This is topic Has anyone upgraded to Snow Leopard? in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 08-30-2009, 09:05 AM:
What do you think of Apple's new operating system? It was only released on Friday so it's been out a whole 3 days, but I've taken the plunge and so far I'm most impressed!
I loved Leopard and this is that, but quicker. Shutdown is virtually instant!
By the way, I like PCs too. I think it's OK to like all computers. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-30-2009, 11:54 AM:
I've heard good things overall but the one big irony for me is that when Vista came out some big mac fanboys were saying "You shouldn't have to upgrade your hardware just to get the newest OS" and now we have Apple's newest OS, which incidentally drops all support for the PowerPC macs (meaning you'd have to upgrade your hardware to get the newest OS).
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 08-30-2009, 01:11 PM:
Chris, that does sound like certain Mac owners. Ignorant. Why support a dead architecture? Do they really want infinite backwards compatibility? I really want to run 10.6 or whatever it is on my Macintosh II! It's not like they've dropped support for previous iterations of OSX, so run 10.4 or 10.5.
I'm running 10.4 on my two year old Macbook. I wasn't paying attention to their product cycle, and I bought my computer about a month before 10.5 was released. They wouldn't upgrade me for free, so 10.4 it is. This may be one of those predictions, like the time my father swore he would never pay more than $1.00 for a gallon of gas, but I have no intention of ever paying for an operating system by itself. I'm done with Macs, so hopefully when this machine needs to be replaced, Lenovo will come around and start selling Thinkpads sans OS, because I'm switching to Linux to avoid the shit from both Microsoft (buggy patches, slow security updates) and Apple (outrageous price, huge security holes that never get patched, Apple fanboys thinking that I'm one of them and that I want to listen to how much they love their Mac and how they just don't understand why people are so ignorant and still use Windows. Steve Jobs is, like, just so keen, gosh he is swell).
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-30-2009, 02:05 PM:
Well, even the earlier iterations of OSX dropped support for the lower-clockspeed powerpc macs.
And on your whole laptop thing, why not just go with the lenovo you want (that has windows) and reinstall it with whatever linux distro you want? That's what I did with my netbook.
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 08-30-2009, 02:10 PM:
Well, that's my plan, but if Lenovo would discount the thing even $20 for the absence of the Windows license, that would be better. Plus, there's the street cred aspect. I could go up to girls at parties and tell them about how cool I am because my computer came without an OS preinstalled. In my experience this sort of thing always works.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-30-2009, 02:36 PM:
quote: Galen Murphy-Fahlgren
Well, that's my plan, but if Lenovo would discount the thing even $20 for the absence of the Windows license, that would be better.
And it would be better if they gave me free booze for a year, but that isn't going to happen either.
Also, usually the windows-included ones are cheaper simply because of supply and demand rather than the license cost.
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-30-2009, 03:35 PM:
Michael
I plan to get the new Snow Leopard operating system from Apple in a week or so. After a little over five years of use, my Power Book G4 Pro laptop computer with the old Tiger operating system died this past April and I had to replace it in a hurry because I had a lot of work I had to finish. As much as I would have loved to get the Mac Book Pro, I was not willing to pay over two grand for one at that time so I settled fora Mac Book with a Aluminum body and it is much, much better computer than my previous pro model laptop and it came with the Leopard operating system. It os good to know the upgrade will only cost me $29.95. By the way, shortly after my previous Apple Computer died and I replaced it with a Mac Book, Apple came out with a new Mac Book Pro for about a hundred dollars less ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
-Claude
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-30-2009, 04:24 PM:
All Mac owners are god damn fucking assholes and deserve as much shit as PC owners can give them. They and their Macs can go to hell. Macs are pieces of shit and PCs have a much more intuitive OS. Please join me in HATING Macs and their owners! That's what the internet is for! Gripe gripe gripe!
Anyway, I am a Mac owner (and a PC owner) and I don't ever recall bitching about needing to upgrade hardware for Vista. Instead I just bitched about the shittiness of Vista itself.
Anyway, Snow Leopard doesn't seem to be able to upgrade Macs that are running 10.4.x. I tried and it just refuses to even start. All of my other specs meet the specifications, but I think you need 10.5 installed before it will go ahead. If I can get it to work I will install it on my back-up drive and play with it for a while to make sure everything runs smoothly.
Posted by Andy Bajew (Member # 5330) on 08-30-2009, 04:42 PM:
You tell 'em Joe!
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-30-2009, 04:47 PM:
What are you smoking, joe/
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-30-2009, 04:53 PM:
quote: Joe Redifer
Anyway, I am a Mac owner (and a PC owner) and I don't ever recall bitching about needing to upgrade hardware for Vista. Instead I just bitched about the shittiness of Vista itself.
And I don't ever recall saying that you were one of the people complaining about the hardware upgrade.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-30-2009, 05:06 PM:
Why bitch about a select few? Windows has even more fanboys as Mac-bashing is a VERY popular trend these days. Don't let it get to you. Any time a Mac-based thread comes up here, people are quick to come in and bitch bitch bitch. You just happened to be the first.
Claude, I was just trying to portray the attitude that I feel that most on the internet hold against Mac users.
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-30-2009, 07:42 PM:
Yes, I know, Joe
The very first computer I bought was a desktop PC and I hated that thing with a passion as well as the manufacturer's tech support. As a person who was not very mechanically inclined at the time, I never learned how to use that bloody thing because the manual was way over the top of my head and so was the tech support so I got rid of the machine and got a mac. It took me awhile but I eventually learned and come to love Apple computers. The Mac Book laptop computer I am using now is my 6th Apple computer and I just love it. Because film will soon become obsolete, a computer has become a necessity in the professional photography industry I am a part of, I am very glad I got on the computer bandwagon at the very beginning. I have a good friend just about my age who was at Brooks at the same time I was who decided to retire from the profession due to the fact that he was never able to master the use of a computer because he never tried and now spends his time at home taking care of his grand children. I love photography with a passion and now spend a good deal of time with my mac using PHotoshop CS3 Extended software and having a lot of fun creating beautiful images for my clients as well as myself with my wonderful mac computer.
-Claude
-
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-30-2009, 08:24 PM:
My son just upgraded his Mac to Snow Leopard, and he says to tell y'all he loves it.
Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 08-30-2009, 08:39 PM:
My first computer was an Apple IIe, which I kept using until 1996! I was in college and didn't have very much money, so that computer was used for many term papers.
I become insanely jealous of all my friends who were running Windows 3.1. Some had even moved to Windows 95. Those people had computers with hard drives built right in.
I wanted a computer I could practise using Photoshop with, and since my trusty Apple IIe had a whopping 128K of RAM it was not quite up to the task. I wanted to get a Mac, but at that time a basic Macintosh was significantly more expensive than a basic PC so that's what I bought. That computer had a 3GB hard drive, which pleased me enormously. I could even connect it to the internet.
These days, you don't really pay more for a Mac than a PC, or at least not much more. Not like in the late 90's. Also, they can now run Windows natively if that's what you need to do. That makes it a bit easier to switch (back), so that's what I did.
