Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: The Oldest Electronic Gear You Have

This is topic The Oldest Electronic Gear You Have in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 11-24-2009, 09:16 AM:

AND What do you do with it?

I'm asking because yesterday I finally "threw out" a daisy wheel printer from 1983, a scanner from 1998 (which used a printer port to connect to the computer), an external Iomega zip drive (which also used the printer port), a ni-cad battery charger (which could charge up to 8 D batteries at a time!) and lots of other odds and ends. I wasn't using any of it anymore but I just never felt like it was junk, because it still worked when I stopped using it. However, I couldn't stand the clutter and I really did hate to see some of it go after all these years (especially the 50-year-old speakers, although I had no use for them and they were part of a system which no longer exists). So many memories of obtaining and then using that stuff.

And, by the way, I dumped them at a legitimate electronics recycling center so I wouldn't feel irresponsible. Today, I still have plenty of other things which I see with the eyes of a predator. (Be careful, my first CD player which now has a sticky drawer, because now I know where to dump you!)

Anyhow, I wondered about the rest of the Film-Tech crowd. I figured there must be a lot of us holding onto old gear and a lot of us finding clever ways to make old gear continue to do something useful. You folks might even have some great insight to share about nice ways to get rid of old gear. So I'm asking for these stories.

(I kept this.)

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-24-2009, 10:50 AM:

Although I don't really have anything I'd consider vintage, I have a Panasonic home receiver with an 8-track recording deck built in. I use it as a pre-amp for our non-sync music in the booth and also for music-listening when I'm doing film work. The volume control is a little noisy and I doubt the tape deck still works, but the unit is still kicking after nearly 30 years of daily use. In fact it never gets turned off. Connected to it, we have a 20+ year old Pioneer CD player.

At home I still have an ancient Hitachi cassette deck; a Technics turntable from back in the days when they were making heavy-plattered direct drive tables for home use; and a set of SL-7 Technics speakers. These are all connected to an old Panasonic receiver, and I ran the tape-outputs from the receiver to my computer, so I can rip from either format for editing, or even record off the radio if need be.

Downstairs, we have a set of Akai speakers from around 1976 connected to our TV setup. They still sound excellent. I'll bet there are lots of old speakers around...I sold a set of huge Marantz speakers to a friend of mine in 1978 and he's still using them on his home system today.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-24-2009, 11:42 AM:

I've got one of these:

And one of these:

The radio is older than the generator but the generator still works.

Oh, yeah! I've got a nice Tek scope, there, too!

I took the chassis out of the radio because I wanted to recap it but I couldn't find the right part to replace the mica bypass cap across the line input. That's the one that I was told to be sure I got right because it has a tendency to go up in smoke, thus setting your house on fire. Thus the reason the whole thing is in my garage. The wife doesn't want it in the house because she thinks it's a fire trap... But, if I ever get the thing recapped, it won't be.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 11-24-2009, 04:13 PM:

This early 1920's Pathé 28mm projector's lamp works off of either 110 wall current though the transformer pictured, or off the generator (looks like a motor) attached to the hand crank.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-24-2009, 07:16 PM:

I am soooo envious! [Big Grin]

Where'd you get that, Mitchell? And what is the film of?

Posted by Todd McCracken (Member # 4718) on 11-25-2009, 02:04 PM:

Ive got a 1918 Singer sewing machine that was converted to electric. Darn if I know where it is though [Razz]

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 11-25-2009, 02:22 PM:

quote: Tim Reed
Where'd you get that, Mitchell? And what is the film of?

After years of hunting, I got it off of eBay about a decade ago. It is a Pathé model KOK projector. Note that some people believe that the KOK was 9.5mm, an inaccuracy from an old book on Pathé projectors. The KOK was always 28mm, and used safety film from day one. One sprocket hole per frame on one side (at the frame line), 3 sprocket holes per frame on the other so you can not accidentally flip the image or thread out of frame.

The film is the second half of some 1800's costume picture that I have never been able to identify.

I also have a similar vintage Krupp-Ernemann 35mm table top projector that is almost an exact knockoff of the Pathé KOK, except the Ernemann is 35mm.

And finally, I have a Pathé 17.5mm sound projector that appears to be from the late 1930's. What is unusual about this projector is that it does not have an exciter lamp, the exciter sound comes from the main projection bulb, bounced via an externally mounted mirror, onto the the photocell.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-25-2009, 04:58 PM:

Come on, those projectors are NOT electronic! They may be electric, but that is different.

