Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Circuit City Closing 155 Stores

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-03-2008, 09:39 AM:

This morning Circuit City confirmed weekend rumors that it will close 155 stores in the U.S. Those store closings are apparently taking place this week. The "store locator" feature on the Circuit City website has been updated to reflect those closings. There is also a PDF on this page showing the complete store closing list.

I'm a little surprised with the choices of two Circuit City locations that are closing in Oklahoma. The one in the Penn Square area is in a busy, upscale part of town. There's lots of other retailers there. The other location is a brand new store in Norman in the University Town Center development -a really nice looking strip shopping center. One of my friends bought a 52" Samsung TV and Denon receiver at that store this past summer. Metro Oklahoma City will still have two remaining Circuit City locations. I was kind of expecting the Wichita Falls, TX location to be on the hit list (the store where I bought my TV and PS3), but it's still open...for now.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-03-2008, 09:48 AM:

Shit. There are still 14 stores near me according to the locater. Oh well, maybe next time.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-03-2008, 10:19 AM:

It looks like they're closing every store in Atlanta. Rome, Columbus and Chattanooga, TN are the only locations that show up on a store search in that region.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 11-03-2008, 10:33 AM:

High Prices, Abysmal Customer Service, Incompetent Sales People. This is not a surprise. What is a surprise is that Best Buy is doing well with the same business model.

Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 11-03-2008, 12:45 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
The other location is a brand new store in Norman in the University Town Center development -a really nice looking strip shopping center.

I was in that store a month ago. Was pretty dead.

I'm far too lazy to compare the store locator to the close list, but it looks like they're pulling out of Kansas City completely too.

I've been to the Shoal Creek (KC MO) store twice, both on Sunday afternoons, and there wasn't a single other customer in the store either time. Based on the parking lot, I wondered if the store was even open the first time.

That was a pretty new store too. REALLY poorly located...it was hidden back from Hwy 152 and not exactly easy to access.

I really don't like the current layout of Circuit City stores anyway. You'd think they'd have a specific area for AV receivers, but no...they just randomly set them around the TV area. Nothing else they do is much more organized. In fact, although I've been in a few Circuit City stores in recent years, I can't remember how long it's been since I actually bought anything at Circuit City, if ever.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 11-03-2008, 12:55 PM:

There is only one Circuit City store in Hawaii and it is located in Aiea near where I live and thank God, it will not be closing. There has been recent talk that another new store might be built at Kapolei but with the financial problems the company has plus the poor national economy, I doubt it will happen. It was a blow to lose Comp USA last year as well as Tower Video/Records before that but if we had lost our only Circuit, City store, all that will be left is our two Best Buy stores in my area.

The Hawaii store is always busy and is very well arranged. It is in a large two story buildingl all by it's self at the Pearlridge Mall and has a large television and computer hardwear/softwear display areas. They also have a very extensive DVD and CD section. I was told the Hawaii store is very profitable and that is probably the reason they are not closing it.

-Claude

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-03-2008, 01:14 PM:

I was in CC in Springfield yesterday. I noticed their stock level of some items was very low, in fact there were some empty shelves & racks. That store isn't on the closing list though.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-03-2008, 01:42 PM:

quote: Mitchell Dvoskin
High Prices, Abysmal Customer Service, Incompetent Sales People.

I often find the latter two problems at most electronic stores. Honestly, anyone making a significant electronics purchase would be far better off "doing their homework" and knowing exactly what they want to buy and for what price before ever setting foot into the store. Salespeople very often lack critical knowledge about products. Or worse, they're pressured by management to move crappy, hard to sell items off onto customers who don't know any better.

As for high prices, that really depends on the product. I purchased my HDTV from Circuit City because they not only matched or beat the prices from other stores they actually had the TV in stock. Best Buy and other stores didn't. I wasn't willing to put up with paying the same price to special order the item and wait weeks for it to arrive.

I'll probably end up having to buy the AV receiver I want from Ultimate Electronics. Best Buy tends to only have mostly mid-range to entry level receivers in stock.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 11-03-2008, 01:51 PM:

The other thing Circuit City might want to do is not give super secret bargains. There are countless times I've bought video games especially that are priced higher on the shelves than at the register. People would probably be more likely to buy at the lower prices but they'd never know the prices are lower.

Speaking of prices, I just bought a Mitsubishi WD-65735 DLP HDTV. I was going to buy it at circuit city for $1800 (including tax) but then I found it online for $1403 including shipping. Why would I pay $400 more for the EXACT same thing.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-03-2008, 03:10 PM:

quote: Lyle Romer
Why would I pay $400 more for the EXACT same thing.

It's not the exact same thing. The physical store has to pay for a building and all its related expenses, and all the employees to sell the thing to you. Online, there doesn't need to be a building; the TV might be shipped from some central warehouse by some non-English speaking illegal immigrant making sub-minimum wage. And you did all the sales work yourself.

And there's nothing wrong with that -- but there is a huge difference between traditional retail and online in terms of costs.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-03-2008, 03:22 PM:

It's okay to buy from Circuit City if you already know what you want and you know what price you want to pay.

If you are ready to buy a new TV and you have already done your homework... You know what Manufacturer/Model you want... You know what the going price for said make/model is, it's perfectly fine to buy from Circuit City or Best Buy, etc.

But, if you are expecting to get good advice on what to buy or want to know more about the product than is printed on the outside of the box, you're better off going elsewhere.

Also, don't be afraid to tell the sales people (or better, the manager) that you were prepared to buy the product if it was in stock at the store.

If I go to a store like that and they tell me, "No, we don't have it in stock but we can order it for you." my stock answer is, "If I wanted to order something I would have bought it on the internet!" Then I say goodbye and walk out.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-03-2008, 03:59 PM:

CC's hard-sell on warranties really turned me off. I bought 4 HP notebooks from them, and put 3 on their "extended warranty". The slick salesman said they'd fix anything. Should have looked at the fine print. If you don't turn it on or take it out of the store, you're covered. I had a mouse button cover come loose. Sent it in. They sent it back, Scotch taped back on.

Sent it to HP (with a check). They sent it back with a new keyboard, a new battery and all current updates.

Live and learn, eh?

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 11-03-2008, 04:10 PM:

WTF?
Lubbock still has it's Circum City store...for now.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-03-2008, 04:11 PM:

Be aware that historicaly CC sold repops and other returns as new. Usually only selling last years model. I didn't know myself until I showed up at their store with Consumers Reports in hand. CR showed models 341, 351, 361; the store stocked model 241m 251, 261: last years model. Louis

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-03-2008, 04:55 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Be aware that historicaly CC sold repops and other returns as new. Usually only selling last years model. I didn't know myself until I showed up at their store with Consumers Reports in hand. CR showed models 341, 351, 361; the store stocked model 241m 251, 261: last years model.

Was that CC policy, or some rogue store manager(s)?

As someone who has recently shopped hard for 2 new TVs, I've found the CC here to consitently have the latest-greatest models of everything I'm interested in. I can't say they don't also have older model stuff out on the floor, but clearly "old stock" is not a 100% rule.

CC and BB are great places to shop, if you come in armed with your own knowledge. If you're depending on their sales staff to educate you, buyer beware. You could get lucky and get a knowledgeable salesperson, but you probably won't.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-03-2008, 07:14 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I'll probably end up having to buy the AV receiver I want from Ultimate Electronics. Best Buy tends to only have mostly mid-range to entry level receivers in stock.

Look in the "Magnolia" section. That's where I got my receiver. They even let me buy it without the warranty. I noticed some $190 HDMI cables in stock while I was there. Very temping, but I went ahead and save several hundred dollars by ordering from Monoprice. Oh well. Anyway, I am super happy with my receiver.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-03-2008, 08:56 PM:

I'm considering the Yamaha RX-V1900 or RX-V3900. None of the Best Buy locations in metro Oklahoma City or Wichita Falls, TX have any in stock. The two receivers cost $1399 and $1899 respectively. Either would have to be ordered.

On the bright side, Best Buy is currently offering a 0% interest for 18 months financing deal. If I bought it through Ultimate Electronics I would probably pay for the receiver 100% up front (may do that anyway regardless of where I buy it).

[ 11-03-2008, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Bobby Henderson ]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-03-2008, 10:04 PM:

I paid for mine with cash money. No credit cards for me! I have them, but I hate to use them. And checks are for girls.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-03-2008, 10:47 PM:

It certainly is best to pay cash up front. No bills to worry about afterward. The only way I'm going to finance an electronics purchase is if I can get it with no interest. Otherwise I'll just save up the money and buy it outright.

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 11-03-2008, 11:09 PM:

The Circuit City by us in on the list. I bought a UPS for my computer from Circuit City years ago. Other than that I always found their prices to be higher than Best Buy's and they had less options to choose from. I am no fan of Best Buy either. In fact, I am no fan of any store that has a bunch of teens working who just want to play around with their friends and gab rather than work and help you.

