Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: More destructive to the music world

This is topic More destructive to the music world - Yoko or Courtney? in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 08-22-2010, 10:45 PM:

In the wake of the recent news that Courtney Love lost custody of her daughter Frances Bean, a friend and I were discussing Nirvana, along with some of the other most influential bands ever, so naturally the Beatles came up. Normally, they say behind every great man is a great woman, but in both these cases, a woman directly influenced the demise of the band. So who was more destructive to the music world, music history, it's potential, and generally had a bigger impact on music? Courtney Love or Yoko Ono?

Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 08-22-2010, 10:59 PM:

My Vote is Yoko Ono.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-22-2010, 11:15 PM:

? Who cares ?

Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 08-22-2010, 11:19 PM:

Neither killed the creative output of their spouses. Lennon made some damn good music as a solo artist. Cobain's music did not suffer from marrying Love. I don't believe the rumors that Love had Cobain killed.

It's a different matter that I dislike both women. Love did at least make a few decent songs.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-23-2010, 04:11 AM:

Put them both in a room & lock the door -- wait...throw in Britney Spears, just to be sure the torture is unrelenting.

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 08-23-2010, 06:04 PM:

Neither one will be remembered for changing music history. Although Cobain's death came at the height of his (and Nirvana's) creative talent, the Beetles were about spent and were probably going to break up soon anyway. Lennon and McCartney were far more talented than Ringo and Harrison. Moreover, the band went through too radical a transition in their looks and style in too short a period of time (think Ed Sullivan vs. Indian spirituality).

I know many Beetles fans who love the early stuff and refuse to listen to the later music and vice versa. Its a lot like being a U2 fan after the Joshua Tree album.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-23-2010, 08:00 PM:

quote: Aaron Mehocic
the Beetles were about spent and were probably going to break up soon anyway.

The band had broken up 10 years earlier.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-23-2010, 08:09 PM:

I will always wonder if Lennon and McCartney might have worked together again after the Beatles' breakup if it hadn't been for the women in both their lives. If they had, who knows how history might have been altered? Lennon might not have moved into the Dakota and therefore might not have been killed.

Cobain was on a fast track to hell with or without Courtney Love.

So I vote for Yoko.

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 08-23-2010, 08:56 PM:

quote: Chris Slycord
The band had broken up 10 years earlier.

I might be a little off on my history here, but didn't Lennon meet Yoko Ono about 1965 or '66? The Beetles were together at least through 1969.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-23-2010, 09:40 PM:

Sorry, I was thinking the "destruction" was referring to them both leading to untimely deaths. I fail.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 08-23-2010, 10:25 PM:

Blaming the breakup on either woman implies that the guys were too weak willed to act on their own. Not likely.

That said, Yoko Ono handled the death of John Lennon with a hell of lot more class than Courtney did Corbain's.

Please don't make me listen to Yoko singing [evil]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-23-2010, 10:38 PM:

He fails too...not once but twice he spelled Beatles, Beetles (thus far that I have read). One is an insect, one was a "pop" band. Once can be a typo...the second is clear incompetence. Even when the band used the "ee" it was with the world "Silver" in front of it.

I, for one, like most of their stuff from very early to very late...Revolution 9 being a bit of an exception.

Considering how strong both Lennon and McCartney's music was in the '70s and even leading into the '80s...one couldn't say they were done yet and I have little doubt that their songs would been MANY fold better had they continued to collaborate. One is going to think differently when they are just writing with just themselves in mind performing the song versus a group of known players. Furthermore, how a song starts in a band differs greatly once the rest of the band puts their influence on it. Ever listen to Pete Townsend's version of his songs and compare it to The Who's version...he may have wrote virtually all of them...but his version of them are quite different than The Who's.

Speculation on what The Beatles might have been had this or that had not occurred, is, unfortunately, just speculation. We will never know. I know I still remember where I was when I heard that John Lennon was shot. It was a VERY sad day for many of us.

I don't think Yoko caused The Beatles to break up...The Beatles did that all on their own. Yoko may have been a catalyst though.

Steve

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-23-2010, 11:39 PM:

I was perhaps a bit too young to fully appreciate the music of John Lennon and The Beatles at the time when Lennon was shot. Nevertheless, I do remember where I was when it happened (at home in Syracuse, NY) and how it shook the country. The act of killing Lennon was, IMHO, one of the most stupid, senseless, pointless acts that have occurred in this country in the last 50 years. It should never have happened. Likewise, Lennon's killer should never ever be set free. My understanding is he is up for parole in September. I hope that is denied.

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 08-24-2010, 06:51 AM:

Wow, small world. Bobby. I was working in the booth at the Cinema North in Mattydale when it happened, running the DeLaurentiis Flash Gordon and watching Monday Night Football on a little Sony when it the announcement came. After I locked up I went to visit a friend working at 95X, we shared a bong listening to the Lennon tracks he was playing. I remember it like it was yesterday.