My Apple IIe is now a Macbook that I love just as much. I think that going from DOS 3.3 to Leopard was a marginal improvement.
Joe: You probably know this already, but I think your options for your Tiger machine are to install Snow Leopard clean, then use Migration Assistant to bring everything over, or install Leopard over Tiger then Snow Leopard over Leopard. I think that doing a trial of this on a spare drive like you said is a smart move.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-30-2009, 10:14 PM:
I don't even have the option of installing Snow Leopard on any drive at all. On Jen's computer (which has 10.5 installed), it only allows for an install on the non-OS drive (though I have not tried booting from it on her machine). On my computer it never even gets that far. Won't even boot from the DVD, it tries to, but it doesn't work.
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-30-2009, 11:16 PM:
quote: Chris Slycord
And on your whole laptop thing, why not just go with the lenovo you want (that has windows) and reinstall it with whatever linux distro you want? That's what I did with my netbook.
Same here on an HP laptop. Running Linux with VMWare and about six separate instances of XP - Plus Vista, Windows 7, 2000 server, even DOS 6.22 just for fun.
Have not installed Snow Leopard on either the Mac desktop or the Mac laptop yet, but have heard good things from those who have.
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 08-31-2009, 01:24 AM:
Chris, following up on buying a machine with an undesired OS preinstalled, there are two reasons other than hypothetically saving myself license costs that I would prefer no OS preinstalled. First of all, buying an OS-less box means not giving money to support something you don't necessarily actually support. Secondly, and related, making a purchase is a form of voting. If you buy a machine with Windows Vista and then format the drive and install Ubuntu or something, the market doesn't know that you didn't actually just vote for Vista, if you will. If every Linux or whatever user who wanted a new machine and didn't want a license for Windows or Macintosh only bought from dealers who sell a unit without an OS, there may just be a lot more hardware dealers that did that. Or maybe I'm just being an ideologue.
Joe, have you tried installing to a totally blank machine, ie backing up then formatting your drive with the OS so that it has nowhere else to boot from but the optical drive? That might be more trouble than it's worth to you. I'm as content with 10.4 as I probably would be with 10.5 or 10.6.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-31-2009, 02:22 AM:
I tried to install it onto a blank drive, but it just put weird installation packets onto it, not an actual OS. The DVD does not seem bootable. At first the machine recognizes it as a bootable disc, then it seems to change its mind.
Snow Leopard is very weird. You'd think they would make it to support all Intel Macs, but they only made it to support Intel macs with Leopard already installed.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-31-2009, 02:31 AM:
quote: Joe Redifer
Why bitch about a select few?
Because those select few were the ones who complained the loudest at the time.
quote: Joe Redifer
Any time a Mac-based thread comes up here, people are quick to come in and bitch bitch bitch. You just happened to be the first.
I figured you'd get that I was meaning it in a light-hearted joking manner rather than really bitching. If I were bitching about macs, would I have begun my post mentioning that I'd heard nothing but good things about the new OS? And for the record, I have plenty of friends who are normal, reasonable people who use macs.
Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 08-31-2009, 08:37 AM:
Joe, as an experiment I just installed Snow Leopard onto a freshly erased USB drive. It seems that Leopard doesn't need to be there first.
Perhaps you have a defective Snow Leopard disc. That would maybe explain the erratic behaviour you're seeing.
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 08-31-2009, 10:46 AM:
i have 10.4 on my macbook and 10.5 on my iMac... I'd like to know if I can go from 10.4 to 10.6. Can you install the upgrade on more than one machine with one license?
Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 08-31-2009, 11:03 AM:
quote: Michael Barry
Perhaps you have a defective Snow Leopard disc. That would maybe explain the erratic behaviour you're seeing.
Based on the Apple vs. PC commercials I have seen, it is impossible for anything with the Apple logo to have a flaw or to exhibit erratic or erroneous behavior. It simply can't happen.
Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 08-31-2009, 11:29 AM:
Based on the ones I've seen, they say that Macs generally work better than PC's. And they do in my experience. But they have problems just like PC's do... just to a lesser degree.
Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 08-31-2009, 11:39 AM:
Isn't a Mac a PC with just a different operating system?
Anyways.....
I prefer Linux.
I do like the name "Snow Leopard" though. Got to give to Apple for coming up with cool names.
I have heard that the new operating system is not compatible with a whole host of commercial software and hardware. Kinda like Vista - when it came out.
Which leads me to the revelation that sticking to Linux is the best bet. I built my own machine and run an operating system that I didn't pay for.
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 08-31-2009, 01:54 PM:
Dennis, that whole Mac vs. PC thing is a pet peeve of mine. My Macbook is a personal computer, as opposed to a server or rendering farm or embedded device, or whatever. I don't understand what makes one personal computing OS a "PC" while everything else is not. And I don't know if it was started by Windows people or not, but Macintosh people have sure latched onto it, apparently to demonstrate their superior computing and inferior grasp of acronyms.
Mike, having used every major iteration of Windows from 3.1 up through XP (including the fairly rare NT, and the unbelievably bad ME) and Macintosh 9 and 10 (not as many revisions of Mac), I would hesitate to say that Mac has any inherent superiority outside of fairly select applications. More consumer graphics and video programs are originated for Macintosh than for Windows, which provides an edge, but Apples productivity suite is worthless and OpenOffice hasn't actually been ported for Mac (it runs in a virtual Unix environment and the interface is terrible), so you end up having to go crawling back to Microsoft. Mac is not, in my experience, any more stable. I suffer fewer crashes with this computer than I did with computers made around the turn of the century, but I've actually suffered no crashes running XP on this hardware. So, hardware and proper maintenance go a long way. And Mac is certainly not more secure. Google "Mac java vulnerability", for example. Mac users are protected largely by their small numbers. Mac has an 8% market share in the personal computing market, compared to almost 90% for Windows. Consider that Macintosh's biggest target demographic is young people who tend to have less valuable data, and what platform would you develop malware for if you wanted to steal people's identities, or even just build a huge botnet? If Macintosh's market share rises above, say, 15% or it has a demographic shift to people who didn't spend all their money buying the computer, the platform will see a huge rise in malware targeted at it, and its user base will be ill-prepared because of people telling them for years that they didn't need to scan for viruses and trojans, and firewalls were for the poor suckers who run Windows.
I'm not saying there aren't legitimate reasons to use Macintosh. Some very well informed people choose to run Mac for reasons other than vanity or grand delusions. I'm saying that there are just as many legitimate reasons for running something other than Mac, and that I have never seen anything that makes me believe that it is actually an inherently superior platform.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-31-2009, 02:31 PM:
quote: Dennis Benjamin
Isn't a Mac a PC with just a different operating system?
Yup, and its own disk-formatting scheme as well.
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-31-2009, 03:26 PM:
Can you install Snow Leopard on an HP desktop, or is there some special chip set requirements or something that prevent you from doing that?
Posted by Jarret Chessell (Member # 5077) on 08-31-2009, 03:55 PM:
Sorry Mark, no soup for you. Mac OS's are designed to work with very specific hardware. That's one of the edges Mac has on system stability, they maintain a small pool of hardware they work with, it's generally the cream of the crop hardware too (part of the insane pricing of the systems).
