Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Nine Inch Nails

This is topic Nine Inch Nails - The Slip in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-06-2008, 09:38 PM:

Anyone who is a fan of Nine Inch Nails needs to visit the nin.com website. Trent Reznor has made the latest NIN album, The Slip available to download free. Perhaps this is a another big middle finger to point at major record labels. Users can download files in a choice of formats (and download more than just one type of format): high bit rate MP3, FLAC lossless, Apple M4A lossless and a 1.2GB 24/96 wave.

Reznor says a CD release of the same material is coming in July for those who want a tangible product for their music collection.

Additionally, the NIN website has set up a registration system for NIN fans to buy advance, pre-sale tickets to NIN shows on the upcoming tour. These tickets are available exclusively through the NIN website well before any of the arenas make them publicly available. Fans will be required to show legal identification at the venue's will call office to pick up these tickets. This move is an attempt to sabotage efforts of greedy ticket scalping firms that otherwise hijack the best seats of many concerts out of the hands of true fans.

I hope the move works and becomes a model for many other concert performers to use. I also wish for the folks who run those ticket scalping operations to contract malignant tumors behind their eyeballs.

Anyway, kudos to Trent Reznor. He's a very progressive and generous musician.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-06-2008, 11:05 PM:

NIN, isn't that a recent flop movie with Jodie Foster? (Sorry)

I think Nine Inch Nails has been a free agent for a couple of albums now, so not surprising he's doing the free-download thing. It worked well for Radiohead on their new album "In Rainbows" -- although with them, you could pay whatever you wanted for the album -- or nothing, if you so chose. I read somewhere that about half of the downloaders chose the "nothing" option, but others paid up to $15 voluntarily.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-06-2008, 11:37 PM:

I'll probably buy the retail CD version of The Slip since I already own all the other NIN studio albums.

I think it's kind of slick how the MP3 files were put together for this album. I copied the 10 MP3 files from the album onto my Playstation 3 via a "MUSIC" folder on a SD card. Data in the tracks helped the PS3 organize all 10 into their own "album" complete with the cover art and different graphic thumbnails for each song. The album plays in order without any audio breaks between the tracks -just like how a regular CD would behave. Programs like iTunes may do the same thing with the files.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-07-2008, 02:39 PM:

I think it's great. I thinkn Trent Reznor is a rare bread in the music industry. I think that Trent realizes that a lot of NIN fans are um... fanatical. They will buy ANYTHING that sais NIN or has anything to do with it. I think Trent realizes that those loyal fans have made him a lot of money. Unlike a lot of other artists who forget that it's the fans that pay thier bills he appreciates it so he is doing something to give back to the people who have supported him and his music for years. I think it's great. I like NIN they are not my favorite but I like them but I have TREMENDOUS respect for Trent which is a rare way for me to feel about a mainstream big label musician. I think Trent has stayed down to earth and is not so full of himself as to not appreciate his fans. I think some artists think that thier fans are lucky to be able to pay big bucks to hear thier music. Not Trent. Just my opinion.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-07-2008, 03:23 PM:

quote: Sean McKinnon
I think that Trent realizes that a lot of NIN fans are um... fanatical.

OT:
Reminds me of some sort of High School Assembly where the assistant principal was joking about this one kid being the school's "superfan" since he went all out at everything. Then the guy said "Remember that you can be a fan without being fanatic."

Sadly, he was serious.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-07-2008, 03:51 PM:

Don't get me wrong... I am not saying there is anything wrong with being a "super fan" I get like that with some of the local Boston punk and hardcore bands. I am just saying that it is good that Trent Reznor recognizes that and is willing to give something back to his fans.

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 05-07-2008, 04:38 PM:

I remember George Michael doing a similar thing with his album a few years ago. The difference being that it was never available on CD.

