Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Michael Jackson has passed away

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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 06-25-2009, 04:55 PM:

Michael Jackson has passed away in Los Angeles today from a heart attack. He was 50 years old.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-25-2009, 05:07 PM:

Now that's a shock.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-25-2009, 05:55 PM:

I knew he'd get out of playing those concerts in Great Britain somehow!!!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-25-2009, 06:13 PM:

Other reports are saying Jackson is in a coma, perhaps a severe coma from several minutes or longer without oxygen due to cardiac arrest.

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 06-25-2009, 06:30 PM:

Why do I get the feeling his death is going to have the same affect on internet forums as Steve Irwin's? People are already acting the same "No, we don't know he's dead, it is just a rumor."

CNN.com is saying he is dead now and that he was in a coma. Shocking, but not terribly tragic.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-25-2009, 06:35 PM:

Yes, the L.A. Coroner's office finally gave official confirmation of the news.

Sad news, but not very surprising considering all the turmoil surrounding the guy's life over the last decade. One report said Jackson was $500 million in debt.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-25-2009, 06:38 PM:

At 4pm today on the radio, the announcer mentions of paramedics rushing him to a hospital since he had a cardiac arrest...

..then the wife calls me and said that he died....

"Whoo!" what a week for the "Threes": Ed McMahon on Tuesday at the age of 86, Fawcett Thursday at the age of 62, and now, Jackson also on Thursday at the age of 50.

I bet all of the pressures related to that horrible debt finally overwhelmed him...

..signs of the times...

-Monte

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 06-25-2009, 06:45 PM:

They always die in threes. Recently however they have been dying in bigger groups it seems. Maybe this week will bring four. I hope not.

Posted by Allison Parsons (Member # 2728) on 06-25-2009, 07:00 PM:

CNN is reporting he is back from the dead, ready to reinact Thriller.

Ok, bad joke. There goes my favorite childhood singer. I'll have to break out the E.T. and MJ box set I have on LP tonight. R.I.P

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-25-2009, 07:15 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson from the 'Farrah Fawcett dies at 62' thread
Wow. We lose Ed McMahon this week. And now Farrah. They say tragedies happen in threes. I hate to think of who could be next.

Well, now we know. [Frown]

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 06-25-2009, 07:32 PM:

Pepsi is shooting off fireworks in his honor tonight

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-25-2009, 07:38 PM:

Chad...you may not have liked him but someone has indeed died who was someone's son, brother, father and this thread is about that person.

Show some respect, will you?

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 06-25-2009, 08:00 PM:

So it begins....

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 06-25-2009, 08:09 PM:

Chip,

You mother most likely never took the time to tell you "If you cannot say anything nice. it is better not say anything"

-Claude

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 06-25-2009, 08:12 PM:

quote: John Wilson
Well, now we know

A bunch of folks tried to add Goldblum as a fourth, with rumours of his death here in New Zealand. Nothing but a hoax, move along, nothing to see...

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-25-2009, 08:24 PM:

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
If you cannot say anything nice. it is better not say anything"

...what was said in "Bambi" (1942), when Thumper's mother got after him after his comment about Bambi's struggle to stand being a newborn..

Mother:"What did your father tell you?"

Thumper:"If you can't say anything nice ...(sigh)..don't say anything at all..!"

I like the "Off the Wall" and definitely the "Thriller" albums - esp the rap voiced by Vincent Price .. and then the "Thriller" video .... superb!

Just too bad that MJ couldn't be in control of his success and not let it overwhelm him ..He was a great singer and performer...

-Monte

Posted by Allison Parsons (Member # 2728) on 06-25-2009, 08:32 PM:

I am still anxiously awaiting The Making Of Thriller on DVD. I watched that sooooo much when I was young I could probably still quote the thing all the way through.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 06-25-2009, 08:33 PM:

Though not a fan of his for a while now, I was one as a child. I was only 7 when the Thriller album debut and did everything I could to convince my folks to buy it for me. As a joke my dad bought me Weird Al's "Just Eat It" single and then a few days later I awoke to find the "Thriller" album sitting on my dresser. I can still remember playing it til my folks were just sick of it.

R.I.P Michael

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-25-2009, 08:37 PM:

Wikipedia already has it listed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson#Death

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 06-25-2009, 08:46 PM:

Well, I'm sorry the man is dead, but he's upstaging my beloved Farrah.

I remember the same thing happened with Sammy Davis, Jr. He died the same day Jim Henson did, and all the press was about Henson. [Frown]

Jackson's death will probably be tantamount to the passing of Elvis Presley, and I'm sure deservedly so. I wonder when we'll start hearing about "Michael sightings"?

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 06-25-2009, 08:48 PM:

Monte,

Yes, I knew the famous quotation was from BAMBI and my mother never let my brother, sister and I ever forget it because she found great wisdom in the words and told use we will be a better person in life if we practiced it.

Michael Jasckson was a very talented performer and he will be missed. Although I listen to classical music most of the time, I did enjoy his recording especially THRILLER. I have the video on both laserdisc and also on DVD and have watched it often over the years.

-Claude

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 06-25-2009, 09:13 PM:

Does it make me a bad person that I am completely unmoved about his death? I'm not happy about it, but I'm not going to mourn his passing.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-25-2009, 09:21 PM:

quote: Justin Hamaker
it make me a bad person

You, yourself have already answered that question, in which your answer is "no, I'm not a bad person" - it's just how it is .. ..

..Life goes on .... and so do we ..

-Monte

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 06-25-2009, 09:56 PM:

A bit of a shock, but I'm not surprised. This was a man who was well passed the peak of his career. I doubt that rehearsals were going well for the new show because Michael is just not 25 any more, and a 50 year old body just won't work like a young one. With his overwhelming debt and constant problems, he was under a whole lot of pressure. I would not be surprised to find out this was some type of prescription medicine overdose.

I was not a big fan, but the THRILLER album was certainly a great piece of music.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-25-2009, 11:19 PM:

I didn't buy any of Michael Jackson's music back in the day although I was tempted to get a copy of Thriller because of Edward Van Halen's guitar solo work on Beat It. Regardless, the guy simply was one of the all time greats in pop music history.

Elvis and The Beatles are the only popular music performers I can think of who matched or surpassed the level of popularity Jackson achieved, especially when Jackson was at his peak from 1979-1984. I'll never forget the Motown TV special (I think it aired on NBC) back in 1983 where Jackson performed Billie Jean and introduced the "moonwalk" to screaming fans. Even I was doing a double take, "how the hell did he do that!?"

The music video for Billie Jean was groundbreaking. It and the video for Beat It were instrumental in transforming MTV from a rock dominated channel into one that played lots of music from both black and white artists. Anyone remember Rick James' public tirades over MTV refusing to play Super Freak?

This is just my opinion, but if I felt completely indifferent about Michael Jackson's death I wouldn't waste time making the effort to type anything about it. I think it's a sad situation. I also hate to say I'm wondering if there is any possibility Jackson might have taken his own life.