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-31-2009, 04:20 PM:
You can install it on regular PC hardware by hacking the BIOS or the MAC ROM, I think.
But there is also this device which is just a dongle (pronounced "dong hole") that will permit it without going through the trouble.
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 08-31-2009, 06:53 PM:
Jarrett, there is nothing special about the hardware Apple uses. They use the same Intel chips, Seagate drives and DDR2 or DDR3 RAM (I think they use Kingston, but I'm not positive) as just about everyone else. I bought my mother a Dell around the same time I bought my Macbook, and they were virtually identical machines, with mine having a faster processor. Mine cost more than twice as much and has a glowing apple on the back of the monitor, and a worse keyboard and much worse mouse. The insane pricing goes largely to support their boutique storefront locations and the fact that they usually outspend Microsoft on marketing despite selling 1/10th the number of software licenses.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-31-2009, 07:33 PM:
quote: Michael Barry
Joe, as an experiment I just installed Snow Leopard onto a freshly erased USB drive. It seems that Leopard doesn't need to be there first.
The installer is an application that will not run under 10.4.x and the disc does not seem to boot. Can you boot from your disc?
Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 08-31-2009, 09:32 PM:
Dell is to PCs as Mac is to... Macs. Well there is no comparison I guess, but Dell computers are pretty overpriced compared to competitors.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-31-2009, 10:09 PM:
Dell's competitors do a lot more to subsidize the cheaper price of their machines by pre-installing a whole lot more crap-ware. That crap-ware is often resident on the install discs and/or hidden factory restore partition. The only way to avoid it is by getting an after market copy of Windows and hoping it can successfully install on the machine. Some of these department store computers are proprietary in nature and only work with their particular install discs.
You do get crap-ware with many of Dell's "home" and "home office" oriented machines, but not nearly as much as you get in a HP, Acer, Sony Vaio, etc.
You can get a Dell system free of crap-ware by ordering a system sold from their business section (vostro, precision workstation, etc.). But you're going to pay even more money. A dual Xeon precision workstation tower can end up costing you as much or a whole lot more than a dual Xeon MacPro tower -some of the possible configurations can go into the tens of thousands of dollars. The upshot is a machine free of crap-ware is going to work a lot better than a system spammed up with a bunch of badly coded junk software.
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 08-31-2009, 10:45 PM:
Mike, if you think Dells are overpriced, that just lends credibility to my argument that the machines Apple sells are exorbitantly priced. As I said, I got my mother almost as much hardware for half the price. Is OSX worth $700?
Bobby, I've never had a machine that had an irreparable amount of adware and other junk out of the box. And if I end up with one in the future, it won't concern me overmuch since I plan on running Linux exclusively once my Macbook needs replacing. As for the cost of high-end desktops, I think it is foolish to buy a machine, and that much greater performance and lower cost can be attained by building it. We laptop users do not have the same luxuries in that regard, but my performance needs are not particularly high, so whatever.
Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 08-31-2009, 10:56 PM:
I have HP 'business/corporate' model PCs at work, and the first thing I did when I unboxed them was to remove the crapware by doing a clean install of XP.
Fortunately, they shipped with proper XP discs in addition to the 'recovery/crapware' discs. That's something I always look for in a new PC.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-01-2009, 12:21 AM:
quote: Galen Murphy-Fahlgren
Bobby, I've never had a machine that had an irreparable amount of adware and other junk out of the box.
We must different standards about what constitutes a gross overabundance of crap-ware in Windows-based PCs. Virtually every PC I see sold in retail stores is glutted with crap-ware. I consider much of this stuff "irreparable" because you can't entirely eliminate what all it has done to gum up the Windows registry. The only way around it is formatting the hard disc and installing an after market copy of Windows or some other operating system.
For many PC users, running Linux isn't a practical option. I'm certainly not going to run my graphics applications under any sort of emulation. It's already easy enough for me to make Photoshop bring a system to its knees under native operation. No need for a layer of emulation adding to the processing load. For my purposes the only options are Windows and MacOS.
quote: Galen Murphy-Fahlgren
As for the cost of high-end desktops, I think it is foolish to buy a machine, and that much greater performance and lower cost can be attained by building it.
People who buy high end machines have other interests in mind other than merely trying to save money. Often these machines are used to make money in business. It's more important for those machines to be reliably productive right out of the box. A DIY kit built PC doesn't offer that.
I've seen lots of kit built machines run like crap over a wide variety of problems, be it unforeseen hardware/software compatibility issues or defective parts. Many of us can't spare our valuable time to put up with a bunch of that time draining garbage.
Also, the money saving claims of building your own PC have to be examined on a part by part basis. I often see kit builders eek out their savings by using the junkiest off the wall brand parts they can find -as if everything offered at NewEgg is equal in terms of quality. If I bought the same exact parts Dell puts into a Precision Workstation without doing any cheap parts substitutions I could end up spending nearly as much money.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2009, 12:21 AM:
If I use a PC, it's one I built my damn self.
Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 09-01-2009, 01:37 AM:
OSX isn't $700... It's $169, combined with ILife and IWork, two great suites of programs. I googled Vista, and it runs anywhere from $70 to $400, not including Office.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 09-01-2009, 02:50 AM:
quote: Mike Heenan
OSX isn't $700... It's $169, combined with ILife and IWork, two great suites of programs. I googled Vista, and it runs anywhere from $70 to $400, not including Office.
Saying it's not $700 is like saying that experiencing a Hemi engine doesn't cost thousands since it's only a few hundred dollar upgrade ignoring that you can only get said upgrade in addition to a car that already costs thousands.
OSX alone may cost only $169 but his point is that switching to OSX doesn't cost you $169.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2009, 03:47 AM:
Don't hate.
Everything will be OK.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-01-2009, 10:48 AM:
quote: Joe Redifer
If I use a PC, it's one I built my damn self.
I have always wanted to build my own computer but with day job + theatre, there just isn't enough time in the day. Maybe when ("if") I retire!
My most recent machine is a Dell Vostro which I bought through a friend who is a "certified Dell reseller." He gave me a really good deal and the system is crapware-free. He went thru it before delivery and deleted all the stuff I told him I didn't want. ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 09-01-2009, 10:59 AM:
Has anyone ever looked at the hardware components that make up a Dell, HP, or Gateway computer? Cheap crap.
I have built/upgraded/repaired PC's for years. What people pay for and what they get - are two different stories.
If Apple is using quality hardware components in their systems - good for them.
Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 09-01-2009, 11:03 AM:
Debating Mac vs PCs is like debating men vs women, everything that's wrong with one can be found wrong with the other. All I know is that Mac's are not perfect as they claim, but I like them much better than PC's.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 09-01-2009, 11:46 AM:
quote: Joe Redifer
Don't hate.
Everything will be OK.
Just because I respond dismissively to an argument doesn't mean that I am hating on anything.
Heck, if I had more time on my hands overall I'd try out making a partition to use for an OSX "hackintosh."