I appreciate Trent's generosity and willingness to give back to his fans. It's refreshing to see this in a world so full of commercialized and talent-less music.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-07-2008, 06:56 PM:

I'm not a NIN fan (not my kind of music) but I appreciate the dedication his fans have. NIN is not one of our top sellers but there are a few guys around town who always start inquiring whenever a new CD is imminent.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-07-2008, 08:36 PM:

NOTE:
I wasn't saying anything against super-fans either. I was simply pointing out that the guy was saying you can be a fan without being a fanatic despite fan being short for fanatic.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-09-2008, 09:55 AM:

ah I get you now! I never realized that "fan" was short for fanatic that's pretty funny! I guess you learn something every day!

[ 05-09-2008, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Sean McKinnon ]

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 05-10-2008, 04:59 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Perhaps this is a another big middle finger to point at major record labels.

I think the reasoning behind it is that CD sales have fallen so very, very far over these past couple years. I heard something on the radio about how #1 album sales recently was 160,000. Pathetic. People are downloading music now, easy as that.

Jimmy Chamberlain of The Smashing Pumpkins in a recent interview disclosed that the Pumpkins would not be releasing any more albums for retail sale - ever. They will be making 3-5 songs available for download a few times a year.

Bands have always made more money off tours anyway, so I doubt this trend will hurt their income, the difference will be for the labels. Reznor is the man, always has been, so as a NIN fan I trust his decision. I'm glad he's still going to offer a physical album, but I wonder how many remixes he will go through between now and then.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-10-2008, 05:29 PM:

One of the things I really like most about what Reznor is doing is he's accommodating both the portable, low quality segment of the music market as well as catering to the high end sector.

Reznor does have a keen interest in 24-bit 96kHz recording and new disc formats like Blu-ray. His recent instrumental project Ghosts I-IV was available for free download in a variety of audio formats including 24/96 and a special Blu-ray disc package including a lot of artwork was made available.

What Reznor is doing is essentially what the music industry should have been doing for the past several years. If I ran a record company, I'd make severely compressed MP3's available for anyone to download at any time, but I would put together retail products with a lot of great value in them rather than just stick a $20 CD in a regular old jewel case.

Vinyl records used to sell very well for all the extra, cool stuff you got with the packaging. Music CDs don't do that. You don't have large, cool looking artwork. It's just a little bit of tiny crap no more remarkable than a small tri-fold brochure.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 05-12-2008, 07:25 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Vinyl records used to sell very well for all the extra, cool stuff you got with the packaging. Music CDs don't do that. You don't have large, cool looking artwork. It's just a little bit of tiny crap no more remarkable than a small tri-fold brochure.

I'm sure we all remember those few, brief years when CDs came in the long, rectangular boxes that did sometimes have cool stuff. From what I recall, it was the environmentalist movement that ended that and resigned CDs to what they are today.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-12-2008, 09:16 PM:

Those long rectangular boxes were primarily used as a means to discourage shoplifting. Not as easy to stick one of those things in your pockets.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-12-2008, 10:53 PM:

The longboxes were also a way to still have a 12" tall package, and display CDs in LP bins.

All it takes is a good album if you want to sell a bunch. Mariah Carey moved 465,000 of her newest CD in the first weekend.

quote: Bobby Henderson
I would put together retail products with a lot of great value in them rather than just stick a $20 CD in a regular old jewel case.

I wish you and everyone else would stop griping about the CD prices.

(1) The retail price of CDs has NEVER been $20, all right? The high end list price at most labels right now is $18.98, not $20, and the Universal Music Group's releases (the largest company) usually have a list price of $13.98, not $20, and any respectable non-chain store will usually sell everything for at least a dollar or more off of the list price. You can buy just about anything you want from Amazon for $12 or less, or you can get it for under $10 on eBay within days of release if you shop carefully. Average prices are LOWER than they were a few years ago.

(2)A three-fold brochure in a plain jewel box? Have you not bought a CD in the last five years? There has been a lot of extra added value added to packages in recent times. DVDs full of videos, extra CDs of remixes, special types of packaging (Tool's AEnmia comes to mind). You might find anything from 12 to 20 pages of content, maybe on special paper, maybe a fold-out package like a mini album cover, maybe embossed. I recently bought the latest Sergio Mendes CD -- he's not exactly a huge seller, but his album came in a tri-fold digipak with a 24-page full color booklet, a second booklet with all the lyrics, and three bonus tracks.

