Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Which sequel / prequel surpass the original?

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Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 10-22-2009, 03:18 PM:

After reading Film God J.R.'s sequel/prequel "dead to me" post, I was wondering which s/p's are better than the original.

Most recent choice would be Ice Age 3. This series just gets funnier and better even though the first two are great flicks.

Toy Story 2 also beat the original for similar reasons, so I have high hopes for TS 3.

Cheers

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-22-2009, 03:51 PM:

-Toy Story 2

-The Empire Strikes Back

-Lethal Weapon 2 (barely)

-Die Hard 4 (much better than parts 2 and 3, anyway)

-Terminator 2

-Aliens

Posted by Caleb Johnstone-Cowan (Member # 3710) on 10-22-2009, 04:01 PM:

The Godfather Part II, does that count as a sequel and prequel ? It's my favourite film anyway.

I want to say Return of the King, but not the last half an hour!

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-22-2009, 04:56 PM:

I think we already covered this in another thread, but:

Superman II

I used to like Die Hard 2 better than the original, but I came to my senses a few years ago and now like the first one best.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 10-22-2009, 05:13 PM:

Road Warrior blew away it's predecessor Mad Max and its successor Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. I guess we'll never get to see Fury Road.

In certain circles Sanjuro is considered better than Yojimbo.

I'm sure one of the Bond movies is better than the first. [Wink]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-22-2009, 07:06 PM:

Agreed regarding Mad Max 2: The Road Warrior. Definitely much better than its predecessor.

I liked Spiderman 2 a LOT more than Spiderman.

I also liked X-Men 2: X2 United more than the first installment, even though the Ice Man character didn't freeze the water at the end.

The movie version of Patriot Games seemed better than The Hunt for Red October, although I preferred the book The Hunt for Red October more than Patriot Games.

Silence of the Lambs is obviously a much better movie than Manhunter or any of the other movies with the Hannibal Lecter character. However, I think the book Red Dragon is a better novel than The Silence of the Lambs. The movie version of Silence even re-purposed parts of Red Dragon into its narrative.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-22-2009, 09:23 PM:

"Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan"

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-22-2009, 10:11 PM:

"Goldfinger"

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 10-23-2009, 10:39 AM:

All of the STAR TREK sequels except INSURRECTION

Bad Boys II

The Dark Knight

Before Sunset

Blade II & Trinity

From Russia, With Love
Goldfinger
On Her Majesty's Secret Service
GoldenEye
Tomorrow Never Dies
The World is Not Enough
Die Another Day

Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle

Escape from L.A.

The Silence of the Lambs
Hannibal

Highlander: Endgame

The Incredible Hulk

Jason X
Freddy vs. Jason

The Lost World: Jurassic Park

Mission: Impossible II & III

The Muppets Take Manhattan
Muppets From Space

Desperado
Once Upon a Time in Mexico

Rocky Balboa

After the Thin Man

Spider-Man 2

All of the STAR WARS movies except EPISODE I and CLONE WARS

X2

Superman Returns

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-23-2009, 12:07 PM:

quote: Mike Schindler
All of the STAR TREK sequels except INSURRECTION

Surely you don't include that "save the whales" tripe called "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home!"

And, the only good thing about "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier" was Spock's marshmallow generator!

Posted by Joe Tommassello (Member # 4632) on 10-23-2009, 01:44 PM:

Mike! Escape from L.A. is better than Escape from New York? That's just insane pal. Not even open for debate!

Highlander:Endgame better than Highlander?

Lost World better than Jurassic Park?

Man, you have to be kidding. Well what can I expect from a guy who thinks "Return of the Jedi" is the best Star Wars film.

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 10-23-2009, 01:48 PM:

quote:
Surely you don't include that "save the whales" tripe called "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home!"

You say that like everyone hates STAR TREK IV, when in fact, it's probably the most popular film in the whole series (aside from the new one, of course).

quote:
And, the only good thing about "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier" was Spock's marshmallow generator!

