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quote:Thats US$2.47/gal at todays exchange rate. I'm ashamed to admit I actually paid that much yesterday. $10 bought me one day's worth of gas.
Up here, 91 cents a litre.
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I'm seeing into the future (Yes I can! Ok, maybe not...)and although Gerald's post is quite harmless I'm waiting for someone else to comment on it. Just a warning! Say what your gas prices are or I'm sure Brad, Joe, Daryl, or Adam will close this topic. We already had a gas price thread in the political forum that got out of hand and closed.
quote:Gasoline at US stations is available usually in grades of 87 octane, 89 octane, & 91 octane. Some stations' premium is 93 octane.
What is the difference between regular, mid-grade and premium in the US? Here we have normal unleaded (95 RON) and super unleaded (98 RON). There is also 'Lead Replacement Petrol' (LRP), which is 98 RON but with a synthetic compound added for use in older cars which still have soft valve seats (lead in petrol is now illegal under European Union law). Normal unleaded is the equivalent of $1.15-20 per litre and Diesel around $1.20-25, while super and LRP are $1.30 plus.
I don't know what proportion of petrol engined cars used super. I would guess it's quite small, because I certainly don't know anyone whose car needs it.
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with a stick. Early ones were infamous for a problem which plaqued many cars of the early catalytic converter era - they'd clog up & just stop. Again, the repair would cost almost as much as for what you could buy another!
quote:Where I live the major brands have their octane at 87 regular, 89 mid-grade and 93 premium. Sunoco Ultra has 94 octane -- the highest you can legally buy.
Gasoline at US stations is available usually in grades of 87 octane, 89 octane, & 91 octane. Some stations' premium is 93 octane.
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Of course, you know the oil companies are going to "get even" with him.
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quote:Link to article.
Oil prices rise to one-year highs
World oil prices have risen to one-year highs due to continuing concerns about the lack of stocks in the US, and instablity in major producer Venezuela. During trading in New York on Monday, the price of Brent crude gained $1.11 a barrel to $33.34.
The rise has been fuelled by a report last week that the US was not storing enough oil ahead of the peak summer period when many drivers hit the roads. It also comes after Venezuela said it might stop supplies to America.
Continuing pressures
That threat was made by embattled Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez, who has accused the US of supporting his protesting political opposition. The combination of factors are forcing prices up; despite reassurances from Saudi Arabia, the world's largest oil exporter, that it would ensure adequate oil supplies.
Saudi Arabia did not comment on whether it wanted the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec) to call off plans to cut output next month if prices remain high, itself another upward pressure. Concerns the US is not stockpiling up enough oil comes from official figures from the US government's Energy Information Administration (EIA).
Last week it warned that American oil stocks are at an almost historic low, and stores of gasoline and other oil-based products have also declined.
Stability plea
The findings of the EIA shocked the markets because at this time of year the US normally builds up its stocks ahead of the high-use period in the summer, when Americans take to the road for their holidays. "The ongoing low level of US fuel supplies and strong demand combined with fears of Venezuelan supplies... sent prices higher," said Barclays Capital analyst Kevin Norrish.
Saudi Arabia oil minister Ali al-Nuaimi said: "It is extremely important the international oil market, certainly the consuming countries, will always feel that the major producers are constantly in dialogue to make sure that supply is sufficient, that there are no shortages." He added: "And it is extremely important that the market remains stable."
quote:You have my sympathy. We have the highest petrol/gas prices in the developed world by a significant margin (though some other European Union countries run us pretty close). They're heading towards $7 a gallon, some 82% of which is tax. It's taking all the self-control I can muster not to start making political remarks about that...
What makes Hawaii's gas prices the highest in the country is the state and county tax.
quote:First of all, do you attribute 100% of your car expenses to your home/work commute?
I am spending about $3,500 per year on my car without making car payments. How long can I do this before negating the $50,000 price advantage on my house?
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quote:What makes you think that the price of oil is likely to go up that much in the short term? Agreed entirely that the price of oil affects the price of everything (all goods and people are moved by burning it, and virtually all services are provided by burning it). But you're suggesting that a virtual doubling of the oil price is imminent. Sure, it's crept up a bit recently; but (in Britain at least) there are no signs that it's about to go up that much.
We are probably going to see 3 bucks a gallon, so get used to it.
quote:Well, lets see....$30.00 divided by 13 gallons = $2.30 a gallon. As I said before, it is going to happen, so deal with it.
LOS ANGELES, March 5 — "This is killing me," Bob Sherwood, an electrician who spends a lot of time on the road, said on Friday at a Santa Monica gas station after paying $30 to pump 13 gallons of gasoline into his '71 GMC truck.
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quote:Someone thought of that here, too. A couple of years ago the bogies arrested five motorists for doing exactly that in an attempt to evade paying fuel duty. The smell was what caught them.
Some time ago, a bunch of college kids modified a Diesel engine to burn McDonald's french fry oil. Sure, it smelled like a french fry when it was tooling down the road, but who cares? The fuel was free.
quote:Link to story.
Police impound cars run on cooking oil
Police in west Wales have taken action against five drivers in one day for using vehicles run on cooking oil as part of a clampdown on the illegal practice. The motorists were stopped under new legislation which makes it an offence to use the oil as an alternative fuel without paying a fuel tax levy.
It has been reported that a growing number of motorists are using the ordinary frying pan oil in their diesel engines to cut costs. But such drivers face having their vehicles impounded if they do not pay a fine of £500 and persistent offenders face up to seven years in jail.
The legal problem is, that by using 32p-a-litre cooking oil instead of petrol costing around 73p a litre, they are not paying fuel tax. But they are committing an offence because all cars on public roads must pay fuel tax - and cooking oil is not taxed.
Officers have launched a crackdown in areas and it is reported that six drivers were arrested and questioned at Burry Port. The Automobile Association (AA) has warned that cost-conscious motorists could be storing up trouble for themselves.
Oil fumes
"It could severely damage your vehicle if you do not follow the manufacturers instructions about which fuel to use," a spokesman said. Traffic police - dubbed "frying squad" officers - are sniffing out the tax dodgers because the fumes smell like chips cooking.
One driver, who did not want to be named, said: "I've halved my motoring costs since I started running my diesel Subaru on cooking oil. The car runs just as well and even smells a lot better than diesel." The motorist was one of dozens who have had their cars impounded in the crackdown.
He said: "I was stopped by an unmarked car which had blue lights flashing. The officer went to the fuel tank, dipped it, and found cooking oil. "I put my hands up to the offence and the car was towed away. They said Customs would be notified."
Legal powers given to the Customs and Excise mean that drivers are being forced to hand over £650 to get their vehicles back. They can be fined £500 for using illegal fuel and charged a £150 towing fee.
More sold
A Dyfed-Powys Police spokesman denied earlier reports that six drivers had been arrested in the crackdown. "It is part of our spot stop-and-check fuel strategy to catch offenders dodging fuel taxes."
One supermarket in Llanelli confirmed it sold more cooking oil than any other branch in the country. Asda spokeswoman Rachel Fellows said: "We have to admit we do sell a lot of cooking oil at our Llanelli store, but anyone seen attempting to wipe out our stock with bulk purchases would be stopped."
Customs and Excise spokesman Bill O'Leary said: "All cars on public roads must pay a tax on the fuel they use. "Evasion is a criminal offence and carries a maximum seven-year jail term."
Of course we saw what had been the cheapest thus far at $1.71 and filled up the tank - the next town over was $1.61!
quote:You still don't have to use higher octane gasoline with most modern OEM, hotrod or bolt-on jobs which still have knock sensors & microprocessor control of spark advance. You can run them on the cheapest stuff & it'll just dial back until there's no detonation.
Why people use 93 I'll never fully understand - unless, of course, you're running a built head with a little higher compression ratio
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I got used to it in the end .
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It has been 381 days since the last post.
. SoCal is now home to the most expensive fuel on the US Mainland.
Everything has to fit my Honda Element or else . I am afraid to give estimated freight costs due to fuel surcharges
quote: Richard FowlerWe always tack on a fuel surcharge when this happens but the Honda Element seems like a good idea..... The lathe and arbor press would have to be left back in the shop though!
Everything has to fit my Honda Element or else
I was in Brazil a few years ago and driving though corn fields for several hours with a tech. He said it was grown for fuel and mixed 10 to 15% with regular fuel to save costs. His car was set up for it and was saving him considerable money in his travels......his service territory was about the size of Texas.
quote: John WalshDiesel's been higher for over a year now. Big trucks use a lot of it. I go through about 100 gallons a day.
And what's this with diesel? I thought it was supposed to be cheaper (less refining) but it costs almost as much as gas.
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quote:What was your cost for the conversion? Is it difficult to find places for passenger cars to fuel with LPG? How does the fuel mileage differ?
Boy am I glad I took the plunge and had my car converted to run on LPG (Autogas) last autumn!
quote: William HooperThis is the same LPG campers use to run stoves right?