Bottom line: I make 90% of my purchases online now. I go to the store and check out the item and then go online and find it way cheaper somewhere else. With a few clicks you can have something on order very fast and have it within a few days.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-04-2008, 12:59 AM:

quote: Jack Ondracek
CC's hard-sell on warranties really turned me off.

Employees of stores like that are required to push the warranties and if their sales averages fall below minimum they can be "counseled" or lose their next opportunity for a pay raise. If their averages fall below the minimum for more than three months in a row they can be canned.

I used to work in the electronics department of the local Kaufmann's store. (Now bought out by Macy's)
I had to sell those damn warranties even though I hated like hell to do it. I was "counseled" several times. I lost a pay raise because of it and I was eventually let go because my average was too low.
(Not that I was sorry to leave... [Roll Eyes]

)

So don't blame the employees for pushing those warranties.
It's not their fault. They have to do it or face losing their jobs.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 11-04-2008, 10:48 AM:

There are big bucks in those warranties. CC's policy on open box, returns, etc. is that the box must be destroyed before the item goes to be sold, that prevents it being sold as new, the small stuff--cables, books, manuals etc. go into a plastic bag. That's from a former coworker who worked for CC.

Posted by Brian Michael Weidemann (Member # 2243) on 11-04-2008, 04:23 PM:

The warranties are just upselling. Our concessionists (and our theatre is by far not alone in this) are absolutely required to upsell, or hard sell the various combo deals. Not sure about the disciplinary action for those employees who don't meet some quota, but the list of things for them to say is exhaustive for the customer who just wants, say, a bottled water.

But then, that's the nature of the marketplace. You wanna buy something? You're going to be pitched to. Plain & simple. As long as we have the choice to refuse, just nod along while the spiel plays. [Big Grin]

Never been a Circuit City fan. I'm a Best Buy loyalist ... although they've been testing me the last couple years by drastically reducing the CD department. Their latest addition of a musical instruments department, akin to a mini Guitar Center, has won me back by an appreciable margin. Circuit City should probably have stayed more specialty ... perhaps become the connoisseur's Radio Shack, instead of expanding. Then, perhaps, it wouldn't have to close stores.

I'm good with managing my credit, so those 0% financing for 6, 12, 18 months deals are so, so tasty. Never paid a cent of interest on my Best Buy or Guitar Center cards, likely never will! [Wink]

Posted by Jennifer Pan (Member # 2035) on 11-04-2008, 05:08 PM:

Hmmmm.... good thing I didn't get the warranty when I bought my new tripod there recently.

Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 11-04-2008, 05:46 PM:

A while back I bought a Canon S3 IS camera from CC, along with CC's "2 year" warranty. Less than a year later the LCD started acting up so I took it to CC figuring they'd just exchange it. Nope, their warranty doesn't take effect until the manufacture's ends, but that time still counted against the CC warranty. Also, it would have to be sent to CC's "repair center." [Eek!]

They did however refund the cost of the warranty when I told them to, so at least I didn't get ripped off too badly beyond paying too much for the camera in the first place.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 11-04-2008, 06:17 PM:

Here in Atlanta most of the CC stores are in out of the way places. I guess that some management-moron type figured out that they could get cheaper rent in out of the way places, but did not figure out that they would not get very much foot traffic. That may be why they are closing just about all of them.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 11-08-2008, 06:47 PM:

Circuit City canned between 400 and 500 headquarters office staff here in Richmond on Friday. With a third fewer stores they need a third fewer support staff.

Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 11-08-2008, 08:22 PM:

I went to a Circuit City store in Atlanta today. The closeout sales were underwhelming. Just 10% off regular prices. The 20% offer extended to mainly CDs.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 11-09-2008, 02:50 AM:

As weeks go by, the sales will go up to 30%, 40%...eventually to fixtures. Then bye bye.

Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 11-09-2008, 12:48 PM:

quote: Pravin Ratnam
I went to a Circuit City store in Atlanta today. The closeout sales were underwhelming. Just 10% off regular prices.

According to this post on the Consumerist, you should be especially suspicious of items without price tags:

quote:
So if the liquidator wants the price to be higher, they can't print a tag (easily at least). So basically what they do is just not put a tag on it, raise the price, then give you the 10-30% discount. So really the customer is just paying normal or higher prices. They suspect it to be like that for a while depending on how fast they sell through inventory. If they aren't selling through product, then they should start giving real discounts.

What's worse, the liquidation company won't allow you to power up your prospective purchase (this article by the HD Guru specifically mentions HDTVs, no surprise here) to ensure you won't get stiffed with a DOA set, making a visit to one of the liquidated CCs even less attractive. I've found surplus auctions much more accommodating... [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-10-2008, 09:51 AM:

Looks like the other shoe has dropped and hit the floor.

Circuit City Files For Bankruptcy

quote: Bloomberg News Article
Nov. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Circuit City Stores Inc. filed for bankruptcy amid rising competition from Best Buy Co., Wal-Mart Stores Inc. and online electronics retailers.

The petition for Chapter 11 protection in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Richmond, Virginia, listed $3.4 billion in assets and $2.32 billion in liabilities, driving the shares down 56 percent before the New York Stock Exchange halted trading. The company said it is entering court protection owing Hewlett-Packard Co. $119 million and Samsung Electronics Co. $116 million.

The Richmond-based company, founded in 1949 when Samuel Wurtzel opened the city's first retail television store, has lost more than $5 billion in stock-market value in two years. Circuit City plans to stay in business while it comes up with a plan to restructure.

``It's very incongruent for retailers to file bankruptcy before Christmas,'' Burt Flickinger, managing director of consultant Strategic Resource Group in New York, said in a Bloomberg Television interview. ``You're gong to see a record number of retailer bankruptcies and closings.''

Concerns among vendors that Circuit City wouldn't be able to pay for the merchandise it sells ``escalated considerably'' in the past week, the company said in the filing.

Web-Based Retailers

The chain, with 721 stores in the U.S. and 770 in Canada, has said competition hurt sales, especially at older locations in lower-income neighborhoods. Amazon.com Inc. and other Web-based retailers of computers, televisions and music also have lured customers away.

Circuit City fell 14 cents to 11 cents at 9:30 a.m. before the start of trading on the New York Stock Exchange. The NYSE halted buying and selling of the shares after the stock's early plunge.

On Nov. 3, the company said it would close a fifth of its U.S. stores and renegotiate leases on some locations to conserve cash. The closings will leave it with about 566 U.S. stores and trim about 20 percent of the 43,000-strong workforce. Circuit City also said today it cut 700 jobs in its regional and district store support department.

Circuit City said it owes about $650 million to suppliers, with electronics manufacturers Sony Corp., Zenith Corp., Toshiba Corp., Garmin Ltd. and Nikon Inc. among the creditors.

Circuit City tried to sell itself in May after Blockbuster Inc. made a preliminary offer that was later withdrawn. The retailer fired higher-paid workers and opened smaller stores to cut costs. Until the shift, the company's strategy had been to sell in locations as large as 44,000 square feet (4,090 square meters), which it calls ``superstores.''

Bankruptcy Financing

Circuit City said it obtained $1.1 billion in bankruptcy financing, which replaces a $1.3 billion line of credit.

The second-biggest U.S. electronics retailer hired FTI Consulting Inc. for restructuring advice and replaced its chief executive officer Philip Schoonover in September with Director James Marcum, who led two other retailers through bankruptcies. Marcum, an associate of activist investor Mark Wattles, was named interim CEO.

On Sept. 29, Circuit City reported a loss of $239.2 million that was more than triple from a year earlier after sales fell for the sixth straight quarter.

Circuit City's rivals gained market share by offering Apple Inc. and Dell Inc. computers. Larger Best Buy and discount retailer Wal-Mart lowered prices on flat-panel televisions to lure U.S. customers, who are limiting spending because of higher food costs, further job losses and declining home values.

The global financial crisis is making it harder for the chain to stock its shelves and for consumers to finance purchases.

The company took on more debt this year, increasing a $500 million revolving credit agreement to $1.3 billion in January, according to its most recent quarterly filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. As of May 31, Circuit City said it still had $963 million available to borrow.

The case is In Re Circuit City Stores Inc., 08-35653, U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Eastern District of Virginia (Richmond).

To contact the reporters on this story: Tiffany Kary in New York bankruptcy court at tkary@bloomberg.net; Mark Clothier in Atlanta at mclothier@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: November 10, 2008 09:59 EST

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 11-10-2008, 02:44 PM:

Curious. The song "Let the Bodies Hit The Floor" has started playing in my head...

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-10-2008, 03:00 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
Employees of stores like that are required to push the warranties and if their sales averages fall below minimum they can be "counseled" or lose their next opportunity for a pay raise. If their averages fall below the minimum for more than three months in a row they can be canned.

Yah, I know that, Randy. I don't blame the sales guy.