Anyone with two brain cells knows that CD sales are down because of downloading. PERIOD. iTunes has sold in the BILLIONS of songs, so think how many billions or even trillions more are downloaded (stolen, that is) for free.

I used to sell lotsa LP records back in the day. I never heard anyone say "I'm getting this because of the cool gatefold cover and the enclosed poster!"

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-12-2008, 11:46 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
The retail price of CDs has NEVER been $20, all right?

Do you have a fye store near where you live? I've seen single disc CDs there for $20. Not many are below $18.99.

Nevertheless, many music only CDs can cost nearly as much if not more than concert and music video DVDs from the same artist. The music CD concept and its pricing is outdated. It has too much competition in the same price ranges. If the music industry just wants to go about business as usual they're going to keep losing more customers.

quote: Mike Blakesley
A three-fold brochure in a plain jewel box? Have you not bought a CD in the last five years?

CD packaging typically sucks compared what was possible with 12" vinyl LPs. It's all tiny design. There's much less of a need for elaborate illustrations. And there is no room for big fold out posters in a tiny CD case. The same problem affects movies. Movie posters these days are often just boring photography which is easily reduced to fit a DVD cover.

To answer the question, yes, I do still buy music CDs on occaision (but that's increasingly rare). It's rare for any CD packaging to be impressive at all.

10,000 Days from Tool had pretty interesting 3D imagery and fold out glasses, but it was tricky to use. And the paper sleeve for holding the disc was a really shitty design -good for scratching the disc surface all to hell. You're stuck with having to make a backup disc and never touch the original.

quote: Mike Blakesley
Anyone with two brain cells knows that CD sales are down because of downloading.

Well, if nothing special is put into the tangible CD product to justify it taking up space in the house why buy it at all? Downloading makes perfect sense in that regard.

quote:
I used to sell lotsa LP records back in the day. I never heard anyone say "I'm getting this because of the cool gatefold cover and the enclosed poster!"

Now I think you're just playing Devil's Advocate.

Back in the day the cassette tape was the main competition to vinyl LPs. The big LPs usually featured lyrics and lots of other stuff printed on the album sleeves. Posters and other stuff would be included as well -although that kind of died out at the end of the 1970s. Cassette tapes could offer any of that bonus material. And it they tried, the customer would have to break out a magnifying glass to read any of the type.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-13-2008, 12:04 AM:

Mike,

When CDs first came out people argued that the reason they were more expensive than cassettes and LPs was that it was a new product. And it made sense: generally any new technology is expensive and eventually goes down to a more reasonable price.

But that never really happened.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-13-2008, 12:22 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Back in the day the cassette tape was the main competition to vinyl LPs. The big LPs usually featured lyrics and lots of other stuff printed on the album sleeves. Posters and other stuff would be included as well -although that kind of died out at the end of the 1970s.

Uh, Bobby, I remember the '70s well. I was there, dude. I got into the music business at the height of the 8-track era - 1970, so you don't have to school me about LPs and cassettes and why they sold. Cassettes got popular because you could record on them, they were smaller and they were easy to take in the car, and they were more reliable than 8-tracks. But LPs continued to be popular because they sounded better, mainly.

You are turned on by a fancy package -- there's nothing wrong with that. But the vast majority of people today don't give two shits about the packaging. Hell, half of them leave the CD package at home and just take the disk (or a copy) in their car. They just want the music, which is why downloading is popular. It's also the reason CD sales continue to slide, no matter what kind of extra crap they shove into the packages.

Oh, to answer your question - no, there's not an fye anywhere near here or even in this state, to my knowledge. But anyone who buys their music without price-shopping is just asking to be raped at the cash register. We still sell CDs at my day job. The price range is from $10.88 to $15.88, and almost all new releases are $11.88 (Universal titles) or $14.88 (non-Universal).

Posted by Frank Bruno (Member # 1871) on 05-13-2008, 01:20 AM:

This packaging argument is actually sort of relevant. I like the packaging on the NIN cds. Waited for retail Ghosts I-IV for that reason, likely to wait for Slip too.

