Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Talker shot during Benjamin Button

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Posted by Geoff Jones (Member # 3668) on 12-26-2008, 08:47 PM:

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20081226_Phila__man_shot_because_family_talked_during_movie.html

quote:
A South Philadelphia man enraged because a father and son were talking during a Christmas showing of The Curious Case of Benjamin Button took care of the situation when he pulled a .380-caliber gun and shot the father, police said.
James Joseph Cialella Jr., 29, of the 1900 block of Hollywood Street is charged with attempted murder, aggravated assault, and weapons violations.

"It's truly frightening when you see something like this evolve into such violence," said police spokesman Lt. Frank Vanore.

Police were called to the Riverview Theatre in the 1400 block of Columbus Boulevard about 9:30 p.m. where the gunshot victim, a Philadelphia man who was not identified, told police a man sitting near him told his family to be quiet and threw popcorn at his son.

After exchanging words, Vanore said Cialella allegedly got out of his seat to confront the family when the father got up to protect them. That's when the victim was shot once in the left arm, sending others in the theatre running to safety.

Cialella then sat down to watch the movie. Police arrived a short time later and arrested Cialella and confiscated his weapon, Vanore said.

On Yelp, there are numerous posts complaining about the talking at the theatre. Here's one example:

http://www.yelp.com/biz/united-artist-theatre-riverview-plaza-philadelphia

quote:

Aside from that, this theater is terrible. Nothing ruins your movie going experience faster than jackasses having LOUD conversations, people letting their kids be loud and obnoxious, jackasses checking their text messages during the film.

I'm normally not one to blame companies for stupid things that people do, but for f*ck's sake, the management of the theatre could have sent an usher in to shut people up once and a while. [Frown]

Posted by Eric Hooper (Member # 1730) on 12-26-2008, 08:59 PM:

What, so the "ushers" can get shot too? Do movie theatres even have "ushers" anymore. Never see such a thing at any theatres around here.

Posted by Geoff Jones (Member # 3668) on 12-26-2008, 09:31 PM:

You're probably right. Probably best for those of us who care to just stay home and wait for the DVD.

I shushed, and occasionally threw out, talkers when I worked at a theatre in Memphis as a teenager. But that was 20 years ago.

[Frown]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-26-2008, 11:30 PM:

We "shush" talkers and cell-phoners here and have escorted a number of them out over the years. So now all it takes is a walk down the aisles once in a while and everyone is generally well-behaved.

The solution of course is go to another theatre that enforces the rules; and if that's not possible, then complain to the management about the jackasses and KEEP COMPLAINING until something is done, going to the top of the heirarchy if necessary.

Once the jackasses find out that bad behavior will not be tolerated, they will stop. Why turn your business over to idiots?

If the complaints and etc. don't get any action and the theatre eventually goes out of business, they deserve what they get.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-27-2008, 01:42 AM:

I know of one "indie" single screen cinema who has a devil of a time to control the patrons on celphone usage..and it comes from the owner who wants to be friends with all the patrons instead of showing the patrons that this is a place of business, not a gang/hangout place.

Guess you can say - the atmosphere of chaos exist there.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-28-2008, 04:29 AM:

Mike's got it right. Lay it right at the feet of incompetent management who won't make it a priority to patrol the auditoria regularly and make it known that any behavior which disturbs other patrons will result in a door slamming behind that perp's sorry ass. Post it on signs, print it on your tickets, and then enforce it. It won't take very long before people will get tired of being thrown out on their butts every time they start acting disruptively.

Here you have a theatre that evidently has already gotten a reputation for being one crappy place to see a movie, and precisely because of patrons' rude behavior. So along with a patron getting shot in the arm, the theatre is shooting itself in the foot by bad management. They think they are saving money by not hiring enough ushers and assistant managers and even security guards whose primary function is to deal with rowdy idiots. When in fact, by NOT enforcing policy, they are destroying their customer base.

Just look at all the comments on that review page -- people who the theatre has already lost as patrons, all telling other potential patrons in no uncertain terms to avoid that theatre like the plague. Obviously people hate the place, and rightfully so. The one major reason that people give when asked why they have developed an "I'll wait till it comes out on DVD" attitude, just like Geoff said, is precisely because of ill-behaved patrons in a theatre that tolerates it.

And sorry to say, Eric, but being afraid to enforce basic policy rules because someone might get shot, that's not the answer. That means you're paralyzed and just throwing up your hands letting the inmates run the asylum. By that measure, you would let people have anything they want from the concessions for free for fear that your servers might get shot. If you don't draw the line in the sand someplace, you wind up with a theatre like this theatre in question were the locals all know it's a terrible place to go and admonish everyone to stay away. How long do you think they can generate enough business to keep the doors opened if they continue to let patrons rule the place and drive others away?