The Beatles would have broken up anyway. If you are familiar at all with their history, around 1969 they were having a big falling out around who would manage the bad and run Apple Corps, John wanted Alan Klein, Paul wanted his father-in-law Lee Eastman. Plus, Paul had been going around behind the other's backs to buy extra shares in Northern Songs, the publishing company that administrated the rights to their music, something that John never forgave him for because it gave him extra financial payoff in the songs they had written together. I'm sure that Yoko wasn't a positive influence (if you remember the long-unseen movie Let It Be, you can see the strain she is putting on everyone else), but the big issues were always money and business, and the fact that they were all sick to death with each other.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-24-2010, 10:23 AM:

Small world indeed. I saw Flash Gordon in a theater in Syracuse, but this one was more toward the east side of town. Don't remember the name of the place. My mother dropped me, my brother and a couple of our friends off at the theater and went to do some shopping at a mall in East Syracuse. We lived in Liverpool and probably would have seen the movie at Cinema North if not for Mom's shopping itinerary.

Did you play the original Clash of the Titans there? I think I may have watched it at Cinema North. BTW, I liked listening to 95X. It was a decent rock station. I remember an animated TV commercial for it featuring some Godzilla-sized bionic guitar player.

While growing up I was more accustomed to the solo music from Paul McCartney & Wings as well as John Lennon than the Beatles music I grew to appreciate later.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-24-2010, 11:51 AM:

Mark - I'm sure you were right, they were headed for a breakup anyway. I just think Yoko had more to do with the direction John Lennon's life took than Courtney Love had to do with Kurt Cobain's eventual path.

I agree with the idea that money was probably at the very root of all the troubles the Beatles had.

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 08-24-2010, 01:57 PM:

Actually, Bobby, after I posted this morning (but too late to edit it in) I realize that I must have been working at The Cinema East on Erie Blvd. in Dewitt that night, where I was also the relief operator, and which was right down the road from Shoppingtown Mall. I remember CinemaNational making a big promotional thing about having the movie playing in stereo, and the East was only one of two screens in town that was capable of it at the time, the other being the 70mm equipped Shoppingtown Screen #1

Possibly I ran Clash Of The Titans, I don’t recall. As one of the one of the union relief guys, I would sometimes get into three or four different booths a week. It blurs. I remember taking my then girlfriend on a date to see it in sub-run, though, at the Eastwood Palace on James Street.

I went through Liverpool just last month on my way to Toronto, had me a Heid’s double frank and root beer, which was my favorite cheap meal back in the day. I went by the Cinema North, too, but was heartbroken by the shape it was in.

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 08-24-2010, 08:09 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Once can be a typo...the second is clear incompetence.

A momentary lapse in what are usually well written posts. Thank you for the clarification. Official spelling noted.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-24-2010, 09:53 PM:

I would strongly disagree that money was the root of The Beatles troubles...they were merely a symptom of other issues. Any real study of the band would discover that they were quite tired of being "Beatles."

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-24-2010, 10:28 PM:

quote: Mark Ogden
I was working in the booth at the Cinema North in Mattydale when it happened, running the DeLaurentiis Flash Gordon and watching Monday Night Football on a little Sony when it the announcement came.

Actually, it was the Shop City Mall Cinema that was playing Flash Gordon on the day Lennon was murdered.

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 08-24-2010, 10:47 PM:

Oh? What was at the East and the North? Reason I ask was I was that in one of them, and I could have sworn I was playing Flash, and I never worked at the Shop City, which was a manager/operator set-up. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-24-2010, 10:49 PM:

Cinema East: Schizoid
Cinema North: The Boogeyman/The Awakening

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 08-25-2010, 05:59 AM:

Well. I'm going to guess and say Schizoid, then. As I said above, it blurs. Amazing though, Michael, the stuff that you come up with, both here and on Cinema Treasures, the theatre play dates and such. You have this on microfilm, or? I'm not busting chops here, I'm really curious where you get such comprehensive info and for so many areas.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-26-2010, 12:20 PM:

Yes, Mark, typically I get my info by looking up the original newspaper advertisements on microfilm (or in some cases a digitized collection available online). For things like verifying when and where a movie played I can't think of a better resource.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 08-26-2010, 04:31 PM:

My own vote is that Courtney was worse. For me, it comes down to timing. Like Aaron said, Nirvana was still in phase 1. They had so much potential. The Beatles were enjoyed for a longer time, and it was somehow fitting that they never made it out of the 60’s. But I think they still had plenty of potential left as well.

quote: Pravin Ratnam
Love did at least make a few decent songs.