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 06-25-2009, 11:58 PM:

Just dug up my old vinyl, but alas, have no record player [Frown]

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 5226) on 06-26-2009, 12:01 AM:

My teenage years were the 60s and early 70s I always remember that popular and very talented young kid from "The Jackson Five" from those Motown days. Many years later my own kids and others used to mimic and sing "Beat It" at birthday parties, also remember sitting at the movies with my kids watching all the end credits from "Free Willy" with stunning photography and music "Will You Be There" sung by Michael Jackson, it was brilliant stuff....Michael Jackson certainly left his mark and will be missed

Graham.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-26-2009, 12:09 AM:

quote: Mike Heenan
Just dug up my old vinyl, but alas, have no record player

So go buy one. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-26-2009, 01:02 AM:

Since I was (and still am) in the retail music biz, I was right in the thick of the "Thriller" phenomenon. At that time we would order LPs and cassettes by label and catalog number over the phone, but for albums like "Thriller," "Rumours," "Hotel California" and other big sellers I could just say the title and quantity. "Thriller - 5 LP, 3 tape." I ordered copies of that album every week for at least 18 months. I would guess that at least 95% of the music fans in our town had a copy. We still stock the CD version and a greatest-hits package.

It's too bad that so much of the attention is being focused on the "Thriller" and Jackson 5 eras, because he made some good music after that too. The "Bad" album in particular has some great tunes (especially "Smooth Criminal") and "Dangerous" while not in the Quincy Jones mode of his biggest records, has quite a few good songs as well.

Am I 'moved' by this event? Well, probably 'surprised' is a better word because nobody is supposed to die at age 50 these days. I guess I stopped being a huge Michael Jackson fan after the hits dried up. I still like the records, but they've dated a bit and other things (some older, some newer) have taken up that space in my listening habits. But you can't deny the power in a lot of those songs. The guy definitely had the magic touch.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-26-2009, 02:02 AM:

quote: Tim Reed
I wonder when we'll start hearing about "Michael sightings"?

Michael had a flair for the dramatic, so I bet you will hear of people saying he staged his death for one reason or another and there will be "sightings".

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-26-2009, 07:57 AM:

There was almost nothing else on the news this morning when I looked. I don't think I've seen so much about somebody who has died since Dianna was killed; that must be about ten years ago now.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-26-2009, 09:05 AM:

At least there is some logic to the media frenzy this time around. Michael Jackson was a true superstar.

There was hours of non-stop news coverage in the US for lesser celebrities such as Anna Nicole Smith (the pill popping former Playboy Playmate who died of a drug overdose). In that particular case I jokingly think of vultures in the media celebrating. "We finally did it! We drove her to her death! Hooray! We rule!"

I'm wondering if the same intense, often negative media coverage on Jackson's life for the last 25+ years was a factor. There was all the jokes in popular culture. I think the classic song Controversy by Prince was inspired by the microscope put on Jackson all the time: "Am I black or white, am I straight or gay?" Couple that with Jackson being surrounded by "yes men" and not enough in the way of any real friends to help keep him grounded. No one can survive or at least keep from going nuts without having a healthy support system of family and friends.

Posted by Sally Ann Burgess (Member # 4746) on 06-26-2009, 09:23 AM:

I was lucky enough to see MJ in concert at Wembley Stadium during his 1988 Bad tour. One of the best nights of my life...and what a brilliant showman he was. The noise the crowd made when he made his entrance still remains one of the loudest things I ever heard!!!

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-26-2009, 09:25 AM:

I wouldn't mind if they had anything real to say about him; it's the interview with somebody who once lived next door to Michael Jackson's haridresser's aunt type thing that gets me.

Heart attack was unexpected; he was a year and a bit younger than me.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 06-26-2009, 09:57 AM:

Right before I left for class yesterday I was discussing the new trend in 3D movies and then remembered seeing Captain EO at Disneyland, then come to hear that he died.

And speaking of that movie, does Disney even have the projectors that this would've been played on and would they be able to bring it back in honor of him? That would be a great blast from the past.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 06-26-2009, 10:27 AM:

I assume the Captain EO projectors are the same that are being used to show Honey I Shrunk the Audience in the same theatre. Whether or not they still have prints is another question.

With regards to MJ's untimely death it is a sad end to a pretty sad life (especially for somebody that had a lot of talent). My guess is that it had something to do with all the drugs he was being fed by his "personal doctor" ala Elvis. Healthy 50 year olds with personal doctors don't typically have sudden cardiac arrest for no reason.

Anyway...........although tragic, in reality he's just one of several thousand people that died in the US yesterday. Sad I guess but at the same time life goes on.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 06-26-2009, 10:33 AM:

I was under the impression they'd switched to something digital, but that's a discussion for some other time/thread.

edit: But apparently I was wrong; so no discussion needed lol.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-26-2009, 01:04 PM:

quote: Lyle Romer
Whether or not they still have prints is another question.

We went on a Disney behind-the-scenes tour once where the guide took us through this huge warehouse and stated "Disney never throws ANYTHING away." Given the stuff in that building, I believe it. They definitely have preserved the Captain EO footage somewhere, somehow. But bringing it back would be a huge project -- the theater had special effects built into it that ran along with the film itself.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 06-26-2009, 01:09 PM:

I saw him in the Victory tour Toronto back in 1984.
I was amazed by the physical non stop energy of his dancing all night long while singing!
He was a 35mm film collector and had a real theater at neverland!

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 06-26-2009, 01:14 PM:

So who is Chip and what did he say that wasn't nice?

It just seems odd to me that for the past 20 years no one has done anything but ridicule the guy. Then all the sudden he croaks and everyone gets huffy puffy if you say anything remotely negative about him. Just look at all the negativity in the other MJ thread on here, I don't see anyone defending him there.

It is sad that he died, I admit. But you know, I think it is more sad that people wait until after someone is dead to defend them.

How does one get $500 million in debt? I would imagine after say, the first $100million in debt that people would start thinking it might be a bad investment to loan this guy money.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 06-26-2009, 01:23 PM:

Variety reported that concert promoter AEG Live, Which had organized the proposed series of concerts, is reportedly staring at an $85 Million dollar refund bill.
And in another report said the last Captain EO attraction operating was in Paris about 12 years ago.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 06-26-2009, 01:39 PM:

quote: Chris Hipp
So who is Chip and what did he say that wasn't nice?

He was referring the Chad's comment that Pepsi is going to shoot off fireworks in his honor, referring to how he got 2nd-degree burns to his scalp shooting a Pepsi commercial with a pyrotechnics accident.

quote: Chris Hipp
It just seems odd to me that for the past 20 years no one has done anything but ridicule the guy. Then all the sudden he croaks and everyone gets huffy puffy if you say anything remotely negative about him. Just look at all the negativity in the other MJ thread on here, I don't see anyone defending him there.

It's called respecting a person who just died. Lets say a friend of yours died and I hated him. Do I show up to the funeral and say "Well, he was a douchebag so it's good to see him go"? No, because it's not the right thing to do.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 06-26-2009, 01:47 PM:

quote: Chris Hipp
It is sad that he died, I admit. But you know, I think it is more sad that people wait until after someone is dead to defend them.

It should never be a delight when someone dies - except to rejoice in their life. Personally, I never liked Michael Jackson, never cared for his music, and I really didn't like him rubbing his dick through his clothes, in a music video that he knew kids would probably see.

But I can certainly appreciate that others may have loved him and wish to make it known.

quote: Chris S.
Do I show up to the funeral and say "Well, he was a douchebag so it's good to see him go"?