I think we've been over this in another thread, but not only does STAR TREK V star William Shatner, it was directed by him too. That makes it twice as awesome. Duh...

About that marshmallow (or should I say marshmellon?) generator, they actually did a cross-promotion with Kraft, where you could send in proofs of purchase to get one of your very own. There's one on eBay right now for ten bucks.

quote:
Mike! Escape from L.A. is better than Escape from New York? That's just insane pal. Not even open for debate!

That's not a knock on EFNY by any stretch of the imagination. But yes, EFLA is better. In fact, I'd say it's John Carpenter's best movie. For one thing, the satire is much sharper and more refined. I also think that it's the movie where Carpenter finally cracked the idea of genre-bending that he'd been playing with for basically his whole career. It really was a true fusion of sci-fi and western as opposed to just a sci-fi movie with western elements. The big criticism of EFLA that I always hear is that it's essentially a remake of EFNY. Well, yeah. It's supposed to be. That's where most of comedy comes from. I don't see that as a problem. It's a perfectly valid creative decision. So yeah, EFLA is better than EFNY. Truth hurts. Deal with it. [Razz]

quote: Joe Tommassello
Highlander:Endgame better than Highlander?

I could be wrong about this. It's been a while since I've seen either, and there's lots of weird issues surrounding ENDGAME as far as the director getting fired halfway through editing, and which version is the real version, etc. But my impression of the first movie is that it's not as good as I'd like to pretend it is. And my impression of ENDGAME is that it's better than it has any right to be. So I'm gonna say that ENDGAME is better than the original. But it wouldn't surprise me if I changed my mind after watching them again.

quote: Joe Tommassello
Lost World better than Jurassic Park?

Absolutely. This is one where I can't really figure out why everyone else doesn't see agree with me. THE LOST WORLD is much better than JURASSIC PARK in every conceivable way.

For one thing, there's the script. It actually has a story where, you know, things happen and stuff. JURASSIC PARK has nothing more than a framework on which to build elaborate set pieces.

And the set pieces in THE LOST WORLD are better. A lot of that has to do with the editing. JP drags. It's just one perfectly framed glamour shot after another. LW has a much faster rhythm which suits the movie's grimier aesthetic.

That being said, the photography has that super-beautiful Janusz Kaminski gloss to it. I think it's some of his best work to date.

LW is also a lot funnier than JP, thanks in no small part to the cast. It was smart to take full advantage of Jeff Goldblum, and he's surrounded by people who play well off of him, like Julianne Moore and Vince Vaughn.

When I look at THE LOST WORLD, I see everything that Spielberg is known for firing on all thrusters. It is assembled with such precision that you cannot help but admire it. I think it's his best work of the past 20 years.

quote: Joe Tommassello
Man, you have to be kidding. Well what can I expect from a guy who thinks "Return of the Jedi" is the best Star Wars film.

Where'd you get that idea from? Of the seven STAR WARS films, I would put JEDI at number 4.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-23-2009, 02:37 PM:

quote: Mike Schindler
STAR TREK IV, when in fact, it's probably the most popular film in the whole series

"The Wrath of Khan" wasn't the pinnacle?

Posted by Joe Tommassello (Member # 4632) on 10-23-2009, 03:23 PM:

Mike:

I think I confused your Star Wars ratings with Galen - you remember...the guy who called Janusz Kaminski a dipshit! I would put ROTJ at number five with Phantom Menace being the worst.

We really have to disagree on a lot of your titles. Seriously...Superman Returns was a film I liked but better than the first? Or the Donner Cut of 2? Or any Star Trek even approaching Wrath of Khan (including the new one)? I don't even know where to start disagreeing.

Some of the titles you mention just seem crazy. Jurassic Park was a phenomenon. The sequel was dull by comparison until it became a remake of Gorgo at the end. Admittedly I haven't seen Highlander:Endgame but I don't have to...the original movie was a complete, self-contained story that had an ending. He was the final immortal and received "the prize"...everything that followed was just Hollywood jerking us off for a few more dollars.