Did anybody pick up the retail In Rainbows? Triumph of graphic design, even had front & back "covers" If you were going to put it in a jewelcase (or had already burned it...)

Mike, what's the retail music landscape in Montana like? I had a friend in the Air Force out there, not sure where, who told me 2 or 3 years ago the major big box media retailers hadn't gotten out there, but there were local stores like them. HE described them as being like a Barnes & Noble or a Borders with a video game section.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-13-2008, 03:24 AM:

Too bad the band is so shitty.

Posted by Aaron Burgess (Member # 3875) on 05-13-2008, 09:58 AM:

[Smile]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-13-2008, 10:50 AM:

quote: Frank Bruno
Mike, what's the retail music landscape in Montana like? I had a friend in the Air Force out there, not sure where, who told me 2 or 3 years ago the major big box media retailers hadn't gotten out there, but there were local stores like them. HE described them as being like a Barnes & Noble or a Borders with a video game section.

That's pretty accurate. We have most of the "big" retailers like Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Sam's, Target, Costco. I'm not sure if Circuit City has gotten into Montana yet -- I know there isn't one in Billings, the biggest city. There are still a few mom-n-pop music stores in the state...at least one in each of the larger towns. My store is an auto parts store with a music department, which began in the early days of car stereo (mid '60s) and now sells mainly car stereo, CDs and some DVDs.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-13-2008, 11:21 AM:

When I purchase a CD I will immediately burn a copy of it and never play the origional again. I want to save that "master" copy in near perfect condition and I also want to save the artwork and lyrics booklet. I also casually collect local punk bands on vinyl LP and EP's and do enjoy the larger artwork that comes with them. I think both of you guys are right I think the quality of the recording and the quality of the artwork and extras were both important factors in the success of the vinyl recording format.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-13-2008, 01:31 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Uh, Bobby, I remember the '70s well. I was there, dude.

Are you assuming I wasn't? Most music I bought from the late 1970's through mid 1980's was in the form of vinyl LPs.

quote: Mike Blakesley
You are turned on by a fancy package -- there's nothing wrong with that. But the vast majority of people today don't give two shits about the packaging.

If that's really the case then there really is absolutely no value at all in any tangible music CD product. Why even sell CDs at all? The point really boils down to that.

I don't believe a red book CD in a plain jewel case (with a small brochure that passes for a booklet tucked inside) is worth $15-$20 anymore. It's hardly even worth $10-$15 now. Other competing forms of entertainment have lots of product placed in that price range. That competition is more sophisticated. The Red Book music CD format won't die out since the discs can be played on so many different devices. But I wouldn't be surprised to see it disappear as a sell through medium within the next few years.

The music industry has to bring more to the table to gain my interest. Otherwise I'll probably just do like so many others are doing: only download one or two songs from that performer and just leave it at that. I think music oriented DVDs have more value. Blu-ray has a great deal of potential as a music oriented format.

quote: Mike Blakesley
Oh, to answer your question - no, there's not an fye anywhere near here or even in this state, to my knowledge. But anyone who buys their music without price-shopping is just asking to be raped at the cash register.

I provided fye as an example of showing how more than a few national retailers charge full MSRP and even sometimes above that for music CDs as well as DVDs and especially Blu-ray discs. That doesn't mean I buy anything there. But apparently enough people do to keep the doors of those places open. The fye store in our mall is charging as much as $39.99 for single disc movies on Blu-ray. Sometimes I'll visit the store for a good laugh. Later on I'll actually order what I want from Amazon.

quote: Sean McKinnon
When I purchase a CD I will immediately burn a copy of it and never play the origional again.

I often do that as well -if the CD will let me. Some music CDs are copy protected or just won't load normally in a personal computer.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-13-2008, 01:37 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Are you assuming I wasn't?

How should I know? I have no idea how old you are. But from your post, I didn't think you realized that I've been in the music business for a long time. I'm a geezer in that business.

You say a CD isn't worth $10 to $15 anymore. Why is that? Even in the waning days of the LP, records sold for $9.98 (list) and didn't have near the advantages the CD does, and that was over 20 years ago! So what should it be worth? It doesn't matter what the answers are...there is no way it can compete with the "free" model, or the 99¢ per song model either, for that matter.