This is probably the oldest fully working piece of electronic equipment that I have, at least that I know of:

Not a stock photo.

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 11-25-2009, 05:00 PM:

Old Collins 75A2, A3, A4 series ham radio receivers from the early/mid-50's. Also a pair of McIntosh MC-40 tube power amplifiers from the early 60's (P-P 6L6GC's). An RCA 77-D ribbon microphone from the 50's ("Larry King" mic, of course, his is just a replica shell with no innards...they use small clip-on mics to get audio pick up) And last, but not least, my BX-40 Brenkerts and SH-1000's which are pre-war ( WW II, that is ).

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 11-25-2009, 07:44 PM:

I'm a big 77-d fan, they are getting veery pricey these days.

Posted by Marc Hansen (Member # 705) on 11-25-2009, 09:27 PM:

Atwater-Kent Model 20C made in 1925

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-26-2009, 04:23 AM:

quote:
Oh, yeah! I've got a nice Tek scope, there, too!

Yea, go ahead and rub it in on how good a 465B is [Big Grin]

Wow a "NES" system .. like mine.. Wish I still have my Fairchild "Channel F" videogame system...1977

Got my father's Zenith "Trans World" receiver .. and a tube checker.

quote: Mitchell Dvoskin
1920's Pathé 28mm

What kind of intermittent/shuttle claw mechanism does that unit have?

-Monte

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 11-26-2009, 11:06 AM:

Monte, it's a claw pull down, with claws on both sides for an even pull.

Joe Redifer, I still have a working Atari 2600, although probably the oldest purely electronic device I own would be an American Marconi table radio, battery operated on "B" cells. Don't know the radio's exact age, but since American Marconi was sold and became RCA in 1919, my guess is it is from the late teens.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 11-26-2009, 06:29 PM:

I got a Channel F game system from someone who worked at my old long-time theater. I'm hoping they keep including analog TV tuners in new TVs for a while, since that's the only way to hook up old game systems. Otherwise I'll have to use a VCR tuner.

I have an RCA SGT-250 stereo CED videodisc player made in July 1982 hooked up to my system, which I got a few years ago from an Ebay seller- it had never been used until it came into my hands. I had to made a few adjustments on it to get it to start at the very beginning, and it ran a little funny the first day but it's gotten used to being alive now.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-26-2009, 07:45 PM:

I collect old Western Electric telephones. The oldest of these is a 302 desk set from 1938, which is complete and works fine. I don't have it hooked up at the moment, but it is one of the few pieces of technology that one can still use productively every day.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 11-26-2009, 10:12 PM:

I inherited this from my dziadzia (Polish for grandpa if you must know).

It also came with projector and screen, which are still at my mom's place. I'd imagine the camera would work (it's in MINT condition) with some new batteries and film stock.

AJG

Posted by John Lasher (Member # 968) on 11-26-2009, 10:19 PM:

Oldest... probably the 1960s-era record changer and 8-track/receiver my grandfather gave me when I was 3 (along with 3 "Sing Along With Mitch" albums*). I know for a fact the record changer doesn't work properly (inconsistent speed and it will sometimes drop the needle back on the record when it stops, instead of returning it to the rest.) I have no idea whether or not the 8-track deck works, never used it.

Oldest piece of electronic equipment that works: mid-late '80s era JCPenney VHS VCR (no idea who really made it), counts tape in feet (I think), front loading, not programmable AFAIK, decent still/slow-mo features, separate Stop/Eject buttons, One-Touch-Record button will eject a tab-out tape, record for 30-minutes on a tab-in tape with no way to stop it other than pulling the plug. My parents, though close to blinking 12s now, managed to keep the clock set to the right time.

