who knows? Maybe he freaks out at the sight of a snake, too.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-07-2007, 11:45 PM:

Ok guys... HERE are the hard facts on snake bites!! That cop should be de-badged for sure. The chances of anyone getting bit by that supposed snake let alone die from it were so low as to not even matter. Also, unless you're shooting with a shot gun you'd better have a dead aim because ANY snake is going to be a difficult target to hit.

Mark

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 08-08-2007, 12:00 AM:

Sunday night residents in the nearby towns of Idalou and Lorenzo lost power for two and a half hours. The outage was blamed on a bull snake, which employees of Xcel Energy discovered fried inside the fence of a substation. [Smile]

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 08-08-2007, 12:28 AM:

According to this the snake was in a bird house.

http://newsok.com/article/3100915

I think the officer(s) need to be prosecuted for negligent homicide. Even if you were to do something as stupid as shooting a snake why the hell would you fire at a snake not on the ground? Anybody with half a brain would know that the bullet would keep going after it hit the snake.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-08-2007, 01:16 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The chances of anyone getting bit by that supposed snake let alone die from it were so low as to not even matter.

That's for sure. We've had that cabin at the lake for over 30 years, and every year I hear about people seeing rattlers or bullsnakes out there, but I have never heard of anyone being bitten by one.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-08-2007, 11:43 AM:

Barney Fife must have gottne more than one bullet.

Snakes are small and hard to hit. Louis

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-08-2007, 01:49 PM:

Just like I thought. The snake in question was not a rattlesnake. It was just a harmless black rat snake. Noble, OK also had been without an animal control officer for the past month, which partly explains why the police were called instead.

The cops may get off the hook due to verbiage in the police department manual, but I think that would be really unfortunate. This was just inexcusable stupidity. Black rat snakes do not look like rattlesnakes at all. Even if the snake turned out to be a rattler or some other venomous species, other solutions should have been figured out besides taking terrible chances firing a handgun in a residential area.

I have a suspicion there's one reason those officers chose to shoot at the snake. There's a certain jokingly macho attitude common around these parts when it comes to wildlife: kill it and laugh. I think the cops figured it would be no big deal to fire at the snake and that the act might be fun.

Lots of people, cops I personally know included, make the same jokes about controlling the prairie dog population in Lawton's Elmer Thomas Park. They joke about it, but thankfully are smart enough to leave the statement as a joke and never act on it.

Quite a few people have fun swerving out of their lane to hit an animal at the side of a road. When I was in high school I watched a motorcyclist wreck his bike when deliberately running over a turtle. Stupid dumbass.

About 10 years ago, a truck hauling stocker steers crashed on an overpass at the I-44 & Cache Road interchange in Lawton. A number of cattle were killed in the crash (some fell from the overpass and others died in the trailer). Some of the cattle got loose. Many residents helped round up the steers that were running loose. But one got a little farther away from the wreck and ventured farther downtown. Animal control was trying to get to the scene to tranquilize the steer. But before he could arrive, several police officers surrounded the steer and emptied their handguns into the animal. A few of the cops were laughing about it, which really pissed off other witnesses who were coming out of the Lawton YMCA that morning. I guess some people just get off on being cruel.

Sometimes that "let's have fun being cruel" macho bullshit backfires. We learn to pull that crap when we are just kids. One of the popular things is to throw rocks at bee hives and wasp nests. Now that we have very aggressive Africanized "killer bees" moving into the area, children have to be warned not to deliberately disturb hives anymore. A man near Duncan, OK was swarmed by Africanized bees a couple days ago and was stung over 500 times on his head and shoulders. He only escaped by getting into his pickup and killing the bees able to get inside with him.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 08-08-2007, 03:18 PM:

"The Noble Police Department's Police and Procedures Manual says "firearms may be used to destroy an animal that represents a threat to public safety.”

I don't think they'll get off the hook quite so easily. The only threat the snake represented was to the birds in the bird house. It wasn't comimg after anybody. And even if they do happen to get off there will most certainly be a wrongfull death suit filled against the officers and/or city.

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 08-08-2007, 08:04 PM:

The trigger-happy nature of cops towards animals of opportunity is known here as well.

