This is topic PayPal/eBay policies are getting ridiculous... in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-11-2010, 05:46 PM:
 
Any one else here noticed how bad eBay and now Paypal's policies have become? (Paypal was bought out by eBay.)

I got an email from Paypal today which has me astounded to say the least.

In summary, what it says is that from now on, Paypal is going to place a HOLD on ALL payments made to my account, until THEY verify that an item I sold was received AND satisfactory to the buyer. This hold can be up to 21 days!! They will base delivery on tracking info (but ONLY if you do shipping thru Paypal's shipping links, but even then the hold lasts 3 days AFTER delivery confirmation.) Otherwise they can hold the money (on eBay transactions) UNTIL the buyer gives POSITIVE feedback!!

After 9 years of 100% positive transactions thru eBay (and several thru here) I find this extremely insulting and I am looking into seeing if it violates any fair commerce laws. Especially since eBay now no longer allows any other wire transfer methods. (AND WILL SOON MAKE PAYPAL THE ONLY PAYMENT METHOD A BUYER CAN USE!! Which means no more check/money order payments allowed either.)

I see an anti-trust/monopoly lawsuit in eBay/Paypal's future.

As for eBay, if you review their latest user Agreement, you will discover that as a SELLER (who PAYS FEES to sell items which is subtracted from your sale price of an item) you have NO RIGHTS or course of action in the event of negative feedback given without due cause. ANY buyer can leave a negative feedback BEFORE an item is even received and as a seller all you can do in response is leave a 50-character comment in reply. Formerly, there was at least a written note that buyers were to try to resolve issues prior to leaving negative feedback. Oh, and as a seller your option to leave NEGATIVE feedback to a BUYER has been removed.

Overall I think I am done with eBay and may well be done with Paypal as well, if they don't immediately recind that policy on my account at least.

Anyone else here who uses Paypal should check their account and see if they are also facing that policy. And if anyone else was sent that policy update I'd like to hear from you either here or by PM.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-11-2010, 06:11 PM:
 
I'd be more inclined to be amenable to that policy if they paid interest during the month that my money was not available to me for withdrawal.

I didn't say I'd completely agree with it. I just said I'd be more inclined to agree. Depends on the rate.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-11-2010, 06:20 PM:
 
Randy, to a point I agree with you, but Paypal's rate is BELOW what a regular savings account is.. and the key point is that THEY decide when/if the buyer is happy.

There is a LOT of sellers on eBay right now (including a lot of "Power Sellers") that are getting ready to jump ship. The fees have gone up, sellers have NO WAY of leaving negative feedback to buyers who either don't pay or otherwise lie and leave negatives, and eBay is soon going to make Paypal (which THEY own) THE ONLY WAY you can pay for items.

Overall it is no longer good business practice to do anything with either company anymore. There is too much risk involved.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-11-2010, 07:22 PM:
 
I doubt they're trembling in their boots too much. Whenever "a lot" of customers of a company like that jump ship, the true number is probably somewhere below 1% or so.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-11-2010, 08:08 PM:
 
There might not be a great exodus of people away from eBay but I know there is a steady stream of them. Over time, if they can't attract more people than they lose, their business will shrink. I know for fact that there are groups of people who make arts and crafts that do not use eBay.

My wife happens to collect Teddy Bears. She has quite a few of them. When I want to get her a hand made, one-of-a-kind, artist Teddy Bear I often get them from people who sell them on-line. Of the people I know who make Bears for adoption, quite a few of them will NOT have anything to do with eBay.

There is a site called "Etsy" (www.etsy.com) where you can get hand made arts and crafts. There is another site called "Bear Pile" (www.bearpile.com) where you can find over 100 Teddy Bear artists who sell through that site. Many of them will not sell on eBay.

When you are hunting for collectibles like Bears, you have to know where to go to find them.

And, no, I don't mean the interest rate you get from PayPal for keeping your money there. I mean interest over and above that due to the fact that it is your money but you are not in control of it until a later time. They should pay you for that.