*This came in handy in my teens when the youth group from church would visit the retirement home (not a nursing home) with Easter/Christmas/Halloween( [evil]

) Decorations, I would always be elected to play piano (because I was the only one in the group who knew how) and I knew all of those old songs. My "friends" in the group would stare at me sideways (I knew I was doing something right when they did that.) while the old folks sang along.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-26-2009, 10:26 PM:

I have a Sony 3/4" U-matic editor, which I have absolutely no use for anymore. (This isn't my machine shown here, but a posed photo of the same model. If anyone wants it, though... it's available for pickup. [Wink]

)

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 11-27-2009, 04:27 PM:

My Pioneer SX 650 Receiver -- 33 years and still going strong.
I do have a working AR XA turntable from the late 60s but it is more electrical than electronic.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-27-2009, 06:06 PM:

Still have my original ham gear from about 45 years ago. A Lafayette HA225 receiver and a Knight Kit T-60. Worked all states on an 80 meter dipole that started in our yard and ended on the other side of our neighbor's.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-28-2009, 12:26 AM:

You still active, Jack?

de W3HR

Posted by John Lasher (Member # 968) on 11-28-2009, 05:11 PM:

Oh... I do, of course have my B&H 1582 C

...which still works pretty well, I thread it manually, in spite of it's auto-shred ability. I intend to purchase either a second machine or some sort of long-play device within the next year.

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 11-28-2009, 06:57 PM:

Here's our oldest television, an RCA 8TS30 from 1948. It's the only antique tv we have with Channel 1. The video works, the audio works, but both are so out of alignment with each other that only one of them can be tuned in at a time. Just haven't had the motivation to get it aligned.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-28-2009, 07:14 PM:

That is friggin' awesome!

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 11-28-2009, 10:24 PM:

Anyone who appreciates old televisions, radios, and other vintage gear should check out the audio and video karma forums: http://www.videokarma.org http://www.audiokarma.org

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 11-28-2009, 11:15 PM:

Sean, you're right. audiokarma is a great site for enthusiasts of electronics of any era. Through it, we found a NOS "pencil box" cover to finish our otherwise original and complete 1950 Zenith "porthole."

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-28-2009, 11:39 PM:

I'd love to try and play videogames on that thing or maybe watch a Blu-ray.

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 11-28-2009, 11:56 PM:

Yeah Joe, that would be trippy!

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-29-2009, 09:14 PM:

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 11-30-2009, 01:43 AM:

This is currently the oldest electronic piece of equipment I have at the moment. We cuddle up in bed at night. [Big Grin]

These are some pictures of a valve cinema amplifier that was rescued from the Howard Cinema in Queensland. It was last used, as far as I could tell, sometime during the '70's, and she fired up first time. The "normal" side is ok, but the "emergency" side suffers from electro-cap crackle. Im looking forward to bringing her right up to scratch.

I just love RCA valve amps. They have personality.......ok- call me weird. [Big Grin]

The date on the QA card is 6/5/59

This is the plate on the emergency amplifier, the suffix is changed from "D" for the normal amp to "A" for the emergency.

Feel the warmth and the love. RCA MA 9257 D lives!

Cheers
Ian

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-30-2009, 09:10 AM:

I have an RCA 44bx microphone. It is easily the best sounding mike I have and I even have a couple of new Neumann's.

Everyone sounds like Bing Crosby with a 44bx. Louis

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-30-2009, 09:44 AM:

quote: Tim Reed
You still active, Jack?

Not for a long long time, Tim. I lost the bug (literally) when I moved on to movies and broadcast radio. There have been times when I've regretted that. However, I doubt my wife would have thought much about me hauling old broadcast transmitters around, as we moved from there to here.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-30-2009, 10:13 AM:

A trip to a good hamfest always piques my interest! [Wink]

Posted by Tony Gallimore (Member # 5358) on 11-30-2009, 02:54 PM:

Unfortunately my shop is so loaded with outdated equipment, I don't have room to continue my wayward pack rat habits. Here are a few I have stashed...

RCA Wide Range Oscillator
HP 333A Distortion Analyzer
Assorted interface units

All of the above coupled with a frequency counter were used for proof of performance measurements when I was into broadcast engineering. There used to be a field strength meter somewhere in here too. Probably under something.

A Navysurplus R5007 short wave receiver. I still tune into a few broadcasts occasionally.

In the film line... 4 16mm's retired from the school system I retired from. 2 B&H's, 1 Eiki, and a Graflex. There's another really old one that I haven't even taken the cover off. An old Century W3-11 mono sound system with field booster. Picked it up from a closed drive in... literally picked it up... off the field. Vandals had broken in and boogered it up. We rebuilt the booster, converted it to different tubes. It was working great when last fired up. The W3-11 was in repair but the schematic was in such bad condition we couldn't make out all the connections and circuits, so it was set aside before it was finished.

Now if I get to moving a few things around I'll find all sorts of electronic components, resistors, caps, etc., a few IC's and transistors. What a mess! Where's the vacuum cleaner?