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-01-2009, 11:54 AM:
Everyone is debating hardware components. That's not what Apple is selling. They're selling a package deal that includes the hardware and the operating system and the idea that everything will "just work" out of the box without some sort of weird incompatibility or driver issues. They are also selling the ability to run Mac-specific software. In general, Apple hardware tends to be of higher quality than generic PC hardware, although this is not always the case.
There is a definite advantage to having the hardware and operating system come from the same vendor. It means not having to worry about picking and choosing hardware that will work in a given configuration and not having to worry about buggy drivers. For some people and applications, this is worth a significant price premium. The PC people have been steadily improving in this regard, but there is only so much that can be done given the huge variety of hardware that exists and the fact that the OS vendors do not manufacture or design any of it.
My objection to Apple's hardware is that they don't make anything that I would want to buy. I have a Mac Mini, which is a cute toy, but too underpowered to be a primary machine. Their laptops have glossy LCDs (with one exception) and non-removable batteries, which are both automatic deal-breakers for me. Their reasonably priced desktops only come in the "imac" model, with a built-in LCD monitor that I don't want/need. Their minitower desktops are the high-end models that are excellent, but not in my price range.
At this point, I've settled on Windows on x86 for laptop use and Solaris (Sun's Unix variant) on SPARC for everything else. Given the recent purchase of Sun by Oracle, as well as the demise of SPARC workstations, I'll probably end up with Linux or Solaris x86 on x86 for my next desktop, though I hope to stick with SPARC servers at home for the medium-term future, at least. I can live with Windows XP on a laptop, since most of my use of it is to run a terminal client and a web browser, and Windows seems to be the easiest OS to interface with "weird" network hardware, cinema equipment, and other equipment that requires a laptop to set up and configure.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-01-2009, 11:55 AM:
quote: Dennis Benjamin
Has anyone ever looked at the hardware components that make up a Dell, HP, or Gateway computer? Cheap crap.
Inaccurate generalization.
If you buy a complete system at retail for $399, yeah, it's been cheaped out to the greatest extent possible. Dell, HP, and Gateway all offer more expensive systems that use better components though. To say everything they make is cheap crap is flat-out incorrect.
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 09-01-2009, 11:57 AM:
Mike, I don't actually mean that a license for OSX costs $700. I mean that an almost functionally identical Dell with an XP license cost $700 less than my Macbook. If, for example, I had been buying a piece of hardware to replace the OS on, and I purchased both computers and formatted the hard drives and installed Debian Linux, I would have two almost identical computers with wildly varying prices. The one with the glowing apple would be $700 more, and I would have to go find a patch that made the industry non-standard mouse work.
Even if you'll actually be running the OS, the license is effectively overpriced. You mention the bundled software. Well, my computer came with iLife and a free trial of iWork. I'd used many of the components of iLife prior to owning a Mac, and they're not that good, frankly. Nobody would ever use iPhoto for serious photography, so you still have to buy Photoshop. IMovie used to be adequate for home movies or whatnot, and the only time I've used the new version I found it dumbed down and features removed. I don't even know what else is in iLife, because I found it staggeringly useless.
As for iWork, I tried my 30-day trial and decided thanks, but no thanks. It used highly proprietary file extensions, and I couldn't find a single one that saved my formatting that was common with MS Office. Try running around university with special magical files that only people with expensive computers can open. Try taking a big paper to the computer lab on a USB drive to print it, but the computers in the lab don't have anything to open it on. The moral of the story is that you can't get away with proprietary data systems when you have a tiny market share. Remember Beta?
So, to really compare my Macintosh with the Dell I bought for my mother, I have to take into account the bundled software and the minute hardware differences. My Mac had absolutely no useful (to me) software functionality over a Windows machine, and I would've had to buy all the exact same software to be happy with it, plus CygWin which is free. My computer does have a couple of other hardware features that the Dell doesn't: a built in webcam (like $20 upgrade on most Dell models; my mother has a USB one), Bluetooth (what is the purpose of Bluetooh on a laptop?), and this damn LED on the outside of the case that glows when I put the computer to sleep while I'm trying to sleep (that is irritating as hell). Also my machine has a firewire, but Apple has seen fit to remove that from current Macbooks.
In the end, one must draw comparisons between Macintosh computers and Windows computers, because they're all personal computers. Since Microsoft doesn't prohibit the installation of their software onto all hardware but that sold by them, competition and the market have made sure that Windows machines run the gamut of price points and corresponding power. Apple has chosen to market only a narrow range of goods and convince people to conform to their idea of what people should want in a computer and pay extra to do so. And then, they make you drive far out of your way to a snotty, expensive mall should you need warranty service. So, definitely the total package.
Scott: you correctly point out that Apple is pushing a whole "platform," specific hardware running specific software, with a resultant small set of drivers and optimized for a single family of processors. The problem is that things don't "just work" any better than any other competent vendor. I've never had a compatibility issue with custom or vendor hardware configurations with Windows, and have been running various versions of Windows since I was pretty much in diapers. Apple makes fun of Windows' "blue screen of death," so to make sure that doesn't happen to Mac users, they just didn't make the screen blue. As I've said numerous times, I've had my Mac crash, or lock up, or reboot itself for no reason when I was trying to put it in sleep mode a number of times.
Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 09-01-2009, 12:10 PM:
quote: David Stambaugh
If you buy a complete system at retail for $399, yeah, it's been cheaped out to the greatest extent possible. Dell, HP, and Gateway all offer more expensive systems that use better components though. To say everything they make is cheap crap is flat-out incorrect.
I get that I stereotyped. However, I have opened machines in which the individual paid well over a $1000 dollars for and seen components that were worth pennies. So, what DELL and the others sell to the average "joe" is more than likely cheap stuff.
Most of the quality stuff I have dealt with were machines that were custom built.
Keep in mind that I am speaking only of Personal Computers and Laptops. Not servers or computers being used in business applications.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 09-01-2009, 12:13 PM:
I'm with Scott. The Mac Pro is way out of my price range and I'd prefer a computer in the imac range to be able to be separated from its screen and/or with more-easily upgraded internal components.
And Galen, the reason I've seen people want bluetooth for a laptop is for a wireless mouse. It's useful to have a mouse for those times that you happen to have a bigger desk available to you, and people like having stuff w/o wires.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-01-2009, 12:40 PM:
A couple years ago we stopped buying Dell Dimensions here at work because we couldn't get them configured exactly the way we wanted, at least not at a reasonable price. I was reluctant to switch because the Dells were always solid for us, no weird problems, no DOAs. Anyway we started building our own PCs from parts. I've been meticulous about selecting quality components, no cheap crap. In spite of that we've had *far* more issues with the homemade systems than we ever did with any Dell. Example: The most recent PC we built was spec'd out with an Intel DX58SO motherboard and Intel i7 920 processor, 3 x 2GB sticks of Corsair high-performance DDR3 RAM supposedly certified for that motherboard. Everything worked fine except when the system had been running for a while, it wouldn't warm-boot, just hangs while POSTing. We spent a *lot* of time troubleshooting that, ended up buying some Kingston RAM for it, and the problem went away. Now we're RMA'ing the Corsair RAM, don't know if it's actually bad or if it's incompatible. These are the kinds of headaches you run into building your own PC. When you buy a Dell, whether it costs you $399 or $2399, all the parts are certified to play together nicely and you should not have these kinds of issues, and if something doesn't work, it's Dell's problem and doesn't become a finger-pointing contest between say, Intel and Corsair, over why the memory doesn't work.