I do not keep a balance at PayPal.
I have a special ATM card, separate from my regular account which I use only for on-line purchases, etc. I keep a $100 balance in that account just for good measure. If somebody breaks in to that account, the most they'll ever get is $100. That is the card I keep on file for PayPal.
Also, I only keep a $20 balance in PayPal at any given time.

If I need to buy something from PayPal, I transfer money into the account using my special ATM card. If I take a payment through PayPal, I will either spend the balance down or I will transfer the money out.

PayPal is certainly convenient but, more and more, they are becoming a necessary evil. I want to maintain as little exposure to them as possible. My main problem with them is that they are, in essence, what amounts to an unregulated bank. Basically, they could walk away with everybody's money tomorrow and there isn't a thing the government can do about it.

Think about it. PayPal is almost as bad as Bernie Madoff.
 

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Posted by Marc Hansen (Member # 705) on 05-11-2010, 09:28 PM:
 
For a year or so I have been using Ebid.net. VERY seller friendly and growing fairly fast.
 

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Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 05-12-2010, 02:05 AM:
 
I have been an eBay member since 1997, but I haven't used eBay to sell stuff for several years. A friend of mine has a used computer business and has told me how horrible it has gotten to sell his stuff on eBay over the past 2-3 years.

He recently had a transaction where a buyer never sent payment, so he filed a non-paying bidder complaint. eBay found in his favor, credited his seller fees back and issued a strike against the buyer. The buyer then left him negative feedback which ruined his perfect score! He then called eBay to have the feedback removed, but was told they couldn't do that even though the feedback was obviously retaliation for the non paying bidder strike.

I think a lot of the policy changes eBay has recently made stems from litigation. Most of which is likely coming from dissatisfied buyers, hence the over reaction by eBay in skewing its policies in favor of the buyer which is a shame.
 

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Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 05-12-2010, 10:49 AM:
 
I too am getting sick of the ebay regulations. They are definitely skewing their regulations in favor of the buyer and sellers have no recourse or protection. The fees alone are f-ing ridiculous! I still buy stuff on there but sell a lot less than I ever did. I also have started free offsite hosting of my photos so I don't have to pay ebay for posting those too.

I listed a lawn tractor on there recently but ended the auction early when the guy came to look at it and bought it with cash. He tried signing up for Paypal and got fed up with it and just paid cash. It was nice too to finally screw ebay over by ending the auction early and not paying their stupid final value fees.
 

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Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 05-12-2010, 01:52 PM:
 
There seems to be a very big difference between ebay and Gumtree (The UK version of ebay classified Ads) which does not charge, nor require registration except for top placement.

When used for large items such as furniture or property rental the local limitation does not cause problems.
 

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Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 05-12-2010, 02:37 PM:
 
We have craigslist.com over here that is much like what you are describing but it's mostly local buyers. This drastically narrows the market when you are selling film equipment or related things.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-12-2010, 02:50 PM:
 
Marc, thank you for the link. I have registered an account there and will start doing all my online auction biz there.

eBay and Paypal can go themselves.

I am tired of the endless fees and from them and having no protection as a seller.

Joshua, check out ebid..I think you'll find it a lot better value overall. Even signing up for the "Seller Plus" is FAR cheaper that the fees on eBay!! (Last month selling THREE items I paid out $70.00 in eBay fees, NOT including the fees Paypal charged for the payments sent to me. The LIFETIME Seller Plus is only $79.) Plus there are NO reserve or most other fees, and the Final Value fee is only 3% as opposed to 7-8%.

Jeremy, eBay's problem is that they HAVEN'T been hit with litigation which is only a matter of time. Their former CEO should hear of what has happened to the company she had run so well.
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 05-12-2010, 05:38 PM:
 
Ebay only letting you use PayPal (which they own), that sure sounds like an anti-trust problem to me. Maybe it's time to report this to the Justice Department. It sounds a lot like Microsoft requiring you to use Outlook Express. This turned into a world wide mess, and Microsoft LOST everywhere.
 