Theatres too cheap to hire proper security deserve to have the place turn into whatever lawless hell hole the patrons turn it into. It's gross mis-management, pure and simple.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-28-2008, 09:03 AM:

We had some idiots talking and laughing at the end of Marley & Me the other day. Very frustrating. I wished I had had one of Frank's water guns with ink in it. [Mad]

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 12-28-2008, 10:16 AM:

I wish they'd start shooting people who text message during the show. Very distracting!

Posted by Eric Hooper (Member # 1730) on 12-28-2008, 11:04 AM:

I remember seeing Legal Eagles in 1986(?) at the Dublin Cinema in Dublin, CA. At the time, it was a small town with two small town theatres. In the lobby stood a armed county sherrif patrol just there to "keep the peace". How come I don't see this at theatres today?

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 12-28-2008, 04:12 PM:

Biggest offenders in my theatre?

Little Old Broads. They've lost a good deal of their hearing, won't admit it, and are constantly asking each other what is going on. Annoying as hell. I have to say, even though she's nowhere near my theatre, my mother is one of the worst offenders. I usually have to shush her several times a movie.

It constantly surprises me that that people of every age seem to think their conversations can't be heard by other people. They aren't trying to be rude, they just don't get it. I blame a good bit of this on cell phones as people seem to think they've entered a cone of silence whenever they take a call in public.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 12-28-2008, 04:20 PM:

And just like in Get Smart, that Cone of Silence never worked.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 12-28-2008, 04:34 PM:

Maybe if they kept their phones in their shoes it would be less of a problem;>

Posted by Caleb Johnstone-Cowan (Member # 3710) on 12-28-2008, 10:33 PM:

The company I work for have introduced this:

http://www.myvue.com/over18s/

Our guests pay extra for the over 18 screening, and in return we usher it and kick anyone out who makes a disturbance.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-29-2008, 10:17 AM:

That sounds like an excellent idea. How are the customers responding to it?

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 12-29-2008, 10:26 AM:

Well according to Sharon it's a wonderful idea...

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 12-29-2008, 12:43 PM:

quote: Eric Hooper
What, so the "ushers" can get shot too? Do movie theatres even have "ushers" anymore. Never see such a thing at any theatres around here.

That can be a big worry, can't it.
However every time I've read one of these stories (anyone remember the guy who got stabbed in the foot down in LA for putting his feet on the seat in front of him?) it's always a maniac getting provoked by another audience member.
I firmly believe that if the ushers are firm but fair and don't instigate fights they're a lot safer than your average pissed off customer.

quote: Mike Blakesley
Once the jackasses find out that bad behavior will not be tolerated, they will stop.

Exactly!
The audience needs to be trained. If you've been open for 4 years letting outside food slide by the door and gum flapping in your auditoriums you've got a tough row to hoe. Expect to spend about a year retraining the customer base -- as long as you're not an a$$hole it'll work and your per-caps will be better.

A theater should never just accept that they're the "ghetto" theater (unless they actually are, you know, like a porn house or in a dead shopping center) and should strive for a specific atmosphere.
If you show indie films don't try and mix too much because the kids will piss off your indie crowd.

If you're a megaplex you're stuck pretending you're a family place.

quote: Martin McCaffery
I have to say, even though she's nowhere near my theatre, my mother is one of the worst offenders. I usually have to shush her several times a movie.

That reminded me of an incident a few years ago...had to eject my father from a film -- a guest had complained someone was smoking in the theater and guess who it was...

Posted by Caleb Johnstone-Cowan (Member # 3710) on 12-29-2008, 03:20 PM:

The response to the screenings has been positive, I've got a feeling those comments and videos on the website are from our cinema. Well worth a look at, especially if you can interlock as that way your staff can upsell to the premium screening.

Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 12-29-2008, 06:56 PM:

Caleb, why pay a premium for a show without disturbances? It should be expected. If I went to a theater and there were continuously disruptive patrons that the ushers didn't get rid of, I would be mad. I've thrown out dozens of patrons for unruly behavior, from talking to text messaging on their phone to jangling keys loudly constantly and more. If the staffers can't do that, they should probably look for an easier job.