Maybe Tim has an observation about the apparent availability of LPG filling stations.
quote: William HooperThe conversion cost just over £1,100. I started to seriously investigate the idea after a friend had her car done by this place, about 20 miles up the road from me. I haven't done the MPG sums, but the average cost per mile for my car (Ford Mondeo Zetec 2.0 litre) at the time I converted and based on 80p a litre of petrol/gasoline was 10.2p. On LPG at 37.9p a litre, the per mile cost is 5.9p. That works out at a 42% fuel cost saving per mile after the conversion. The MPG is about 15-20% lower for LPG than for petrol (at a rough guess I was getting 37ish on petrol and am getting 30-32 on LPG), but the litre for litre cost differential is about half.
What was your cost for the conversion? Is it difficult to find places for passenger cars to fuel with LPG? How does the fuel mileage differ?
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quote: Adam Wilbert..and I'll start:
we should also post our average MPG here
quote: Gracia L. BabbidgeDoes it have an additional resistance heater to speed heat output?
My '93 Subaru Legacy (wagon) gets about 25 miles per gallon.
Running with the heat or the AC on drops it down to about 20-21 mpg.
quote: Leo EnticknapIn the half of NZ I live in, new cars here are more rare than in the UK, we mostly buy second hand motors imported by the roro ferryload from Japan. I've not seen any advertising for LPG cars though.
Does NZ have a lot more cars being sold with factory-installed LPG kits (here this isn't standard on any production car, and is only a factory option on a small number of models) rather than retrofitted ones, which account for most of Britain's LPG vehicles?
quote: Bill EnosYes, and I've been checked for that, too. Revenue agents randomly setup at scale houses and take samples. They're serious. Fortunately, I always fuel at the chain truck stops on a company card, so I can only get the green stuff.
cheat the govt. a little you can use #2 furnace fuel which in much of the U.S. is the same as diesel. It has red dye though so if you get caught with it in a vehicle tank you'll be screwed.
at a resort station.
quote: Leo EnticknapLeo, I sure hope that typical wages there are correspondingly elevated.
A litre of unleaded was..(equivalent to ...$5.85 per US gallon)
They're in such high demand on the used market that used ones with low miles can be sold for more than new ones. Apparently there are people who latch onto a new Prius, drive it for a few thousand miles, then sell it used at a tidy profit.
It's sad considering that's what filling a Suburban cost a few years ago probably. I'm in the market for a new/used car now so I'll definitely be paying attention to the MPG issue.
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quote: Leo EnticknapThis is just smoke and mirrors. Fahd has been on his deathbed since his stroke in 1995, and all of a sudden prices jump the day he dies. Tell me that wasn't planned. Same thing about Iran, all smoke and mirrors there too.
Light sweet crude hit a record high of $62.47 in New York this morning, so sez BBC Radio, amid worries that King Fahd's death and the Iranian nuclear issue could disrupt supplies.
quote: Paul MayerUntil Nevada finds out there is an untapped "pool" (no pun intended) of money they're missing out on. Yeah for state government!
Better than 100mpg, 30mph top speed, street legal, no registration or insurance required.
quote: Bobby HendersonMe too.
I've been swearing for months...
quote: Pete Naples37.2 at my local Morrison's, but the average is more like 40. I've noticed two new filling stations (Asda in York and a place in a village on the A59) have installed LPG pumps in the last month.
I'm glad I run my Range Rover on LPG which has remained at £.40/litre or even lower in places.
quote: Pete NaplesAn increase in energy taxation is really an increase in direct taxation in all but name. As far as road fuel goes, even if you don't drive yourself you will buy goods which have been delivered by lorry and you will buy the services of people who have to drive to work.
Governments who build their countries economic system on taxes raised in the name of environmental protection are what pushes up prices. [...] Randy, the treasuries are rubbing their hands every time that Hummer fills up.
quote: Pete NaplesI'm not entirely sure I agree there: burning fossil fuel energy is something which is essential for survival in a developed world country: so if the price goes up (either due to market forces or taxation), people are going to cut back on other sorts of consumer spending. For example, now that gas price increases have put a tenner or so on my quarterly bill, I'm going to find that money by not going to the pub one night or not buying a book or a DVD or two: I won't be finding it by letting the flat go cold in winter. Likewise, I have to get to work, so if the price of LPG goes up, I'll just have to pay it and cut back on non-essential spending. So the state continues to get its cut: though granted, it may then lose some of that in the form of lower VAT on other spending.
It's somewhat short sighted, ok when you price fuel out of the reach of all but the rich, what happens? All that revenue ceases pouring into the states coffers, and the house of cards built on it collapses.
quote: Pete NaplesAgreed entirely. If it's agreed that tobacco is an unacceptably destructive drug, why faff around with a taxation system to offset the financial cost of its health effects and silly laws that ban you from smoking in pubs, apart from those which don't serve food; and just outlaw the stuff? Probably because that would be a hellish difficult law to enforce: people would just smuggle tobacco in from Europe, just as they smuggled booze across the border from Canada when the United States bought in prohibition in the '20s. But even so, there are obviously double standards going on.
It's the same reason they don't really want you to give up smoking and drinking.
quote: Pete NaplesWhat happens is "demand destruction" and is a necessary step towards balancing the supply side and the demand side. Prior to that happening there will be lots of people for whom the choice will be fuel or food, and once they cant afford fuel they cant get to work. As usual, it is those with least money upon whom this will fall the hardest and the soonest.
... treasuries are rubbing their hands every time that Hummer fills up. It's somewhat short sighted, ok when you price fuel out of the reach of all but the rich, what happens?
quote:Looks like you answered your own question.
Why should some asshole be allowed to use FIVE TIMES MORE GAS than me and get away with it, simply because he can afford it!?
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). So I'd have had to save that by cutting back on leisure spending. quote: Leo EnticknapHere's what all the money chasing MBAs don't want people to mention: many millions of Americans are paying their bills with borrowed money and equity cashed out of their homes. The pricing structure of our economy has very wrongfully changed to assume that money is real income when it is extremely the reverse. People in the United States now have the lowest level of savings since the Great Depression.
To be honest I can't really work out why higher fuel prices don't seem to have hit other sectors of the economy. People only earn so much, and if they are pouring a higher proportion of it into their cars, then surely they must be spending less elsewhere.
), $2.559/gallon. Guess I won't be filling up here...
quote: Bobby HendersonIt made the news earlier this year when Britain's total consumer debt busted the £1 trillion mark. Savings have also slumped. The reasons given for this vary. Opponents of the present government point to a big increase on the taxation on personal pensions introduced when it came to power in 1997, while others point to lower stock market returns (especially after the dot com bubble burst in 2000) and higher property prices encouraging people to regard their house as their retirement fund.
Here's what all the money chasing MBAs don't want people to mention: many millions of Americans are paying their bills with borrowed money and equity cashed out of their homes. [...] People in the United States now have the lowest level of savings since the Great Depression.
quote: Bobby HendersonThis is where the difference comes, I think, although it's true that mortgage lending has gone up. It used to be said that a sensible level of mortgage lending was three times someone's annual income. Well, a very basic one-bedroom apartment in my neighbourhood costs 5-6 times my annual income. Unless there's a crash, there's no way I could ever afford to buy: and if there is a crash, the economy will be so well and truly sodomised that I will probably no longer have a job to pay the mortgage with! But I think that the house price increases here are supported by real money: money which has flowed out of the stock market and other forms of investment over the last 7-9 years and into residential property. The problem is that this shift seriously damaged our manufacturing industry (albeit indirectly) and locked those of my generation, and the one behind me, which don't have the capital to invest in the first place, out of the market.
The insane run up in home prices is largely due to speculators trading property like they were trading baseball cards. Truly, prices in most markets in the United States are hyper-inflated far beyond what the market would actually bear if we were talking about mortgages supported by real income.
quote: Bobby HendersonAgreed totally, and one thing I don't hear talked about is that the era of low interest rates is making that worse. During the last housing boom and bust of the late '80s/early '90s, interest rates were running at the 10-15% mark. So the real value of people's mortgages relative to their income was being eroded year by year. Now that rates are pretty much stable in the 3-5% bracket, they aren't. The average Brit's mortgage payment, especially for those who bought during the recent boom, is likely to be a higher proportion of their real income for a lot longer.
The pricing structure of our economy has very wrongfully changed to assume that money is real income when it is extremely the reverse.
quote: Bobby HendersonThat's what happened in the early '90s here, which ushered the term 'negative equity' (mortgage value exceeding market value of property) into the dictionary. The big fear is, of course, of this happening again. The housing market is in a bit of a 'phoney war' at the moment: prices are effectively static, but, worryingly, the number of properties changing hands is plummeting. Because, as yet, unemployment hasn't risen significantly (we avoided a recession, unlike most other European markets, because of a healthy consumer and service sector), so people don't need to move. So if they're not getting what they're asking for their houses, they're just not selling. But if, for whatever reason, these people are forced to sell, then it logically follows that the UK economy will go TU very quickly.