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Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 05-12-2010, 06:05 PM:
 
eBay will allow you to use other credit card processors besides PayPal. The problem is you must use a credit card processor, and for a small amount of transactions, most are more expensive than PayPal.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-12-2010, 09:13 PM:
 
Bruce, you are right, maybe it is time to have the JD take a look at their operations....

Mitchell, they currently allow other card processes, the PayPal only is coming soon. (AFAIK no date has been announced formally yet.) In any event they are heading into a monopoly situation which is not a good business model at least and criminal at worst.

Either way they are schmucks and deserve to fail for screwing over the people who generate the income, the sellers!!
 

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Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 05-12-2010, 10:19 PM:
 
I do seem to remember reading several articles of pending litigation against eBay for their feedback system. I think most of it involved European users though.
 

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Posted by Allison Parsons (Member # 2728) on 05-13-2010, 12:16 AM:
 
Tony,
Couldn't agree with you more about your rant. I could go on a rant myself, but you said most of the stuff I would say anyway, so I'll keep quite and spare you my story.

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr

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Paypal is going to place a HOLD on ALL payments made to my account, until THEY verify that an item I sold was received AND satisfactory to the buyer

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quote:

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EBay Persuades Judge to End Auction ‘Monopoly’ Suit by Sellers
March 06, 2010, 12:03 AM EST
By Andrew M. Harris

March 6 (Bloomberg) -- EBay Inc., operator of the most visited U.S. e-commerce site, no longer faces a lawsuit by three sellers claiming it monopolizes the online auctions market and the means to pay for goods bought there.

U.S. District Judge Jeremy Fogel in San Jose, California, ruled the sellers failed to show that they -- or anyone else -- had been injured by EBay’s alleged behavior.

“Plaintiffs have not drawn the court’s attention to any actual proof of antitrust injury caused by EBay,” Fogel said in his March 4 decision throwing out the case.

EBay was accused in the suit of anticompetitive behavior, including the acquisition of the PayPal peer-to-peer payment service in 2002. Paypal, bought by San Jose-based EBay for $1.18 billion, processed more than 40 percent of the $52 billion in merchandise sold on EBay in 2006, the year before Michael Malone of Texas first filed the lawsuit.

Malone was forced to pay “artificially inflated and supracompetitive fees to EBay,” according to a consolidated complaint filed in May 2007.

The sellers sought class-action, or group status, and a finding that EBay violated antitrust laws and illegally restrained trade, plus an award for unspecified money damages.

“We are gratified that the court rejected plaintiffs’ claim as baseless,” EBay Deputy General Counsel Mary Huser said yesterday in an e-mailed statement. “With this meritless suit behind us, we can continue to focus on our core business of providing platforms that bring buyers and sellers together to transact online.”

Michael McShane, lead attorney for the sellers, didn’t immediately return a phone message seeking comment yesterday.

No Line Crossed

“Plaintiffs challenge virtually everything that EBay has ever done,” the company said in court papers asking Fogel to throw out the lawsuit. “Every one of the acts identified by plaintiffs crosses no antitrust line.”

The case is In Re EBay Seller Antitrust Litigation, 07-cv-01882, U.S. District Court, Northern District of California (San Jose).

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quote: Tony Bandiera Jr

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I got an email from Paypal today which has me astounded to say the least.

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quote: Tony Bandiera Jr

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Allison, you would be getting that notice as a message when you log in to Paypal, it originates from them.

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quote: From Paypal's site

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PayPal Payment Holds

We're committed to providing you and your customers with a fast and secure payment service while keeping our prices competitive. To keep ourselves on track, we've established a Funds Availability Policy.

We might be throwing some new words at you here, but we promise to explain them in full detail. As part of our Funds Availability Policy, "reserves" may apply to certain accounts. A reserve is a percentage of your payments that'll be released at a later date. A related term is "payment hold." A payment hold is a type of reserve in which 100% of the funds received are held for a specified amount of time.