LOL!

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 06-26-2009, 02:08 PM:

I think Chris Hipp said it well - rip on a guy for years then all of a sudden it's a sad day? I guess we all have our own definitions of tragedy. I don't think everyone that dies is a tragedy regardless of reason. I think the real tragedy happened decades ago when Jackson was a victim of what most would consider child abuse by his rotten father. The other tragedy is that his young kids lost a father, however much of a loon that father may have been. Other than that, he has reportedly been in poor health for years, reportedly enjoyed a variety of drugs for a long time and reportedly was in debt up to amounts that average people would find unbelievable. I'm sure that people who knew him saw this coming. The Michael Jackson that I knew and loved - that the world knew and loved - the singer/dancer/entertainer - has been dead for a long time.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-26-2009, 02:10 PM:

Caught a few minutes on the radio this evening, and it still seems to be pretty solid Michael Jackson. There has been some interesting stuff about him, but most of it gives the distinct impression that they've run out of worthwhile things to say about him, so they'll just say a load of stuff which isn't worth saying to fill the time.

In these circumstances you decide what needs to be said about the person, you say it, and then you stop. We need quality of reporting, not quantity.

There was a comment on 'Any Questions' on the radio just now that while Michael Jackson had given a great deal of pleasure to millions of people he himself seemed to have led a rather unhappy life. I would agree with that; it's sad that he's died at a young age, without being to enjoy life as much as he might have done. Maybe if Fame hadn't found him to quite the extent that it did, and he had a bit more time to himself, away from constant media attention, then he might have lived a happier life. The life that he lived must have put a terrible strain on him.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-26-2009, 02:25 PM:

quote: Chris Hipp
It just seems odd to me that for the past 20 years no one has done anything but ridicule the guy.

I never got off on hating Michael Jackson. I've consistently seen him as a tragic figure whose career got way off the tracks largely because he had no real friends or honest advisers warning him about the screwy directions he was going in his life. I've also doubted rumors he was gay or a pedophile and that he was more of a strange grown man with the worst case of Peter Pan syndrome ever known. If the guy had just been more properly grounded his career may have been still going strong today.

No one should worry about everyone being too nice to MJ now that he is dead. There's still LOTS of negativity being spread. Most Film Tech forum members are trying to keep things respectful and remember the positive things about the "gloved one."

Lots of new jokes about Michael Jackson and even a few tying in the death of Farrah Fawcett are circulating everywhere from the web to people's phones to office water coolers. I heard a funny one this morning involving Legos (since Michael Jackson is mostly made of plastic they're going to cut him into little lego bricks so kids can play with him for a change).

After seeing the media feeding frenzy over any shades of controversy involving the deaths of celebrities like Princess Diana or even Anna Nicole Smith it's obvious we're not going to get any relief of sensational negativity now that Michael Jackson is dead. More likely a lot of stuff either true or not will surface and fan the flames further. People who love indulging in tearing down others obviously are not going to take the opportunity to stop when the target has died. They're going to piss and shit on that person's grave.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 06-26-2009, 03:10 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I heard a funny one this morning involving Legos (since Michael Jackson is mostly made of plastic they're going to cut him into little lego bricks so kids can play with him for a change).

Now that's funny. [Smile]

I fall into the camp of not hating MJ, but his oddities were at once disturbing and tragic. I do believe his issues stemmed from his father and his early huge fame. And he didn't make things any easier with some of his unguarded comments in public.

His music was indeed inventive, catchy and mostly quite enjoyable.

I agree that someone who's only 50 and under the direct care of a doctor should not have died this way..I'm willing to bet that his "doctor" is gonna have a LOT of explaining to do.

RIP Michael. I hope you can find true happiness as last.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-26-2009, 03:19 PM:

This death remind me of a similar one:

Let's go back to the "Star Wars" summer of 1977-August 16th to be exact, when another "King of Pop" passed away...this time it was "The King of Rock and Roll" .. Elvis Presley.

His and Michael's had a bit of a parallel life. Michael had the family, Elvis was on his own. Elvis started out much later than did Michael, but both soon really hit the charts with their hits in their young age.

Both set a new standard in the music industry and broke barriers in their music.

Both, when getting older, started to have problems which hurt their careers. Only that Elvis continued on to concertize whereas Michael stepped off the stage.

Both died the same way .. heart issues.

Both were close to the same age upon passing with Michael being older 50 against 42.

Both will always be remembered for their trademark songs.

-Monte

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-26-2009, 03:35 PM:

All death is "heart" issues.

They will live on forever in their songs. . . the most any of us can expect. Louis

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 06-26-2009, 05:05 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Both died the same way .. heart issues.

Difference being that we know that Elvis (like many people) died on the toilet. Taking a big dump (especially one that's badly impacted), or any action of bearing down and pushing, can impinge on the vagus nerve and stimulation of this nerve slows the heart down. In fact, with certain types of chronic tachycardia people are trained to do this same action to slow their heart down.

So in a normal, healthy individual the heart would be able to recover but Elvis wasn't exactly an example of health (having been on many prescription drugs for a long time).

Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 06-27-2009, 03:30 PM:

Jackson may not have been obese like Elvis. But he probably did just as much damage to his heart through a persistent "persecuted" mentality, multiple plastic surgeries and the numerous painkillers he ingested thanks to , in no small part, to the massive pain he must have felt undergoing on procedure after the other. It is simply amazing to me that a grown man can't take pot legally in this country, but most people, even younger than 21, can butcher their bodies repeatedly through unnecessary surgeries.

It also didn't help hshealth that was pretty much anorexic in the final stages of his life.

Personally, I cant quite figure out how true those pedo cases were. But then, he definitely must have done something inappropriate due to his massively arrested emotional development combined with his repressed sexuality. Who knows. I am not going to criticize someone if they choose to make fun of his death. He has done enough to deserve it.

But I do feel a big sentimental loss when you see someone of that stature die at a young age even if I have looked upon him with contempt in recent years(and not just for the pedo cases, but his hilarious need for ego boosting monikers). I wore out my tape of Thriller back when I was a young teen.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-27-2009, 08:06 PM:

quote: Pravin Ratnam
his hilarious need for ego boosting monikers

Yeah. That wasn't just him but the Jacksons (group) too. Look at the album titles:

Thriller
Bad
Dangerous
Invincible
HIStory

and the Jacksons albums:
Victory
Destiny
Triumph

He (and they) seemed constantly in need of boosting their egos. I was always surprised some manager/advisor didn't recommend toning that stuff down a bit. Or maybe one did, and they just didn't listen.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 06-28-2009, 05:22 PM:

Or maybe it was the manager/adviser that suggested and pushed it. At least when they were all children in the Jackson 5.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 06-30-2009, 11:00 AM:

The first time I heard anything by Michael Jackson was September 1979 when at the beginning of my 6th grade year, Jennifer McSpadden brought Michael's new album, Off The Wall, to school and the music teacher played it for us in the classroom. "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough" was the first song. I loved it.

Then, I only heard country music at home since that's what my parents listened to. Hearing something different was special, and it made an impression.

I like to remember Michael as he was during the Off The Wall and Thriller years.

Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 06-30-2009, 11:04 AM:

The biggest shock for me was seeing Michael Jackson's face on the Thriller cover after his natural look on the Off the Wall cover. Little did I know at that time, that his Thriller look would look very normal by comparison to what he would end up looking like.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 06-30-2009, 01:28 PM:

Yeah, just take the Off The Wall, Thriller, and Bad albums and look at the progression of his appearance. I wish the news media would use more older pictures instead of the very recent ones when doing stories on him.

Most of my strong Michael Jackson memories are from the 1979-1988 time period. After I moved to Huntsville, AL in 1988, maybe I'd had an overload and never was as interested in the era starting with Black or White and continuing through the 1990s.

I think some of the strength of the Off The Wall, Thriller, and Bad albums came from the breaks between them. Instead of having a constant stream of hits on the radio, he'd have a strong period, then a lapse. When he came back, the new album would be highly anticipated and there would be a huge air of excitement over it.

When Off The Wall was released, "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough" was his first major hit since 1972, 7 years earlier. Off The Wall had 4 hits during 1979 and spring 1980, then it was late 1982 before the first hit from Thriller, a nice lapse. It should be noted that the Off The Wall album was on the album chart for 169 weeks (over 3 years)!

Thriller buyers got their moneys worth, with 7 of the 9 tracks being hit singles in a year and a half time span (November 1983 through spring 1984). It was the number 1 album for an incredible 37 weeks in a row and was on the chart 122 weeks (a shorter time period than Off The Wall despite being a much better seller)

It would be over 3 years before the next major hit and major album. I remember the DJ on WQEN-FM in Gadsden being all excited about having the new Michael Jackson single "I Just Can't Stop Loving You" and announcing the exact time it would be played, which generated a ton of excitement. That was August 1987. 7 songs from the Bad album were hit singles from then to the end of 1988. Bad was the number 1 album for 6 weeks, being on the album chart for 87 weeks.

Note: All chart info refers to the Billboard Pop and Album charts.

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 07-01-2009, 12:02 PM:

This'll probably come back to haunt me someday, but what the hell. Found my old MJ glove from when I was a kid.

Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 07-01-2009, 02:51 PM:

Sometimes I wonder if the "sensitive" Jacko was closer to that spoiled kid in the Twilight Zone episode who terrorized his family and everyone who visited with his tantrums and all these adults were on edge trying to please the kid. He had the magic ability to do harm to anyone who annoyed him for whatever reason.

And those revelations about his not being biologically related to his kids, ha ha, big shocker. I didn't need a test to determine that. They looked nothing like him. They looked closer to what he wanted his kids to look like. I do admit being a little surprised that the white nurse or whatever she was was not the biological parent either. She made 2M for just being a freaking surrogate. Interesting debate surrogacy brings up. Why is prostitution illegal when surrogacy is not? Aren't you selling your body either way? Same with sperm and egg donors.

Other interesting debates: why do plastic surgeons get away with such experimental butchery while doctors will get sued off the wazoo for even bad results that had more to do with bad luck rather than real negigence?

Another interesting philosophical question: Why does the govt allow Jackson to butcher himself with multiple surgeries, but if he was normal in every aspect but wanted to take some pot, he could have been arrested, if caught by a vengeful cop? Is pot worse than out of control cosmetic surgery to a citizen?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-01-2009, 05:04 PM:

Dude, what is it with you and pot? Can you say "obsessed"?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-01-2009, 06:01 PM:

If the glove don't fit you must acquit!

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 07-01-2009, 06:02 PM:

I don't get the comparison between wanting plastic surgery and wanting to smoke pot. Seems like apples and oranges.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-01-2009, 06:19 PM:

quote: Pravin Ratnam
Other interesting debates: why do plastic surgeons get away with such experimental butchery while doctors will get sued off the wazoo for even bad results that had more to do with bad luck rather than real negigence?

Because some of us understand the term "informed consent."

Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 07-02-2009, 08:44 AM:

I brought up the pot comparison because drugs are prevalent in the music world. Also, we have hypocritical laws. The reason pot and worse drugs are supposed to be illegal is that they are bad for you. So why are these kind of plastic surgeries unchecked? I am not talking about a simple tuck or facelift. We are talking about extensive stuff which damages the integrity of the facial structure. Not advocating one over the other. I am anti-drugs personally and never took one though I support its legalization since we have more dangerous stuff going on that is legal(like risky extensive plastic surgery which caters to another kind of addiction).

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-02-2009, 10:39 AM:

Jamie Foxx, with his history of racist comments, weighed in on Jackson during the opening of the BET awards. Oddly enough, I can't find audio or video of his comments anywhere, only text, and edited text at that. It seems to be lost on the internet. If someone can find it, please post. The written version doesn't contain the tone and emphasis Foxx had while speaking. Here is a link containing part of what he said. I heard the actual audio yesterday on the radio and it was:

"We are here for the greatest. There's no need to be sad. We want to celebrate this black man (paused for applause, then repeated with emphasis on the word black)- This BLACK man - he belongs to us - and we shared him with everybody else." Foxx then went on to joke about Jackson's nose changing and said it didn't matter what he looked like, it was what he sounded like that made him black.

I'm glad Michael got the consent of all the black people to whom he belonged before becoming famous. All us white folk would have lost out on an entertainment legend... [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-02-2009, 02:33 PM:

No, it is impossible for Jamie Foxx to be racist. Only white people can be racist.

Posted by Christian Volpi (Member # 2370) on 07-02-2009, 02:59 PM:

Wait, Michael Jackson died?

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-06-2009, 06:42 PM:

Ironically, Michael Jackson's death may actually rid him of his supposed $500 million debt.

In Australia, he has the top three spots in the national album charts (The ARIA chart)...a feat unprecedented. Neil Diamond and Guns And Roses have each held the top two spots, but never has any performer or group held the top three.

www.aria.com.au

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 07-06-2009, 07:01 PM:

AEG or whoever was putting on the London concerts is going to end up doing fine on this because a lot of ticketholders are keeping the tickets as souveniers (read: for future sale on eBay) instead of getting a refund. AEG said they'll probably break even on the concerts even though there won't be any now.

The rehearsals included detailed planning for and run-through shooting of many hours of high-def video. The actual concerts were to be recorded for later release via TV, disc, Internet downloading, etc. There'll be video releases from the rehearsals for sure. And supposedly there's a lot of music in the can too, vocals with unfinished instrumental tracks, stuff like that. All a probable gold mine now.

So yeah, MJ's death may end up erasing his debt and providing nicely for his kids, who unfortunately will probably not live anything resembling a "normal" life but hey, at least they'll have some money.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-06-2009, 07:22 PM:

Remember that there is absolutely nothing more important in life than money. Nothing. Period. Everyone here wants it more than anything and you absolutely need it. So the kids will be fine.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-07-2009, 08:52 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Remember that there is absolutely nothing more important in life than money.

What about pussy? Oh, sorry, I meant "love."

Of course, you have to spend a lot of money one way or the other to get "love" so the money thing still winds up being pretty important after all.
[Frown]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-07-2009, 09:12 PM:

Bad typography knows no bounds...

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-08-2009, 12:15 AM:

Michael Jackson was a great entertainer and all that, but I find myself almost wishing the terrorists would attack* or something so every news organization on the planet would for Pete's sake STOP ALREADY. He's just an entertainer that most people hadn't given two shits about for the past 15 years until a week ago. It's not like Jesus came back and was crucified again. (Gotta wonder how much coverage they'd give to that.)