A friend of mine manages a Regal theatre here. He lost a bonus because some concession gal didn't try to "biggie-fy" a popcorn purchase to a secret shopper.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-10-2008, 04:01 PM:

I know of one theater chain who will fire an counter person for failing to up-sell to a checker. The upside is the counter person will get a bonus if he does up-sell.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-10-2008, 07:59 PM:

http://consumerist.com/5082090/timeline-how-circuit-city-came-undone

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 11-10-2008, 08:29 PM:

My wife and I met for lunch today at a restaurant right next to a Circuit City. After hearing the news this morning we decided to go and see if the store was open and we could get any good deals. The signs said everything was up to 20% off, but the only thing that was 20% off were the dvd's that were already twice as much as at Wal-Mart. Everything else was only 10% off and not such a great deal even on sale.

The store shelves were half empty and this was not one of the stores that were scheduled to close on the list. Something tells me corporate knew something a long time ago.

I can never understand how these companies don't know months ahead they are in trouble and close or do something else before they have to file bankruptcy. Why didn't they close those stores six months ago to save all of the other jobs? I don't get it.

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 11-10-2008, 09:11 PM:

I don't think I'll bother with this clearance. When Comp USA was doing the liquidation thing, I would go back weekly, and even at 40-50% off, you could still get whatever was left cheaper elsewhere. The bargains probably don't come until 70-80%, but by then all you have left are the compressed air cans and fixtures.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-10-2008, 09:22 PM:

quote: Mike Heenan
by then all you have left are the compressed air cans

That'll bring all the huffers out of the woodwork. [Eek!]

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 11-10-2008, 09:28 PM:

If those are gone by that time, there might be some magic markers left...

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 11-11-2008, 01:13 AM:

The reason the shelves are bare is because vendors have stopped shipping them goods because they are not getting paid.
If this was a theatre chain or a projector parts dealer, they would have made the Deadbeats thread by now.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-11-2008, 01:35 AM:

Waitaminute... isn't Circuit City actually called "The City" now? Man, that is way fly! Ima have 2 shop there it iz hip.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-11-2008, 09:35 AM:

Seems like anytime a huge chain closes a couple hundred locations "to streamline operations and leverage our growth opportunities," the bankruptcy/liquidation announcement isn't far behind.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-11-2008, 11:36 AM:

While it's a bit sad to see Circuit City on the verge of implosion, this is small potatoes compared to the very real possibility General Motors could go under. I'm pretty concerned about that.

According to an article I read at the Bloomberg web site this morning, if GM went bankrupt it wouldn't be able to go into Chapter 11 reorganization. Instead, it would go directly into Chapter 7 liquidation. The company has lost over $70 billion over the last four years. If GM fails, the fallout from it could result in 2.5 million jobs lost during the first 12 months following the failure.

Goodyear has its largest tire manufacturing plant located here in Lawton. The factory makes a lot of tires for many GM vehicles, including the special tires for Corvettes. If GM fails, Goodyear might shut down that plant rather than spend money retooling it. Over 2000 people work there, many of which earn $50,000 per year or more. Our local economy would feel that hit pretty badly, despite all the BRAC-related expansion taking place aboard Fort Sill.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-11-2008, 07:02 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
very real possibility General Motors could go under.

I don't believe that'll ever happen. The stakes are too high --- too many jobs, as you said. They'll get a few hundred billion in a bailout. The real question is whether they'll be able to pay it back, like Chrysler did.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 11-11-2008, 07:14 PM:

There is a very real possibility that without some really big loans all 3 domestic auto companies could be gone by late '09. Even Toyota has seen a 25% decrease in sales world wide.

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 11-11-2008, 07:24 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
If GM fails, the fallout from it could result in 2.5 million jobs lost during the first 12 months following the failure.

How many of those jobs are in Mexico? I bet they trump up those numbers to make it sound worse. I bet half of those are Mexicans.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-11-2008, 08:57 PM:

That's doubtful. GM does employ a lot of people in many different countries across the globe. And those jobs help sustain the livings of many other people.

Just from the selfish perspective, if Lawton's Goodyear plant were closed as a consequence of a possible GM failure (or a very likely occurrence if all three major US auto companies fail) then our local economy would fall right into the toilet and then I could probably lose my job. After all, I do work in an advertising oriented industry. When this kind of crap slimes somebody, it doesn't just splatter one very selected group of people. It splatters all over the freaking place.

The big three auto companies directly and indirectly employ a whole hell of a lot more people than freaking Wall Street does. But the way things are going, we're going to bail out some silver spoon types up there (who are largely responsible for all this horrible mess) and leave everybody else with a nice "F.U., Goodbye."

I'm not very confident that even a government bailout will save the U.S. auto manufacturers. I hope something is able to manage it. Because if it doesn't, the failure of GM and possibly Ford and Chrysler will be the thing to touch off "Great Depression II."

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-13-2008, 02:59 PM:

The Circuit City around the corner from my office has "Now Hiring" signs all over the lawn in front of the store.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-13-2008, 04:57 PM:

The old DIVX format should be enough to demonstrate that Circuit City has had incompetent upper management with loose marbles since the beginning.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-13-2008, 10:28 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
The big three auto companies directly and indirectly employ a whole hell of a lot more people than freaking Wall Street does. But the way things are going, we're going to bail out some silver spoon types up there (who are largely responsible for all this horrible mess) and leave everybody else with a nice "F.U., Goodbye."

There's the fact that the investment banks in the rest of the world might not lend anymore with our's or with each other in fear of what's happened here, making it not only a bad situation for us but the rest of the world too. Add to that, the big three's total debts are a fraction of Wall Street and the investment banks that prompted the whole ordeal.

Furthermore, while the big three have been having trouble, it's not remotely true that the car industry as a whole is dying. Lots of foreign companies now have plants here in the US and hire many Americans and are doing far better than the big three. Perhaps if the big three fail, those foreign companies can take over their plants?

Also, the big three pay their manufacturing workers, on average, 52% higher than Toyota, 52% more than the average of management and professional workers, and 132% higher than the average manufacturing wage.

I don't agree with the original bailout, but this proposed one seems even less necessary.

Also, if you're gonna complain that the people bailed out were the ones who created the mess, shouldn't you be arguing against a big three bailout? Surely, a large component of this problem is stupidity at the upper-levels of the companies.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-13-2008, 10:54 PM:

Why does GM still sell Buicks and Pontiacs? They have too many brands. They should immediately dump Buick and Pontiac. They got rid of Oldsmobile a couple years ago, so the concept of useless brandnames is not foreign to them. Keep Chevy for mainstream buyers, and Cadillac for upscale customers. Maybe keep Saturn as the "alternative". There is no rational explanation for GM having GMC, Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac, Saturn, and Hummer brands. Look at their Japanese competitors: Honda & Acura; Toyota & Lexus; Nissan & Infiniti; Mazda & ______? Well ok Mazda doesn't fit this example. Anyway each major company has a brand for the masses and a brand for upscale buyers. They don't have some low-selling nameplate that only appeals to elderly fans of Tiger Woods. GM needs to clean house!

Well I guess they already shut down Hummer. Buick and Pontiac should be next if they're smart. Probably GMC too. Who the hell doesn't know that a Chevy pickup and a GMC pickup are exactly the same thing?

Actually it might be better to let GM go tits up. It'll be very painful in the short run, but the company will be resurrected in a couple years, with new lower-cost labor contracts, or maybe no unions at all, a streamlined product lineup, and they'll be in a much better position to compete than they are now.

Ford and Chrysler? Good luck!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-14-2008, 12:47 AM:

If GM had to file bankruptcy anytime within the next month or two, the current condition of the economy and frozen credit markets would make restructuring impossible. The company would be forced to liquidate. No second chances of re-emergence.

It gets even better. In a Bloomberg interview Wilbur Ross, an investor who made billions turning around distressed steel and textile companies, said a bankruptcy from one of the big three automakers right now could topple its two peers and drive already weakened suppliers out of business.

In order for GM to survive a chapter 11 filing, the government would have to step in to provide assistance and oversee the restructuring. There is no evidence the "private" financial industry would offer any help at all.

BTW, GM is already looking at eliminating a number of brands. They're trying to sell off the Hummer brand, if they can find any takers.

quote: Chris Slycord
Also, the big three pay their manufacturing workers, on average, 52% higher than Toyota, 52% more than the average of management and professional workers, and 132% higher than the average manufacturing wage.

This hints at one possible motive behind the larger resistance to a bailout of GM, Ford and/or Chrysler. Allowing the big three US automakers to go bust would be a tremendous blow against the UAW and unions in general.

