Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Plasma or LCD?

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Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 09-21-2007, 10:27 AM:

I'm installing a video system for a new sports bar in Evansville. It will have a few "big" screens in the bar, and a dozen or so smaller LCDs throughout the place. Any suggestions on TVs would be much appreciated. I can get a 50" Plasma for under a thousand bucks, or an L.C.D. for more than twice that.

Has anyone used the Cable Card option in the TVs? I had never heard of them until the cable guy told me about them. I am running component to the 4 main TVs, and a single RG6 to the others. He said they can program the card and I don't need a box for each TV.

It will probably end up with 4 DirecTV receivers for the NFL Sunday ticket, digital cable, and a Wii on the main TV in the bar. Everything will be ran into an A/V room. Any suggestions or experience on distribution amps for the basic cable? I want to make this as flexible and user friendly as I can. The direcTV boxes will be in the A/V room, so I am putting a monitor in there so they can change channels in there and not have a box at each TV.

I've got one wall that I could probably use a video projector instead of a flat screen. This would be the main focal point in the bar area.

Thanks, Rick

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 09-21-2007, 11:08 AM:

I'm far from an expert, but I have both plasma and lcd and, in fact, have used both in a commercial environment. In a fairly recent mall renovation we installed two 42" plasma televisions in a food court and several relatively similar sized lcd's throughout the mall as directories and to remind patrons of our promotions. After three years of use 24/7 the plasma's are showing some signs of dimming while the lcd's, to my eye, look like the day we put them in. If memory serves me, both are rated for something like 50,000 hours of use, but the lcd's seem to go a long time before you see any degradation of picture while the plasma's gradually dim. Also, lcd's use a LOT less power.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-21-2007, 02:11 PM:

I would never spec in any plasma stuff. The color rendition on plasma is always out in left field somewhere... generally horrible. Also be sure to use HD sets since the FCC has mandated that the old xmitters will be shut down in early 2009. Also plasma sets actually do use phosphor on the screens and they can suffer form screen burn in just like a regular CRT.

Mark

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 09-21-2007, 02:11 PM:

Rick, if your using Directv, why do you need the cable as well?

You could just run HDMI to all the TV's from the Directv box's.
You can get HDMI splitters fairly reasonable.

Hook up an off air antenna to the directv box, and you have the local stations in HD as well.

Directv is on the verge of a major expansion of their HD channel lineup as soon as they get the kinks worked out of their new bird. 70 HD channels by the end of October. This will include some regional sports networks as well.

Cable Cards work very well. If your dealing with Sigecom/Wow, for cable, you will run into the idiot factor. Meaning, the installers for Sigecom arn't the smartest bulbs. Upper level support isn't much better.

I would also vote for LCD's over plasma. Better yet, give Samsungs new thin rear projection sets a look.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-21-2007, 03:23 PM:

The Feb 2009 analog cutoff date (which will probably need to be extended at some point, since no politician wants to have to explain to Aunt Millie why her TV won't work) has nothing to do with HD vs. SD. It is about the need for sets to have ATSC tuners (or external ATSC tuner boxes) in order to receive OTA signals once the existing analog transmission frequencies are shut off and auctioned to the highest bidder. TV stations can continue to broadcast SD material and many will not convert to HD for quite some time (if ever).

Since the setup described in the original post involves cable service, none of this is an issue, anyway. In any case, all new TV sets over a certain size (13"?) must now have built-in ATSC tuners in order to be sold in the US, which makes the issue even more irrelevant for a new installation.

Does the Directv system still have really nasty compression artifacts all over the picture? I remember watching a basketball game on a Directv system a few years ago and it was barely watchable.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-21-2007, 03:39 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
The Feb 2009 analog cutoff date (which will probably need to be extended at some point, since no politician wants to have to explain to Aunt Millie why her TV won't work) has nothing to do with HD vs. SD. It is about the need for sets to have ATSC tuners (or external ATSC tuner boxes) in order to receive OTA signals once the existing analog transmission frequencies are shut off and auctioned to the highest bidder. TV stations can continue to broadcast SD material and many will not convert to HD for quite some time (if ever).