*That was a joke. I don't really want the terrorists to attack.

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 07-08-2009, 12:51 AM:

quote: David Stambaugh
So yeah, MJ's death may end up erasing his debt and providing nicely for his kids, who unfortunately will probably not live anything resembling a "normal" life but hey, at least they'll have some money.

I would have to argue that those kids now DO have a chance at a normal life and upbringing. Hopefully there wasn't enough damage done to them that they can't recover from.

And I would have to agree with Mike, this is getting more coverage than you would expect to see if the president died in office.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-08-2009, 12:51 AM:

Maybe Michael and Elvis will get together and be prove to the world that they're not dead.

First, there are tonnage of Elvis impersonators, now there will be tonnage of MJ impersonators ...

..it'll never die ...

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-08-2009, 01:10 AM:

Firstly, nobody is forcing anyone to watch the news. That is the only way you'd be "forced" MJ info since you couldn't fast forward live TV. Just turn off the TV. Don't even bother turning it on again. That's what I do. If you READ the news in some form, you can easily skip to the next segment in a nanosecond be it a newspaper or online. No MJ news is forced upon you. You didn't have to read this thread, but you chose to.

Secondly, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone more popular than MJ. He's way more popular than Elvis ever was or could have been. It's big news. Huge. People become very fascinated when people die, just look at all of the memorial threads on this forum for losers that nobody ever gave a piss about or even heard of. Yet for some reason they deserve a memorial thread. Can you really not understand why it gets so much coverage? People are actually interested in how he fucked up his life and whatnot. There was some idiot congressman saying we should appreciate dead soldiers overseas instead of MJ. He doesn't get it, either. It is not like you have to appreciate MJ or the soldiers. It is not an either/or situation, but Mr. Congressman seems to think we can only appreciate/remember one thing at a time. MJ was a huge star who led a very weird life which was very different than all of ours. Of course people will find it fascinating.

If Jesus came back, the majority of the world would consider it a non-issue since they do not belong to that religion.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-08-2009, 08:52 AM:

quote: Tim Reed
Bad typography knows no bounds...

Never set a script in all capitals. That even goes for setting Old English in all caps for a street gang tattoo (rap performers haven't figured out that one yet).

The Neverland sign would be even more funny if the type was set in Brush Script.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-08-2009, 08:57 AM:

Joe, I remember when Elvis died... it was huge news that was around for months. Elvis was the biggest act of the time - even the Beatles were Elvis fans.

MJ may have had a broader audience (due to popular culture/MTV, the Internet, and such), but The King had a big goofy movie career that Jackson could only dream of. [Razz]

Bobby, that's the first thing that struck me when they showed that sign on the news a few days ago. It's a font that's not intended to be used in all caps. You see SO many things like that driving down the road on the backs of beaner mobiles (and tattoos, like you said), it's pathetic.

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 07-08-2009, 09:39 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
No MJ news is forced upon you

Oh, no? I flipped on the news last night because I wanted to hear of Obama's trip to Russia. Guess what I had to sit thru first and for how long. What am I supposed to do, hide in the john and have someone call me when what I want to see comes up?

quote: Joe Redifer
Can you really not understand why it gets so much coverage?

No, I really, really do understand why it gets this coverage. And it’s horseshit for the simple reason that the coverage of Jackson's death is far out of proportion to who and what he was and what he left us, apart from some decent albums and an interesting dance move. He was a talented person and an expert on self-promotion, for sure. But up until the day he died, he was, for a lot of the world, "Wacko Jacko", an emotionally stunted freak of plastic surgery who had mismanaged his way into a financial abyss, and very likely an unpardoned felon on top of that. Undeniably talented, yes, and a born showman, but which aspect of his celebrity makes him worthy of this “huge” amount of attention, the talent or the freak show? A lot of people are very talented and don't get this hoopla on their deaths.

Look at it this way: one of the biggest selling recording artists in recent history is Mariah Carey, who is also very talented but who lives a life of comparative restraint. God forbid she drops dead, but if she does, will she get the wall-to-wall coverage? You seem to be suggesting that because he “fucked up his life” to the extent that he did, that his death deserves this kind of fawning media attention. It doesn’t. Sorry to be so harsh, but truth be told we're pulling out the stops to celebrate a lunatic, a person who the world rolled its eyes at as recently as two weeks ago but who also was a master at manipulating the media.

quote: Joe Redifer
He's way more popular than Elvis ever was or could have been

That’s hardly true. You’re what, 34 or 35? You weren’t alive for Elvis. I was very young back then, but I remember the insanity that Presley generated, and while the country didn’t have the celebrity media backbone that it has today, it was still pretty pervasive and truly a mania. Hell, the FBI actually once considered him a national security threat. Nothing Michael Jackson has ever done will ever result in the kind of cultural impact that Elvis had. For a long time, people who couldn’t deal with his death kept the whole “Elvis sightings” thing going, and to this day people STILL visit Graceland. He was enormously popular, but he’s gone 30+ years now, and memories fade and the perspective is lost. But while Michael Jackson sold records, Elvis Presley, for better or worse, changed things. Few performers can claim that.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-08-2009, 10:10 AM:

quote: Mark Ogden
Oh, no? I flipped on the news last night because I wanted to hear of Obama's trip to Russia. Guess what I had to sit thru first and for how long. What am I supposed to do, hide in the john and have someone call me when what I want to see comes up?

There's this magic thing called the internet. You want to hear about of Obama's trip and not have anything else told to you? Google it or go to a news website and if you really need to have someone speak to you about it instead of reading, then do a search for a video.

quote: Mark Ogden
one of the biggest selling recording artists in recent history is Mariah Carey, who is also very talented but who lives a life of comparative restraint. God forbid she drops dead, but if she does, will she get the wall-to-wall coverage?

Is this the same Mariah Carey that was covered in media for months for publicly having a complete mental breakdown? If she died she'd have quite a bit of coverage. Perhaps not quite as much as him.

quote: Mark Ogden
But while Michael Jackson sold records, Elvis Presley, for better or worse, changed things. Few performers can claim that.

And MJ did too. Just because you only see his records sold doesn't mean that it's all he did. He changed things, influencing how people do music videos (his arguably being mini-films/movies); brought back a bigger influence of dance into performing; crossed over into areas of pop, hard rock, R&B; and obviously he was the most popular black artist by far at the time.

I never was a huge MJ fan, but I don't see how anyone can deny his influence like you have. Just because Elvis had an influence doens't mean MJ didn't.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-08-2009, 10:27 AM:

quote: Mark Ogden
But while Michael Jackson sold records, Elvis Presley, for better or worse, changed things. Few performers can claim that.

Jackson changed things. Big time. While there are similarities (Elvis being shown below the waist on Sullivan, Jackson's crotch grab) anybody who stops to compare sees that there is no comparison at all.

Elvis didn't write shit, while Jackson wrote lyrics and composed. Sure, that's using the standard Dylan influenced on music, but it still counts. It must be considered easier to simply perform the work of someone else versus both creating and performing. Elvis was simply a great performer.