One of the criteria by which I approach a sequel is whether it invokes the same sense of excitement or feeling that you have been transported that was present upon viewing the original film. If it can't do that I cannot consider it better just because it may be technically more dazzling. If you look at the films on my list...indeed most people's list on this subject...they are almost all spawned from films that were quite original compared to most Hollywood junk. No one put "I Still Know What You Did Last Summer" or "Friday the 13th 2" on their list.

I think many film fans could count on their fingers the number of sequels they feel actually surpassed the originals. Here are a few that come to mind (most have been already mentioned):

Definites:

Star Trek: Wrath of Khan
Dark Knight
Army of Darkness
For A Few Dollars More
Goldfinger

Maybes:

Godfather Part Two
Aliens
T2
Empire Strikes Back
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Harry Potter & the Prisoner of Azkaban

Edit: Reviewing above I would agree with you about Desperado over El Mariachi but OUATIM wasn't even close. Joe Redifer has an interesting entry with Lethal Weapon 2. I liked 4 a lot also.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-23-2009, 04:28 PM:

The only thing I even remember from Lost World is the gymnastics move and Jeff Goldblum's line "You didn't make the team?" or something similar. That whole scene made me do a massive face palm. And wasn't Vince Vaughn in it? He automatically makes any movie he is in full of lose.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-23-2009, 06:48 PM:

Trek IV remains my favorite Trek movie...even better than Trek II the Wrath of Kahn.

As for Star Wars...Empire was my favorite, then original...the rest didn't do it for me...particularly the latest batch.

I've always much preferred The Godfather over GF:2 but I'm in a minority on that one, I think.

Steve

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 10-23-2009, 07:15 PM:

quote: Tim Reed
"The Wrath of Khan" wasn't the pinnacle?

Not really. Sure, most people who are fans of the franchise will say that KHAN is the best. But THE VOYAGE HOME was initially embraced by a much larger audience when it first came out.

quote: Joe Tommassello
Seriously...Superman Returns was a film I liked but better than the first?

Yes, because it didn't involve Superman reversing the earth's rotation to turn back time.

quote: Joe Tommassello
Or the Donner Cut of 2?

Yes, because it didn't involve Superman reversing the earth's rotation to turn back time.

Was SUPERMAN RETURNS a great movie? No. But it wasn't mind-numbingly stupid, which is more than I can say about any other Superman movie.

quote: Joe Tommassello
Or any Star Trek even approaching Wrath of Khan (including the new one)?

I never said anything about any movie being better than THE WRATH OF KHAN. All I said is that THE VOYAGE HOME and the new one are more popular.

quote: Joe Tommassello
One of the criteria by which I approach a sequel is whether it invokes the same sense of excitement or feeling that you have been transported that was present upon viewing the original film. If it can't do that I cannot consider it better just because it may be technically more dazzling.

What you describe sounds like the basis for a movie which is not better than the original, but just as good.

I would argue that the best sequels transport you to a place that the original didn't. That can mean a number of things. ALIENS, while not better than ALIEN, is one of the best sequels of all-time because it didn't feel like the same movie. It felt like its own movie. Then there are movies like THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, which does take you to the same place as the first movie. But instead of trying to recreate that experience, it builds on top of it to make something even better. And finally, there are movies like THE INCREDIBLE HULK, which learn from their predecessor's mistakes, and take you to places that the first movie tried and failed to take you.

quote: Joe Tommassello
I think many film fans could count on their fingers the number of sequels they feel actually surpassed the originals.

I think those people need to see more movies, because there are a ton of good sequels out there.

How come I'm the only one who's getting his picks critiqued? How come no one's jumping all over Bobby for saying that PATRIOT GAMES is better than THE HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER? That's crazy talk.

And Joe, INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE? Seriously? It's like a decaffeinated version of RAIDERS. Sure, I'll take it if there's nothing else, but if you've got RAIDERS then you go with RAIDERS.