Our whole damned economy is effectively on a credit card. It's going to be ugly when that housing market bubble pops. You're going to see lots of people "upside down" owing a lot more money than their house is actually worth.
quote: Bobby HendersonEspecially since it's reported that the supply problem is caused by limited refining capacity, not limited crude availability. If anything I'd have thought that should push the cost of crude down, since there's no point in buying it if you then have to store it for a long time before it can be processed.
Speculation, rather than market reality, has pushed oil to very wrong, over priced levels.
quote: Leo EnticknapThe reason is people are spending out all their home equity. Their houses rise in value on paper, but those folks are spending it all in real cash. Speculators keep on pushing housing prices farther and father into the stratosphere and the average American is spending the cash like a junky hooked on heroin. They just can't stop.
But, mortgage lending aside, I just can't figure out why this credit-led spending binge has gone on for so long and shows no sign of slowing.
quote: Leo EnticknapI went for a mortgage this past April and that is the general rule the realtor used for me when I first began to look at some properties. In my neck of the woods you can find a solid home in a nice neighborhood with a good school for under $100,000. My mortgage is only $50 more than what I was paying to rent, so we're not seeing the mind-numbing increases that folks in other parts (albeit more wealthier parts) of the nation are seeing. I paid about 130% of my yearly gross income for a ranch-style home approximately 40 - 45 years old. The interest rate on my loan is 5.25%. I believe that what I got for the price paid was well worth it.
It used to be said that a sensible level of mortgage lending was three times someone's annual income
quote: Bobby Henderson. . . and has been since the early 1990's. When I first started working for pay on a local farm at age 14 my parents required me to put 80% of my net in the bank. This soon built up a small nest egg that actually helped bridge the gap between what my college loans paid out and the actual tuition of the college I attended. Friends and co-workers were very suprised at this. So to were some adults and even an economics teacher at my high school. People somehow believed that by sacrificing myself from the newest fashions or latest CD I wasn't the "normal" kid. Not to be political, but when the Treasury Department sent me my $300 refund after the Bush election, mine went into the bank where it still sits today. I think the two biggest reasons why nobody saves today like in past generations is:
People in the United States now have the lowest level of savings since the Great Depression.
quote: Bobby Henderson....like those self destructing little lemmings heading out to sea when jumping over the cliff.
"....and the average American is spending the cash like a junky hooked on heroin. They just can't stop."
quote: Ian PriceCreamier?
$2.79 Creamier
quote: Ian PriceDigital?
$2.89 Digital or Turbo, I'm not sure
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quote: Bobby HendersonTime to bust out the wallet for the bike, Bobby!
I've been swearing for months that if gasoline hit $2.50 per gallon I was going to buy a bicycle and start using that for my 6-mile each way commute.
I may have to make good on that promise soon.
quote: CNN.com
(CNN) -- Gas prices surged 20 cents over the past three weeks to an all-time high of $2.50 per gallon of self-serve regular, according to a national survey.
quote:Yes, it is just about time. And I have been browsing through some bicycle web sites to familiarize myself with what's good, bad and "good enough."
Time to bust out the wallet for the bike, Bobby!
quote: Floyd Justin NewtonBe interested to hear who you think the greedy are...?
Folks, this is GREED in action
quote: Robert BurtcherI'm sorry Robert, but I must disagree. On the surface that is a compelling arguement and deserves some merit, however, prices would still rise even if our refining capabilities were up to speed with usage. True, things must be improved, and I'm all for building new refineries, yet Big Oil will continue to sock it to the public by claiming construction costs or infrastructure development as in the case of ANWR. The fact is we are stoaking a fire that is about to burn out of control, but there is nothing we can do to contain things.
The main problem that is causing gasoline prices to skyrocket in the US actually has to do with our refining capacity.
quote: Bob MaarJEEZ! This is insane.
Brooklyn..Gulf Premium $355
quote: Leo EnticknapThere is already a scheme like this in some British cities.
I'm sure that a scheme like that would be very popular in a number of British cities, where the cost of running a car is much greater than in suburbs or rural areas.
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quote: Jon MillerEven if it could be refined it won't make fuel any less expensive since nobody expects they'll be able to "repay" that oil reserve with less expensive oil in the future.
It's unfortunate that even though President Bush has authorized the release of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserves, there's no place to refine the oil with fifteen or so Gulf Coast refineries shut down due to the Hurricane Katrina disaster. Alas, no fuel to fill the tankers.
quote: David StambaughNot just gas...all retail operates that way.
If you know you're gonna pay more for the next load, you raise your price now to cover it. Gas stations have always operated that way.
quote: Darryl SpicerSo do I, but what if your plate ends in a "J" like mine does?
I remember the odd and even days when your last plate number decided when you could fill your tank.
What can you do. On days I don't have to do the deposit or pick up film I might just start riding my bike to work.
quote:So Tim, are you seeing a domino effect for you drivers hauling commodies in having to charge more to the sellers to where they'll have to raise prices to compensate them, then wages will have to increase to compensate the actual customer, then the customers are ready to leap over the cliff like those lemmings do due to a sudden madness attack?
I got 170 gallons of diesel in Massachusetts yesterday... the bill was almost $500!
quote: Monte L FullmerI'm guessing it's because gasoline is becoming more valuable so the refineries are producing more gasoline per barrel of oil at the expense of diesel thus lowering the supply of diesel (and increasing the price).
Also, why has diesel suddenly become the most expensive fuel, to where many moons ago it was the cheapest
quote: Monte L FullmerAh, my youth revisited.....
converting 350CID engines to run diesel on a quick design (and not changing the cam drive chain to handle the extreme cylinder pressure, thus busting cams like toothpicks) in the early 80's?
quote:Whaddya know Dave, I paid just that for premium in Midland last night. $115 to fill my car... yippee! I think I'll go back to driving my SUV (just for Randy!
Is it really $1.60 a litre in Hamilton? I may fill up a few drums and open up a bootleg fillin' station!
) which gets better gas millage and can currently be filled for $75.quote: Lyle RomerThis is supposed to be behind fears of a short-term aviation fuel shortage, too: basically, refineries can expect to sell gasoline for roughly twice as much as jet fuel, so they're concentrating production on gasoline. If a jet fuel shortage does actually happen, then presumably the law of supply and demand will sort out the imbalance.
I'm guessing it's because gasoline is becoming more valuable so the refineries are producing more gasoline per barrel of oil at the expense of diesel thus lowering the supply of diesel (and increasing the price).
quote: Dave WilliamsI guess I am paranoid also, I refill about every other day. I would also rather just put in 10-15 bucks in a few times a week instead of 50-60 bucks in at a time. That just seems not quite as much to me, for some strange reason.
Or maybe I am just paranoid, or crazy... could be possible.
quote: Louis Bornwasser(I'll help the newbies on this one. LL=Low Lead 100 octane)
100LL aviation fuel in Louisville: 2.89
100LL aviation fuel in Florida: 4.89 Louis
), so any extra savings is worth it. Most gas companies also have rewards cards for 5% back or so on their own brand, but then you are restricted to buying from them.
quote:
BERLIN, Germany (Reuters) -- A German inventor said he has developed a method to produce crude oil products from waste that he believes can be an answer to the soaring costs of fuel, but denied a German newspaper story implying he also used dead cats.
Christian Koch, an inventor and patent holder of the "KDV 500" that he said produces high quality fuel, said he can transform waste products such as paper, rubbish and plastic materials into fuel.
But Koch, 55, said there was no truth to stories published in Bild newspaper on Tuesday and Wednesday that suggested he used dead cats as part of the mix for his organic diesel fuel.
"I use paper, plastics, textiles and rubbish," Koch told Reuters.
"It's an alternative fuel that is friendly for the environment. But it's complete nonsense to suggest dead cats. I've never used cats and would never think of that. At most the odd toad may have jumped in."
Bild on Tuesday wrote a headline: "German inventor can turn cats into fuel -- for a tank he needs 20 cats." The paper on Wednesday followed up with a story entitled: "Can you really make fuel out of cats?"
A spokesman for Bild told Reuters the story was meant to show that cat remains could "in theory" be used to make fuel with Koch's patented method.
The author of the story said Koch had never told him directly that he had used dead cats as the story implied.
The Web site of Koch's firm, "Alphakat GmbH", says his patented "KDV 500" machine can produce what he calls the "bio-diesel" fuel at about 23 euro cents (30 cents) a liter, which is about one-fifth the price at petrol stations now.
"I drive my normal diesel-powered car with this mixture," Koch is quoted saying in Bild, next to a large picture of a kitten. "I have gone 170,000 km (106,000 miles) without a problem."
quote: BERLIN, Germany (Reuters)That is an outrageous lie! Below is a photo of Koch's son, Kelvin, collecting a dead cat for his father's car.
But Koch, 55, said there was no truth to stories published in Bild newspaper on Tuesday and Wednesday that suggested he used dead cats as part of the mix for his organic diesel fuel.
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all of us
quote:Approximately 82% of what you pay at the petrol station is tax. The fattest cat of all, Gordon Brown, benefits far more than the oil companies. Intensive R & D in alternative 'carbon neutral' energy sources and more fuel-efficient vehicles are the answer here, not jumping on the trendy environmentalist bandwagon and labelling all car owners as evil.