That Intel DX58SO motherboard cost $244, the i7 920 CPU $280. Just those 2 components together cost way more than many cheap complete systems that even include a monitor.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2009, 12:58 PM:
quote: Michael Barry
Perhaps you have a defective Snow Leopard disc. That would maybe explain the erratic behaviour you're seeing.
That ended up being the problem. Different disc installed. I am running it right now from my backup drive to see how things work out. I'll give it a few days of playing before installing it on my main drive. So far, so good. I am not thrilled about the new Quicktime player and Imageready doesn't seem to work (maybe the one in the Dock can't find the original app). I know CS4 already does all, that, but Imageready works great as a dedicated app for animated GIFs. My hard drive seems to have 10 GB less space than it did when it had Tiger.
We'll see.
As for the Mac hardware issue, Mac tower would be my ONLY option, I would never even consider buying an iMac or a like PC. I need the best and only the best.
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 09-01-2009, 01:40 PM:
Joe, let us know how it stacks up. I really don't think I'll feel the need to upgrade, but I always keep an open mind. If it really is 10GB bigger than 10.4, I probably won't do it, since I only have a 160GB drive and OSX demands a lot of VRAM.
And if you needed the best, you would do like Pixar and run your own software on a rendering farm in Linux. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2009, 01:46 PM:
Yeah but I don't need to render 3D stuff.
I booted back into 10.4. Snow Leopard sure had a lot of hard drive activity for some reason. My main drive is the one that was spinning, seeking and accessing stuff like crazy. Not sure why, no changes were made to it. It normally does this for a bit after boot, but then calms down. There is nothing on that disk that the backup drive could want. The first thing I did was disable that Time Machine nonsense as well. Weird.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-01-2009, 02:02 PM:
quote: Joe Redifer
My main drive is the one that was spinning, seeking and accessing stuff like crazy.
Maybe your Snow Leopard has fleas. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2009, 02:04 PM:
Or herpes.
I'll give it another try a bit later.
Posted by Andy Bajew (Member # 5330) on 09-01-2009, 03:05 PM:
quote: David Stambaugh
To say everything they make is cheap crap is flat-out incorrect.
I couldn't agree more. If you have a general understanding of computers, you can make a PC last longer than a Mac. Every company I have ever worked at used PC's. Mac's just seem to be less user friendly and a lot harder to fix issues, when there are issues. To all you Mac lovers who suggest issues do not exist with, I ask you why there is an entire "MacFixItForum" dedicated to helping people solve their Mac issues.
It is very obvious and has been shown that the Vista OS is capable of running more software, is safer (Don't believe me? There was a hackers contest where it was shown Vista code was harder to hack than Mac) and it is cheaper for essentially a faster computer. Oh, and the undeniable fact that you can build a PC from scratch without having to worry about being sued from selling or distributing that computer...
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2009, 03:14 PM:
quote: Andy Bajew
you can make a PC last longer than a Mac.
That statement would suggest that Macs have a predefined finite life cycle.
quote: Andy Bajew
Every company I have ever worked at used PC's.
That's nice. But it might interest you to know that every video editing job I've ever held used Macs.
quote: Andy Bajew
Mac's just seem to be less user friendly and a lot harder to fix issues, when there are issues.
What do you base this statement on? The hardest fix I've ever had to do on a Mac would be to replace a power supply. Software issues are a whole different issue and they are neither harder nor easier to fix than Windows issues (depending on the issue, of course).
quote: Andy Bajew
To all you Mac lovers who suggest issues do not exist
Who has said this? Ever? Please find a link to where someone says that issues do not exist on a Mac.
quote: Andy Bajew
essentially a faster computer.
Say what? Your bias is showing. Threads like this on Film-Tech always bring out the anti-Mac bias in people even though the threads themselves aren't even about that. People just can't resist harboring ill will towards Macs. Sheep.
quote: Andy Bajew
the undeniable fact that you can build a PC from scratch without having to worry about being sued from selling or distributing that computer.
Again, where do you get this information? Who has been sued? Who has been threatened with a lawsuit for having a "Hackintosh"? You pay for the hardware and the software. I wouldn't worry about anyone getting sued if my girlfriend's cousin built a Hackintosh and sold it to her, which he did.
Posted by Andy Bajew (Member # 5330) on 09-01-2009, 03:30 PM:
quote: Joe Redifer
Again, where do you get this information? Who has been sued? Who has been threatened with a lawsuit for having a "Hackintosh"?
Didn't Steve Jobs sue New York City for copyright infringement for his apple logo?
quote: Joe Redifer
That statement would suggest that Macs have a predefined finite life cycle.
Unfortunately you failed to notice the "general understanding" part of my statement, implying it doesn't relate to every person who owns a PC. Also, assuming something is applied-how does the saying go-makes an ass out of you and me.
quote: Joe Redifer
That's nice. But it might interest you to know that every video editing job I've ever held used Macs.
Of course it would be easy for you to use "video editing jobs" as your example, since Mac's are generally understood to be best for such a thing.
quote: Joe Redifer
What do you base this statement on? The hardest fix I've ever had to do on a Mac would be to replace a power supply. Software issues are a whole different issue and they are neither harder nor easier to fix than Windows issues (depending on the issue, of course).
I see a repetition that you continue to reference everything to your personal experiences. My statement was based solely on the person's experience with fixing a PC or Mac. PC's generally have more issues, therefore more is known. As for Mac's, I am sure somewhere the lack of issues and their solutions get harder to find.
quote: Joe Redifer
Who has said this? Ever? Please find a link to where someone says that issues do not exist on a Mac.
Doesn't every Mac/PC commercial imply this?
quote: Joe Redifer
People just can't resist harboring ill will towards Macs
My preference isn't necessarily for one or the other. Most of the time it is more entertaining to take the opposing side, contrary to one's true beliefs.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 09-01-2009, 03:53 PM:
quote: Joe Redifer
Again, where do you get this information? Who has been sued? Who has been threatened with a lawsuit for having a "Hackintosh"? You pay for the hardware and the software. I wouldn't worry about anyone getting sued if my girlfriend's cousin built a Hackintosh and sold it to her, which he did.
He's probably getting his information on Apple suing for distributing a "Hackintosh" because one company (Psystar) tried selling PCs with it pre-installed and was threatened with legal action.
Granted, I can definitely see why they'd go after a company like Psystar since the computer they were originally claiming to offer was EXTREMELY WEAK in terms of specs so Apple is left with needing to go after them at least for preserving their reputation for quality.
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 09-01-2009, 03:58 PM:
quote: Joe Redifer
But it might interest you to know that every video editing job I've ever held used Macs.
This is in least at part because Apple has cornered the market on lower-end video editing. Final Cut Pro is a good low-cost editing solution. Higher-end professional editing is typically done on Windows machines with Avid Media Composer or, as I hinted at earlier, on Linux machines using proprietary software.
Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 09-01-2009, 04:19 PM:
Now we can debate what is considered "high end" video editing. The show Scrubs was edited at one time on 2 17" MBP's with FCP, and I believe a NIN concert (later released to DVD and Blu Ray) was done on one as well.
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 09-01-2009, 05:32 PM:
Mike, I use the term very casually. I'm sure you could use Final Cut to edit a feature film if you wanted, but from what I understand, major production houses and studios use Media Composer or proprietary software. I feel that this rebuts the claim that Macintosh is an inherently superior platform for video editing, although it certainly is an attractive platform due to the low cost of a platform-exclusive editing solution.
Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 09-01-2009, 05:39 PM:
Galen, you cannot possibly be serious with that statement. There is nothing "low end" Final Cut Pro, it has evert bit the professional industry acceptance that Avid does, with a long list of feature film and television credits behind it, in fact, I would venture to say that its current share of film/broadcast non-linear market has to be around 50%, from what I've observed.
Getting back OT, I have had Snow Leopard on my 2.16ghz iMac Intel Duo Core 2 since Saturday. The only issues I have observed is that Office for Mac 2004 seems very slightly slower to open than before, it may be running under Rosetta. Also, the ColorSync utility seems to have lost some of it's monitor profiles, including manual calibration. I'll have to resolve this somehow.
A frequently updated wiki of known issues with software: www.snowleopard.wikidot.com
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2009, 05:50 PM:
Galen is not in a position to define video editing standards, so ignore his comments. I have seen Final Cut Pro listed at the end of movie credits sometimes (35mm film playing in a real-to-life movie theater). Every major editing house I have ever seen jobs posted for require knowledge of Final Cut Studio. It is not the ONLY choice, but it quickly is becoming the defacto choice. As for offices, I don't care what kind of computer they use. Offices are boring so of course they will want crap like Microsoft Office and Powerpoint. Sometimes whatever proprietary software they use is developed only for Windows, just like Pennywise's CA-LINK automation software.
quote: Andy Bajew
Unfortunately you failed to notice the "general understanding" part of my statement, implying it doesn't relate to every person who owns a PC. Also, assuming something is applied-how does the saying go-makes an ass out of you and me.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your response, but I did not miss the part you claim I did. I have a general understanding of computers. That does NOT mean I can make my PC last longer than any Mac. You spoke in generalities. The way you phrased it reads "any Mac". If you are trying to say that not every Mac lasts longer than every PC, fine. Just clarify your comments in the future before you press "submit".
quote: Andy Bajew
Doesn't every Mac/PC commercial imply this?
Perhaps, but those are advertisements. Ads will also tell you that McDonald's tastes all super-wonderful or that Bounce will soften your clothes the best. What do you expect? Now provide me a link where anyone said that Macs have no issues.
Anyway, Snow Leopard is starting to grow on me. The biggest problem seems to be that it cannot play back WMA and WMV files. I could via the Flip-4-Mac plug-in in 10.4, and I do not want to buy that plug-in again just so Quicktime X can do it.
EDIT: Nevermind, WMVs and WMA's play fine. I was trying to use QT 7 instead of X. It also looks like QT 7 will do it. However when I double-click on them I get a message that says "Quicktime 7 needs to be installed to play that, asshat!" So I'll have to re-associate the file types so that double-clicking is possible.
Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 09-01-2009, 06:18 PM:
Does it play MKV files too?
Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-01-2009, 06:25 PM:
Final Cut Pro is THE BEST video editing software period! IMHO it is THE ONLY reason to have a MAC.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2009, 07:05 PM:
Dunno about MKV. Point me towards one and I will try it.
Phil, DVD Studio Pro is another good reason to own one, though that comes with the Final Cut Suite. Soooo much better than Adobe Encore. Other than that, it's pretty much about personal preference.
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 09-01-2009, 07:14 PM:
Joe, I don't mean to offend, and I did qualify my last statement in that regards. Most of my knowledge on the subject is dated by several years from my high school digital media class, which did in fact involve a decent amount of video editing. We used Final Cut Pro on G5 PowerMacs, and I generally liked it. However, at the time, people I spoke to in the industry said just what I have, that most high end stuff was NOT done on computers running Macintosh, and quick Googling I have done subsequently has never indicated a growing share in that market by Apple. This information may be dated, but it is what I was told by credible sources as recently as 2006.
I do think that you minimize the importance of productivity software. One would be decidedly hard pressed to complete college without using it, and many important professions rely on useful interpretation of data, so just because you think it is boring doesn't mean it isn't a valid standpoint from which to critique a computing system.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2009, 09:50 PM:
Just because I said they were boring doesn't mean they aren't useful. I have the shitty MS Office on my mac. Word is the only application that I like other than Entourage (which does my e-mail). EXCEL pisses me off. Hate it. Useful, but I hate it. And Powerpoint is so bad that anyone who uses it needs to be shot in the face with a high-caliber spitwad.
Here's what I need from a computer:
-Video editor
-Sound mixer
-DVD authoring
-After Effects
-Graphics/Photo editor
-Generic text editor
-Web browser
-E-mail client
-Media players
And they must all be top notch, as it is my livelihood.
Another great thing about Macs is that you can surf all manners of porn sites and not have 10,000 anti-virus programs running just to protect you. Macs are vulnerable, but due to the low market share, the anti-virus companies don't create viruses for the platform since there isn't enough of a market to really benefit from. Macs: More porn faster. You don't even need protection!
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-01-2009, 10:33 PM:
quote: Mike Heenan
The show Scrubs was edited at one time on 2 17" MBP's with FCP, and I believe a NIN concert (later released to DVD and Blu Ray) was done on one as well.
The NIN DVD, And All that Could Have Been: Nine Inch Nails Live was shot with MiniDV cameras, edited and authored using an entirely Mac-based workflow, which included Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio Pro.
The more recent NIN Blu-ray Disc release, Beside You In Time was NOT produced in the same manner. That video was shot mostly using full sized studio oriented HDTV cameras. I know this because I was at the Oklahoma City concert and saw the gear they were using to record it. The only "prosumer" gear used was the HDV camera mounted next to the drummer. That disc was authored on a Windows based system. And that's because there is no professional level Blu-ray authoring software available for the Mac platform.
Sonic Scenarist is Windows-only. Sony Blu-print and Blu-code are both Windows only. There's a couple of other off the wall Blu-ray authoring solutions available, but they too are Windows only. To do enterprise level Blu-ray authoring you need a Gawd-awful, icky, stinky Windows-based PC to get the work done. It isn't happening on a Mac. Thank you, Steve Jobs for that. Good luck with that fucking fake HD movies on iTunes thing, dickhead.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2009, 11:39 PM:
Actually it is happening on the Mac since they can just boot up in Windows to get the job done. I like the flexibility of two OSes. I would never restrain myself to just one, especially as an artist.
Apple definitely dropped the ball on Blu-ray, but that is primarily because Steve Jobs wants everything to be digital content, no physical discs ever. He doesn't understand that clients want Blu-ray. He thinks that everything should be stored on a server. To that way of thinking I say "F-you, Steve Jobs!".
