Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: DV Cam recommendations.

This is topic DV Cam recommendations. in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-18-2007, 06:21 PM:

Hello, DV pros: I want to get my son a good DV cam for Christmas this year. Preferrably, something that records to an on-board drive, from which he can just plug into a USB port to get the video into his computer for editing. I'd like something of semi-professional quality, in the $600-$800 range if possible.

My son's 12, and fairly sophisticated regarding production techniques (like blue and green screen composites, and digital fx), so I'd like to get him something that he'll find useful. Something he could make a film festival entry with.

Any suggestions?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-18-2007, 07:30 PM:

Doesn't your son also sport that "Tim" style hairdoo [Wink]

?

Mark

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-18-2007, 09:03 PM:

Thankfully not. [Wink]

Posted by Peter David Bruce (Member # 4447) on 11-19-2007, 08:30 AM:

one of the Sony ones would be good. DONT go for hard drive as they are very compressed and if you are on a mac, you cant edit the damn stuff. go for mini dv. its tapes, yes, but ive been using a Sony TRV900 minidv tape camera for years. tough as a tank, broadcast quality. small enough for one hand. you can get them quite easily cos they were A BIG sellout for sony.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-19-2007, 10:32 AM:

Here's my 2¢

For affordable digital video cameras, I prefer the ones that are MiniDV tape-based due to the severe video compression you get with the DVD and hard disc based consumer cameras. Any reasonably new computer won't have any trouble capturing MiniDV footage via a Firewire cable.

I would also recommend a camera with 3 CCD chips. 3 chip video cameras capture color much more accurately than any single chip camera. Panasonic has a couple 3 chip models in the $600-$800 price range. Some other companies may have 3CCD models in that price range as well.

Posted by Peter David Bruce (Member # 4447) on 11-19-2007, 11:38 AM:

my trv being one of them. minidv, full 576lines, 3ccd, firewire interface, line in, line out, s-video, composite connections. hotshoe adapter ontop for directional mics/flashlights. huge 3.5" screen on the side. stereo microphones with built in baffles. ..

infact i learnt recently my model was used by the BBC for alot of wildlife filming. didnt believe it til i saw it on tv a few years back!

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-19-2007, 11:55 AM:

Thanks for the info, guys. Re: the mini DV tapes & Firewire combo... does the computer see that as a hard drive? Or, do you have to have a capture card, too?

Thanks again for the tips, I'm a rank amateur in this line.

Posted by Peter David Bruce (Member # 4447) on 11-19-2007, 12:28 PM:

on the mac - it will just see it no problem. even asks you if you want to import - just click Import!

on the pc - just the same as far as I know. whatever movie editing software you have (microsoft movie maker?) should see it when you open the application, thus allowing you to just play it straight into the computer.

it wont be seen as a hard drive. tapes are tapes. you still have to play it to see it. its not solid state. [Smile]

best format though.. in my opinion. all these new HD cameras have a long way to go!

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-19-2007, 02:01 PM:

We have PCs... my son has Windows Vista.

Posted by Peter David Bruce (Member # 4447) on 11-19-2007, 02:05 PM:

should have everything at your disposal then. and from what you say hes already a bit of a whizz at editing, so does he have software suitable for it? or can his school provide?

good luck with it. im here if you need any specific product advice. cant help ALOT with the PC and vista, but please feel free to ask.

PB

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-19-2007, 06:51 PM:

When a video camera is connected to a computer via Firewire it can record MiniDV video to that computer's hard disc in a somewhat similar fashion to how a DVR works. Better quality "NLE" video editing software will give you more options on capturing video from a MiniDV tape.

Modern computers don't require a dedicated capture card to record standard resolution video unless you are recording video from an analog source. A Firewire connection on a WinXP-based PC or Mac running OSX will run fine. Older operating systems may be subject to a 4GB maximum file size limit -which would stop MiniDV capture at around the 16 minute mark. No such limits with newer computers.

One thing I do recommend adding to a computer is a 2nd physical hard disc drive. You don't want to capture lots of DV footage to your computer's boot hard disc.