Use less fuel It would be better for you & the environment, the only people who would miss out are the fat cat oil producers, who are [sex] all of us
quote: finance.canada.comA jump in profits. Who whould'a thunk.
Royal Dutch Shell posts 67 per cent jump in third-quarter net profit
Canadian Press - Thursday October 27, 2005
LONDON (AP) - Royal Dutch Shell PLC, one of the world's largest oil companies, reported a 67 per cent increase in third-quarter profit Thursday to $9.39 billion US, as soaring oil prices outweighed lost production and damage to rigs from fierce hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico.
The results compare with earnings of $5.62 billion a year earlier and were helped by a one-time gain of $1.77 billion, mainly from the sale of pipeline assets held through Gasunie NV in the Netherlands and the valuation of some U.K. gas contracts.
Revenue rose eight per cent to $76.44 billion.
CEO Jeroen van der Veer said despite the impact of the hurricanes, Shell's production outlook for 2005 is around 3.5 million barrels of oil equivalent per day. That is at the bottom end of its target laid out earlier this year.
Production from the Mars platform in the Gulf of Mexico, which suffered significant damage during hurricane Katrina, is expected to resume in the second half of 2006, the company said. The facility normally churns out around 250,000 barrels a day of crude oil and 365 million cubic feet of gas a day.
Shell said the cost of repairing hurricane damage to rigs and refineries this year and next would be about $350 million after taxes, although much of this should be covered by insurance.
Hurricane Katrina hit in late August, temporarily shutting down at least 80 per cent of Gulf crude oil and natural gas production and crippling many refineries.
Oil prices on the New York Mercantile Exchange peaked at $70.85 a barrel on Aug. 30. Hurricane Rita then followed, delaying a return to usual production.
Shell said adjusted earnings on a current cost of supplies basis - a measurement that strips out the fluctuating value of the company's oil and gas inventories - rose 68 per cent to $7.37 billion from $4.38 billion.
Shares in Royal Dutch Shell rose 1.5 per cent to 1,804 pence ($32.01) on the London Stock Exchange.
Earlier this week, BP PLC said its third-quarter profit rose 34 per cent to $6.53 billion, even as production fell two per cent because of the hurricanes. Exxon Mobil Corp. is expected to report record quarterly earnings later Thursday.
quote: David StambaughTrue, diesel is easier to "crack" than gasoline, but the demand for diesel is ten times less than the demand for gasoline. Thus, to manufacture diesel is more costly in the long run for the manufacturers who can't make a profit pricing diesel back to the glory days of 30 cents cheaper than gasoline when the demand is so low.
I don't understand diesel pricing. Diesel is easier to produce, requires less refining. It always used to be cheaper
quote: Bobby HendersonBobby,
But I wish there was the same level of anger about the uncontrolled run up on health care prices, as well as price spikes in housing and higher education. That stuff costs a lot more than gasoline.
quote: Dieter DepypereSure, 100 "Blue" is gas - just a higher octane. "Red" was the fuel that race car drivers love to use being a 108 octane so they can run almost 13/1 compression.
Aviation fuel for cars?? Does that work?
quote: Louis BornwasserI've never accidentally done that, honest!
A month ago, with auto fuel at $3.10 and 100LL at the airport at $2.89; some used aviation fuel in their cars to save money.
quote: Lyle RomerIf that was truly the case you would only see the prices rising at certain shi shi private schools. The costs are escalating far beyond the rate of inflation everywhere. Many university trustees know this very well and know the American market can't really support these huge price increases. So they're lobbying hard as hell to get as many students as possible from other countries.
You are aware that we have a capitalist economy where supply and demand determine the price? In the case of higher education it is supply/demand of quality professors which drive up their salaries which then drives up tuition.
quote: Lyle RomerIt will take a LOT more than tort reform to remedy the runaway costs happening in that sector.
Health care is the only one that is driven by something other than supply/demand. The high cost of health care is largely driven by malpractice insurance and "defensive medicine" due to ridiculous lawsuits. Real and major tort reform is the only way to bring down health care costs.
quote: Dieter DepypereI don't see that many Ford Mondeos passing overhead at 20,000 feet, so I guess not!
Aviation fuel for cars?? Does that work?
quote: Leo EnticknapI doubt that using food grade vegtable oil is much better than using the non-renewable oils once the energy used in farming, processing and transporting are taken into account.
Given that vegetable oil is renewable energy (i.e. biofuel), if I was the government I'd be encouraging the practice, not trying to stamp it out. Besides, there probably isn't enough of the stuff about to seriously dent fuel duty revenues.
quote:
Is Biodiesel the same thing as raw vegetable oil?
No! Fuel-grade biodiesel must be produced to strict industry specifications (ASTM D6751) in order to insure proper performance. Biodiesel is the only alternative fuel to have fully completed the health effects testing requirements of the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments. Biodiesel that meets ASTM D6751 and is legally registered with the Environmental Protection Agency is a legal motor fuel for sale and distribution. Raw vegetable oil cannot meet biodiesel fuel specifications, it is not registered with the EPA, and it is not a legal motor fuel.
quote: Leo EnticknapNaughty naughty. A variation on the old "drop of the red"...
A few years ago police in Wales busted a scam whereby Diesel powered cars were being run on used vegetable oil from a chain of fish & chip shops, in an attempt to avoid paying the duty on legit road fuel.
It has been 541 days since the last post.
to whoever is responsible for these insane gas prices.
. Speaking of which, why are foreign gas prices so high? Where does the extra money go?
quote: Mike HeenanMost of it is tax.
Speaking of which, why are foreign gas prices so high? Where does the extra money go?
Granted, it's in a rich-person's enclave with a high concentration of Ferraris and the like and owners who have no problem forking over that kind of cash for 100-octane gas to make their Prancing Horses gallop faster...
![[evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
quote: Jon MillerYet, what's funny is that 100 Octane stuff can be purchased out at airports cheaper since it's the same grade that light aircraft uses...the "Blue" AvGas...
forking over that kind of cash for 100-octane gas to make their Prancing Horses gallop faster...
quote: Mark GulbrandsenWOW! That is expensive...is that per gallon?
$309.9 at Maverick today
quote: Stephen FurleyNot in this neck of the woods: I'd guess it's available in about a quarter of filling stations within a 50-mile radius of York. Given that Yorkshire is pretty rural and lots of people commute relatively long distances, there's probably a bigger market for LPG than there would be in more urban areas. When I did the sums it became clear that the capital investment in the conversion (£1,200) only makes economic sense for a driver doing over 15k miles a year. The tax break means that my car costs around 6-7p a mile for fuel on LPG, rising to 11-12p when running on petrol. At that rate, the LPG conversion will cover its costs in about two years assuming 15k miles annually; but if you're doing nearer the UK average of 8-10k, you're looking at 3 to 4 years, which is longer than most people keep their cars. I've only found one garage in London near my mother's house which sells it, although I gather that there has been a surge in conversions recently, because 'alternative fuel' vehicles get a discount on the congestion charge.
Leo, do you have any problems finding fuel for it. It's not something that I'm looking out for, but I seldom seem to see LPG signs outside filling stations.
quote: Stephen FurleyYes; it'll still run on petrol. The conversion consists of a pressurised, 70-litre gas cylinder in the boot (enough gas for around 300 miles), a replacement engine management computer and a regulator/injector device which sits on the cylinder block. The LPG system has separate injectors (installing them involves drilling a hole through the engine block straight into the cylinders), but uses the same exhaust valves as when burning petrol. Because the gas burns at a significantly higher temperature than petrol, the car is started on petrol and the fuel source is switched over when a pre-set temperature is reached. This is usually around 2-3 miles after starting from cold. Apart from the routing the power supply to the existing fuel pump through the new ECU (so that it can be switched off when the fuel source is changed to LPG) the existing fuel system is untouched and it can be changed back to petrol at any time. It will also switch back automatically if you run out of gas.
Can you still use petrol as well, or will it only run on LPG now?
quote: Stephen FurleyIt's propane here, though I gather that butane is sometimes used in mainland Europe.
Liquified Petroleum Gas (Propane and Butane); I'm not sure which is used in cars, propane has a higher vapour pressure than butane, and can be used at lower temperatures.
quote: Leo Enticknap(and for us folks across the pond, the "boot" is the trunk, the "bonnet" is the hood. 70L..about 18.5 US gal)
70-litre gas cylinder in the boot
.
quote: Jeremy WeigelWell that's the worst spelling of "definitely" I've ever seen. Why does the world have such trouble with that word?
difinelty
quote: Bobby HendersonBobby, here in Edmond it's down to 2.699.
Gas prices are FINALLY falling around here. For more than a month 87 octane fuel has been up over $3.00 per gallon. The price peaked at over $3.20 in early July. It fell to $2.99 a few days ago and now rests at $2.89. Some other areas in Oklahoma are selling gas for 20 cents cheaper.
quote: Mike BlakesleySorry Mike, I must not have re-read it before hitting the "Add Reply". But I do agree, its one the most mis-spelled words.