Scott,

Its more to do with being able to receive Digital Television than any orher aspect be it HD or SD. If a set's specs say that it is HD ready(not HD capable) that means that it will also receive Digital signals over the air in either SD or HD. Also don't forget that ALL licensed television stations HAVE TO be on the air with new transmitters (even the small guys and small network affiliates) with digital transmitters by that date. The FCC has already said they will not extend the deadline again but opt to assist folks in getting the required adaptor boxes. Ho9w theya re going to pull off the latter I have no idea. Also a good portion of the network affiliates programming comes over the network in HD so the majority will still be broadcasting at least some network oriented HD programming and HD re-runs. There are two indies here in SLC that are broadcasting re-run shows in HD already.

quote: Richard Hamilton
I've got one wall that I could probably use a video projector instead of a flat screen. This would be the main focal point in the bar area.

I would just put in a super large LCD set there. The replacement lamps for either a video projector or rear screen set would be quite high over say a 5 year period of running as many hours as a bar does. The cost of those lamps adds up to about the cost of a really big LCD set and I think the LCD will outperform even a decent projector in brightness and color under a "bar situation". Also replacement lamps for the most part are not warranted as to number of hours of life... at least if there are warranties its meaningless... There would also not be a screen to dick around with and risk being damaged by spraying beer and drinks... cigarette smoke etc. An LCD screen can just be cleaned with Windex and always look good.

There is an install like this in Cheyenne, Wyoming at Sanfords Grub and Pub. There are just over 180 microbrew tappers in several long rows under that huge LCD screen. Makes for quite a sight. Some of the microbrews are also pretty good [beer]

.

Mark

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 09-21-2007, 05:50 PM:

Adaptor boxes aren't going to solve people who can't receive digital television because of multipath problems inadequate SNR...

--jhawk

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-21-2007, 07:04 PM:

quote: John Hawkinson
Adaptor boxes aren't going to solve people who can't receive digital television because of multipath problems inadequate SNR...

Thats what cable and satellite is for... and by the way cable is still going to broadcast good ole NTSC for quite a while AFTER the analog transmitters are switched off... mainly for those cheapskates unwilling to leap into the digital age. The thing with the switchoff is not only the FCC selling off the airwaves for bukoo dollars but the stations having to operate one expensive analog transmitter and one super expensive digital transmitter simultainously. At least the shut down will give them some relief by getting rid of the old stuff. Digital transmitters are power pigs because they are normally much higher power as compared to older analog transmitters. The Power bill on a 100kw UHF analog transmitter is in excess of 45 grand a month these days. When I was in TV it was just over 20 grand a month... that was in the early 80's.

The interesting thing will be to see how complicated the papwework is going to be for those folks that are going to go for the gov't aid or freebie convertor boxes.... it'll probably alot more complicated than hooking them up or operating them will be...

Mark

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 09-21-2007, 09:44 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The Power bill on a 100kw UHF analog transmitter is in excess of 45 grand a month these days.

UHF transmitters are less than 30% efficient?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-21-2007, 11:07 PM:

I can't rememner the efficiency percentage but in the 30 percent range woud not be unrealistic to say the least. Most of the power went to boiling the ionized/distilled water in the three klystrons! I assisted in installing the first pulser that went on a TTU-110. It increased efficiency enough to lower the power bill to 16 to 18 grand a month. It did something to the sync pulse on the transmitted signal but I don't remember exactly what. That sync pulse was equivelent to 100% modulation point as far as power consumption went.

The KSL digital xmitter on Farnsworth Peak has an ERP of 546KW while the analog transmitter has an ERP of 33.4KW. Quite a difference!