Dave Grohl heavily implied on more than one occasion that Kurt wrote a lot of Hole’s “Live Through This” album, which was their giant breakthrough. Doll Parts is a fantastic song, but it just sounds way to much like something Cobain would write. So she did curb his artistic ability as far as Nirvana was concerned, if he was focusing on helping her. I don’t think Love put the gun to his head, but I do think she encouraged and enabled his drug use which caused him to spiral deeper into depression. She certainly didn’t try to help him out of it.

quote: Martin McCaffery
Blaming the breakup on either woman implies that the guys were too weak willed to act on their own. Not likely.

I think that is exactly the case. You’ve never known a guy that lets a woman boss him around? Or at the very least, push him in a certain direction? Just because a guy is a famous artistic talent doesn’t mean they can’t allow a woman to pull their strings.

I agree with Steve on all points. You can’t assume the Beatles were done anyway. I believe Yoko was at the very least a catalyst, as Courtney was at the very least a catalyst to Cobain’s death. I don’t think money was the central issue for the Beatles. Guys get tired of each other after time, but they seem to get tired a lot faster and with more anger when a woman gets too involved. Spinal Tap comes to mind.

quote: Mike Blakesley
Cobain was on a fast track to hell with or without Courtney Love.

You don’t know that. Plenty of famous people have kicked drugs or alcohol before, or simply survived when medical reason says they shouldn’t (Ozzy) and his level of use before she entered the picture is purely hearsay. What is known is that his heroin use increased dramatically after they got together. The other two members of Nirvana have had nice careers since and heavily resent Love. She is all about money, fighting for years for the rights to songs that she had nothing to do with. I am glad to see Grohl come into his own with Foo Fighters, but would rather he have done that with Nirvana. I don’t know why Novoselic chose politics.

I was too young to know or care who John Lennon was when he died, but I can understand the sadness. It marked the end of the possibility the band would get back together. Lennon did make some great solo music, but it wasn’t in the same league as what The Beatles did as a group. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, they say. Don’t underestimate George and Ringo’s contributions. They may not have been the most talented guys in the band, but they played a very important role.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-26-2010, 06:28 PM:

quote: Chad Souder
You don’t know that.

I said he was on a fast track to hell, and he was. That doesn't mean he couldn't have gotten off that track if he'd wanted to, instead of taking the foolish way out.

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 08-26-2010, 07:04 PM:

Look, there was no one cause to the Beatle’s break-up, and it certainly wasn’t just Yoko alone. In fact, just about a year ago, she told journalist Mikal Gilmore that it was clear to her that there were tensions within the band before she and Lennon ever met. Bear in mind that the Beatles actually had a brief, unofficial break-up in 1966 when they got fed-up with the touring schedule they were carrying, and Lennon later claimed that during that time he first got the idea of going solo.

No one is discounting George and Ringo’s contribution. In fact, there’s another reason: George was coming into his own as an artist and composer, and was angry with John and Paul’s policy of holding him to one track per album. Additionally, according to both the Bob Spitz and Peter Brown biographies, he was furious with the deteriorating financial circumstances at Apple (which caused Lennon to once predict that without a solid manager in place, they would be broke “within six months”, which was what triggered the whole Klein/Eastman/Northern Songs issue). And then there were the drugs, and the creative differences, and the control issues (Lennon: “We were tired of being sidemen for Paul”), and Paul wanted to solo with Linda, and yes, the whole Yoko thing. As I mentioned above, she was a divisive force, possibly even the proverbial “last straw”, but the division was already there before she got there and to lay it all at her feet as many have is unfair. They may have carried on a while longer if she hadn’t come around, but they were still headed for a break-up beyond the shadow of a doubt.

quote: Chad Souder
Spinal Tap comes to mind

Please. Spinal Tap was a parody. Mind you, it was a very funny parody, and I'm sure in many ways too accurate for comfort to most bands, but still a parody. Name another real-life example besides the Beatles and/or Nirvana, 'cause the jury still seems to be out there as well.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 08-27-2010, 12:04 AM:

The Spinal Tap thing was supposed to be funny. I know it was a mockumentary. I think everyone knows that. At least I hope so. As for another real life example:

Scott Weiland Blames Wives

I'm not saying Yoko was the sole reason, but you can't understate her importance. She broke up John's marriage, so obviously she had a very strong effect on him. She became a constant companion, sitting in on recording sessions, which bothered the other Beatles. It is true that after Brian Epstein died there was no leadership and the band was left wandering. John just happened to wander wherever Yoko wanted him to.

My original question was not exclusively focused on the bands breaking up. If that was unclear, I apologize. I said a woman influenced the demise of the band (not was the sole reason), which I think we agree on, but then I asked which woman had a bigger influence and was more destructive to the music world. If you listen to whatever that garbage Two Virgins is supposed to be and don't think Yoko was a destructive influence to music, then I guess we will just disagree.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 08-27-2010, 08:36 AM:

Outside of John Lennon, I don't think Yoko had any influence on Music (though she did complain about some New Wave acts doing her schtick, it was a stretch).

Now, if you want to compare The Plastic Ono Band to Hole, I'd say they both produced some perfectly acceptable songs.