Well that's the worst spelling of "definitely" I've ever seen. Why does the world have such trouble with that word?
quote: Jeremy WeigelThat figures.
Bobby, here in Edmond it's down to 2.699.
. I guess thats partly why they shipped twice as many projectors last year as Strong did. . Thats way more fun than the big coaster at Knotts Berry Farm! I'll be out again pretty soon.
I filled up yesterday at a station in L.A.'s San Fernando Valley and paid $3.35/gallon. My tank was nearly empty, and with an 18-gallon capacity I dropped nearly $60.00. Ouch!quote: Bobby HendersonBoth when I lived in Seattle and in Bellingham for college, Bellingham had the highest priced gas of the entire Puget Sound region despite the fact that Bellingham has an oil refinery.
Considering this is "oil country" this is supposed to be one of the least expensive places in the United States to buy gasoline.
£1.02 Per litre. Yes that is around 9.00USD per gallon us with duty. Sorry that will not work.
quote: Monte L FullmerIn the last 9 years I think I've paid cash for gas five times. Credit cards are perfect for paying for gas. It's a fairly regular expense so there's no "surprise" (as in you forgot about it) spending, it's a free month of interest on your money (assuming you're not the type to live on credit), you get to collect whatever reward you get on your credit card purchases (1% cash back, 3% GM dollars, whatever), and it's an excellent way to build and maintain a very good credit rating (assuming, again, that you're not the type to live on credit). IMNSHO, it'd be foolish not to pay for fuel and other *regular* high value expenses with a credit card. Whether paying for your irregular high value expenses with a credit card is a good idea or not is highly dependent on how well you manage money.
It's fun watching people with large, expensive rigs either shove credit cards to fill those things, or can only shove in 5 to 10 bucks of fuel since that's all the money they have and can afford.
quote: Monte L FullmerThat will not happen. Like Steve said, it's flawed logic. Many vehicles get the best mileage around 110-115km/h, which around here is 10-15km/h over the current speed limit on the largest highways.
Better watch out, going to be another speed limit reduction again like when the Embargo of 1973 and 1979 hit the USA
quote: Jonathan WorthingOr we could just drill for our own oil off the coast of Florida... like China is about to start doing. Or in Alaska. Or in any number of other places available to us. Or we could start building cars that run on sugar. That could work too.
I think we should invade a country to get there oil so we can pay under $4.00 per gallon.
quote: Steve GuttagHydrogen fuel cells would be great if we didn't have to produce the hydrogen to run them on. That problem could be alleviated by making a huge push to nuclear power for the power grid and then using excess capacity in off peak times to produce hydrogen from water.
Hydrogen fuel cells look interesting to me.
quote: David StambaughDoes Oregon allow you to pump your own gas yet? I just remember a friend living there a few years back and he was surprised that an attendant had to pump your gas for you. We haven't had attendants pump gas here in 20 years.
On my way to work this morning: $3.89 regular, $4.19 premium
quote: Anslem RayburnHell no! I doubt that will ever happen. Every few years someone in the state legislature introduces a bill to allow self-serv, but it always gets shot down.
Does Oregon allow you to pump your own gas yet?
quote: Tim ReedWhere they tend to pump the gas for you (full-serve)...so go figure.
Somewhat cheaper in Jersey.
. Tim
quote: Tim AstenPeople in most parts of the United Kingdom have alternatives to driving. Much of the UK is canvassed by rail and bus lines. I wish I could hop on a high speed commuter train to Oklahoma City or Dallas.
If you live in the US count yourselves lucky.
quote: Bobby HendersonI think 'many' rather than 'most' would be a fairer way of putting it. A friend once commented that in the cities you can't live with a car (i.e. parking it is almost impossible if you don't have a garage or off-road space attached to your residence), but outside them you can't live without one: which I think sums the situation up elegantly. The public transport within and between the major cities is relatively good, and for many city dwellers using it is probably cheaper than the total cost of owning and running a car. But there are many rural villages or even market towns which have one or two buses a day to or from the nearest major conurbation at most. If you work outside that village, you have to have a car - it's that simple. Of course it's these people who have been hit the hardest by the fuel price rises recently.
People in most parts of the United Kingdom have alternatives to driving. Much of the UK is canvassed by rail and bus lines. I wish I could hop on a high speed commuter train to Oklahoma City or Dallas.
quote: Leo EnticknapA few years ago I was looking at a bus timetable, I think it was for either Devon or Cornwall. There was one route which operated just once per month, sonething like the first Tuesday of each month, one bus in each direction. Most of the places on this route were also served by other buses, but I managed to find one village which seemed to have no other service. I'd hate to just miss the bus if I lived there.
But there are many rural villages or even market towns which have one or two buses a day to or from the nearest major conurbation at most. If you work outside that village, you have to have a car - it's that simple. Of course it's these people who have been hit the hardest by the fuel price rises recently.
quote: Stephen FurleyAnother equally infamous example is the station at Durham/Tees Valley (formerly called just Teesside) Airport. Apparently the station was put there in the '70s when plans existed to build a new terminal building right next to it. This never happened, and the existing terminal building is about a mile away (the station is at one end of the runway, the terminal at the other). So it's completely useless for passengers. However, in order to actually close down a station you have to get an act of Parliament and jump through lots of other legal hoops. In order for a station to legally remain open, at least one passenger train has to stop there each week. Network Rail doesn't want the expense and hassle of going through the closure procedure, and so every Saturday morning, one Darlington to Middlesbrough train stops at the airport station. No-one gets on or off, and then the train goes on its way again. Meanwhile, a free bus from Darlington station (on the main line) takes people who actually want to get to the airport without driving there.
There is also an infamous railway line in England, near Manchester, which used to have a proper service, but something like fifteen or twenty years ago almost all of the service was diverted onto a different line.
quote: Stephen FurleyAnd also extra adults. I reckon that if one person travels from York to London (for example), the difference between the cost of the petrol and a rail ticket is not much. But if you've got three or four people going, then you're looking at £50 for the petrol or £250 for train tickets.
There is another factor which I think can swing the advantage heavily in favour of the car, and that is the addition of one or more babies or small children; something which doesn't apply in my case.
quote: Bobby HendersonI just saw something about this on the news last night. They were saying there is only one high speed train in the US. They were talking about the decaying train tracks all over the country and the lack of infrastructure for train travel as an alternative.
There are few regions in the US where one can use mass transit exclusively to travel short and medium distances. Most places in this country give you only one choice: hop in your vehicle and drive.
quote: Leo EnticknapIt's rather different with adults, where it's normally just an economic issue; you get a large 'quantity discount' when you transport several people by car. With babies and young children they will probably go free, or at low cost, but you've got the bother of getting them, plus buggies, supplies of nappies, feeding equipment, toys etc. onto and off buses or trains, up and down footbridge stairs while trying to make sure that those old enough to walk don't wander off on their own. Adults, except in certain cases of disability, can generally get themselves, along with any luggage, shopping etc. on and off.
And also extra adults. I reckon that if one person travels from York to London (for example), the difference between the cost of the petrol and a rail ticket is not much. But if you've got three or four people going, then you're looking at £50 for the petrol or £250 for train tickets.
quote: Mike BlakesleyI believe there are plans for a high speed line in CA, but the Acela is only Boston-Washington D.C. I've seen it at Newark, but never been on it. It generally seems to be carrying a fair number of people when I've seen it, maybe three quarters full, but it's expensive. and not very fast; there's only a small part of the journey where it runs at its maximum speed.
The high-speed train is the Amtrak Acela which is only in the East, I think. (Could be wrong on that.)
quote: Scott JentschAnyone remember the early 90's movie Singles? This was what the main character was trying to tell the city officials in the movie. He had come up with a mass transit train idea and they shot it down saying people loved their cars too much. Fast forward 15 years to now and that same plot may not work in the film. With gas prices so high many people would opt for a train rather than their cars especially when you can leave home for work later because there is no traffic to contend with.
I would have to think that even if just a miniscule portion of that $1.9 billion were used to improve that line and encouraging people to use it for commuting and travel, maybe we wouldn't need those extra lanes after all.
quote: Mark HajduckiSay what? Are you referring to sabatoge?
was shutdown for 48 hours due to industrial action.
quote: Paul TurnerSeveral weeks ago I saw a story on the TV news about a guy here in Northern California who was doing this. Seemed like a good idea at the time.
Is anyone running a diesel engine on waste vegetable oil?
quote: Claude S. AyakawaInteresting that prices in Hawaii are the same as some places on the US mainland. I'd have thought that the cost of shipping the stuff out into the middle of the Pacific from distribution points on the mainland would instantly whack a significant amount on the retail price. Is it subsidised in any way?
I am now paying $3.85 a gallon for premium gas and by summer, prices here in Honolulu should exceed $4.00.
quote: Mark GulbrandsenGranted, it is the best way to go, but with N/G conversions like this, isn't the tank supposed to be externally mounted on or at the end the vehicle?
....the best route to go is still to convert your car to burn Natural Gas...