HD-based video (720p, 1080i, 1080p) may require a special accelerator card, such as the Aja Xena|HS and even a RAID-based hard disc setup to keep from dropping frames.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-19-2007, 07:27 PM:

Pffft. HD-based video in consumer cameras these days runs at the same bitrate as MiniDV... or very close to it. It really is quite pathetic. I vote for MPEG (in any flavor) to go away forever as an acquisition format. I prefer my frames individualized.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-19-2007, 08:56 PM:

Joe, I was waiting for you to weigh-in on this. [Smile]

Do you have any suggestions for a camera - and for easily getting the video into the computer? The HD cams really sound promising at this point - Panasonic has a 3-chip model for around $750 that'll do 24P at 1920 x 1080 - but it only records to some kind of RAM card. I guess I will go see what the video looks like from some of these cams.

Thanks again, everyone!

Posted by Jennifer Pan (Member # 2035) on 11-20-2007, 12:09 AM:

This might help: http://www.camcorderinfo.com/

Sometimes I go to Youtube to see test videos of camcorders, you can usually find about any current models on there. Very compressed but its basically just to give you a little taste of what to sort of expect.

cnet.com also does some video reviews of some current camcorders as well.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-20-2007, 12:18 AM:

That Panasonic camcorder probably records in some MPEG variant. The Panasonic DVX-100A should be cheap by now. It has 24p but don't turn on the lights when you're using it because it has a low dynamic range on the video and it doesn't take much to blow out the picture. It is SD. Maybe also try the Canon GL2, I don't think it has 24p, though. Again, I am not fond of the HD formats so far. The one you speak of probably only captures 1440x540 60 times per second. No consumer camera can yet capture the full 1920x1080.

Try not to trust internet videos as they are compressed all to hell, conformed to 1 strict framerate (Youtube does not play 24fps video at 24fps) and is often resized. You need to download native video from the camera itself if possible. Stills can be helpful as well.

So far the Canon XL2 is the best camera I've used, better than the Canon XLH1 or whatever it is.

Posted by Jennifer Pan (Member # 2035) on 11-20-2007, 12:41 AM:

I don't think they even sell the DVX100A beside having them in as part of film kits. Panasonic sort of improved that model which is now called the DVX100B.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-20-2007, 05:58 AM:

I really appreciate all the input. And thanks for that link, Jen!

Joe, the specs on all the HD cameras I've checked out say 1920 x 1080, 24p, and one uses something called "ACVHD (MPEG-4 AVCH/H.264: 5/7/9/15 Mbps)" for a recording scheme. Here are some online spec sheets:

See what you think. "Maximum Video Capture Resolution: 1920 x 1080" Do you think they're fudging this somehow? (FWIW, this camera actually has 5 on board mics, and records AC3 audio. Not very practical for videomakers, but a nice thought just the same.)

Here's another one. Says, "True HD CMOS sensor (1920 x 1080)" It captures true 1080 High Definition resolution video in 16:9 format, using MiniDV cassette tapes.

And then there's this one. Which is probably out of my price range, but the specs are similar.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-20-2007, 10:16 AM:

HDV is only capable of 1440 horizontal pixels and is stretched to 16:9. Read this, especially the parts about compression. Avoid HDV. It is "teh suk", at least in my opinion. For shooting videos of the family it'd probably be fine since nobody cares about family videos anyway. Now the other one that has the H.264 capture would be better, but it is still based on MPEG and therefore does not treat each frame independently. If you plan on editing, this is bad and you will be forced to endure at least one more generation loss than if you had shot on a format that wasn't MPEG.

If you must go with HDV, get one that is 720p, and make absolutely sure it isn't 960x720 because models with that resolution do exist! Interlacing is unacceptable.

Posted by Harry Robinson (Member # 265) on 11-20-2007, 02:14 PM:

I just had to order a DV camera for my wife's adoption agency. They want to use it to record training session, etc. It was imperative that the camera accept an external mike. Canon makes a bargain-priced Mini-DV camera that shoots native wide screen and accepts the external input. It is the ZR800 model. Having the capacity to use a mike will give your son flexibility if he wants to shoot some narrative stuff. And the 199 price at B & H leaves room for other stuff. Just a thought.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-22-2007, 09:23 PM:

Thanks. [Smile]

I'm taking notes on everything, folks, so feel free to jump in with more suggestions.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 11-24-2007, 02:46 PM:

Hi Tim

My suggestion would be to get him the cheapest single chip mini DV tape camera and a roll of gaff tape. Tell him is OK to loose it or break it! but you would prefere that it would be running at the time!

A second hand lighting kit, light weight fluid head tripod and a book about 101 DIY home made dollies and camera cranes (I can find the books real title if you need)

Then suggest a trip in the car, gaff tape the camera to the side of the vechicle and go!

Just an idea!