Unfortunately, tossing many thousands of high paid blue-collar union workers out of their jobs would have serious consequences. Those good paying jobs also pay lots of taxes to fund schools, police departments and lots of other public works stuff. Lots of small businesses and all sorts of service oriented businesses get a big part of their income from those kinds of workers too. A lot of non-union people would lose their jobs. With so many people losing jobs at once it could overwhelm the pool of unemployment benefits.

quote: Chris Slycord
Also, if you're gonna complain that the people bailed out were the ones who created the mess, shouldn't you be arguing against a big three bailout? Surely, a large component of this problem is stupidity at the upper-levels of the companies.

A bailout, or at least some sort of assistance, to the big three auto makers would not be anywhere near as expensive as the lunacy going on with Wall Street.

Bloomberg News was denied a Freedom of Information Act request to the Treasury Dept. to see just what happened with $2 trillion of emergency loans to the financial industry. That's on top of the $700 billion Congress approved. There's no oversight. No transparancy. Wall Street firms are just hoarding the cash and spending it how ever they choose, which includes lavish executive bonuses and a lot more extravagant shit. A bunch of that money is crossing borders to Lord only knows where. The government might as well be pissing it away at a casino. That bailout hasn't worked and its cost is many times larger than what the auto companies are asking.

At least with an automotive company or other company that actually makes a tangible, finished product you have stuff you can track. There's actual factories, supply lines, etc. You don't have that sort of thing with some investment banking firm.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 11-14-2008, 02:41 AM:

Toyota has 3 brands...Scion, Toyota and Lexus.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-14-2008, 05:09 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
This hints at one possible motive behind the larger resistance to a bailout of GM, Ford and/or Chrysler. Allowing the big three US automakers to go bust would be a tremendous blow against the UAW and unions in general.

Well what makes the UAW so special that I should subsidize them negotiating a much-higher-than-market contract? Further, this isn't "allowing them to go bust" but is "allowing them to fix their own problems." Considering the situation, wouldn't you think it would make sense for the UAW and the big three to start renegotiating their contracts? Say the union is willing to take reductions in pay and benefits until the company gets solvent.

quote: Bobby Henderson
Bloomberg News was denied a Freedom of Information Act request to the Treasury Dept. to see just what happened with $2 trillion of emergency loans to the financial industry.

And I agree that it's ridiculous. But again, I don't buy the argument that because one area of the markets gets helped out that we should add a little bit more to another.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-14-2008, 03:47 PM:

quote: Chris Slycord
Well what makes the UAW so special that I should subsidize them negotiating a much-higher-than-market contract?

Because the failure of GM or all big three auto companies would adversely affect a LOT more people than just some lazy, overpaid union workers.

quote: Chris Slycord
Further, this isn't "allowing them to go bust" but is "allowing them to fix their own problems."

In this case "fixing their own problems" would be like a person solving an issue with depression by shooting himself in the head. Right now if GM goes bankrupt they go completely out of business. There won't be any opportunity for them to fix their problems.

quote: Chris Slycord
Considering the situation, wouldn't you think it would make sense for the UAW and the big three to start renegotiating their contracts?

They've already been doing that. But union pay isn't the primary reason why GM has lost over $70 billion since the end of 2004. Cutting union paychecks in half or further isn't enough to deal with the current problem either. Right now GM is bleeding out billions in losses because way too many customers are being denied financing. They can't sell enough vehicles to get remotely close to any sort of positive cash flow.

Those greedy investment banker clowns the government bailed out to nearly $3 trillion at this point aren't turning loose of any of that taxpayer money to unfreeze credit markets. Instead it looks like they're going to do a bit of business as usual: be secretive with how they handle the money, hand out lots and lots of huge bonuses and then maybe even help a few of those guys retire for life at ripe old age of 45.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-14-2008, 04:34 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
In this case "fixing their own problems" would be like a person solving an issue with depression by shooting himself in the head. Right now if GM goes bankrupt they go completely out of business. There won't be any opportunity for them to fix their problems.

1) You clearly don't know a thing about depression. Depression isn't remotely like a company making bad decisions and asking to fix the results of the bad decision.

2) I'm confused how me saying "let them fix their own problem" was a sign of me accepting that they are going to go bankrupt. You're assuming they will file for bankruptcy and because they will they won't have any time to fix anything.

quote: Bobby Henderson
They've already been doing that. But union pay isn't the primary reason why GM has lost over $70 billion since the end of 2004. Cutting union paychecks in half or further isn't enough to deal with the current problem either. Right now GM is bleeding out billions in losses because way too many customers are being denied financing. They can't sell enough vehicles to get remotely close to any sort of positive cash flow.

I guess the financing issue is the reason why other car companies are failing left-and-right as well? Oh wait. They AREN'T.

I've known plenty of people who used to be big on the "Buy American" idea only to grow tired of the mediocre-to-poor cars they got and have since gone to foreign brands.

And again, just because the investment banks got money that I think they didn't deserve doesn't mean I think the car industry deserves money too.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-14-2008, 06:59 PM:

Chris you're talking like the Wall Street bailout and GM bailout are equal in size.

The idiots in our government approved another $40 billion today just for AIG -bringing that company's bailout alone to over $150 billion. To celebrate, AIG is going to hand out $500 million in "deferred compensation" to certain levels of management and senior executives. Yay.

I hate these bailouts too -especially the ones going to Wall Street. They're locking out any oversight from the goverment and avoiding any disclosure of how the funds are used to taxpayers. I guess in some sick sort of way that helps them say what they're doing isn't tantamount to socialism. As long as no one from the government is bossing us around with "an ownership stake" on how we use their money we're still practicing capitalism.

quote: Chris Slycord
You clearly don't know a thing about depression. Depression isn't remotely like a company making bad decisions and asking to fix the results of the bad decision.

It was an analogy -like someone curing their athlete's foot by amputating his leg.

quote: Chris Slycord
I'm confused how me saying "let them fix their own problem" was a sign of me accepting that they are going to go bankrupt. You're assuming they will file for bankruptcy and because they will they won't have any time to fix anything.

Without any help GM will run out of money for any operations by the end of December. They can't get any loans to continue operation. Financial companies haven't been willing to work with GM on this. GM stock is nearly devalued. The math is pretty easy on what will happen if everybody just sits back and watches.

quote: Chris Slycord
I guess the financing issue is the reason why other car companies are failing left-and-right as well? Oh wait. They AREN'T.

I'm currently working on dual billboard design for a Toyota dealership advertising lifetime warrantys on every new Toyota. No mileage limit. No time limit. Toyota may not be on the verge of bankruptcy, but the company would not be going to such an extreme on warranty coverage if it wasn't already hurting.

Japanese car companies have been getting beaten up pretty badly in this economy and the credit crunch is making it worse -not to mention a strengthening Yen that makes their exports even more expensive. They just didn't have so much of a reliance on SUV and pickup truck sales as the big 3 US firms. The Japanese companies have been well ahead of the American ones on hybrid cars. However, a car like a Toyota Prius is not exactly cheap. You'll spend over $30,000 on one with a decent configuration.

quote: Chris Slycord
I've known plenty of people who used to be big on the "Buy American" idea only to grow tired of the mediocre-to-poor cars they got and have since gone to foreign brands.

A bunch of that is stereotype anymore. I've had good luck with the two Chevrolet vehicles I've owned. American cars can have their problems. But Japanese cars are not totally immune from having problems either. Both Toyota and Honda make great cars. If I hadn't got the great deal I did for my pickup, I probably would have bought a Toyota Celica GT (that was my 2nd choice).

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-14-2008, 07:36 PM:

A few weeks ago we were told that if we don't pass the $700B bailout RIGHT NOW, the world will end as we know it. A week later, the bailout was approved. (Oddly, the world didn't end during that week.) Now we learn they haven't spent all that money, and in fact they now want to use it for a different purpose than was originally planned (buying pieces of banks, rather than buying toxic debt). I suppose we should be glad someone realized the original plan was flawed before all the money was wasted.

Locally-owned Umpqua Bank was given $200M by the feds recently, even though the bank is not in any immediate danger of failing, not even close. A bank official commented "I guess we'll use the $200M to increase our footprint". Whatever that means.

Now it's GM. We are told that if we don't bail out GM by the end of the year, 3 million people will be out of work. Most of the domestic parts suppliers to the industry will fold, and when they do they'll put Ford and Chrysler out of business (I didn't see any mention of Toyota or other companies with a large US presence in the article). The failure(s) will have a ripple effect in Canada too.

Who are we supposed to believe? The only truth in any of this is the whole thing is way too complex for a few human minds to figure it all out. There's chaos theory at work here and nobody knows for sure what will happen. It's make an educated guess time.

quote: Bobby Henderson
I'm currently working on dual billboard design for a Toyota dealership advertising lifetime warrantys on every new Toyota. No mileage limit. No time limit. Toyota may not be on the verge of bankruptcy, but the company would not be going to such an extreme on warranty coverage if it wasn't already hurting.

Did some googling on that. I can find lots of individual Toyota dealers offering such a warranty, but nothing about it being backed by Toyota itself. A google news search on "toyota lifetime warranty" turns up nothing of relevance. [Confused]

GM on the other hand does have a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.