That being said, the family from that article may very well have learned their lesson. The guy didn't deserve to be shot, but maybe the kid won't grow up to be a brat because his dad got shot in a theater for being a jackass.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-29-2008, 07:06 PM:

To be fair, kids in the theatre cause disturbances that happen just because they are kids. They're restless, bored, tired, whatever and can't help it. It's not their fault. This is a big difference from cell-phoning teenages who just need to be taught.

If I was attending a "family" film I would be happy to pay a premium to have a kid-free show. In fact I wish we could do an adults-only evening on the Disney/Pixar movies, but of course with 1 screen it's impossible.

Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 12-29-2008, 08:56 PM:

Well, Mike, that is certainly true, but there is a certain limit to how much children should be able to get away with. Also, the parents need to be held accountable for removing their children of their own volition before it becomes necessary for the theater to take action. Oftentimes, though, they are more interested in watching the movie, regardless of disturbance caused by their brat, than they are in being decent members of society.

I don't know, maybe we as a society should just stigmatize talking in a theater to such a great degree that theater talkers are shunned by neighbors and former friends, and their mothers pretend not to know them. Perhaps make it akin to... wait, that is just the problem. Our society is too indulgent and people just behave however they feel like without thought to courtesy. I guess theater talking is actually low on the list of indecent things people do.

Posted by William Leland III (Member # 1400) on 12-29-2008, 09:31 PM:

this happened back in 1998. i was an usher at a theatre watching a movie on my day off. maybe about 10 people in the show.

about half way threw the movie these damn little kids kept playing hide and go seek in the theatre. there was 3 of them, they would run in, sit for a few minutes until the other kid ran in, then all run out again. this went on for about 10 mintues. i was pissed.

one kid ran in and sat in a few chairs in front of me. i walked up to him, grabed his arm and looked him in the face and said " i work here, stop playing and watch the movie or ill ban u from the theatre". he said nothing. i told him to say "yes sir". and he did. i sat back down. he stayed the whole time, his friends never came back. would of loved to yelled at them all.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 12-29-2008, 10:15 PM:

I don't interpret this as a management issue at all. Training the customers, patrolling auditoriums, setting a standard - all nice ideas. Except that this was Christmas night. People act weird Christmas night. People come to the theatre that haven't been there for a year or better on Christmas night; they wouldn't know or care about how you've "trained" the rest of your customers. I bet all of us who work in a theatre had customers this Christmas day that had not been there since the last Christmas. People get depressed, drunk, stressed, etc., etc. on Christmas and all bets are off. This seems to me like a guy had a bad day and snapped. There is absolutely nothing management can do to prevent someone from losing it.

Posted by Geoff Jones (Member # 3668) on 12-29-2008, 11:13 PM:

I would agree with you Chad, except for the fact that you can numerous complaints about talking at that theatre at several sites, like the stuff at Yelp I mentioned in post #1.

Posted by Edwin Schwing (Member # 1270) on 12-30-2008, 06:05 AM:

Remember the topic thread here.

SOMEONE WAS SHOT! The talker could have as easily been the one with the gun to shoot the "shusher".

Someone had a GUN in the theatre, and we are worried about management not doing their job? Until we are the TSA, (ha ha) what is an usher to do? Get shot possibly?

While of course most people don't carry side arms to a movie theatre, how do you know which ones do? How do you know which ones will simply blow your head off if you ARE the manager and you "politely ask them to be quiet".

Things like this are unexpected, and unfortunately you hear about things like this happening on occasion. It is probably better that a patron was shot rather than a 16 year old usher. ( I hate to say it).

I am NOT saying that you should let everyone talk and text on their phones, I am saying, how was this Management's fault?

E

Posted by Geoff Jones (Member # 3668) on 12-30-2008, 10:38 AM:

Management isn't at fault, the people at fault were the ones who grew the trees that were used to make the cardboard box that the bullets came in!

In all seriousness, I have seen post after post about talking at that theatre. Management isn't responsible for the guy getting shot. But they are fully responsible for creating a hostile, unpleasant environment wholly unsuited for watching a movie.

I am sorry that the guy got shot, but I'm glad for the attention this is getting in the press. Hopefully some good will come of it all and people will realize that they need to be respectful in a public audience. And negligent managements will realize they need to do more.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-30-2008, 03:11 PM:

Like restaurants, movie theaters are in the business of providing a good "let's get out of the house" experience. Many good quality restaurants understand just how critical the quality of the dining environment is to their business. Unfortunately too many theaters just think they're selling generic widgets rather than a movie going experience.

Theater managers are in charge of managing more than employees and operations. They're in charge of managing customers too -from the angle of customer service. The task of kicking some jerk out of the theater is an act of customer management in order to maintain good customer service.