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 12-01-2009, 05:49 PM:

Ah yes Louis, the 44 BX is a great bi-directional mic. It gave ba-ba-ba-Bing his fanmous mellow full bodied sound. Wish I had one...have a ham radio buddy who has re-ribboned one---sounds super over the air. Back the in the 1930's the microphone techonology sure exceeded recording capabilities!

Posted by Jack Theakston (Member # 4484) on 12-01-2009, 06:15 PM:

quote:
Back the in the 1930's the microphone techonology sure exceeded recording capabilities!

In practice, yes, but technically no. Late '20s/early '30s recordings can be incredibly high fidelity, but the steel needles and heavy tone arms that were being used to play would wear down the fine grooves after even just one play, removing that width of sound. Most labels started fattening their EQs to accommodate this, severely limiting the quality of the sound, but making for more lasting records.

Those early electric era records can sound wonderful if they haven't been torn up by a fat needle and played back through the proper EQ. I've heard some examples sound like they were recorded yesterday.

Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 12-01-2009, 06:20 PM:

I throw away most of the old stuff.

In working order, oldest interesting stuff I can remember, there's still somewhere a Super8 Beaulieu 4008 camera (release date MK1, I'm sure batteries would have to be rebuilt) and a couple of japanese VHD videodisc players (those similar to Laserdisc that released several 3D movies), Bauer Super8 projector and moviola, etc.

Not sure where the 16mm stuff is, probably gone too.

Plain electronic equipment: all old radio receivers are long gone, as is most analog audio equipment (open reels, magnetic film sound recording, etc).

I don't think anything survived that is older than '75 or so, except for filmed stuff itself [Wink]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-01-2009, 09:51 PM:

So, umm, I guess no one wants my U-matic editor, then?

Posted by Jack Theakston (Member # 4484) on 12-02-2009, 07:05 PM:

Tim, you might offer it to places specializing in antique tape services. Since a lot of these machines aren't made anymore, lots of these places have to cannibalize older machines to get the right heads, etc.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-02-2009, 07:09 PM:

Tim--no, but I have a BVU-950 and wouldn't mind getting another one of these (yours looks like a BVU-850, which is even heavier and bulkier). I also have two VO-8800 "portable" decks, but would like to get the timecode card for those.

(I have this weird idea about re-inventing 1986, in all of its crappy-looking analog video glory.)

Strangely, the hardest thing to find was a 19-pin to 14-pin (Ikegami to Sony) camera cable (I have one now).

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-03-2009, 01:01 AM:

Thanks, guys. Scott, yes, you're a good step up from what we had at the station I worked in '91.. 7700's and 850s.

I'd really like someone to come pick it up, though, so I don't have to move it ever again. [Wink]

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 12-03-2009, 06:12 PM:

I'd take the U-Matic machine if it wasn't so far away, and I'm too cheap to pay for shipping right now.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-03-2009, 06:36 PM:

Nice TV's Hillary! I have a 630ts and an 721ts with matching stand. Alignment if you can find the right person is not that difficult. If you're interested you should contact the TV Museum in Ohio and they could probably refer you to someone. These sets can produca amazing pictures as the video bandwidth at the CRT goes to well over 4mhz! They did this by using seperate picture and seperate sound IF strips.

Mark

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 12-03-2009, 07:15 PM:

Thanks Mark! Your models are nice examples. You can tell the 630ts and the 8ts30 are basically the same sets, and that chassis is the basis for so many tv's at the time! I'd like to find a 621 or pre-war model (I can dream, can't I?) We do have a 1956 CTC-5 "roundie" color set that works, but could use a few new caps.

John has been in contact with local tv repairmen from back in the day. Either they have no interest in working on something that old, and/or have thrown out the old test equipment. [Mad]

Are you referring to the Early Television Foundation? We never thought of writing to them. Definitely worth a try. Thanks for the suggestion! [thumbsup]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-03-2009, 07:41 PM:

Yea... the elusive 621! There have been a few on E-bay that went for over $3500.... The closest I've come to aquiring one is a decent used CRT for one. Yea, Early Television Museum. There are alot of people connected with that museum and the key is finding someone that can align and has either old equipment made for doing so that has been restored or someone with new fancy spectrum analyzers and sweep generators. The latter would give better results. The Museum in Ohio also has has a 1949 remote truck that was originally bought by KDYL, one of the first TV Stations in Salt Lake City! It is still equipped with most of the origi9nal equipment.... TK-30 cameras.