Just to help keep this thread on-topic, Circuit City has still not announced any plans to close the store in Springfield. [Big Grin]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-14-2008, 08:01 PM:

I apologize about the thread drift. On the topic of Circuit City, I'm surprised they kept the Wichita Falls, TX store open. It especially seemed odd considering they closed the one in Norman that had only just opened a few months ago. Perhaps their lease costs for that really nice Norman location were really high.

I paid off the 0%/3 year financing deal on my 52" Sony TV and PS3 early (over 2 years early). Figured it would be better to have that liability paid in full before any monkey business happened to the terms on the deal.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-14-2008, 08:48 PM:

quote:
A google news search on "toyota lifetime warranty" turns up nothing of relevance. [Confused] GM on the other hand does have a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.

Some people argue that if you have to offer a long warranty it's because your product is expected to fail.

And yes, Toyota doesn't offer lifetime powertrain warranties though some individual dealers do. And a quick google search shows that Toyota offers 100,000 mi powertrain warranties (for both new and their "certified used" (guess they realized we don't care for the stupid term "pre-owned").

edit: And with individual dealers offering a lifetime warranty you might want to be careful now. It wouldn't be surprising (whether any company goes under or not) to see a lot of dealers go out of business. As such, if your dealer no longer exists, the warranty you paid for will be pretty useless (since no one honors it but a business that doesn't exist).

[ 11-14-2008, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Chris Slycord ]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-14-2008, 10:40 PM:

The issue of just who is providing lifetime warranties on Toyota vehicles doesn't take away from the fact Toyota is hurting. It certainly is not doing well in the North American market.

On November 6, Toyota cut its earnings forecast for the full year to less than 1/3 of what it earned in the previous year. Linky

quote: Associated Press
TOKYO, Japan (AP) -- Toyota slashed its earnings forecast for the full year Thursday to less than a third of what it was the previous year, the latest sign that the global slowdown and strong yen are taking a toll on Japan's mighty automakers.

Toyota Motor Corp., which has been riding high on the success of its Prius hybrid and Camry sedan, also said that its July-September quarter net profit plunged 69 percent to 139.8 billion yen ($1.4 billion).

A contraction in the vital U.S. auto market, the credit crunch and recent jump in the yen from about 118 yen to a dollar a year ago to 100 yen levels have dealt a serious blow to Japan's biggest automaker.

"We are in a difficult economic climate facing a variety of risks and uncertainties, including higher energy and raw material prices," the company said in a statement.

Toyota company cut its profit forecast for the year ending March 2009 to 550 billion yen ($5.5 billion), or about half of its earlier projection of 1.25 trillion yen ($12.6 billion), and about a third of the previous year's profit of 1.72 trillion yen.

Quarterly sales dropped 8 percent to 5.98 trillion yen ($60 billion) from 6.49 trillion yen.

Even before the latest lower revisions, Toyota had been headed for its first year-on-year profit in seven years. There are no comparable numbers before Toyota's accounting change seven years ago.

Toyota, which also makes the Lexus luxury models, revised its sales forecast for the year through March 2009 to 23 trillion yen ($232 billion). That's down 12.5 percent from 26.3 trillion yen the previous year. Toyota had earlier expected 25 trillion yen ($253 billion) in sales for the fiscal year.

Although Toyota marked growth in Asia, South America and Africa, that wasn't enough to overcome the declines in Japan, North America and Europe. The nosedive was especially serious in North America, where its sales fell nearly 20 percent for the first six months of the fiscal year.

Toyota said it was wary of the global slowdown and the gyrations in currencies and stock markets. It also said competition in compact cars and other lower priced models is growing.

For the quarter ended September 30, Toyota produced 1.95 million vehicles worldwide, down 2.6 percent from 2.00 million vehicles the same period a year ago.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-14-2008, 10:44 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
The issue of just who is providing lifetime warranties on Toyota vehicles doesn't take away from the fact Toyota is hurting. It certainly is not doing well in the North American market.

Bobby Bobby Bobby... You said Toyota is providing a lifetime warranty. That does not appear to be an accurate statement. Some independent Toyota dealers are offering a lifetime warranty. There's a big difference between a warranty offered by a car dealer, and one offered by Toyota Corp. Do you want people to read your post and come away thinking Toyota is offering a lifetime warranty?

Nobody said Toyota as a company isn't hurting.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-14-2008, 11:15 PM:

Why would the car dealerships be offering lifetime warranties on cars completely on their own without any backing from Toyota itself? They're going to be cutting their throats on such a deal -especially if the buyer can get both the 0% financing deal (fat chance) and the lifetime warranty deal rolled up into a car purchase.

If it's just an independent thing, why are so many Toyota dealerships doing it? Why is a Toyota dealership here in little old Lawton, OK doing that? They wouldn't all come up with that idea coincidentally in unison. It seems like there would be some higher organizational powers at work coordinating this thing even if it doesn't immediately turn up in a Google search.

The thing I find disturbing is the tone (not just what I'm hearing here in this thread, but overall elsewhere) that average people caught up in this economic mess deserve to lose their jobs. The whole union thing makes it so much easier. Who cares about the real bad guys in this situation? We can't hate those Wall Street folks. They go to work wearing better looking clothes.

I'm pretty concerned about this thing over how it could extend to me losing my job. I have friends who manage or own car dealerships. I have friends that work at Goodyear's largest factory (a non-union shop). If a bunch of those businesses go under the fallout could eventually cost me my job. Anyone who says I deserve to lose my job can go to hell. I apologize if that sounds paranoid, but this is some pretty serious shit.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-14-2008, 11:58 PM:

Call a Toyota dealership and ask if Toyota corporate is backing the warranty themselves or if it is the dealership. The answer lies there.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-15-2008, 12:00 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Why would the car dealerships be offering lifetime warranties on cars completely on their own without any backing from Toyota itself? They're going to be cutting their throats on such a deal -especially if the buyer can get both the 0% financing deal (fat chance) and the lifetime warranty deal rolled up into a car purchase.

Why would they do it? To compete with the other dealers around town. If a bunch of dealers around your town offer lifetime warranties on the powertrain and you don't, you'll lose at least some sales. And to be fair, not all of these places would be offering them for free. Further, just because the dealer isn't being backed by the manufacturer doesn't mean they're getting screwed either. I'm pretty sure that the dealers get their parts pretty cheap from the manufacturer. Also, even though this'll change a bit, there are enough people that buy new cars every few years that giving a "lifetime" warranty is fine since most likely the powertrain won't die in the time that they keep the car (and the lifetime warranty only applies to the original owner in most cases).

quote: Bobby Henderson
If it's just an independent thing, why are so many Toyota dealerships doing it?

That's like saying "Unless there's collusion between banks, why are so many different banking chains offering ATMs?" Everyone has ATMs because it's expected. And so many Toyota dealers offer something because they think it's a good business decision.

quote: Bobby Henderson
The thing I find disturbing is the tone (not just what I'm hearing here in this thread, but overall elsewhere) that average people caught up in this economic mess deserve to lose their jobs. The whole union thing makes it so much easier. Who cares about the real bad guys in this situation? We can't hate those Wall Street folks. They go to work wearing better looking clothes.

Oh come on! No one here (despite your [bs]

claim) is saying "people deserve to lose their jobs." And if you actually are referring to stuff I said, perhaps you missed the part where I said that maybe it would be better if these other, better-performing, companies took over the plants (and thereby keeping people employed)?

And I, in fact, do care about the real bad guys of the situation. Namely, the idiots running the big three.

edit: And on a quick google search of "lifetime powertrain warranty toyota" the 2nd entry was for a dealer in the Pittsburgh area claiming to be the only Toyota dealer in Western Pennsylvania offering the lifetime warranties. If Toyota was itself doing the warranty then one would expect all the dealers in that area to offer it.

I'm done discussing this. I truly wish everyone involved in this the best though don't want to be part of a bailout.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-15-2008, 12:50 AM:

quote:
Why would they do it? To compete with the other dealers around town. If a bunch of dealers around your town offer lifetime warranties on the power-train and you don't, you'll lose at least some sales.

When you ultimately have to lose a lot of money on the deal the deal up front isn't worth it.

I can just see some guy rolling into the service dept. of Fiesta Toyota in 2023 with his 2009 beater Corolla that's seen over 100,000 miles worth of bumpy Oklahoma gravel covered section line roads wanting another free suspension and transmission rebuild. The dealer doesn't see enough profit in the sale of a car or pickup truck to cover that kind of thing -not unless someone else is subsidizing it somehow.