Jackson was more known worldwide. Maybe that's an effect of media and technology, but a fact is a fact. He had billions of fans. Literally billions.

Any fat dude with a decent voice can put on fake sideburns and do a solid Elvis impersonation. It's because he's easy to impersonate - and there are some pretty darn good ones out there. His vocal range was not spectacular and his moves were not complex - just racy for the time. Andy Kaufman was the "original" Elvis impersonator and he actually did a good job. I have never seen a good Michael Jackson impersonation. It's because few humans have the ability to do that stuff physically and those that do likely can't match his voice.

quote: Mark Ogden
You’re what, 34 or 35? You weren’t alive for Elvis.

The argument that Joe is too young to know and appreciate Elvis can be flipped to say you're too old to know and appreciate Jackson. Many similarities: They both were a disgrace at the end of their lives. They both were, in kindness, eccentric. They both had a tremendous impact on the entertainment world. They both had maniacal fans - the fact remains, however, that Michael Jackson had more of them.

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 07-08-2009, 11:12 AM:

quote: Chad Souder
but a fact is a fact. He had billions of fans. Literally billions.

A fact is a fact, except when it is hyperbole. You are saying "literally billions", meaning what, two or three? The current population of the planet is just south of seven billion. So roughly one-third of the world's population liked Jackson enough to qualify as "fans"? I don't think so, but you are welcome to prove me wrong.

quote: Chad Souder
you're too old to know and appreciate Jackson.

Oh please. You forget how long he has been around. I used to play Jackson Five records on my college radio station, and after he went solo, I bought many of his albums. I remember getting shit-faced drunk one night listening to "She's Out Of My Life" when . . . well you can imagine. I appreciated his talent quite a bit, and I stated as much above when I called him "undeniably talanted and a born showman". But the fact remains that in terms of cultural evolution, only the Beatles have come close to Presley in impact. I think sometimes that's why Jackson was so hot to buy their catalog. He couldn't touch them, but he could own them. Just a theory, but still.

quote: Chad Souder
I have never seen a good Michael Jackson impersonation

Actually, Madonna had one on stage with her just the other night. Nailed the moondance, dead nuts.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-08-2009, 12:41 PM:

Michael Jackson coverage may be dominating what is shown on CNN or the national news of ABC, NBC and CBS. But it isn't everywhere.

Networks like CNBC and Bloomberg are hardly showing any MJ coverage at all. But then they're not ate up with all the celebrity worship/gossip baloney and general yellow journalism nearly as much as CNN & Fox News either.

quote: Mark Ogden
A fact is a fact, except when it is hyperbole. You are saying "literally billions", meaning what, two or three? The current population of the planet is just south of seven billion. So roughly one-third of the world's population liked Jackson enough to qualify as "fans"? I don't think so, but you are welcome to prove me wrong.

The fact still remains that Michael Jackson did have more fans worldwide than Elvis. MJ sold more records than Elvis. I don't particularly like it that Michael Jackson is the most popular music recording artist in the history of recorded music, but that's just how it goes. I'm not going to get pissy about it and tell the legions of fans and pretend-fans they have no right to pour their hearts out about it. That sounds about as practical as trying to punch God in the face.

I'm not surprised by the marathon style coverage of his death being run on certain TV channels, but not every TV channel is doing that either. Click to another station or visit the Internet.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 07-08-2009, 01:40 PM:

The mainstream media outlets (in the US: NBC, CNN, etc) follow the numbers. They know virtually instantly whether the MJ coverage is attracting viewers, or repelling them. Clearly the numbers supported the coverage. I can't fault the media for giving people what they seem to want, especially when there are still alternatives as mentioned previously. Even my elderly mother, who barely knew who MJ was, willingly watched the memorial service coverage on CNN and commented favorably on it.

One thing that strikes me about the MJ saga is he seemed like possibly the whitest black man we've ever encountered as a public figure. By that I don't mean his ever-lightening skin (whatever was causing that). I mean he didn't seem race-conscious. He was neither black nor white in that sense (hey, he even wrote a song related to that). Some black entertainers are now talking about MJ as if he belonged to black people exclusively and was only on loan to the rest of us. That is nonsense and hypocritical. MJ may have had an issue with race as it affected him personally, but only in his own mind, as evidenced by physical changes he inflicted on himself, for better or worse.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-08-2009, 02:09 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
The fact still remains that Michael Jackson did have more fans worldwide than Elvis. MJ sold more records than Elvis.

You can't really make a valid comparison there.

1. There are a lot more people in the world now than during the Elvis era.

2. Elvis was the king of rock'n'roll before "albums" were the recording media purchase of choice -- during his time, singles were a much bigger market. The album didn't really become the delivery system of choice for music until the last part of the Beatles era.

3. Elvis didn't live during the mass-media explosion of the '80s and later. Therefore his music didn't have the chance to reach as many people -- yet he was still a global superstar, so arguably his impact was as far reaching as Jackson's, and maybe farther since it was so much more challenging for "everyone" to hear or see something in those days.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-08-2009, 02:56 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
1. There are a lot more people in the world now than during the Elvis era.

2. Elvis was the king of rock'n'roll before "albums" were the recording media purchase of choice -- during his time, singles were a much bigger market. The album didn't really become the delivery system of choice for music until the last part of the Beatles era.

3. Elvis didn't live during the mass-media explosion of the '80s and later. Therefore his music didn't have the chance to reach as many people -- yet he was still a global superstar, so arguably his impact was as far reaching as Jackson's, and maybe farther since it was so much more challenging for "everyone" to hear or see something in those days.

You have to remember something about Elvis. His fan base was not as broad as Jackson's. Meaning he had a large white fan base but his fan base for blacks and Asians was not as broad. That is why MJ sold as many records as he did compared to Elvis. Remember Elvis had a hard time gaining respect in the south. DJ's refused to play his records because they felt his style of music came from the blacks of that time period. His popularity took a jump when he started making movies and then made the decision to start touring again. MJ opened the door wider but he did not unlock the door for blacks. He just happened to be in the right place at the right time when it came to videos and such and that is what helped fuel his fan base to a broader point. His style could be sold to everyone....color didn't matter.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-08-2009, 02:58 PM:

That is true. We had a lot of customers who bought "Thriller" but never bought any other black music.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-08-2009, 03:32 PM:

MJ is far more popular than Elvis was. You may claim "more peoples are alives now than back then and they didn't have the internets either". While true, fact is fact. More people are MJ fans than are/were Elvis fans, not that you have to be a fan of either/or. More overall fans constitutes being more popular. Did Elvis change things? You bet. Did Michael? Of course. This is not to say Elvis wasn't popular or had crappy music or anything. Anyway, others have already made the rest of my point for me.

quote: David Stambaugh
Some black entertainers are now talking about MJ as if he belonged to black people exclusively and was only on loan to the rest of us. That is nonsense and hypocritical.

That's Jamie Foxx, natural born racist. Maybe he can join the ranks of Spike Lee, John Singleton, Samuel L Jackson and "Queen" Latifah.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-08-2009, 04:08 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
We had a lot of customers who bought "Thriller" but never bought any other black music.