Warren Theaters has a zero tolerance policy on cellular phone use. They warn customers that violators can be ejected from the theater without a refund.

quote: Chad Souder
I don't interpret this as a management issue at all. Training the customers, patrolling auditoriums, setting a standard - all nice ideas. Except that this was Christmas night. People act weird Christmas night. People come to the theatre that haven't been there for a year or better on Christmas night; they wouldn't know or care about how you've "trained" the rest of your customers.

A busy holiday doesn't give theater management the slack to sluff off on enforcing policies to maintain an acceptable movie going environment.

People who haven't been to the theater in a year or more are probably not the ones known for being disruptive either. Rather, the noisy ones (often unruly teens) are seen at the theater much more often and give those once a year visitors valid cause to keep visiting only once a year or perhaps not come back to the theater at all.

A major holiday like Christmas is an opportunity for management to get its act together and provide a good movie going experience to win back the business of infrequent customers. That needs to be the goal rather than letting the few assholes among the audience do whatever they like.

quote: Edwin Schwing
Someone had a GUN in the theatre, and we are worried about management not doing their job? Until we are the TSA, (ha ha) what is an usher to do? Get shot possibly? While of course most people don't carry side arms to a movie theatre, how do you know which ones do? How do you know which ones will simply blow your head off if you ARE the manager and you "politely ask them to be quiet".

If every audience member has to be treated as if he might have a gun the theater might as well give up and close for good. The vast majority of audience members are unarmed. Even most of the jerks won't be willing to get physical. Although the idea of someone brandishing a gun in a theater is scary that's also going to be a very rare occurrence.

Management must be willing to confront rudely behaving customers and deal with the situation in a professional manner -even if that means getting security or the police involved. If management is not willing to deal with such situations they'll ruin their product: the movie-going experience. When the product is disrupted, unpleasant crap the good, courteous customers will just be encouraged to stay at home and see the movie on DVD or Blu-ray instead.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 12-31-2008, 09:23 PM:

That yelp site has fewer than 30 reviews posted prior to the shooting. That is a very small sample pool and sites like that lean towards complaint-based comments. I'm not saying its completely invalid - I've never been to that theatre - but it is something to consider.

I think the blame of this story goes largely on the adults involved: the parents for not keeping their kids quiet and teaching them manners and the 29 year old for flipping out and shooting someone. Blaming the theatre management for not ensuring parents are keeping their own children quiet just doesn't make sense to me. It would be a little different if there was evidence that the shooter had previously complained to a worker and they did nothing. Routine aisle checks and policy trailers don't impact everyone.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-01-2009, 01:37 AM:

Some of the clear reality of multiplex movie going is very much being painfully ignored.

Most movie theater locations and their respective management don't give the first rat's ass about what happens in the auditorium. They'll only move into "damage control" when some customer gets his skull broke open by some other psychopathic S.O.B. 99% of the time they're not going to bother to get involved, much less perform any duties of auditorium management.

The statement still holds 100% strong: if you do not have the stones to manage your auditoriums, including throwing out the assholes who disrupt the movie, then you need to get another freaking job.

Go to a lot of theaters and you'll see so many cellphones lighting up that it looks more like the audience is reacting to some live concert ballad rather than just watching a movie. Ushers aren't coming into the theater more than once or twice during the show (if at all).

On that last point, some of that problem is out of the hands of the theater location's management and more to do with the company's higher-ups. A lot of movie theaters are purposefully very under-staffed from the guise of improving profit margins. Those corporate honchos don't seem to realize the lack of employees on site often translates into poor customer service. Usually it means having to wait a long time in line to buy your ticket or get some snacks, but it also affects a theater's ability to check auditoriums for problems with the movie, including problem customers.

[ 01-01-2009, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Bobby Henderson ]

Posted by Caleb Johnstone-Cowan (Member # 3710) on 01-02-2009, 10:31 PM:

quote: Galen Murphy-Fahlgren
Caleb, why pay a premium for a show without disturbances? It should be expected. If I went to a theater and there were continuously disruptive patrons that the ushers didn't get rid of, I would be mad. I've thrown out dozens of patrons for unruly behavior, from talking to text messaging on their phone to jangling keys loudly constantly and more. If the staffers can't do that, they should probably look for an easier job.

We expect our guests to be respectful during any show and if people are constantly disruptive we will deal with it. However the idea behind the over 18s is removing the low level of disturbance you get from families and teens in certain films that even a screen with several ushers in it couldn't deal with. Besides if there is a demand for this service then why shouldn't the company I work for satisfy it? It might help get people away from their living rooms and back to spending with us.