At my own place of work, when some clown blows in saying a competitor is pricing lighted signs way below what we charge I tell him, "buy your sign from that guy! Be my guest!" Buy that ugly piece of shit. I'd rather see a competitor cut his own throat with price cutting than me follow his lead to the bottom. I've seen a lot of "fast sign" shops come and go over the last 15 years.

quote:
Oh come on! No one here (despite your [bs] claim) is saying "people deserve to lose their jobs." And if you actually are referring to stuff I said, perhaps you missed the part where I said that maybe it would be better if these other, better-performing, companies took over the plants (and thereby keeping people employed)?

Honda, Toyota, BMW and any other foreign auto manufacturer isn't going to be taking over plants and production lines of down-on-their-luck American car companies.

None of the production line equipment will work with their product lines. At best, they would only get some use out of the freaking building. Might as well turn it into a Mega Wal-Mart.

Car companies outside of America are not in great shape. They're already producing too many cars for the lack of demand. If anything, they may be shutting down some of their non-union American plants. Because those workers are too overpaid too -and the stereotype says anything any American does is crap. They can get the work done cheaper in China.

And yeah, the whole GM can die off and who cares thing and union people are overpaid does kind of translate into those folks deserve to lose their jobs. The trouble is a lot of other non-union people fall on their swords in that situation too.

quote: Chris Slycord
And I, in fact, do care about the real bad guys of the situation. Namely, the idiots running the big three.

News flash: car companies didn't have a damned thing to do with the housing pyramid scheme that has credit lines locked in this screwed up mess. That's Wall Street and those silver spoon bastards wanting bailouts hundreds of times the size the car companies are asking. They're also the same bastards that ran up the commodities markets (like oil) to put car companies, airline companies, shipping companies and anyone else sensitive to fuel costs into the shitter.

quote: Chris Slycord
And on a quick google search of "lifetime powertrain warranty toyota" the 2nd entry was for a dealer in the Pittsburgh area claiming to be the only Toyota dealer in Western Pennsylvania offering the lifetime warranties.

Little piss-ant Lawton's Toyota dealership is offering it too. What does that mean? Dealerships in the Penn state are cheap? The problem is a multitude of Toyota dealerships are offering this deal. That cannot be entirely by coincidence. We're talking lottery odds here for lots of them yet not all doing this all at once.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 11-15-2008, 03:06 AM:

There is something that must be considered:
What is the stipulation of that lifetime warranty? The dealer always has the odds in their favor. Wait longer than 3000 miles for your oil change - must be provided by the dealer at $40 or higher - warranty void. "My transmission just went out." "Did you bring the vehicle in every 30,000 miles for the fluid and filter change?" "No." "You are S-O-L."
A dealer in the town of Slaton has been offering Tires For Life. the stipulation is that the dealer must also perform all the maintenance and tire rotations and if one is missed - No Free Tires For Life. They were charging about $45 for an oil change. A locally owned oil change franchise does that for $32.
There must be a catch with that Lifetime Warranty. The dealers know what they are doing. They are not going to intentionally cut themselves short.
I also do not want GM or Ford or Chrysler to fail. The repercussions would be felt worldwide.
With the exception of the econo-boxes, most American cars are solidly built. A well-maintained vehicle can now last 200,000 miles. 40 years ago, a car was considered "worn out" at 70,000 miles.
Most people will not keep a car for 200,000 miles.
They will trade it in about...4 or 5 years? 70,000, 80,000 miles on the odometer...
"Lifetime" in car dealer terms is ambiguous at best.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-15-2008, 09:10 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I can just see some guy rolling into the service dept. of Fiesta Toyota in 2023 with his 2009 beater Corolla that's seen over 100,000 miles worth of bumpy Oklahoma gravel covered section line roads wanting another free suspension and transmission rebuild. The dealer doesn't see enough profit in the sale of a car or pickup truck to cover that kind of thing -not unless someone else is subsidizing it somehow.

Except that your example is something of an extreme rarity. Hardly anyone does that. By the time that person is making them spend a lot, they don't care because they've already made more than their money's worth off the other people.

Consider this:
I offer lifetime warranties on the drivetrain. I've priced it as being equivalent to the amount one would expect to pay out in drivetrain repairs/replacements in the span of 12 years. Since most people replace their car much earlier than that, I make a profit on the transaction for almost everyone and the few people I don't are offset so that I still make a profit.

quote: Bobby Henderson
None of the production line equipment will work with their product lines.

I was under the impression that they could retrofit the equipment to work with their stuff.

quote: Bobby Henderson
And yeah, the whole GM can die off and who cares thing and union people are overpaid does kind of translate into those folks deserve to lose their jobs. The trouble is a lot of other non-union people fall on their swords in that situation too.

Bullshit. I never said that. FFS, I suggested (even just now) that the foreign companies take over to keep the people employed (though apparently I might have been suggesting the impossible). I brought up how they are overpaid because it explains part of the problem and explained that I think it is in the company/union's best interest to work together to get a more reasonable wage. Also, it doesn't really matter that the union already did what I'm suggesting (meaning that before the guy's were paid even more in comparison to the rest of the market).

quote: Bobby Henderson
News flash: car companies didn't have a damned thing to do with the housing pyramid scheme that has credit lines locked in this screwed up mess. That's Wall Street and those silver spoon bastards wanting bailouts hundreds of times the size the car companies are asking. They're also the same bastards that ran up the commodities markets (like oil) to put car companies, airline companies, shipping companies and anyone else sensitive to fuel costs into the shitter.

There's more to it than just that. That's what I've been saying the whole time. The problem IS NOT just due to the housing and financing debacle (though that's part of it).

And as I read in an editorial, I think if we do offer a bailout, we have to "Attach strings to force the companies to be more forward thinking, instead of following the patterns that have left them playing catch-up." As that guy was saying we "should invest enough in Detroit to prevent bankruptcies, but in exchange it needs a guarantee that GM, Chrysler and Ford will build cleaner, more fuel efficient cars and learn how to hedge bets and anticipate trends" which seems pretty reasonable rather than just giving them money.

edit:
And if these companies do go under, there very well could be a class-action lawsuit against the UAW claiming negligence and breach of contract. Why? Because in the past, instead of giving raises the union negotiated for increasing benefits. And GM never increased their revenues to compensate for the paying out of these benefits and the union people as well never looked at the numbers and said "GM can't pay this."

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-15-2008, 09:36 AM:

As usual I don't have time to read all the words posted here, but James W. nailed it on those lifetime warranties. They are likely so full of loopholes you wouldn't believe it.

I can attest that American cars are built far better than they used to be. I had an '86 Thunderbird which I bought new. I drove it for about 85,000 miles before it was wearing out. The engine was in serious need of replacement (or at least a major overhaul) when I traded it on a 1992 Ford Ranger. I couldn't believe the difference in quality. I drove the Ranger until 2000, putting over 150,000 miles on it before I traded it for a 2000 Ranger. I would still be driving that pickup today except my dad needed a newer pickup, so I took advantage of 0% financing to buy a 2002 Ranger and my dad took over the 2000. Both trucks are still going strong.

Since I got married I do a lot less driving than I did. My wife has a 2003 Escape with over 130,000 miles on it, and it still looks and runs like new. American cars are much improved over the 1970s and '80s.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-15-2008, 10:26 AM:

But the problem is that they need more than just improvement on their cars. They need new designs and more cars that get good gas mileage and/or hybrids. And GM's biggest foray into that, the Volt, is going to cost about $5,000 more than they had hoped (sending it to $35k). The reason is that only now did they realize that wiper blades and car stereos normally run off the alternator that the car won't have and they don't have enough time to make the 2010 deadline for the car and make a big redesign, so they're including a kluge they referred to as "redundant systems" which add that $5k to the price. Though apparently, the later models will have this fixed/redesigned (and hopefully be at the lower price).

Though I think it's a bit of "too little; too late."

edit:
And just to be clear, what I would like is:
1) There to be no bailout
2) The regular workers stay employed

And if it is the case that 2 can only happen when 1 isn't the case, then that's a compromise I'm willing to make. I'd just prefer what I refer to above.

[ 11-15-2008, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Chris Slycord ]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 01-16-2009, 01:22 PM:

Circuit City will liquidate remaining U.S. stores. Circuit City unable to workout a sale of the company. They said Friday it will go out of business closing its 567 stores and cutting 30,000 jobs.
Other companies driven into bankruptcy K B Toys, Mervyns and Linens 'N Things. Experts believe there will be more to come.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-16-2009, 01:49 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
American cars are much improved over the 1970s and '80s.

...wish I could agree...We, in late 2004, bought a 2001 Saturn L200 that had 39k miles on it and by last year with only 58k miles on it, it was beginning to be a maintenance/repair hog.

I went back to imports and got us a KIA Rondo ...

Course, the key word here is "cars" - it seems that the US automakers spend more attention to the truck line than their cars in terms of quality though. For I do have a '97 Chev S10 (barely broke in with 106k miles on it)that I'm greatly pleased with..and my father has a '91 with almost 300k miles on his..and haven't had any problems with either vehicle.