When a friend's dog was hit by a car, injuring his leg, the cop on the scene saw fit to shoot the animal immediately. That in spite of the dog's owner shouting at the cop NOT to shoot. She saw him draw his gun and screamed that he wasn't hurt that bad. The cop had already decided he knew better--- or just wanted to shoot something that day. [fu]

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 08-08-2007, 11:48 PM:

Bobby mentioning the animal cruelty-for-fun macho crap that backfires reminds me of an urban legend where these dumbass guys decided to strap on an explosive device of some sort onto a jack rabbit so they could gleefully watch it explode...only to watch said jack rabbit hop beneath their fully loaded 4-wheel-drive vehicle just before detonation... [Smile]

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 08-09-2007, 03:40 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
They got a boy killed as a result of just wanting to get off on killing something. Simple as that.

I'm not sure it is as simple as that. I do not know the officers involved, so I hesitate to assume what their mindset was, but based on what was reported you can almost see how this played out.
Picture it. You get a call from panicky residents claiming a rattle snake is too close for comfort. Your small community has no animal control experts. You, the cop, respond because cops are expected to take care of whatever little problem people are not wanting to deal with themselves. You do not have the option of just leaving the snake there, which would seriously piss off the people that called it in. You don't know what kind of snake it is, but the people responsible for calling it in swear its something dangerous. Bludgeoning the thing to death with a rake, bat, or whatever else would leave a mess, ruin the bird house and probably have some animal rights activist calling the mayor, plus if you miss you could end up making it mad and getting attacked. You decide to shoot it. You succeed in killing the pest, but in the process odds are defied and a horrible accident leaves an innocent boy dead. You end up getting called names and ridiculed by people that only read a few snips in an article.

OK, so I'm taking a few liberties with this, but I hope you get the point. A mistake was made, but I think it is irresponsible to accuse someone of "macho idiocy and the need to have fun shooting guns". I have a few more details that I would like before I pass judgement. Are officers in this area required to go through snake identification when they go through the academy? What bullets was the officer shooting? How many shots in total were fired and how many officers took a shot? What type of area was this?

Obviously the shooter(s) screwed up by not thoroughly checking his background and should be disciplined appropriately, I just think in general a person should be afforded the benefit of the doubt and not be bashed until everything is known.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-11-2007, 06:28 PM:

And just in time to round out this story and thread....

Link
WA man bitten by severed rattlesnake head

10:55 AM PDT on Thursday, August 9, 2007

Associated Press

PROSSER, Wash. (AP) -- A man was bitten by the decapitated head of a rattlesnake on his property near Prosser.

Fifty-three-year-old Danny Anderson and his son saw the five-foot snake Monday evening while feeding horses. They pinned it with a pipe and cut off its head with a shovel.

File Photo

Western rattlesnake

When Anderson reached down to pick it up he says the snake head twisted around and bit his index finger. He says if felt like his hand was in a fire pit.

In the ten minutes it took to reach Prosser Memorial Hospital the venom spread through his body and his tongue had already started to swell. He was treated with shots at the hospital and at Kadlec Medical Center in Richland.

State Fish and Wildlife Department biologist Mike Livingston says it's possible the snake had the heat-sensing ability to make one last attack or it may have been a reflex.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-12-2007, 12:46 AM:

Severed snake heads can still bite. That's fairly common knowledge. Stupid mistake on the part of the bite victim. I'll bet when they get all those big medical bills for emergency treatment they'll wish they would have just left the damned snake alone.

Just because a snake is seen doesn't mean it has to be killed.

quote: Chad Souder
You do not have the option of just leaving the snake there, which would seriously piss off the people that called it in.

Bullshit. A cop does have the latitude to tell people "tough shit." The police didn't have to take very risky chances to satisfy the whims of some candy-ass home owner.

quote: Chad Souder
You don't know what kind of snake it is

It was still daylight at the time of the shooting. The visual differences between a black rat snake and venomous snakes like rattlers and copperheads are very obvious. Cottonmouths aren't found that far north either (and stay secluded in areas of very dense brush near to rivers and lakes).