The gas company !
quote: Bobby HendersonI know the point you are making but you shouldn't have to make 3x the income to offset a 3x increase in gas. If your gas spending was 10% of your spending (when it was 1/3 the price), if you are still spending the same on everything else gas will now be 25% of your spending and your total spending is now 20% higher. Theoretically you would need to increase your income 20% to offset this assuming you were spending everything you earned before. If you were saving before, you now are saving less.
This morning our prices jumped from $3.64 per gallon to $3.79 per gallon. I know I'm not making 3 times as much money as I was in 2001.
quote: Lyle RomerNo one is paying the same for everything else.
I know the point you are making but you shouldn't have to make 3x the income to offset a 3x increase in gas. If your gas spending was 10% of your spending (when it was 1/3 the price), if you are still spending the same on everything else gas will now be 25% of your spending and your total spending is now 20% higher.
quote: Bobby HendersonYou hit the nail on the head here. The issue is how to solve the oil price issue. The problem is that even though there are many oil companies, the oil industry operates like a monopoly. It doesn't matter who pumps the oil out of the ground, the price is the same. It's kind of the same with farming except with food there isn't the fear that it will run out one day so the prices don't get artificially high (except when corn is used to make fuel but that is another discussion).
These price hikes are no different than tax hikes. I view them with the same level of disdain. It's impossible to tax the public to prosperity. Big business can't price gouge the public to prosperity either.
quote: Lyle RomerWell, Neucs still pollute too on such a massive scale that few can comprehend it. And it takes gobs of coal to make just one gallon of gasoline. The coal thing is not practical on a larage scale although they say that Oil Shale refining might start up again because technology has advanced suffuciently to make it practical. Actually Neucs are not very practical until they come up with a way to refine or re-use the waste by-products. The cheap alternative is already here and has been around as long as coal and oil... it's Natural Gas. Less than .70 a gallon in Utah!
Since generating more electricity with nuclear will cause lower need for coal, reform coal into gasoline to again add gasoline supply to the market that is domestically produced.
quote: Alan PlesterDiesel in my home town of Dover Delaware is running this morning about $4.85/gal that's roughly about $1.30 or so per ltr.
Scariest one found at the moment is diesel @ £1.28 ltr
quote: Chris HippI don't know about that.
I suppose we can take some satisfaction knowing that these idiots who are buying oil for over $200 a barrel are going to take a lot bigger hit than we are when the bubble does pop.
quote: Mike Blakesley...to match the $7.25/hr minimum wage in 2009...
he thinks we'll see $6.00 per gallon in the next two years.
quote: Mike BlakesleyMy prediction is that it will double within 2-3 years, and reach $25 per gallon within ten years. I don't think it will be the end of the world as we know it. People will make less long journeys, they will walk more for short ones, as they used to. We are just going to have to get used to the idea of energy being expensive. There will be more incentive for improved efficiency, We'll see more of waste heat recovery from air conditioning systems and industrial processes, and that sort of thing. Plastics are also going to get a lot more expensive too, and we're going to see a lot more recycling of them, which is really only just starting to happen now.
I listen quite often to Bruce Williams (talk show host, financial advisor) -- he thinks we'll see $6.00 per gallon in the next two years.
quote: Steve GuttagI'm a little foggy history, but didn't we have an oil embargo running against the Japanese empire in 1941? Isn't that one of the factors that pushed their military into bombing Pearl Harbor?
I would highly doubt that gas will hit $25/gallon (in the States). It would shut down this country...which is the sort of thing that wars are made of.
quote: Steve GuttagI really do think that sort of price is possible within a ten year timescale. Oil prices will rise and fall, but there is bound to be an overall upward trend, and I think it will be a steep one.
I would highly doubt that gas will hit $25/gallon (in the States). It would shut down this country...which is the sort of thing that wars are made of.
quote: Steve GuttagYou talk about how the Country runs now, but if it can't afford to run that way in the future then it will have to run in some other way, won't it? Let's say a company pays some of its staff to fly, or drive, to a meeting for a few hours, and then drive back again. In the past that was cheap, but in the future it won't be, so we have to ask if it really makes sense to physically transport all of those bodies several hundred miles to the meeting.
This country is rather spread out and has always pushed the transportation of the day. The very nature of States as individual sovern entities within a common "united" collective is, at the root, how this country runs. Without transportation by road/air...etc in an economical fashion will kill not only the economic infrastructure but the whole way of life. $25/gallon based on current income levels (or even rosy projected income levels 10-years from now), would effectively strand people and kill them.
quote: Steve GuttagI have no idea, obviously some much more than others. Some will need to travel more than thers due to the nature of their work, etc. However, if the price of fuel rises steeply then they are going to have to either:
At $3.00/$4.00 per gallon it is already showing its affect on our economy entertainment businesses have already felt its affects. How many miles does the average American drive in a week?
quote: Steve GuttagSo what will you do if fuel prices do rise that much, which is something that is completely beyond your control? Will you just crawl into a hole and die, or will you make changes to reduce you energy consumption to what you can afford? If changes have to be made isn't it better to make them gradually rather than to wait until there's a major crisis and then be forced to make them suddenly?
For me, it is in the hundreds, just to get to/from work (not the miles at work, in a company vehicle). Call it 300-miles for me. My vehicle seems to get about 30miles/gallon or about 10-gallons a week. That is $250/week or $13,000/year for gas at $25.00 a gallon. For some, it would be notably more...for some a bit less but either way...rather parallizing. Then again, at those gas rates...most won't be able to go to the theatre so my income to drop to make things even more dire.
quote:So produce the food more locally; food eaten in Maine doesn't have to be grown in California. Lamb for England doesn't have to come from New Zealand. I'm not suggesting that we all need to become farmers, and grow all our own food at the bottom of the garden, but if we reduce the distances that we transport goods, use more fuel-efficient ways of transporting it, use alternative sources of energy, reduce the excessive packaging which many products have these days, consume a bit less generally and pay slightly more then it doesn't have to be a disaster; it's not the end of the World.
In a day when people still talk about the difference of a few pennies over a loaf of bread, the difference of 300-400% in a gallon of gas to get that loaf of bread would seem to finanically kill the shopper (note, the loaf of bread would also go up in price more than pennies since the transporation costs of getting it to market would also go up 300-400%).
quote: Leo EnticknapMust be cheap booze to run your car with it.
Went over to Calais between Christmas and the New Year to fill the car up with cheap booze.
quote: Stephen FurleyGuilty as charged!
Europe is a big place, but I don't go to France to buy wine (there are some that do)
quote: Steve GuttagBut what do you mean by "it just would not work in this country"? If that's what the price was in say ten years time, then you would have to find a way to make it work. To a large extent you cannot control the price of oil; if the price goes up then you have to either pay more, or use less, or both. What you're saying seems to be rather like saying "It can't rain next week, it just wouldn't work in this country" If it's going to rain then it will rain, and there's not a lot you can do about it. You can stay indoors, or put on waterproof clothing, but you can't stop it raining. If the World price of oil goes up then it goes up. You can find ways to use less oil, but you can't stop the price going up.
But $25/gallon with today's or even 10-years from today's income levels...it just would not work in this country.
quote: Steve GuttagNo, I'm sorry, but I really don't.
Oh Stephen...you just don't get it.
quote: Steve GuttagNo it wouldn't. People would use less energy, they would use it more efficiently, the would make more use of alternative forms of energy which are not economically viable at present, but which would become so it the price of oil were to rise that much.
what you are talking about is flooding the entire country...it would kill it.
quote: Steve GuttagWhat do the Declaration of the Independence or the Constitution have to do with the price of oil? Oil, at least petroleum oil wasn't generally even being used then. At that time ships used wind power, and most land transport used horse power, or man power. People started to use oil because the technology was developed to use it, and it started to be produced in quantities which made it readily available, and cheap. Even then, it was far from universal; trains generally burned coal or wood, when electricity became widely available most power stations burned coal. This idea of relying so heavily on oil really is a quite recent thing, and I don't think to rely so heavily on a single source of energy is a good thing.
You can start with the Declaration of the Independence, move the Constitution
quote: Frank AngelA lot of it is deliberate market manipulation, reality distortion, spin, etc.
Bobby, you are right, people are using less now out of sheer necessity, but so if that's true, and it is as the oil companies claim -- that it's demand that is driving the cost -- then since demand is LESS, how come the price keeps going up?
quote: Frank AngelYou're right, this WAS covered before but I don't remember what thread it was in. But the explanation is easy.
I tried to find the answer to a question I once posed here -- someone gave an explanation but I can't find it and I can vaguely remember it. My question is, let's say a gas station has a 5000 gallon tank and he fills it up at $3.00 a gallon. Then the price starts going up, why does he have to adjust the price with each increase that's unrelated to his purchase cost? He's already bought the gas! He is just adding profit because he can.
quote: Mike BlakesleyI don't buy that. Retailers don't live from one widget to the next. Unless they are on the verge of bankrupcy, they buy as many as they can afford and they think they can sell. I would think it is the same with selling gasoline. The retailer lives from tank fill to the next tank fill, not from one gallon sale to the next.