..Monte

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-16-2009, 05:59 PM:

I've always bought GM cars (except my very first, which was a 1973 Ford Torino), and never even considered a foreign make. My company car, however, is a Hyundai Tuscon. It's two years old and has 91,000 miles on it (and I put every single one of them on it). All I've ever done is change the oil and filters, and put one new set of tires on it. In the bitter cold we're having right now, it starts right up and hasn't given me one iota of trouble. Not one.

I'd certainly buy a Hyundai as a personal car.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 01-16-2009, 07:29 PM:

A GRAN Torino? [Smile]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-16-2009, 07:44 PM:

quote: Tim Reed
I'd certainly buy a Hyundai as a personal car.

I owned a Kia Sportage for quite a few years and it was a great little SUV.... great 4WD too! Ya couldn't stop the thing no matter what. However, I wouldn't ever consider a Korean Car ever again for any reason.

Mark

Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 01-16-2009, 08:16 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I owned a Kia Sportage for quite a few years and it was a great little SUV.... great 4WD too! Ya couldn't stop the thing no matter what. However, I wouldn't ever consider a Korean Car ever again for any reason.

, did I miss something? Anything happened with Hyundai or Daewoo or koreans in general I didn't catch?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-16-2009, 08:25 PM:

(Mark likes his LR too well now....)

Got a friend over in Seoul for the AirForce and even with 22mil people in that town, he feels more safer in that town than being back home in this area... and he drives a Daewoo Prince and a Harley.

Chevy Aveos are a captive import made by Daewoo..

(sorry to drift this more off-topic but do agree abut Circuit City - it seems that their customer PR was never the greatest - there were far better places to get your wares at .. but not at BestBuy ...lol)

-Monte

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-17-2009, 01:37 AM:

News tonite announced that ALL CC stores will be closed by April. Liquidation sales are starting as early as tomorrow.....

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 01-17-2009, 02:00 AM:

I stopped in a local one a month or two ago during the 60-70% discount range, and the DVDs were still more expensive than they were on amazon. Sadly that was about all that was left.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-17-2009, 10:35 AM:

quote: James Westbrook
A GRAN Torino?

No, mine was just a regular Torino, which weren't as common. The Gran Torino had a rounder grill and front-end design, with ranch-type stylings, while mine was a muscle/sports car.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-17-2009, 12:22 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
News tonite announced that ALL CC stores will be closed by April. Liquidation sales are starting as early as tomorrow.....

Add another 30,000 people to the unemployment stats.

Thankfully, a third party company maintains the extended warranties on products sold by Circuit City. Of course, most people choose not to spend a bunch of money betting against the product they're buying in the first place.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 01-17-2009, 08:09 PM:

Local news here says all CC stores will be closed no later than March 31. Only 300 or so employees left here in combined corp offices and stores. A while back the newspaper interviewed one of the past CEOs (there are quite a few) about what CCs worst mistakes were--not in any particular order--he admitted that DIVX cost them more than $200 million, dropped major appliances, sold their in house financing arm, spun off CarMax, remodeled stores several times in a short time, failed to recognize Best Buy as a formidable competitor in time, kept their high pressure commissioned sales staff too long. There were more.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-17-2009, 08:54 PM:

I would guess that Circuit City's biggest problem is not being Wal-Mart.

Wal-Mart has already trashed small-town American business, it only follows that bigger fish will now be fried. Enjoy those low prices, folks!

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 01-17-2009, 09:15 PM:

quote: Bill Enos
kept their high pressure commissioned sales staff too long

He must have misspoken. I'm sure he meant to say "Waited too long to fire our most senior and knowledgeable sales staff and replace them with junior nitwits".

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 01-17-2009, 10:07 PM:

Best Buy's success would indicate that most customers apparently want order takers without excess product knowledge. CCs commissioned sales people would stay on your heels, moving when you moved, very annoying and you couldn't get rid of them. The only way to avoid them was to keep moving, if you paused to look at something at least 3 of them would jump you.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-18-2009, 01:24 AM:

I don't think it is as simple as blaming Wal-Mart for the death of CC, although it certainly was at least a factor.

From a personal example, Wal-Mart NEVER sold the kind of HDTV I bought. Wal-Mart tends to sell cheaper, entry level HDTV sets. Not HDTV models costing $3000 at discount or $4500 list price. Wal-Mart doesn't stock a lot of PS3 consoles either -they sure never stocked a lot of the 80GB models like the one I purchased (although to be fair, I did see a few 80GB Metal Gear Solid 4 bundle packages and a few 160GB PS3 systems recently).

Circuit City sold more high end products. Even more than Best Buy did. I bought my Sony Bravia XBR4 52" TV from Circuit City only because their location in Wichita Falls, TX had that kind of TV in stock while Best Buy expected me to wait for weeks for them to get one into their location. Same goes for the 80GB PS3. The problem with CC is they didn't leverage their higher end focus properly. A store like Ultimate Electronics is better geared for that. People go into stores of that chain expecting to find really high end items. CC carried some of the same kinds of gear, but with a more mid-range sort of kind of focus. CC didn't clearly know which segment of the market they were trying to reach. So they ended up losing out completely across the board.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 01-19-2009, 10:12 AM:

One thing I never liked about Circuit City is that if you saw a good item on sale cheap in their ad in the Sunday paper and went down to the store to buy it, the first thing they'd try to do is to talk you into buying something else.

Not exactly "bait and switch" but they did put a lotta pressure on you to change your mind.

In the end, whenever I saw something at C-City I wanted to buy, I'd do a little research on the product and if I decided to purchase it I'd do so online through Circuit City's website and then just go down to the store to pick it up about an hour later. That way I never had to deal with the salespeople since the pickup was at a loading dock.

One of my friends worked there for a short time. Said it "really sucked" as a place to work.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 01-19-2009, 02:05 PM:

Wal Mart and Best Buy did not kill Circuit City. CC committed suicide by drifting away from its long established core business and products and thus gave the competitors an edge.

I've known a couple of people who worked in the CC corp. office and both said they were very oppressive. Speaking to a co worker about non company business at other than a break or lunch would get you called on the carpet.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-19-2009, 02:12 PM:

Got too complacent, it looks like. They weren't planning on what the future would hold for them.

Seen many businesses do that - get too comfortable in their operations and not taking advantage in seeking out new avenues to grow into..to stay alive.

Or, a business buys another business that is a debt hog anyway and have ideas in turing that debt hog into gold, but fails at the attempt both go under real quick.

And then, these businesses blame the 'big box' stores for their demise..

-Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-19-2009, 05:55 PM:

quote: Jim Cassedy
One thing I never liked about Circuit City is that if you saw a good item on sale cheap in their ad in the Sunday paper and went down to the store to buy it, the first thing they'd try to do is to talk you into buying something else.

They were never that way here in Salt Lake City. What they did try to ram down your throat in this neck of the woods was the service contract. Now that CC is gone it'll be fun to watch the local BB's raise their margins... and probably by quite a bit.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-19-2009, 08:34 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
What they did try to ram down your throat in this neck of the woods was the service contract. Now that CC is gone it'll be fun to watch the local BB's raise their margins... and probably by quite a bit.

...and I've heard that BestBuy is following this trend pretty hard since they have no competition now along with being the worst company to work for.

As an employee, you're right next to an work ethic of a car salesman with pushing whatever you can to make a sale, close the deal and to force on these service contracts to the customers...

-Monte

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 01-20-2009, 10:20 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
work ethic of a car salesman

WTF does that mean?

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 01-20-2009, 11:13 AM:

He explained that in the rest of the sentence. He's pointing out that a lot of car salesmen will do anything to get a sale and that a lot of the workers are doing much the same.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 01-20-2009, 01:40 PM:

A guy I know in the Warranty business has told me to do the following with regards to store service contracts.

He said when they ask you if you want the contract to ask them to see the contract of coverage. When they reply that you'll get it in the mail ask how you are supposed to buy it when you don't know what's covered and what's not covered. Then enjoy the stunned silence on their face.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 01-20-2009, 02:38 PM:

quote: Chris Slycord
He's pointing out that a lot of car salesmen will do anything to get a sale

So just a lot of them but not all???? So all salesmen should fall into this catagory???

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-20-2009, 04:03 PM:

Used car salesmen are afraid of only one species: theatre equipment dealer. (That's me!) Louis

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 01-20-2009, 04:04 PM:

quote: Richard Hamilton
So all salesmen should fall into this catagory???

No. Car dealers are especially known for flat out lying to get people to buy a car from them. For instance, a Toyota/Scion dealer I asked a salesman about buying a certain Scion model. He told me that they didn't have the car on the premises and that it getting one in would be sporadic due to a production plant being taken down and relocated. None of that was true. They had the car on the lot and there was no plant that closed down. He did that because only the Scion salesmen can sell you a Scion and so he (being a Toyota salesman) would get no commission if I bought one.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 01-20-2009, 05:35 PM:

quote: Chris Slycord
Car dealers are especially known for flat out lying to get people to buy a car from them. For instance, a Toyota/Scion dealer I asked a salesman about buying a certain Scion model. He told me that they didn't have the car on the premises and that it getting one in would be sporadic due to a production plant being taken down and relocated. None of that was true. They had the car on the lot and there was no plant that closed down. He did that because only the Scion salesmen can sell you a Scion and so he (being a Toyota salesman) would get no commission if I bought one.