Even if a King Cobra was climbing up that bird house, the cop would have been stupid to take chances shooting at it.

quote: Chad Souder
Bludgeoning the thing to death with a rake, bat, or whatever else would leave a mess, ruin the bird house and probably have some animal rights activist calling the mayor, plus if you miss you could end up making it mad and getting attacked.

Snakes are easy to kill. Anything from shovels to CO2 fire extinguishers can do the trick.

Your animal rights activist comment doesn't make a damned bit of sense. If they're going to get pissed off, they're going to get pissed off regardless of the method used in killing the animal. By choosing to shoot the thing, and killing a boy as a result, the cops pissed off a much greater percentage of the population. Great job!

And that theory of getting the snake mad and it attacking is just stupid bullshit. Do you think the snake is going to leap out of the birdhouse can outrun everybody and bite them? Hell, the Black Mamba in Africa is much faster and far more aggressive and deadly than any North American snake, but it cannot outrun any person.

quote: Chad Souder
You decide to shoot it. You succeed in killing the pest, but in the process odds are defied and a horrible accident leaves an innocent boy dead. You end up getting called names and ridiculed by people that only read a few snips in an article.

Oh please piss off with that trolling Devil's advocate nonsense.

Police officers are trained to draw their weapons and fire them ONLY when a person's life is in immediate danger. No person's life was in any danger at all in this situation. Yet the police chose to fire anyway. They killed a 5-year old boy as a result.

quote: Chad Souder
Obviously the shooter(s) screwed up by not thoroughly checking his background and should be disciplined appropriately, I just think in general a person should be afforded the benefit of the doubt and not be bashed until everything is known.

I participate in a handgun related forum whose membership features a lot of cops. The opinion there is unanimous: the idiot policeman who fired the gun ought to be brought up on charges of negligent homicide and the family of the shooting victim has one hell of a case for a wrongful death lawsuit.

Here's another angle to view this tragedy: what if it was the candy-ass home owner who tried shooting the snake but killed the little boy instead? I'll tell you what. His ass would be in jail right now. He would be awaiting arraignment on charges of manslaughter or worse.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-12-2007, 05:11 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
It was still daylight at the time of the shooting. The visual differences between a black rat snake and venomous snakes like rattlers and copperheads are very obvious. Cottonmouths aren't found that far north either (and stay secluded in areas of very dense brush near to rivers and lakes).

May be obvious to you, but certainly wouldn't be to me; I've never even seen a snake outside of a zoo, or the girl who brought her pet one to primary school to show us, about 40 years ago. Why should the police officer be an expert on snakes?

Stay away from the thing and get somebody who knows about snakes to deal with it, not the police.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-12-2007, 12:24 PM:

Even if the cop didn't know what kind of snake he was dealing with, or not know much of anything at all about snakes, that's not an excuse that can be defended.

The fact remains that police officers (and anyone else for that matter) can only draw and fire a handgun when a person's life is in immediate danger. Cops know that. You take a grave chance of shooting someone else when firing a gun outside of a gun range or well defined hunting area (and even accidents happen in those places). Guns should never be used lightly, such as the case of satisfying the whims of some home owner afraid of snakes.

The cop chose to draw and fire in a situation that was not life threatening. He chose to draw and fire in a mere nuisance situation. He found out the hard way just why guns should only be used in the most dangerous of situations.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-12-2007, 12:33 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
the family of the shooting victim has one hell of a case for a wrongful death lawsuit.

That's true, and that might open up another whole can of worms. The family will sue for (and probably get) millions of dollars, which is just ridiculous. While you can't put a price on a human life, turning those people into millionaires at the expense of the taxpayers out of sympathy would be wrong too.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-12-2007, 08:23 PM:

Americans love to sue. Seriously, it's the only thing we know how to do.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-13-2007, 01:03 AM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
The family will sue for (and probably get) millions of dollars, which is just ridiculous.

???

Exactly how is that ridiculous?

If this family has no right to sue over what happened then no one has any right to sue anyone anywhere.

We can all just go around firing guns like fuck-tards and to hell with who catches any of the stray rounds. Your wife or son got killed by a stray round? Get over it! Hah! Concepts like "accountability" are for pussies!