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 12-03-2009, 08:45 PM:

Don't get me started on broadcast equipment! I keep telling John I want a TK-41 color telelvision camera! He doesn't take that request very seriously, but told me about the old TK-30's and such he saw stored at WSBA (the oldest surviving UHF station, which doesn't mean as much since the switch to DTV) when he worked there. Naturally, he taunts me by speculating those cameras ended up in the dumpster. [Frown]

Maybe I mentioned it before, but here is the kind of collection I'm trying to build (yeah, right!) [Big Grin]

It would be great to get that old RCA working properly. I have a VHS of kines from the late 1940s for whenever that happens.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-03-2009, 09:29 PM:

Chuck Pharis has the largest collection in the world... even larger then the Smithsonian. He sets a few of them up at NAB just about every year and has them working.

No old RCA Toobe cameras around here... unfortunately. I missed a TK-30 on E-bay last summer that a customer of mine pointed out to me. I missed the end of auction time. It only went for about $900, very reasonable for that vintage camera.

I can send you a 1984 Sony BVP-360 triax camera chain that does produce a picture. This was a very revolutionary camera in it's day and the last toobe studio camera built by anyone. Some of the last BVP-360's actually went out as CCD cameras badged BVP-370. No pedestal or friction head though... Camera Head, Viewfinder, Fujinon Zoom, and CCU. I aquired three of them in a package deal early this past summer for 700 bucks... just pay shpping if you want it or pick it up here. The lens is the only actual valualable part of the camera. I just want to keep one for display and find the others good homes. Shipping weight is about 200 pounds total. Film-Techer Bob Jones used to work with these cameras at Sporting Events.... this trio came from Alabama Public TV.

Also see: www.eyesofageneration.com

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 12-03-2009, 09:54 PM:

Thanks for the offer! I'll see if I can wear down John for some extra room around here. He's always buying old radios on ebay, so there must be some space to put this stuff!

Just checking out that site. Definitely one to "favorite." [Cool]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-03-2009, 10:04 PM:

quote: Hillary
...I want a TK-41 color telelvision camera!

I liked the TK-42 better...I grew-up with them when I was young punk at WXYZ-TV. [uhoh]

I owned a TK-60 and control console at one time...long gone now. [Frown]

Posted by Rick Hunter (Member # 1606) on 12-04-2009, 04:35 AM:

I dug this up to take a photo & said, What the heck....plugged it in, switched it on and...
Memory check, the huge 10Mb hard drive whirred & up came the menu.
Here it is runninig XTREE Gold.
This unit has not been powered up for over 20 years.
They don't make 'em like that anymore....the keyboard weighs as much as my laptop.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-04-2009, 10:19 AM:

Phil... that was a really cool camera! I worked with a guy that was at a station in Springfield, MO that had those. He said it took 1000 fc to light the news set adaquately and it got so hot in there they had to take ythe lights down beteeen everycommercial. He said they also ran extra commercials during the news...

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-04-2009, 04:15 PM:

Mark: I still have somewhere in this hell-hole I call home, a brand new RCA 5820A Image Orthicon. Too Cool!

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 12-04-2009, 04:24 PM:

Yeah Phil, that TK-42 does look cool. That would make a nice display piece. I like the TK-41 (or 40) for their Greyhound Bus profile and historic nature, but I wouldn't pass up a 42 if the opportunity presented itself.

Funny to think that it took such behemoths and racks and racks of tube gear, plus a 2-inch quad VTR to do something that can now be done with a palm-sized camcorder.

Posted by Rick Hunter (Member # 1606) on 12-04-2009, 07:45 PM:

My 4 1/2 inch IO, 25mm plumbicon & a 18mm plumbicon.

There is a VR1000 console in the garage but it is too hard to get to to photograph.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-05-2009, 01:07 AM:

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 12-05-2009, 02:39 AM:

Good point Tim, do any of the broadcast collectors have tk1s?

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 12-05-2009, 07:36 AM:

Ah! Yes! The Indian Head Test Pattern.

Our TG-2A sync generator had a cross hatch pattern output so you could superimpose that over the TP and adjust linearity and proper scanning of the image tube. That is the purpose for the cross hatched background.

Our film chain was an Iconoscope unit we were given when the Grand Rapids station went to Vidicons and that new fangled COLOR stuff.