HAHA so one guy maybe lied to you and now ALL car salesmen are bad???

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-20-2009, 05:46 PM:

I could say something really inflammatory right now but I'll resist. [Smile]

Ahh, so CarMax was once a part of Circuit City..that explains a lot about the horrible experience I had there last November.. too many details to go in here, but let's just say CARMAX is the WORST bunch of liars, cheats and dishonest folks I have ever dealt with..even worse than some former theatre owners. [Smile]

If Carmax is "The way car buying should be." (their slogan) then they hopefully will be next to go under. [fu]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-20-2009, 06:07 PM:

quote: Richard Hamilton
ALL car salesmen are bad???

My brother in law had a salesman at a big Ford dealer in Billings tell him the new models were "not available yet" in order to get him to buy one they had on the floor. So he drove to Forsyth and our local dealer (which has three VERY GOOD car salesmen) ordered him the new model he wanted and gave him a better price than the one in the big dealership to boot.

My wife had a car salesman calling her at work and at home daily, even though she said she was NOT interested, to the point she finally had to call the dealership and complain to the manager to get the guy off her back.

A good friend of mine worked for a Toyota dealership in Billings; he quit after one month because, he said, "My conscience wouldn't allow me to do the things they wanted me to do."

So...no they're not all bad, but there are a lot of bad ones.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-20-2009, 06:21 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
My wife had a car salesman calling her at work and at home daily, even though she said she was NOT interested, to the point she finally had to call the dealership and complain to the manager to get the guy off her back.

We went though the same thing when we bought the Hummer... Hard salesman tactics, incessant calls some from the sales manager and they wouldn't even give us all the GM rebate towards it! We walked out and bought a slightly used but same model year H-3 from Thrifty Car Rental the next morning, it had 9600 miles on it or there abouts. The salesman called me again that after noon and I told him we already bought one and saved 15 grand over his price. Funny thing is that this dealer still has to repair it even though they didn't sell it to me... it came with an automatically transfered 100K mile warranty!! I've taken it in once to have them fix a rattle. I loved tooting my horn on the way out when I passed that salesman on the lot [Big Grin]

.

Mark

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 01-20-2009, 06:30 PM:

quote: Richard Hamilton
HAHA so one guy maybe lied to you and now ALL car salesmen are bad???

1) The guy did lie to me. There is no "maybe" in the situation.
2) Where in the world did you infer that my feeling is due to this instance and it alone? Hint: Friends and family have had similar experiences.

Really, when I said "for instance" that meant that this was ONE EXAMPLE (or "one instance") but somehow you missed that.

3) Where did I say "all salesmen" are bad? I didn't. Sure, I said that the profession in general is known for being a bit bad, but that in no way implies that every single one of them is bad.

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 01-20-2009, 06:30 PM:

Mark, most dealerships make more money on the service (even warranty service) than they do on the sales, except if they really stick it to you with the purchase price. [sex]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-20-2009, 06:53 PM:

quote:
most dealerships make more money on the service (even warranty service) than they do on the sales,

Why it's a good idea to really know some auto/electrical mechanics so you don't have to head to any shop and dealership for such work ..... besides, it more comforting to know what you did and did the job right instead of depending on just the word "we got it right."

(Boy, did I open up a can of stinky worms here..lol) Actually, there is no such thing as a 'bad salesman' - it's just the rules of the company whom they work for when it comes to sales, and where it a totally commissioned based occupation - really, it's a matter of life or death for each of those salesmen if a sale isn't made...since they totally depend on each other (as a team) to earn money for each other..

At least with the BB employees, they do make a wage, but get something off the sales - how they can make the extra dough - why I said earlier on " next to the car salesman..", but failed to put the word, "almost" .. my apologies.

I'm sure that the salesmen wants to be honest with their customers, but when you got your boss, who sits up in the tower overlooking everything in sight and is glaring at you like an eagle waiting to pounce on a mouse, it's an "either/or situation" here...

-Monte

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-20-2009, 07:28 PM:

When I bought my receiver at Best Buy, I asked them if they'd even be interested in selling it to me despite my not wanting the warranty. They didn't give a shit. I think their job is to only make the customer aware that the warranty exists and what it covers. It definitely didn't used to be this way many years back where they wouldn't even sell you the product if you didn't seem interested in the warranty.

For car salespeople, just threaten to walk away or give them a bad review. They'll move heaven and earth for you to avoid that.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-20-2009, 09:31 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
They didn't give a shit.

To be fair about electronics salespeople, I've always just said "No, thanks" to the extended warranty and usually they give up right then...I only had one instance where a guy tried to "insist," and after I said no a second time he dropped it.

We just bought a new TV from a department store in Miles City (not a chain) (yes, we have joined the big flat screen club) and the guy didn't even ask us about the extended warranty! So we're going to shop there exclusively in the future.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 01-21-2009, 02:29 PM:

I'll have to agree with Tony on CarMax. I went there a several. years ago, the worst car shopping experience I've ever had. The sales rep didn't want me to go on the lot until he showed me what he wanted me to buy on the computer. The car was for my wife and she had said she wanted a Buick LeSabre, late 90s--early 2000s. On the computer he showed me Toyotas, Mercurys, Cadillacs, a Lexus, anything but what I specified, finally I went out the door to the car lot and found several Buicks that fit the bill, why he wouldn't show them I don't know. It didn't matter though, their price was around $2200. higher than anywhere else. The asshole followed me to my car still trying to sell me something else.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 02-24-2009, 03:34 PM:

Yahoo posted this story about warning people about Circuit City closeout deals: No Refunds on Broken gear. It told about outraged shoppers who thought they could get a great deal on equipment from Circuit City. Circuit City won't let you open sealed boxes to inspect merchandise. All Sales Final, No Refunds, No Exchanges. Even if the equipment is damaged [Eek!]

Two of the stories were of people buying large screen TVs and getting them home for find that screens were shattered.

Yahoo Tech

[Eek!]

Buyer Beware [Eek!]

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 02-24-2009, 05:02 PM:

I don't imagine your credit card company would let them get away with that.

--jhawk

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-24-2009, 05:55 PM:

jhawk, the credit card company will only try to "charge back" the merchant, and if they are under bankruptcy protection, the charge back won't clear. So you're still stuck. And trust me, the card companies don't exactly fall over themselves in doing a charge back.

Even small claims court won't help if the company declares bankruptcy. [thumbsdown]

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 02-24-2009, 09:11 PM:

The furniture, and all equipment in the corp. office is going now. Literally, anything that isn't permanently attached to the building is for sale, if it isn't priced, make an offer. Somethings that ARE attached to the building but can be unscrewed are going.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-24-2009, 09:20 PM:

quote: Bill Gabel
Two of the stories were of people buying large screen TVs and getting them home for find that screens were shattered.

If I was buying something expensive like a big-screen TV on an "all sales final" closeout deal, I would be opening the carton in the store before going to the checkout counter to make sure it isn't damaged. If it fails to work upon getting it home, the manufacturer's warranty should cover....although the buyer might spend all of his savings paying shipping costs to the "nearest authorized service station."

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 02-26-2009, 08:13 PM:

Tomorrow, Feb. 27 is the last day for buying stuff in the offices. What is left will become property of building owners. A couple friends bought 6 low hours HD video projectors that were in conference rooms for $100. each complete with screens if they wanted them. Had to take them down but that only takes about 4 minutes. The place was full of surveilence cameras that apparently were used to watch employees while they worked. The cameras were $5.00 each, fist sized, color high rez. Furniture and thousands of cubicles dirt cheap. Bring a truck. Stores will be open thru Saturday.

Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 03-02-2009, 03:47 PM:

I was in the Champaign, IL store yesterday. They had a countdown...8 days left.

They had 3/4 of the store blocked off and completely empty of anything. What was left was mostly crap at prices I wouldn't have paid if they were the regular price, let alone 40-70 percent off.

There were large boxes of cables, speaker wire, and what not that I didn't see prices on. I'm guessing it was all used stuff from store displays.

There were still about a dozen display TV's.

Lots of people were looking, though.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-02-2009, 05:02 PM:

I visited CC a couple days ago. About half the store was roped off. There were a lot of DVDs and CDs still for sale, a lot of other general crap. They did have a bunch of Panasonic plasma TVs in factory boxes sitting on the sales floor, labeled 40% off. I googled the prices, found plenty of other sellers at about the same prices, so they were no particular bargain. Also stacks of Guitar Hero or some such thing.