It is a shame that the "album" as an art form is going to be dead pretty soon, if it isn't already.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-13-2008, 07:05 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
How should I know? I have no idea how old you are. But from your post, I didn't think you realized that I've been in the music business for a long time. I'm a geezer in that business.

You're not the only person I'm speaking to in this thread. I listed some of the nice bonuses that came with vinyl LPs mainly for the benefit of others reading this thread who were too young to have been able to buy vinyl LPs.

quote: Mike Blakesley
You say a CD isn't worth $10 to $15 anymore. Why is that?

Because the CD in its current, standard design and packaging is obsolete. That type of product is not keeping up with the times and responding to all sorts of new competition. It was state of the art 25 years ago. The CD is an antique now -ironically a "digital antique."

Why should I buy an entire CD album anymore? Why do I need to buy a disc that probably has only 3 or 4 good songs at most and another several tracks of filler? What is the music industry going to do to make that CD a bit more special to own versus cherry picking the best songs out of it via iTunes? It's not enough anymore to just stick a pretty photo under the front of the jewel case and a regular disc inside.

The very derivative, uninspired nature of so much popular music these days sours the deal further. And even worse, the audio is frequently engineered very poorly. I used to blast the crappy nature of severely compressed MP3 and iTunes audio files. But when the retail store CD doesn't sound any better due to its waveforms being all clipped to hell just to make the disc louder, it just makes the argument against buying CDs even more persuasive. Going further, online outlets like iTunes are offering more and more music in the form of lossless compressed files.

10,000 Days by Tool was a decent CD with innovative packaging (even though I had some issues with it). I applauded Nine Inch Nails and others who tried using the Dual Disc format (sandwiching CD and DVD layers back to back). I also think it's great performers like Neil Young are getting behind Blu-ray and using it as a means of distributing high resolution audio. They're not going about things in business as usual manner. In doing so, they're more likely to attract my attention and the dollars out of my wallet.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-13-2008, 08:17 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Why should I buy an entire CD album anymore? Why do I need to buy a disc that probably has only 3 or 4 good songs at most and another several tracks of filler? What is the music industry going to do to make that CD a bit more special to own versus cherry picking the best songs out of it via iTunes? It's not enough anymore to just stick a pretty photo under the front of the jewel case and a regular disc inside.

OK. So let's solve this problem.

1. We know that most people don't care about the packaging, so it does very little good to spend a lot of money on it, even though you might think that's a good reason to buy a CD. (Besides, I've seen plenty of very good packages recently. I've already listed improvements that have been made in a previous post, which you must have missed.)

2. We know that more and more people are going to download the hit singles and ignore the rest, no matter how good or bad it is.

3. And finally, there is no way to quantify what a "good" song is. There are hundreds of huge hit albums where every song is a piece of crap to me, but are gigantic sellers, so somebody must like them. I am sure every artist who puts out a record thinks he's done 13 or 15 'good' songs and three or four 'great' ones, which hopefully will become hits.

So given the above, what exactly is the industry supposed to do to make the CD better and stop its slide into oblivion? Remember, you have to please everyone, not just yourself, and the record company and the artist still need to make some profit.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-13-2008, 10:32 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
So given the above, what exactly is the industry supposed to do to make the CD better and stop its slide into oblivion?

Very obviously, continuing to do the same thing that's been done for the past 20+ years isn't working anymore. I think it's time for the industry to offer some other choices in retail.

Damn near everyone has a DVD player. Despite the flaws in the Dual Disc format, it was a very good idea. Over the years, I've been buying more in the way of concert video discs and music video discs. What's wrong with having a disc loaded with the CD quality music only stuff along with some other content that is exclusive to that disc only?

Right now, CDs have little if any exclusive content on them. A collection of CDs can take up quite a bit of space. If you're not getting any unique content on those discs you're going to do yourself a favor by just downloading and storing the data on a hard drive.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-13-2008, 11:51 PM:

Yeah but then you don't get the packaging at all! You've come full circle, man.