In retail, you always need to base your selling price on what it will cost you to REPLACE the thing you're selling...not on what you paid for it.
Let's say I buy a widget for $2.00 and my selling price is $3.00. But then I get a new price list from the supplier saying widgets now cost me $3.00. If I stick to my old selling price, I can't replace my inventory and still cover my overhead.
quote: Bobby HendersonTaking care to keep this remark in the area of economics and not heading into politics, there is a 'stagflation or just deflation?' debate going on in the papers here at the moment. Gordon Brown's thinking appears to be that if the government can keep wage increases at or below the CPI, that will prevent a stagflation scenario because there simply won't be the money in the system to allow runaway commodity price increases. Given that something like 35% of the British workforce work directly or indirectly for the state (and thus their salaries are controlled by the government), he might just get away with it. The threat, however, is that as people's disposable incomes switch more and more from discretionary to non-discretionary spending (e.g. that trip to the theatre has to be scrapped because of higher food and fuel bills), the job losses and declining tax revenues in those parts of the economy which depend on discretionary consumer spending (again, a terrifying high proportion of the overall British economy) will cause more damage than stagflation would have done.
Unfortunately, it's looking more like "stagflation." Stagnant wages and rising prices. Real great for the misery index.
Until it really gets out of hand, I'll just do what I'm doing now, adjusting in other areas of my life. For instance, I rarely if ever buy any DVD's (thank you Netflix), I buy less clothes and when I do I shop around for bargains, the 99 cent store is my favorite place to shop (when I remember that I can save 2 or 3 bucks on certain items by buying it there instead of Target), etc. An extra $20 a week on gas isnt really that big of a deal to me just yet.
quote: Frank AngelThe car business is a lot different from most other retail businesses. First, a car dealer usually has a large shop in the back which is where the REAL profit is made. (One dealership I know of pays its mechanics $13 - $18 per hour, but charges $59 per hour to the consumer.) They also sell parts at the "list" price, which is about twice what you would pay at an auto parts store for the same parts. Second, new cars have lots of built-in and add-on profit perks, some of which the consumer may never find out about -- like undercoating, "dealer prep," add-on accessories, holdbacks and much more. Third, used cars are a huge profit center too.
If, say, car dealerships worked the way of your widget model or the way service stations seem to work, they'd have to change the sticker price on the cars in the showrooms every day, contimually marking them up based on what they think next year's models are going to cost them, which is nuts. They sell the current models for what they bought them for plus their markup.
quote: Frank AngelThis also happens in the other direction but nobody complains. When the wholesale price drops, the price at the pump drops immediately even though the gas station paid more for the fuel in the ground.
I tried to find the answer to a question I once posed here -- someone gave an explanation but I can't find it and I can vaguely remember it. My question is, let's say a gas station has a 5000 gallon tank and he fills it up at $3.00 a gallon. Then the price starts going up, why does he have to adjust the price with each increase that's unrelated to his purchase cost? He's already bought the gas! He is just adding profit because he can. If he sold it at the $3 price (adding his usual profit which is a given percentage over whatever the price purchase price), he would only need to raise the price the next time he buys another fill-up. No?
quote: Lyle RomerMaybe that happens in your part of Florida, but it definitely doesn't happen here in Oklahoma -and this is oil country.
This also happens in the other direction but nobody complains. When the wholesale price drops, the price at the pump drops immediately even though the gas station paid more for the fuel in the ground.
quote: Mike BlakesleyTrue. And it's very different from the oil business. People have a choice about buying a car. They can choose to keep driving the same old vehicle or get something else -perhaps something different from the same old gas guzzling models Detroit's auto makers have been selling. So if an auto company decides to jack up its prices due to materials costs, it will risk customers choosing to sit on the sidelines as a result.
The car business is a lot different from most other retail businesses.
quote: Mark GulbrandsenThis is coming from someone who talks openly about driving a Hummer, or Range Rover?
Actually I think the rising oil prices are the best thing that ever happened to this country. It will finally for the better change the way we live and stop much of the waste that goes on.
quote: Lyle RomerWhat actually happens is:
This also happens in the other direction but nobody complains. When the wholesale price drops, the price at the pump drops immediately even though the gas station paid more for the fuel in the ground.
quote: Bobby HendersonYep! We bought them because we felt they will more than likely be the last large off road vehicles one will be able to own. Sort of a final farewell. They are both really great vehicles and both have been more or less trouble free. They don't really get that bad of gas milage... the Humnmer wins the contest though at about 19mpg if you drive it nice, not over 70mph. The Land Rover does about 17mpg at not over 70mph. I won't regret buying them till gas hits about 10 bucks a gallon.
This is coming from someone who talks openly about driving a Hummer, or Range Rover?
quote: Richard HamiltonI know it's real sad to see this. When I pass a lot of car lots - new and used, that is all I see in them .. just loaded with SUV's and pickups..and I'm sure that the used inventory is growing like mad of these vehicles at these dealerships.
They really didn't want it because they had too many SUVs on the lot, and they didn't think they could sell it. Ripple effect????
quote:(the 2nd of the 5 great Emperors of Rome?)
"Ask me about Trajan"
quote: Bobby HendersonHa, I wonder what happened to the 40 mpg plus that the old 1970's Honda Civic's used to get.
The Honda Fit we just bought for our sales manager to use for driving to sales calls cost less than $15,000. It gets up to 34mpg on the highway, which is close to double the fuel economy his Ford F150 was getting.
quote: David StambaughThe reason we have had it "far too easy" compared to Europe is due to the ridiculous level of taxes that European countries slap on gas (or petrol as they call it). The consumers that have it "far too easy" and still have it that way are the consumers in oil producing countries like Venezuela and some in the middle east where the government SUBSIDIZES the price of gas and they are paying less than $1 per gallon.
US consumers have had it far too easy on this issue for far too long, compared to the rest of the world. It's about time we get slapped upside the head.
quote: Monte L FullmerOne of the issues with producing cars for the US that get the kind of milage that some of those cars in Europe get are the safety regulations. There is a lot of weight added to a vehicle so that it passes the crash tests. The only way to get really high levels of fuel economy in a US vehicle (over MPG) will be to use advanced (and expensive) materials to add to the strenght to weight ratio. Of course, what good would a car be if it got 80 MPG highway if it had the size and perfomance of a Honda Civic and cost $50,000?
I've always been impressed of the small vehicles sold in Europe. Vehicles with motors less than 1000cc in size, and their biggest, in economy mode, hits up to 1400cc and using both fuel types of diesel and gasoline.
quote: Bobby HendersonBobby, I thought you were smart enough to know that I was just throwing out a general number. There are lots of cars costing less than 30K and plenty of cars that cost much more.
$30,000?
The Honda Fit we just bought for our sales manager to use for driving to sales calls cost less than $15,000.
quote: Bobby HendersonOld habits die hard. The car manufacturers may have gotten the message, but they don't seem be ready yet to admit publicly that we are going to have to change our ideas about cars, driving and efficiency. Instead of offering vehicles which get better mpg, they offer to pay for your gas so you can still buy their inefficient cars and drive they way you're accustomed to....just keep doing what your doing seems to be the message. GM's ads say, "We're doing something about the price of gas...." No you're not.
The high gasoline prices are going to force auto makers and other business and industry people to get a lot more serious about developing alternative sources of energy. For decades they've just made fun of such efforts as bunny hugger environmentalist nonsense. Now the cost situation has the fire lit under their asses finally.
quote: Frank AngelI'm one of those people. In my avalanche, driving 70 MPH I get about 19.7 MPG highway. Driving 80 MPH I get about 16.7 MPG. I know that I can get 3 MPG more driving 10 MPH less BUT....
And I was recently in Florida where EVERYONE drives at freakin 80 - 90 mph on I95. Not a lot of people seem to get it that they need to CHANGE their habits and drive more conservatively.
quote: Lyle RomerCould you please explain why ethanol is pointless?
combined with so much farm land being dedicated to corn to make pointless ethanol
quote: Frank AngelIt's like that on every interstate. Try driving through Atlanta on I75 at any given time of the day
And I was recently in Florida where EVERYONE drives at freakin 80 - 90 mph on I95.
quote: Chad SouderYes, let's use food to fuel our cars.
Could you please explain why ethanol is pointless?
quote: Chad SouderMany reasons:
Could you please explain why ethanol is pointless?
quote: Bobby HendersonBut where are you going to get the Hydrogen from? You won't find it naturally, and the only two processes which I'm aware of for making it on an industrial scale are electrolysis of water, for which you need a lot of electric power which could probably be better used powering electric vehicles, and steam reforming of natural gas, which could probably also be better used directly. We had a few fuel cell buses on trial in London, but I they've gone now, and they were very expensive.
I think methods like hydrogen fuel cell technology show more potential.
quote: Frank AngelIt has nothing to do with habits. People want to buy more fuel-efficient cars, but the Fords and the GMs of the world can't just get up tomorrow morning and build them -- they have to be designed, tested, approved by a million bean-counters and government authorities, and then the tooling has to be created and assembly set up, and so on and on.