KEN

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 12-05-2009, 09:26 AM:

Thanks for that, Tim! That test pattern practically hypnotizes me! [Eek!]

Funny story about that, John remembers when many stations still ran that test pattern (and I tell him he's an old fart! [Razz]

). Well, one of the stations was WTPA (now WHTM), but he used to think that the Indian had something to do with its call letters, especially the "Tee Pee." [Big Grin]

I've seen photos of the TK1, and I'm sure Chuck Pharis has one (or one hundred!). He also has what he believes is the original artwork for the Indian Head test pattern, rescued from a dumpster in Camden.

Okay, here's some pictures for those who like to see vintage broadcast equipment in their natural habitat. An old friend lent me his collection of stereo slides he'd taken in Lebanon PA in the 1950s. Among them was a sizable selection taken in the short-lived local tv station WLBR, which now is the CW15. He allowed me to make high quality copies of the slides which is like stepping back in time. This is the best way I can share them with you.

The Blue Ridge Boys performing live on WLBR-TV, Nov. 28, 1953:

And for those with 3D glasses (red over left eye):

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-05-2009, 11:39 AM:

quote: Hillary Charles
He also has what he believes is the original artwork for the Indian Head test pattern, rescued from a dumpster in Camden.

Two words: History Detectives!

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/about/submit.html

Serious! No joke! [Smile]

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 12-05-2009, 11:49 AM:

I'd LOVE to see that on History Detectives! That would make for a great segment.

You can see everything he's found out so far right here.

I was wrong about him finding it in Camden; it was Harrison, N.J.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-05-2009, 12:22 PM:

For the TV people: what is this test pattern?

(sorry for the poor quality; it is a still from a Youtube video that probably began life as a VHS copy)

Lots of stations used this in the '80s, but it is almost never seen now.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-05-2009, 12:37 PM:

I don't know if History Detectives would balk at the story because he's selling the patterns commercially but, assuming he can get by that hurdle, it would be a big boost to his business if that artwork was authenticated by History Detectives.

Even if he wasn't selling copies, it would still be a great value to know that this is THE Indian Head Test Pattern. Every kid growing up in the 1960's and 1970's sat up every Saturday morning, waiting for Saturday Morning Cartoons to start, watching that test pattern.

I say it is historically significant. Even more so that we've officially "made the switch" to digital broadcast television. The producers of History Detectives seem to love those "found it in a dumpster" type stories.

I really think he should submit it.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 12-05-2009, 01:32 PM:

For Scott, it's an interesting take on a resolution chart, turned into a station ID slide.

The wedges of fine lines give you an indication of both horizontal and vertical resolution. Back when I taught video classes for IATSE Local 720's Training Trust, I would display a chart like that E-E from a live camcorder, then VHS, U-matic, S-VHS, LD, and Beta SP playback sources - you could see the differences in the pointy end of the wedges. Geeky fun.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-05-2009, 06:08 PM:

Paul--thanks. So, is that test pattern supposed to help me adjust something on my home set (overscan and centering, or brightness/contrast maybe?)? Or does it help the station adjust something? Do the colors mean anything or do something special in blue-only mode?

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 12-05-2009, 06:25 PM:

TV stations used to broadcast their test patterns during the same time every day so television receivers could be properly adjusted. Because of that, deliveries and service calls would coincide with test pattern scheduling.

As you suggest, everything on the pattern is useable, including the main circle itself. We even had to put the Indian Head pattern to work so we could adjust the tube of a Philco Predicta which was initially giving the circle an egg shape. It's much better now. [Smile]

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 12-05-2009, 07:17 PM:

Not really for use during actual adjusting, but for evaluation. If your convergence and focus are good, you'll be able to discern lines further towards the pointed end of those wedges. Even small convergence and focus errors really kill resolution performance. There are other charts that would be more useful for making actual adjustments.

As far as I know, those colors are just for looks since that pic is just a station ID slide. It just happened to start out as a resolution chart, art wise. Never saw colors on an actual res chart.

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 12-05-2009, 08:01 PM:

Colors were integral in test patterns when color transmission was just beginning. Here is an example from July 1951, used to test the ill-fated CBS sequential (spinning disc) color system:

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-05-2009, 08:11 PM:

There are a number of CBS Colorwheel TVs in Ohio at the Museum and I'm pretty sure they have an operating unit with the custom convertor to playback NTSC color on CBS systems. Here ia a link to an off screen photo of what it is actually capable of. The CBS system had no color purity errors so the colors were excellent.