Black Music???????... Dun think so...many whites, Asians, etc, enjoyed that tune and video and CONTINUE to buy his music and videos. [uhoh]

Joe is RIGHT ON TARGET with his well-said MJ posts! [beer]

quote: Mark Ogden
I flipped on the news last night because I wanted to hear of Obama's trip to Russia

OH NO! NOW it's back to the DAILY horseshit rhetoric of "our president" ...Gosh MJ was such a break from that political CRAP!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-08-2009, 04:27 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
That's Jamie Foxx, natural born racist. Maybe he can join the ranks of Spike Lee, John Singleton, Samuel L Jackson and "Queen" Latifah.

You forgot Denzel Washington. I saw an interview several years back with him and it was painfully obvious he is tremendously racist.

Personally I never cared much for his music and I fail to see just how he changed things to the extent that everyone is giving him credit for. Regardless I do hope Michael Jackson returns from the dead. Wouldn't it be awesome for him to do some sort of Thriller thing with himself all over a faked death? It would've been the biggest screw-job to the fans of all time...but hey, from the looks of his recent sales, it would've gotten him out of debt! [Razz]

PS - Elvis isn't dead. He is actually just in disguise as Phil Hill.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-08-2009, 04:54 PM:

quote: Our Grand-Poopie-BAH
Elvis isn't dead. He is actually just in disguise as Phil Hill.

I'm ALL SHOOK UP and will be appearing at your local mall...

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-08-2009, 04:55 PM:

Damn! I never noticed that before! [Eek!]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-08-2009, 05:10 PM:

That's hilarious, John! Thanks for the laff... [beer]

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-08-2009, 05:11 PM:

Whoah! You're freaking me out Phil! [Wink]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-08-2009, 05:43 PM:

I'm freaking ***YOU*** out!?!?!? Oh PUHLEEZE! Cut me some slack! [Razz]

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-08-2009, 05:52 PM:

[beer]

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 07-08-2009, 06:53 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
That's Jamie Foxx, natural born racist.

Right! That's who I was thinking of.

I didn't say it very well but what I meant was MJ's public personna was such that I never consciously thought of him as a *black* entertainer, at least not unless someone around MJ, or speaking about MJ, brought it up. He was more universal and color wasn't overtly a part of his act or his appeal. However he clearly must have had other internalized "issues" with being black.

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 07-08-2009, 07:13 PM:

They like to call him black, a black man even. But everyone knows him as a white woman, so no wonder he is getting so much attention. If he were black no one would care.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-08-2009, 09:32 PM:

quote: Mark Ogden
But the fact remains that in terms of cultural evolution, only the Beatles have come close to Presley in impact.

You've got that backwards. Presley maybe came close to the Beatles. Maybe. The Beatles started the British invasion and are credited (accused?) of doing more to promote drug use, whether intended or not, than any other band in history. The British invasion crushed what the United States had going at the time and changed the direction music was headed and the culture of those listening. While The Beatles were in awe of Elvis, it was their success that was pushing him off to the side. The Beatles themselves evolved musically with every album, while Elvis stayed generally the same throughout. I think it's easier to evolve when you actually write your own songs. Again, Elvis had a rabid fanbase that few ever achieve. The thing is, The Beatles and MJ are a couple of those few.

Now if you really want to get to the champion of influence then look no farther than Bob Dylan. He beats them all.

quote: Mark Ogden
You are saying "literally billions", meaning what, two or three? The current population of the planet is just south of seven billion. So roughly one-third of the world's population liked Jackson enough to qualify as "fans"? I don't think so, but you are welcome to prove me wrong.

You're assuming I meant at any given time. Take the fans from the start of Jackson's career (1964) to the death of his career (sometime in the mid or late 90s), add a few for the past 10+ years that would have discovered him after the fact, and you've got 45 or so years worth that easily bring you in the billions. Just his HIStory tour in the mid nineties took MJ to 35 countries on 5 continents. Elvis just doesn't have as many any way you look at it. He never had thousands upon thousands screaming for him in Czech Republic, South Africa, Japan, etc. etc...

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-08-2009, 10:32 PM:

I think what you are trying to say, David, is that although Michael Jackson was black (or an "African American" as the politically correct enjoy saying), he wasn't "in your face" about it like it seems most black people are. Most rappers and many black entertainers use the word "nigger" all over the place, flaunting their blackness, if you will. MJ didn't do that. He didn't really care about race. However there are exceptions to everything as he once did call the boss of Sony racist (the Matola guy or whatever his name is) against black artists, even though the guy was married to a half & half like Mariah Carrey.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-09-2009, 01:29 AM:

And I think it is specifically that lack of attention to race of which you speak, Joe, that made him appeal to such a wide audience. His entertainment wasn't focused toward people who shared a similar background and thus was not divisive. It was pure theater, open to anyone. Then some idiot like Jamie Foxx has to come along and spout off about him belonging to them, making it divisive when it had never been. Disappointing.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-09-2009, 02:15 AM:

Michael Jackson's solo career would have been about a fourth of the size it was if not for one guy:

Quincy Jones.

It was him, more than Michael, who was responsible for the overall sound of the music that was refined on the "big 3" MJ albums.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-09-2009, 02:50 AM:

Dunno 'bout that. Quincy didn't want MJ to include Billie Jean on Thriller. And when Michael insisted on including it QJ wanted the instrumental intro cut short. MJ got his way and the song remains as is. Probably one of my favorite MJ songs, to be sure.

I used to think the same think about Jackson and Jones until I did a bit more research.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-09-2009, 09:31 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
MJ didn't do that. He didn't really care about race. However there are exceptions

Like the song "They Don't Really Care About Us" focusing a bunch on racism (and in particular adding in a useless anti-Jew slur).

quote:
Jew me, sue me
Everybody do me
Kick me, kike me
Don't you black or white me

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-09-2009, 10:55 AM:

It wasn't useless or offensive except when taken out of context like you have. If read in the context of the entire song, there is nothing antisemitic about those words. Harsh words sometimes are needed to make the point. Watching the videos can help put it in context as well. Although Spike Lee shot the videos and he is racist, so maybe...

quote: Mike Blakesley
Michael Jackson's solo career would have been about a fourth of the size it was if not for one guy:

Quincy Jones.

You could say the same about Colonel Tom Parker, Sid Bernstein, Don King, etc., etc., etc...

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-09-2009, 11:03 AM:

I have listened to the song and read the lyrics and I still conclude that the term isn't needed. I'm not saying he meant it to be antisemetic, but even used the way he did the term is offensive to a lot of people. And he could've gotten the same point across without the word. It'd be no different than if a white guy sang a song with a certain N-word in it and told people "Come on. I'm just using it as a harsh word." People would be offended.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-09-2009, 11:15 AM:

Has everybody forgotten the old saying "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"???

Seriously people, it's just a word. It didn't hit you over the head or anything real.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-09-2009, 11:52 AM:

quote: Chad Souder
You could say the same about Colonel Tom Parker, Sid Bernstein, Don King, etc., etc., etc...

No way. Listen to the Quincy Jones album "The Dude" and you'll hear a lot of the same elements that made up the MJ sound of the early '80s. Michael was a great singer and writer, but the addition of the Jones' great producing and arranging made an unbeatable combination.

quote: Chris Slycord
I have listened to the song and read the lyrics and I still conclude that the term isn't needed. I'm not saying he meant it to be antisemetic, but even used the way he did the term is offensive to a lot of people.