Old habits die hard. The car manufacturers may have gotten the message, but they don't seem be ready yet to admit publicly that we are going to have to change our ideas about cars, driving and efficiency. Instead of offering vehicles which get better mpg, they offer to pay for your gas so you can still buy their inefficient cars and drive they way you're accustomed to....
quote: Stephen FurleyTrue, but hydrogen does offer a reasonably efficient way of storing energy for later use in a moving vehicle. Hydrogen production plants could be powered by renewable energy, operating only when the sun is shining, wind is blowing etc. Once you've produced the hydrogen, you can then (i) store it until needed, and (ii) use it to power a moving vehicle.
Unless you've got large amounts of electric power available from non-fossil sources, such as hydro or nuclear, then I think fuel cells are a non-starter.
quote: Mark GulbrandsenAgreed. I've been kicking around the natural has vehicle (NGV) conversion idea for the longest time. The ability to fill up with cheap fuel at home using a pump such as the FuelMaker Phill sounds very attractive; a conversion would be just the ticket, along with a rebuilt engine, to clean up the exhaust on my 1964 F-100, a vintage truck devoid of emission controls and destined for the crusher if the state ever manages to get its way with getting old vehicles off the road.
I'll still side with Natural gas.
quote: Alan PlesterYou are lucky to find a Garage with Fuel - as in my home town Southampton I had to search at least 4 Garages for Diesel as they were sold out and they were not Shell Garages!.
Todays price @ my local petrol= 1.17 deisel 1.30 thats
quote: Monte L FullmerNope... Sold the Harley a couple months ago and added the $$ to the retirement account. Have barely ridden it in the last two years... I think a total of just 87 miles. It never gave particuluarly good milage anyway... Too many mods done to soup it up over the years. I thought I'd miss it but haven't so far.
Gee Mark, time to drag out the Harley, for there was tons of them also on the road
quote: Jason BlackSo what exactly is "price gouging" in a free market where competition is supposed to be the natural regulator of prices? I mean, who decides that and based on what? If one guy is selling gas at $3.15 a gal and another is selling it for $3.50, is that price gouging or just one guy thinks he can make more profit? And if some gov agency can say, you can't charge higher than $n a gallon because that would be price gouging, then why can't they say, anything over $2.50 is price gouging? Seems like the govenment intefering by claiming price gouging is just a wimpy form of regulation. And if they are going to regulate, then they should get a set of balls and do it. Freeze the price or cap it or whatever other nafarios things they do when they step into the socialism quicksand, but if it is NOT regulated, then they should keep their nose out of it and let the market do what it's going to do. Capitalism sometimes is painful. And I am not saying that I disagree with regulation in some instances, but if they are going to do it, then bite the bullet and get off the fence.
Supposed shortages in NC/SC but I think it's more related to price gouging than a true shortage.
quote: Frank AngelThe government does not have any of that money. They borrow it. They do so through selling bonds and all sorts of other stuff. The United States has a $52 trillion unfunded liability -that's the combined total of our $10 trillion+ in government debt along with another $40 trillion+ largely going into funding our absurd health care system. Still, the United States government has a much larger "credit line" than most banks.
How is it for example, that everyone is saying there isn't enough money for heathcare and for the infrastructure and for education and they are holding the candidates feet to the fire to explain how they are going to pay for all the stuff they claim they will fix once they get elected.....how will they possibly find the money to do this and that and the candidates are stumbling all over themselves trying to explain how they can do it without raising taxes. Yet, all of a sudden, in less than two freakin weeks, they are able to find 700 BILLION DOLLARS to give to the banks?
quote: Bobby HendersonHigher education is for the most part a huge scam. They've made it imperative for people to get 4 year degrees or even 4 years plus graduate school to do jobs that you could do with 2 years or less of education. Even my degree as an electrical engineer. If I only focused on Math, Science and Engineering classes, I could have gotten my education in 2 1/2 years. I had to get "educated" for an extra 1 1/2 years so that I could take important classes like philosophy.
IMHO, the health care sector and higher education sectors are due for massive corrections too. Both industries have had runaway price inflation for all of this last decade while personal income growth has remained stagnant.
quote: Bobby HendersonThe bigger concern should be trying to develop viable alternative energy sources instead of energy negative and food price increasing sources like corn based ethanol. In addition to using wind and solar power where it makes sense (although enormous amounts of energy are used to make the turbine blades), the biggest push should be to try and increase the use of Nuclear Power. The waste situation can be dealt with. It would be viable to try and get to something in the 5-10 year timeframe like 40% nuclear, 20% green energy (wind/solar/etc), 30% coal (using clean coal technology), 10% natural gas. Then we can use natural gas as a common automobile fuel to replace a lot of the gasoline/diesel consumption.
Concern is being raised by the news media that falling gas prices will undermine efforts to develop alternative energy sources and reduce the nation's dependence on imported oil. I think some of those concerns are unfounded.
The run up in gasoline prices to record levels caused a great deal of demand destruction. The area in Oklahoma where I live was deeply into the big truck and big SUV craze. I don't see very many of those vehicles on the roads anymore around here. People around here used to make fun of the Toyota Prius as a symbol of being wimpy. Once gasoline ran past the $3 and $4 per gallon levels, a lot of those same people swallowed their pride and started driving one, or some other kind of small car.
quote: Mitchell DvoskinOregon's the same way - no self serve. Wonder why no self serve options?
Self serve is illegal in NJ.
quote: Jeremy WeigelJust don't store it in your home
Now down to $2.399 here. Wish I had a few 50 gallon drums store some when when the prices start going back up.
quote: Mike BlakesleyThe reason for that, at least in NJ is lower gas taxes. They keep the taxes low to take away the argument that the full service is making it more expensive.
I notice the gas stations in OR and NJ aren't particularly higher-priced than the neighboring states, despite having to hire people to pump the gas. Here, there was always about a 20¢ per gallon difference between full and self, "to pay the employee to pump it for you."
quote: Jeremy WeigelGasoline begins to go stale after roughly a month. This is one reason why oils that are mixed with fuel for 2 stroke engines have fuel stabilizers in them.
Wish I had a few 50 gallon drums store some when when the prices start going back up.
quote: Monte L FullmerI believe the "demand destruction" is permanent. Americans love to drive. But they are no longer in love with gas guzzling vehicles that cost a fortune to keep on the road. GM, Ford and Chrysler being on the brink of ruin confirms that paradigm shift in vehicle preference. Even with fuel costing under $2.50 here, it still adds up to a pretty high cost when it comes to filling up a king cab truck or SUV.
Even though fuel prices are going down, is America going to go back to it's gas guzzling days, or have we learned a hard lesson to prepare ourselves in case this falling price of oil is just another "calm before the storm" situation?
quote: Bobby HendersonAt the current pace in price reduction we could see it below $2.00 here by next week. 87 Octane is down to $2.179 a $.22 drop in less than a week.
Hell, I'd like to see the price dip below $2.00 again.
quote: Bobby HendersonThe problem with bringing down the cost of either of these two "products" is the politicians. In both cases, politicians talk about making healthcare and college affordable. Unfortunately, they don't mean bring down the cost charged by providers. What they mean is to have the government (i.e. the "rich" people) subsidize healtcare and college for the "middle class". Thus, the "rich" people (who in reality are upper middle class and not rich) get to keep paying the high prices while college proffesors continue to earn 6 figure salaries to teach a couple of hours a day and then do "research".
I'm rooting for similar corrections to drop kick the hell out of the higher education industry and health care industry. Those two industries have seen runaway cost inflation go unabated for nearly 2 decades despite stagnant income growth. Plain, simple math does not equal them being able to continue with that greedy nonsense.
quote:How does the MPG compare between Natural Gas and Gasoline?
I'm still paying just .875 for natural gas here in Utah... its 2.05 in Evanston, WY and goes a little higher the farther you head east, up to 2.259 in Cheyenne, WY. Gas was cheapest in Evanston, WY at 2.669 a gallon for no lead. The amazing thing about running on natural gas is that the engine oil never gets dirty!
quote: Mark GulbrandsenTrue, you don't want to drop that 20 plus pounds of O-scope on that tank. Send you to the moon if that ever went...
just in case my TEK 465 might happen to fall down on it
quote: Bobby Henderson..and we're a buck more up here in Idaho... just insane...
$1.92 per gallon
quote: Monte L FullmerI've heard quite the opposite...the worldwide demand of diesel fuel has increased mainly as a result of growth in newly industrialized nations, without much of an increase in production to keep prices in check.
What I remember why diesel is higher that gasoline is that the demand isn't that high compared to the other.
quote:True (to be exact, the record was $147 per barrel). OTOH, it was back in 2004 when crude oil had traded above $50 per barrel for the first time ever. 4 years is a bigger span of time than 4 months, but 2004 is still fairly recent history.
Oil overnight went down to $48 a barrel. Not that long ago it was at $150+ per barrel!
quote: Mark GulbrandsenLike the "StarWars" series...
This thread has now gone full circle...