Still, Adobe Encore exists on the Mac and Final Cut 7 burns Blu-rays right from the timeline. It'll even burn them to a DVD if you don't have a BD burner. You'll have to step up to Sonic Scenarist and crap like that if you need the shitty java-based funky menu nonsense, but if you just need the video content, chapters and menus, then those programs won't be beneficial over what Encore and Final Cut Pro offer. To be honest, I don't find that fancy menus make Blu-ray any better. There isn't any thing else I have witnessed while watching Blu-rays that Encore or Final Cut could not do. Maybe seamless branching. But just because it doesn't have pop-up menus and bullshit like that doesn't mean that it is amateur or somehow not "enterprise level".
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-02-2009, 12:29 AM:
The thing that gets on my nerves is Blu-ray could be at least a little farther along in development maturity if it weren't for Steve Jobs trying to misdirect anything HD-related and movie related to iTunes, iPods and iPhones. Internet downloading? In real time? Yeah. See ya in 10 years!
If Apple had been more involved with Blu-ray as the company should have been as a member of the BDA HD video editing applications on both PC and Mac platforms would be farther along in advancement due to the increased competition. And we may not have had the bullshit HD-DVD versus Blu-ray drama that dominated 2006-2008. But, no. Stuff like iTunes is more important. Nevermind what it does to compromise the professional level sector of Apple's business and open opportunities to its rivals.
Certain Apple fans can laugh at Adobe only through their ignorance. Adobe did a hell of a lot more to make Apple the popular platform for computer graphics than Apple ever did. Adobe invented Postscript. Not Apple. Adobe is the company that developed Photoshop, Illustrator, PDF, InDesign, etc. Apple didn't come up with any of those things, but Apple strangely gets all the credit for it.
One of my friends recently gave me this pitch of how we was so much more productive by doing his graphics work on a Mac. When pressed for specifics of what the Mac version of Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, etc. could do over the Windows version he couldn't come up with anything. At best there was just vague claims of "my computer crashes less."
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Lately both Apple and Microsoft have been looking to carve their way into Adobe's market. Silverlight? How the hell is that supposed to be a replacement for PDF or Flash? Aperture? How is that going to be a Photoshop-killer when Adobe's own Lightroom runs better and under far less system resources?
If Adobe is left alone long enough it will best what Final Cut Pro is able to do with high definition video editing, especially with regard to Blu-ray authoring. Adobe is not alone in this either. Avid is a pretty formidable company in its own right. I'm wondering what Autodesk is waiting on. That company has a big pool of high end technologies it can tap for jumping into the mainstream market.
Apple needs to get its shit together and start concentrating on its core market of creative professional computers users instead of listening to all the stock analysts advice. Those suits think Apple just needs to spend all of its attention on developing little electronic toys to go into the plastic purses of 16 year old girls. Teeny boppers aren't what built up the Apple brand. The professional level users did. They gave the Apple logo its prestige. I think the company is trying its hardest to lose that prestige by hawking iTunes and iPhones.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-02-2009, 04:04 AM:
Bobby, did someone at Apple piss on your Cheerios? You always seem to have a chip on your shoulder waiting for someone to say "Mac is better than PC". I don't think that you are necessarily biased (except towards Adobe), but by god you definitely want to argue about it.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Adobe is the company that developed Photoshop, Illustrator, PDF, InDesign, etc. Apple didn't come up with any of those things, but Apple strangely gets all the credit for it.
This is the first that I've ever heard of an idea that Apple gets all the credit for it. You must be hanging around with some strange peeps. The only thing that is even close to similar is that most of those apps began life on the Mac platform. That's it.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Lately both Apple and Microsoft have been looking to carve their way into Adobe's market.
Who gives a rat's testicle? Professionals will continue to use the tools that they feel comfortable with and if anything better comes along, then it will deservedly win. It sounds like you think that Adobe should never have challengers and should never have competition.
quote: Bobby Henderson
If Adobe is left alone long enough it will best what Final Cut Pro is able to do with high definition video editing, especially with regard to Blu-ray authoring.
Well, they've had plenty chances to try. Premiere Pro is still quite lacking in comparison, though a huge step up from Premiere Amateur of ages past. I don't see anything in Premiere that would make me want to use it instead of the much more-widely supported Final Cut Pro. You seem convinced that they can best ANYONE no matter what. They are Adobe, after all. They are gods. I don't know why they don't build cars, if left alone long enough they could sure kick the hell out of Ford, Honda, Toyota and whoever else. Shit, Adobe should run for President of the United States!
quote: Bobby Henderson
Apple needs to get its shit together and start concentrating on its core market of creative professional computers users instead of listening to all the stock analysts advice.
They would if there was a better return involved for them. But as far as what you say goes, I think they are doing OK except for the lack of including Blu-ray burners in their computers and changing DVD Studio Pro into a full-fledged BD/DVD authoring program. Believe it or not, most people still only want DVDs.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Teeny boppers aren't what built up the Apple brand. The professional level users did.
Apple, like every other company in the world, will do what it can to make more money. They sell shitloads of iPods and iPhones, etc. Can you give me a reason on why those things should be shoved into the back seat (aside from personal dislike of the gadgets)? But going by your argument, Adobe should concentrate on mac users. After all, it was the Mac that originally gave Photoshop, etc its "prestige".
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-02-2009, 12:36 PM:
quote: Joe Redifer
Bobby, did someone at Apple piss on your Cheerios? You always seem to have a chip on your shoulder waiting for someone to say "Mac is better than PC". I don't think that you are necessarily biased (except towards Adobe), but by god you definitely want to argue about it.
My point is the operating system and logo on the computer makes little difference. The applications are what really matters. Most people are fixated on the computing platform and I find that really annoying. The PC and Mac versions of Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, etc. are virtually identical in their functions and the files are cross-platform compatible.
Regarding Apple and the credit it gets for computer graphics, I'm pointing out a very common stereotype. The general public (read: people who don't use graphics programs) think anyone that does creative work on a computer has no choice but to do it on a Mac. The technology press even believes this. Macs are indeed very common in a lot of creative businesses. But so are Windows-based PCs. In particular niches, like 3D animation, modeling, engineering, etc. Linux has made significant inroads thanks to some professional level applications being compiled for certain builds of Linux.
quote: Joe Redifer
I don't see anything in Premiere that would make me want to use it instead of the much more-widely supported Final Cut Pro. You seem convinced that they can best ANYONE no matter what. They are Adobe, after all. They are gods.
Apple has been way ahead of rivals like Adobe, Avid, etc. for years in terms of what it did with Final Cut Studio. But the company has not been concentrating nearly as hard as it did on maintaining that lead. The point is Adobe will eventually catch up if Apple sits back and allows that to happen.
Quark Xpress used to be the dominant application for professional page layout for more than a decade. Every time a new version of PageMaker was released it only drew laughs from graphics people. Adobe kept at it, developed and improved InDesign and that application eventually overtook Quark.
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 09-02-2009, 01:15 PM:
quote:
Linux has made significant inroads thanks to some professional level applications being compiled for certain builds of Linux.