Mark

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-22-2007, 12:24 AM:

Be aware that not all HDTV's have the cable card slot and in fact some brands are getting away from them. the big issue with cable cards is the fact that they are one way communicators. In other words they can't do pay per view or video on demand because that requires two way communications. So if the sports bar was going to get a pay per view sports event it would not be able to use the cards it would need the set top box.

As far as my plasma a Panasonic Th-42px75u, I am very satisfied with the color reproduction on that set. Now I know about the plasmas problems reproducing accurate greens but after using the Digital Video Essentials test disk DVD, the picture looks damn good. As far as a sports bar the LCD's may be a better choice because like mark said the plasma sets do have a burn in risk however not as big of risk if you follow the 100 hour break in period and keep the brightness closer to zero on the settings which is adequate in a dark or low lit room. Playing things that would leave stationary images for long periods of time such as DVD menus with bright words or video games are the big culprits for the burn in issue.

quote: Richard Hamilton
Any suggestions or experience on distribution amps for the basic cable?

Talk to the cable company about this just to make sure the equipment is ok to use. The reason is, if the distribution amplifiers cause any leaking of the signal the cable company will come out and shut it down until the issue is remedied. Stay away from anything Radio Shack! Basically the issue of signal leakage is a big concern for the cable companies because of FCC regulations governed around interference with radio signals and aircraft. I had a Radio Shit line amp on our cable lines and the cable company did a routine check for leakage in our area. They cut my service and came knocking at the door. Turns out it was that line amp so they got me a line amp off their truck to put on and everything was fine.

Posted by John Hegel (Member # 628) on 09-22-2007, 02:18 AM:

I'll stick of for the plasmas. We have somewhere around 60 42" plasmas at my place of work. They have all been running for the last 18 months without a single failure. I haven't noticed any loss of brightness; but who knows, that may be more evident in the future and lead to many fun replacement projects.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 09-22-2007, 03:33 AM:

LCDs have traditionally only been available in smaller sizes than plasmas; larger ones have become available more recently, but they are expensive.

Pixels on plasma screens are larger, and the space between them wider, which generally makes plasmas more suitable for larger screen sizes than for smaller ones.

Plasma screens do burn very easily, and badly, we have some at work which are about three years old, and will have to be replaced soon for this reason. They are generally not good in applications where they will display static images, text, logos etc. for long periods of time

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 09-22-2007, 06:04 AM:

Be wary of plasmas, especially in areas where other radio receivers will be used. They are big-time emitters of RFI (radio frequency interference). [thumbsdown]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-22-2007, 11:40 AM:

Another bad thing about plasmas is many are much lower in native resolution than LCD.

Most of the LCD-based TVs have had true 1920 X 1080 resolution screens for the past year or so. It's getting hard to find a LCD TV that doesn't sport 1080p unless you're looking at small/cheap sets.

OTOH, true 1920 X 1080 resolution in a plasma TV is still kind of rare. Many sets have mere 1280 X 720 resolution or maybe 1366 X 768. I'm still seeing quite a few of those anamorphic 1024 X 768 monstrosities out there. If you want true "1080p" native resolution in a plasma TV you have to fork out some really serious money.

Meanwhile, LCD-based TVs have really been improving on their viewing angles and deepness of black levels. I was looking at a mid-sized Sharp Aquous TV a couple of weeks ago and thought its picture looked outstanding. All the TVs near it were playing the same video stream and various ones had mosquito noise and all sorts of other artifacts happening (not to mention all the plasma TVs were more coarse looking for the lower resolution). The Aquous TV had a very sharp picture, brilliant in color and very smooth.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 09-22-2007, 01:36 PM:

If you need distribution amps and such stick with Channelplus Equipment

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-28-2007, 02:15 AM:

Plasma is like fluorescent light tubes... the colors are produced by phosphors. And like fluorescent tubes they dim and wear out very quickly and perform like crap in less than room temperatures.

I'd much rather pay the bux for LCD.