Early CBS Color System with off screen photo

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 12-05-2009, 08:17 PM:

I think they have a couple of operating CBS-color sets, at least one being a studio monitor. I recall seeing a photo from the ETF with a few spinning disc sets (or maybe a few B&W sets with color adapters) all displaying the same image (also from "The Wizard of Oz"). The frames I saw did look good. I wonder if there was any fringing on quick moving subjects.

There's a book called TUBE, about the invention of telelvsion that has a chapter on the color wars between CBS and RCA/NBC. It's a fascinating story. Strange to think the FCC had initially approved the CBS version.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-07-2009, 02:05 AM:

Super-cool 3D pic, Hillary! [beer]

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 12-07-2009, 05:41 AM:

Thanks Phil! I wasn't sure it would work for you, y'know with that eye patch... [Wink]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-07-2009, 11:35 AM:

So, Stephen Furley, Phil Hill, and I are the only ones here who collect telephones?

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 12-07-2009, 02:33 PM:

Scott, does a black bakelite table model in the living room and a pay phone in the kitchen count as a collection? Small compared to what you guys have.

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 12-12-2009, 12:06 AM:

I could see myself collecting old televisions, but when i find myself dreaming out loud, my wife opens the front bedroom door and points to the projector and films. Then she goes to the living room and points to the Edison C250 and the Zenith 8s463 radio. Then she points to my camera collection all over the mantel. Then she opens the garage and points to the DeLorean. The she points to me and says which one goes away to make room for the TV's? I love her. She has very good points. She tells me she loves all of those things as much as I do and I can tell she does, thankfully. I think TV collecting is a single person's hobby. I would sure like to get my hands on a CT-100. With the possibility of successfully rebuilding the 15gp22 tubes on the horizon this may be closer to a reality.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-12-2009, 12:24 AM:

Since a lot of people are posting non-electronic equipment, I will post my oldest non-electronic thingy:

This is my grandfather's Keystone Electric Eye K-7 8mm motion picture film camera! It doesn't use ANY electrical power and therefore is even MORE GREEN than a hybrid automobile! It seems impossible, but it is true. It uses 8mm film which is nearly Super VHS quality. And best of all, it is a goddamn Keystone, motherfuckers!

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 12-12-2009, 07:36 AM:

MUST respect the Keystone! [thumbsup]

Sean, we share the dream of a CT-100. This year, I came closer than I ever thought possible; in town, there's a thrift shop that used to be one of those old-time department stores with only a few specialized departments like washer/dryers, bicycles and televisions. In the back room was a bunch of old televisions and some related equipment.

One of them was a CT-100. Never sold! Still had a dealer display ribbon on it! By the time I heard this story (all which happened within this last year) the CT-100 was put on display in the local historical center. I'm glad that at least those who owned the building understood its importance, even if we couldn't get it for ourselves. They also know enough not just turn it on. At this point, it may remain just a display piece.

I can't believe I was SO CLOSE to one! John didn't think one of those would ever be in this area. Color programming in this area would have been spotty (and not at all worth the $1000 in 1954 dollars to buy the set).

Looks like we'll have to be content with the CTC-5 which came from a penthouse in NYC's Upper West Side. Not quite the historic set as the CT-100, but we have the same model that sits in Graceland! [Cool]

And we're also out of room for anything else as well! [Big Grin]

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 12-13-2009, 02:46 AM:

Joe, those cameras actually produced very good images. The optics were very good for a budget camera. If you told me you had an 8mm projector I'd encourage you to put a roll through the camera for some fun. I have some fairly fresh 8mm ektachrome rolls in the freezer that I'd be happy to donate one to you to try out the camera. You'd just have to cover processing. For those not in the know, there's an individual here in California that special orders ektachrome and black and white reversal films from Kodak in large quantities and has them perforated for 8mm. He had a large quantity of cans and plastic spools made up in (I think) the Czech republic years ago and spools the film down for those who want to keep shooting regular 8mm.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-13-2009, 02:50 AM:

Kodachrome 40 and 25 were THE best filmstocks for the 8mm gauge. The images on them were of IB tech quality, assuming they were processed properly and not through K-Mart. Sadly Dwayne's is the only place still processing Kodachrome 8mm and they are about to shut down.