Bobby, as right as you are on all your other points, let's call this one what it is. Linux is a better platform for the sort of work that involves this kind of computing power. Linux is the most affordable OS that has a number of characteristics, specifically extremely low use of system resources, native sourcing for almost every CPU architecture, and supports 1024 CPUs. It is also generally more stable than Macintosh or Windows, whereas I've found those two to be very comparable in that regard, and it is easier to maintain.
So, does Linux make prettier pictures than Mac or Windows? No, absolutely not, but it does make a better platform for running software on a giant rendering farm with lots of CPUs (essentially a supercomputer). When your products consistently make $400-500 million, everything about the process is very deliberate.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-02-2009, 02:07 PM:
Standard Linux cannot run Final Cut Pro, and I MUST ABSOLUTELY have Final Cut Pro. It could be argued that Mac OS X is a flavor of Linux. Basically, it is. Bobby, FCP is still very full featured. Apple has not been ignoring it at all. Only DVD Studio Pro, which is still the best DVD authoring app anywhere, has really been ignored.
Anywho (don't you just HATE it when people say that? I sure do. That's why I said it), I have decided that I really like Snow Leopard and will install it on my main drive in a few minutes here. It seems to be working fine with everything I need it to, and a bit snappier as a result. The hard disk activity has stopped, it might have been building the "Spotlight" search database. By the way, searching for files and information inside any file is definitely something that Macs do better than Windows... and shit-tons faster, too!
Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-02-2009, 02:18 PM:
quote: Joe Redifer
Anywho (don't you just HATE it when people say that? I sure do. ...)
Me too! I bet people who say that live in a trailer park! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 09-02-2009, 02:25 PM:
OSX is technically derived from BSD, which is an open source UNIX, so OSX is perhaps a first cousin of Linux's, but it does not use the Linux kernel. There are a large number of other differences that can be surmised from it's operation, but it is closed source, so it is hard to tell just how different it is.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 09-02-2009, 04:21 PM:
And BSD licensing allows them to keep all their changes private so you'll never really know.
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 09-02-2009, 08:40 PM:
quote:
By the way, searching for files and information inside any file is definitely something that Macs do better than Windows... and shit-tons faster, too!
Is it using the Google search thingy?
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-02-2009, 10:50 PM:
No it uses Ask Jeeves.
Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 09-02-2009, 11:39 PM:
I started on Apple ]['s, then used Windows forever, and just switched back to Macs 3 years ago. I haven't looked back.
While Windows can be functional and necessary at times, it one of the most annoying products I've ever had to use:
-Ugly as sin
-Many 3rd party programs are counterintuitive, don't work, or just scream "an engineer designed me"
-No taste, no style, and sometimes no logic.
Since switching to a Mac, I've never had so much joy working on a computer. It's beautiful to use, interact with, and things just make sense. Apps, even third party ones, look great, function, and have some logic.
I use a Mac at home and work. At work I run Windows on it too, as well as use a range of Windows machines due to proprietary ticketing and event software. It drives me insane to use those Windows programs because of how counterintuitive, ugly, and buggy they can be.
I kind of look at it this way: Mac's have standards, Windows doesn't. Sure, Adobe CS stuff will be great on both platforms, but Adobe isn't your average software developer, they're a GIANT.
And I can't agree more that Apple is selling a user experience, not hardware and software. That is THE draw and biggest selling point of owning an Apple product.
AJG
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-03-2009, 12:26 AM:
quote: Galen Murphy-Fahlgren
Bobby, as right as you are on all your other points, let's call this one what it is. Linux is a better platform for the sort of work that involves this kind of computing power.
That's only if the applications being used run natively under Linux. I will never run a Windows-compiled version of Photoshop, Illustrator or even CorelDRAW under a layer of emulation. Certain 3D rendering programs and node-based video compositing programs do run natively under Linux and there's plenty of production houses using those kind of setups.
Both Windows and the MacOS support symmetric multiprocessing and preemptive multitasking very well. Linux gains an advantage in terms of licensing costs when the processing load is spread out across a rendering farm.
quote: Joe Redifer
Standard Linux cannot run Final Cut Pro, and I MUST ABSOLUTELY have Final Cut Pro. It could be argued that Mac OS X is a flavor of Linux. Basically, it is. Bobby, FCP is still very full featured. Apple has not been ignoring it at all. Only DVD Studio Pro, which is still the best DVD authoring app anywhere, has really been ignored.
FCP doesn't properly support Blu-ray authoring. I think that's a significant drawback, especially when Adobe's Production Studio suite has been offering BD support for 2 version cycles. I think if Apple had embraced Blu-ray a couple or so years ago (like Adobe did) all of the video editing suites from Apple, Adobe, Avid, etc. would be even better as a result of the increased competition.
The judgment "everyone just wants DVD" is pretty contrary to Apple's previous history of being on the cutting edge. Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio Pro were products well ahead of their time. They were made available well before DVD burners and blank DVD discs were affordable to everyone. Most people were still buying/renting movies on VHS at the time.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-03-2009, 03:18 AM:
quote: Bobby Henderson
FCP doesn't properly support Blu-ray authoring.
Tell me what is wrong with this (which is right from the FCP timeline):
If you have a Blu-ray burner, you can do that as well. And why should the VIDEO EDITING application get points knocked off for not being a full-featured BD Authoring app as well? The editing app shouldn't be expected to do ANY authoring of any kind! It's amazing that FCP even does this. I guess Premiere Pro sucks donkey balls for not even going this far, eh? Anyway, the lack of "proper" BD authoring is DVD Studio Pro's fault, which I already mentioned. Final Cut Pro is a VERY full featured editing application as I said before. Final Cut Pro is NOT being ignored by Apple, not in the least. DVD Studio Pro is. Please, I do not wish to type that a 3rd time. Bobby, knocking an editor over not being able to burn "proper" BDs is grasping at straws. But then again, you don't really do video or even, to my knowledge, aspire to (beyond regular camcordered home movies). So your opinions on the video subject don't really count as much as those who do. You just want to bitch about Apple.
Encore is a major pain for authoring anything, and even it is FAR from a "proper" Blu-ray authoring program.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-03-2009, 01:04 PM:
quote: Joe Redifer
The editing app shouldn't be expected to do ANY authoring of any kind! It's amazing that FCP even does this. I guess Premiere Pro sucks donkey balls for not even going this far, eh? Anyway, the lack of "proper" BD authoring is DVD Studio Pro's fault, which I already mentioned.
Joe, I have been referring to Final Cut Studio on the whole. DVD Studio Pro is part of that suite. Cursory, no frills BD writing support from the video editing application alone is very basic -especially when compared to what all the FCP studio can do with DVD authoring.
It's also worth repeating Apple doesn't sell any of its systems with a Blu-ray burner or BD combo drive. And there's no sign of them doing so in the future either. Apple just makes their customers buy something after market that they won't support. Meanwhile, you can buy other computers with BD burners factory equipped and with full warranty support often for a less money as well. Apple's systems are expensive, but with good reason. Still, the lack of a cutting edge BD burner is a serious knock and will become more of a problem as Blu-ray continues to grow in popularity.
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