The truly ridiculous thing that will likely happen is this trigger happy idiot of a cop will walk. He'll hide behind his badge and his department will help.

Here in Lawton a cop was recently acquitted of murder. He shot an unarmed man several times in the back. The guy simply tried to run away from a DUI stop. He didn't try to fight with the cop or anything. The entire event was caught on videotape. Nevertheless, the jury let the cop walk. I personally know a number law enforcement officers who feel that psycho should have been locked behind bars.

On top of that, the town of Noble, OK isn't exactly rich. So the family probably isn't going to be able to cash in for millions of dollars even though they are clearly justified in doing so.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-13-2007, 09:22 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Exactly how is that ridiculous?

If this family has no right to sue over what happened then no one has any right to sue anyone anywhere.

Don't you ever read a whole post before shooting off a response?

The ridiculous part is that the people will sue for millions of dollars. I never said they shouldn't be able to sue at all. But if they were never going to be millionaires in the first place, and if "no amount of money will ever replace the loss of a child," then they should be limited to suing for a modest amount rather than the taxpayers having to dip into their pockets for the next 20 years to give them a life of luxury they never would have had otherwise.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-13-2007, 10:09 AM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
I never said they shouldn't be able to sue at all.

That's how it would effectively work if they weren't able to sue for a seven figure sum. The legal costs on this type of case would not be cheap. The Noble, OK police department was trying to cover its ass from square one, so you know they're not going to be looking to make a deal with this family out of court.

quote: Mike Blakesley
they should be limited to suing for a modest amount rather than the taxpayers having to dip into their pockets for the next 20 years to give them a life of luxury they never would have had otherwise.

What is a fair "modest" amount of money to make things right for shooting a 5 year old boy in the head through a shamefully stupid act of negligence? Will a $50 bill cover it?

That "otherwise" term can certainly be turned around 180 degrees. That family doesn't need a boost of income they wouldn't have had otherwise? Well, I'm sure they would be thrilled to keep it that way if the police can give back their 5-year old boy who would otherwise be alive if it weren't for some idiot ignoring a fundamental rule of police training involving handgun use.

Parties hurt in an act of negligence deserve to be made "whole." Since it's impossible to bring this boy back to life, his family certainly deserves to sue for every penny they can get. We're not talking about some hot McDonalds coffee spilled in someone's lap. This is something much more serious.

The sad thing is they won't get much money, if anything at all. That should put away any worries that a group of people, no matter how tragically victimized, might possibly get something that could strangely be characterized as welfare.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 08-13-2007, 01:04 PM:

Maybe you should curse more in your posts. That would surely increase the validity of your statements.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 08-13-2007, 01:21 PM:

Back to the ligitation aspect...
I'm afraid the ATTORNEY that this family hires will likely get a sizeable chunk of the settlement (and the county/city's insurance company will likely try to settle first).
I could be wrong...
are there any updates on this case? Is the cop stripped of his duties? Has he been forced to resign yet?
Is the fix in?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-13-2007, 01:42 PM:

quote: Chad Souder
Maybe you should curse more in your posts. That would surely increase the validity of your statements.

The profanity is irrelevant. However, if you have any problem with the heat of the flames, don't take the side of the idiot cop who had no excuse at all in drawing and discharging his weapon. There is no defense for such a reckless act of lunacy.

quote: James Westbrook
...are there any updates on this case? Is the cop stripped of his duties? Has he been forced to resign yet? Is the fix in?

The three police officers who answered the call are on paid administrative leave while the matter is under investigation. The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation is doing its own probe on the matter. The actual shooter has not been named, and none of the three officers have admitted to pulling the trigger either.

If a civilian is under suspicion of getting a child killed he is put in jail straight away. We've seen several stories just this summer of people being charged with manslaughter for letting kids bake to death in parked and locked cars. The dead boy's grandfather even mentioned this point in news reports. Shooting a boy in the head seems like a pretty grave act of negligence. Yet the shooter is not sitting in jail or anything of the sort.