Payment hold - a longer definition

A payment hold is an amount of money that belongs to you, set aside by PayPal, while we make sure that your customers are satisfied. The payments received are held temporarily as a pending balance in your account, and released after a given timeframe. The funds may be released early if PayPal determines that the transaction has been fulfilled and your customers are satisfied.

Please note: Although not available for use, the funds are yours and will be reflected in your pending balance and eligible for money market dividends* for eligible accounts.
Why does PayPal hold payments?

Payment holds ensure that sellers have sufficient funds in their account if, for example, a customer files a dispute. This allows PayPal to provide a fast and secure payment service to you and your customers while keeping our prices competitive.

We know this is a change in the way we do business with you and we hope you understand that, if your payment is held, you haven't done anything wrong. In deciding whether to hold payments, we review many factors including transaction activity, business type, and customer disputes.
When do payment holds apply?

Payment holds may be applied to some or all transactions in your account. Here are some common reasons for holding payments:

* You have limited history or selling activity with eBay and PayPal
* You have an eBay feedback score of less than 100 or received fewer than 20 Detailed Seller Ratings in the last 12 months, and do not have a record of good performance
* If you have low Detailed Seller Ratings or other indication of below standard performance on eBay
* You have a high rate of customer disputes, claims or chargebacks
* You're selling in a high risk category or industry such as, but not limited to, tickets, travel, gift certificates, computers, consumer electronics, or cell phones
* Your payment activity is inconsistent. For example, you have a spike in selling activity or you started selling in a new category without an established history in that category
* The account information you have provided is incomplete or inaccurate

If your payments are held, PayPal will provide you with notice specifying the terms. The terms may require that the amounts received into your account are held for a certain period of time. PayPal will re-evaluate your account periodically and contact you when we stop applying payment holds.

If your payments are held, the funds will be shown as "pending" in your PayPal balance.

When does PayPal release the payment?

Payments will be held in a pending balance for a certain time period. For example, if you receive a $100 payment (after fees), the $100 will be held in a pending balance for the specified amount of time. After the hold is released, the money will be available for withdrawal.

The money may be released sooner if:

1. We can confirm that the item was delivered**
2. Your buyer leaves positive feedback. (Applies only to eBay items.)

To get access to this money more quickly, please process this order right away and communicate with your customers early and often.

What can I do to avoid payment holds?

Here are some things you can do:

* Improve your DSR feedback rating
* Avoid buyer disputes, claims, and chargebacks.
* If you have a buyer dispute, resolve it quickly.
* Process your orders right away and ship quickly using a service that provides tracking and delivery confirmation
* Communicate early and often with your buyers
* Make sure you confirm your address and phone numbers and keep them up to date
* Verify your account and keep your financials up to date

I'm a new seller. Will payments I receive be held?

Not necessarily. If you're a new seller with PayPal, we may hold your payments until you establish a record of good selling performance.

I'm a tenured PayPal seller. Will payments I receive be held?

Not necessarily. If you don't have a record of good performance or have limited selling activity or other indication of potential performance problems, your payments may be held.

Can held funds be used to pay for shipping?

If you print labels and pay for shipping through PayPal or eBay, the cost of shipping will be released from your pending balance shortly after purchase. Printing labels on eBay and PayPal is free. You're charged only the cost of shipping.

* For US customers, if you are enrolled in the PayPal Money Market Fund, you will earn interest on your held funds.

**We can confirm delivery if you ship the item with UPS, USPS or FedEx and either use PayPal or eBay shipping labels or upload tracking information from the transaction details page. This applies to US domestic shipments only. Once the tracking number reflects the shipment is delivered, PayPal will review and may release the Hold after 3 days elapses. This provides enough time for the buyer to review the shipment and file a dispute if necessary.

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Bold added by me.

The tone of this policy is slightly softer than the tone of the email, which is kinda understandable since the email was a bit shorter.