"There are no bad words. Bad thoughts, bad intentions...and words. Then we assign a word to a thought, and we're stuck with that word for that thought." -- George Carlin

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-09-2009, 12:46 PM:

Aww, that's leaving out the "good part":

"You know the seven, don't you, that you can't say on television: shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker and tits, huh? Those are the heavy seven. Those are the ones that'll infect your soul, curve your spine and keep the country from winning the war."

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-09-2009, 12:49 PM:

Bad words are often put into songs simply to be inflammatory.

Back in 1968 Steppenwolf wrote "God damn the pusher!"
Could it have been written any other way? Probably.
But, why did it get left in there? To be inflammatory. To attract attention.
If it wasn't, it probably never would have been included in the movie, "Easy Rider."
If it wasn't for that, the song probably never would have been famous.

Basically, people sometimes do things to attract attention.

Janet Jackson flashed her tit on the Super Bowl.
Nobody in the world will deny it was done to attract attention.

Why should her brother be any different?

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-09-2009, 06:46 PM:

Yeah, he flashed his tits in the "Black or White" video, I think it was.

Bobby - I had already put that quote in the "posts last wins" thread and didn't want to repeat myself!

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-09-2009, 06:52 PM:

quote: Chris Slycord
I have listened to the song and read the lyrics and I still conclude that the term isn't needed.

I think unless you are the author, that is not your call to make. Jackson thought it was needed for some reason. He hardly needed to seek attention by using harsh words. I would say he was already pretty well established by the time that song was written. The only people who find it offensive are those who choose to allow themselves to be offended.

quote: Mike Blakesley
No way. Listen to the Quincy Jones album "The Dude" and you'll hear a lot of the same elements that made up the MJ sound of the early '80s. Michael was a great singer and writer, but the addition of the Jones' great producing and arranging made an unbeatable combination.

I am absolutely not denying Jones's influence, I am simply making the point that behind almost every huge performer there was someone behind them making a huge contribution. Bernie Taupin, Babyface, Rick Rubin, Dr. Dre... I could go on and on. If not for Sam Phillips, Elvis may have never been known by Colonel Tom Parker, much less by the country. If not for George Martin, The Beatles never have made it into the USA with the help of Sid Bernstein. In my opinion, they deserve as much or more credit than Jones earned with Jackson. Jackson had already gained fame prior to ever meeting Jones.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-09-2009, 09:28 PM:

quote: Chad Souder
I think unless you are the author, that is not your call to make.

So if I see a scene in a movie I think should've been cut out, am I not allowed to voice that opinion because I'm not the movie maker? Also, how am I making a call at all? I'm just voicing my opinion that the line wasn't needed; doesn't mean it was my decision to make.

quote: Chad Souder
Jackson thought it was needed for some reason.

Should I care? Again, I think it wasn't needed. Telling me Jackson disagreed with me isn't exactly compelling.

quote: Chad Souder
The only people who find it offensive are those who choose to allow themselves to be offended.

Of course, someone who has no idea what those people went through would say something like this.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-10-2009, 10:08 AM:

Perhaps someone who likes songs with the lyrical shallowness of Chickenfoot is incapable of understanding a song with a little bit of depth [Razz]

Tell us, what words should Jackson have used instead to deliver the same point?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-10-2009, 10:34 AM:

The personal insult is worth a 1 point deduction and 1 point addition in Chris' favor.

Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 07-10-2009, 11:03 AM:

The fact that the song in question wasn't a hit and that most folks have never even heard of it may indicate whether Jackson's lyrics were "worth the risk" of being written for shock value. Of course, at that point in his life, his songs weren't nearly as shocking as everything else about him. And every video he made seemed to portray him as a bitter and angry person.

I hate it when celebrities complain about fame, especially when their earlier behavior has been calculated just to draw attention to themselves. It seems to me that it would be very easy to remove yourself from the spotlight and, like, move to a place where shallow photographers don't want to hang out. I mean, how many celebrities seem to get all the privacy they want in a beautiful place like Montana? I've never seen tabloid pictures with Montana in the background.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-10-2009, 11:31 AM:

quote: Chad Souder
Perhaps someone who likes songs with the lyrical shallowness of Chickenfoot is incapable of understanding a song with a little bit of depth

Who said I didn't understand the song and even disliked the song? Just because I dislike the choice of a couple words doesn't mean I hate the whole thing.

quote: Chad Souder
Tell us, what words should Jackson have used instead to deliver the same point?

When did you mistake me for a songwriter?

quote: Greg Anderson
I hate it when celebrities complain about fame, especially when their earlier behavior has been calculated just to draw attention to themselves.

In defense of MJ, early in his career he seemed to simply have what was a running, inside joke where he would make up his own rumors and send them to the press. Only later did he realize (after he got beyond his young naivety) that doing so was not beneficial to him at all.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-10-2009, 05:25 PM:

I guess I didn't realize when you first said the words were useless, then said three times they weren't needed, but only just now said for the first time that you didn't like them, that you really meant all along you just didn't like his choice to use them. My mistake. I have no issue if you only meant you didn't like them.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-10-2009, 07:46 PM:

I meant useless as in unnecessary. He could've easily made the point he was trying to make without resorting to using the terms he used and it probably would make the lyrics have a little bit more of the "depth" that you like, since it would lack the blatant "shock value" attempt. Avoiding the shock value would require him to be more thoughtful with his choice of words.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-10-2009, 11:03 PM:

I guess M. J. was ahead of his time with those lyrics. Today's R&B lyrics are full of "unnecessary" language. Take away the four letter words and many of today's pop "songwriters" would have nothing to say.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-11-2009, 10:20 AM:

I completely agree with you, Mike. Often, perhaps usually, "bad" words are used to increase attention and it's not just R&B, but pop songs of many genres, like you said. I remember an MTV awards show during which Steven Tyler of Aerosmith, while receiving an award, thanked someone for teaching them (and I'm paraphrasing here because this was probably 15 or 20 years ago - I think something for the Pump album) "if you put a few four letter words on your album it will sell a lot more copies." I just know that they're not always used for shock value. For example, in Bob Dylan's song Hurricane, he has a line "and to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger..." No shock attempt there, that's just what Dylan thought was necessary to tell that story. Usually in music that word could be replaced by the word "brother" for example, with no diminished meaning, but not in the case of Hurricane. It was necessary. I think the same is the case for some other songs out there.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-11-2009, 02:23 PM:

YAWN...

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 07-11-2009, 05:10 PM:

Michael Jackson is not dead.

MJ, now known as "Megan Fox" walks to her car after visiting a hair salon in West Hollywood on Friday.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-11-2009, 06:00 PM:

Well now it all makes sense.

Michael Jackson bangs Zac Efron

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-11-2009, 11:05 PM:

From the above article

quote:
Megan has even said, "What you don't know is that Zac and I are the same person. It's like Janet and Michael [Jackson], we are the same person."

So since Megan is Michael this means that Zac is Janet. That explains it all.

quote: Chad Souder
I just know that they're not always used for shock value.

True. I just felt this wasn't the case with that particular song.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-12-2009, 10:03 PM:

None of you better spoil the upcoming Jennifer's Body for me by putting that awful thought of Michael's body in my head...