Some will say, "the cop didn't mean to shoot the kid." True. But drunk drivers who kill people in car accidents don't intend to commit murder either, yet they are rightly punished for such a severely stupid action.

I'm coming down hard on this cop because he knows better than to pull any stupidity of this sort. Cops are trained in the use of deadly force on knowing when and where it is appropriate. A scenario with a snake climbing up a birdhouse is clearly not such a situation. He chose to fire anyway without regard to having a clearly defined safe background.

Someone at another gun related forum had this comment: There is no "I'm sorry," when it comes to shooting accidents.

Posted by Christopher Meredith (Member # 3767) on 08-13-2007, 02:46 PM:

You can go to the bank on there being a wrongful death lawsuit, and there ought to be negligent homicide charges too, depending on how corrupt the town government is...

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 08-16-2007, 07:32 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
don't take the side of the idiot cop

I never defended the cop. In fact, I said that he screwed up and that he should be disciplined accordingly. I also, however, can see the chance of a very good person making a very bad mistake. It happens. It is very easy to pass judgement from the keyboard.

quote: Bobby Henderson
who had no excuse at all in drawing and discharging his weapon

But he did have an excuse. It was a poor excuse and the wrong decision, but it is not like he just pulled his weapon and started taking random shots.

If you read the articles carefully, you can see many things that bring up questions. If it was just a routine call about a routine snake, why do 3 officers (out of a force of 10) show up? How do 2 officers stand by and let the third make this mistake? Was it a training issue or is there some other circumstance not being mentioned that would allow 2 other trained cops and possibly civilian onlookers to just stand there and not say anything? Something just seems off to me.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-16-2007, 10:33 PM:

quote: Chad Souder
I never defended the cop.

Yes you did. You imagined a number of scenarios of trying to find some way how the cop could manage some half-assed defense for committing an act that really cannot and should not be defended. And you whined about strong criticism against that cop from people such as my self.

quote: Chad Souder
But he did have an excuse. It was a poor excuse and the wrong decision, but it is not like he just pulled his weapon and started taking random shots.

Ask yourself this question: Was anyone shooting at the cop? Was anyone shooting at the home owner or any other bystander? Was a person threating anybody with a deadly weapon, such as a gun, knife, baseball bat, etc.? With all of the answers being a resounding "NO" the cop had no excuse, I repeat no excuse at all, in even drawing his weapon much less firing it.

You can try as hard as you can to spin it whatever way you like. But the plain fact is there was no justification for that cop to draw his weapon at all. Those cops knew that. They knew it from their training. Most courses on gun safety and self defense will stress the same point very strongly.

quote: Chad Souder
If it was just a routine call about a routine snake, why do 3 officers (out of a force of 10) show up?

Very simple. They probably didn't have anything else to do and wanted to get their kill groove on.

Like it or not, some people are deviant perverts who get off on violence. There's no shortage of such odd-balls in these parts. Some of them are among the degenerates who get into pit-bull dog fighting, illegal spot-light deer hunting and just killing any living thing they can manage to get away with killing. Frankly, I'm fairly certain these three cops are likely some idiot hillbillies cut from that kind of cloth. It's just like that group of asshole cops here in my own town who mowed down a stocker steer right in the middle of Lawton in front of a bunch of other people and then laughed about it. Pretty damned sick.

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 08-16-2007, 11:52 PM:

[sleep]

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 08-17-2007, 05:54 PM:

But...a cop, who is supposed to KNOW BETTER, shot at a snake and KILLED A FIVE YEAR OLD BOY. Bobby is right to be outraged.
I actually am, despite my earlier flipant posts where I was trying to lighten things up a bit. There is no light to this.
I'm in the leave the snakes alone camp.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-17-2007, 11:00 PM:

Mike. I invite you to direct that "ZZZ" comment at the family of that 5-year old boy that just got buried. Do that and see if others aren't arranging your funeral in short order as well. JFC!!!
[Confused]

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 08-18-2007, 03:55 AM:

I was just pointing out the fact you seem to like to argue endlessly about anything (whatever happened to your sparring partner Mike Schindler?)... I feel bad for the family of course but it's not like they're going to read this website, they've got more important things to do.