It seems to me this is a somewhat punitive action because I don't have great sales volume and don't have established DSR's yet. Since joining eBay though I have made close to 80 sales and ALL have been 100% positive feedback with no complaints or issues.

The first bold point is the one that pisses me off the most, as my Paypal is linked to my bank account already to cover any shortfalls in my Paypal account, so that's a very weak excuse IMHO.

I knew when Paypal was bought by eBay that it was only a matter of time before the hit the fan.
 

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Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 05-13-2010, 09:44 PM:
 
Yes, my feedback is 100%. I understand why they are doing it. It may be a bit strong though. Personally, I'm fine with it, but I can see if you don't sell much but have 100% feedback, why you would be pissed.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-13-2010, 09:59 PM:
 
Richard, if I have 100% feedback why should my sales volume matter? As long as I have had no claims against me (and I don't) why should I be subject to the hold? And what about the NINE YEARS of good track record? That should weigh in a lot more than sales volume.

I'm pretty sure if you did a sale and had your money held despite your 100% you'd be pissed too.

Again, since they have access to my bank account anyways why should they hold my access to the funds?

There are other online services to get paid by and I can also set up my bank account to accept credit cards if need be.
 

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Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 05-13-2010, 10:21 PM:
 
Tony, I thought I had read that you didn't have many sales at all on Ebay. I must have read it wrong. I don't understand it at all. It seems that they are picking on certain people. I also have been on ebay for about 10 years and have 100% feedback. My feedback number is only around 250 though. I would have thought that I would be included in the new policy also.
 

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Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 05-14-2010, 02:17 AM:
 
OK. After some digging I found the policy. Its under the "Security Center" link. Security Center>Safer Selling>Tips to Sell Securely>Payment Holds

Maybe they're sending notice to those that are actively selling( but with low sales volume) on eBay. I can't find any indication as to when the policy went in to effect, but maybe its been on the books for a while and they're just sending out reminder notices. I am in no way defending what they are doing. It will certainly give me pause if and when I decide to sell something via eBay again.
 

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Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 05-14-2010, 10:32 AM:
 
Putting holds on money is common practice. Many banks place holds on your account whenever you use their debit card. Mine and two other locals hold $75, unless I tell the cashier (assuming they have the option) to run it as credit.

As far as I can see, other payment options on Ebay are still available, including credit cards and "receive payment upon pickup" which translates to "I'll ship it when your check clears." It doesn't seem like the hardest thing to avoid if it's truly a burden. It would seem it's origin comes from all the creditors that offer buyer protection. Maybe that's even a federal law, I don't know. I do know that my credit cards have protection for purchases I make that I either don't get or are faulty or whatever. Maybe this is Paypal's version of that?

Ebay is huge. You would reduce your exposure by leaving Ebay. If that's a risk you're willing to accept, then go for it. As Randy mentioned, the online private trade world is beginning to mimic real-world retailers. Specialty sites are becoming the preference, as Ebay has grown so large that what used to be a simple search now returns thousand of items that have nothing to do with what you want.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-14-2010, 01:12 PM:
 
Richard, no you read it right. I am not a high-volume seller which is probably why this was done.

My gripe is the fact that they're saying they could/would apply holds to ALL incoming funds, even those not done as an eBay transaction, which I said I could live with if it WAS ONLY eBAy transactions.

Chad, your bank analogy doesn't apply in this case. Banks apply holds to ensure that the transfer of funds (or check clearing) actually takes place. (I worked for a bank for two years long ago.) Paypal already does hold funds in that case, for example if you Paypal'd me by "e-check" I would get an email telling me a payment was PENDING but my balance would not show it until it was cleared. A very high percentage of Paypal transactions are instant, as they can verify funds availability easily.

What Paypal is doing is getting the money and using it (yes they use your money while it is in the account) while they decide whether or not the buyer is happy, and THAT'S what I have issue with.

Like I said before, with the combined fees involved with those two companies it is not worth it anymore.
 

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