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 12-13-2009, 01:20 PM:

Dwayne's as a business isn't going to shut down, but sometime in December 2010 will be the last processing run as Kodak will be discontinuing the K14 chemistry at that time. For those not in the know, Kodak discontinued Kodachrome 64 35mm slide film earlier this year which was the last Kodachrome product on the market. I have a bunch of frozen rolls of 16mm Kodachrome in the freezer that needs to be shot. I hope 2010 is bright and sunny.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-13-2009, 02:04 PM:

I shot tons of EKTACHROME 35mm slides and 7242 and 7256 16mm reversal stock...they have ALL faded!

The below pic is a Kodachrome slide from the 60's. Just scanned, still has fantastic color.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-13-2009, 05:00 PM:

Nice! That you in the boat?

So, have 8mm and Super 8 been discontinued?

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-13-2009, 05:21 PM:

quote: Tim Reed
That you in the boat?

YUP!

That's a pic my dad took (with his Argus C3...I still have it!) from our house on Wolverine Lake MI...where I grew up.

I was just a 15 y/o young punk...now I'm an old fart. [Razz]

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 12-13-2009, 05:25 PM:

No Tim Super 8 is alive, you can purchase films cut down from 35mm stock, pretty much all negative stocks are avaliable, plus a variety of reversal and black and white, fuji or kodak.
pro8mm
I believe kodak also offers in the USA several vision stocks including vision 200/500 neg.
kodak super 8 products

High def telecines are also avaliable [Smile]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-13-2009, 06:45 PM:

I knew you would all be impressed by my camera, but get ready for your jaws to hit the floor when you see my editing station:

That's right, it's the Kalart Editor Viewer Eight! You can have your shitty Final Cut Pros and Avids, this kicks their asses any day! It can do anything the other editors can do and more! Here you see I am editing a blockbuster feature. You simply cannot go wrong when you go to the store and demand "Gimme a fucking Kalart, asshole!"

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-13-2009, 06:51 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Here you see I am editing a blockbuster feature.

JFC! It's a film of our Grand-Poopie-BAH! [beer]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-13-2009, 07:50 PM:

quote:
(with his Argus C3...I still have it!)

..and my father still has his Argus C3 he got back in 1954..

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 12-13-2009, 07:53 PM:

Custom perforated and respooled black & white reversal and ektachrome 100D reversal is available for regular 8mm. The aforementioned Dwaynes photo http://www.dwaynesphoto.com/ sells 8mm Ektachrome 100d. Action Camera http://www.actioncamerasf.com in San Francisco carries two different speed black and white and also Ektachrome 100D in 8mm.
Labs such as Yale film and video http://www.yalefilmandvideo.com can process b/w and color reversal 8mm.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-13-2009, 08:22 PM:

Joe--why do you have 8mm film of Brad? Also, why do you have a roll of splicing tape on the Kalart, which has a cement splicer built into it?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-13-2009, 08:24 PM:

Scott, why use cement when ZEBRA TAPE is the true professional's choice? Also, Projection Training 3 was shot on my grandpappy's Keystone.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-13-2009, 08:31 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Projection Training 3 was shot on my grandpappy's Keystone.

With a 3-lens turret and an "electric eye" for automatic film exposure? [Wink]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-13-2009, 08:37 PM:

Fun things you find in a thrift store for 5 bucks:

A Bell&Howell 134 camera (c) 1939 in excellent condition. SSN#B11954
Camera having multiple shutter speed settings with double shutter release mechanism for either movie or single frame exposure for stop action photography. Springwound setup still works.

Three rolls of sealed 25 and 40 double 8 film.

Westion Master V light meter

Camera was still loaded with dbl 8 film when I bought it.

-Monte

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 12-13-2009, 09:19 PM:

Hey Monte. If you haven't already used or threw away the rolls of film, I'd gladly give you some bucks for them if you aren't going to use them. PM me.

(I have a camera identical to that one in my collection)

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-13-2009, 11:45 PM:

quote: Phil Hill
With a 3-lens turret and an "electric eye" for automatic film exposure?

It has a single lens, you buffoon! But yeah, that Electric Eye does wonders. It adjusts nearly as fast as the human eye! Fuck Panavision.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-14-2009, 10:28 PM:

Okay, this is probably my oldest. My prized J-37 military code key. It's not like it's rare or anything, but I'm a code freak and I love it!

(Yes, it's a mechanical device, but it's useless without being plugged into the CW transmitter it is a functional part of.)