Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Mac User Needs Advice

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-04-2010, 09:06 PM:

We're having issues getting my laptop to play nice with the booth equipment. It's a school-issued computer, primarily for my office work but they hoped it could multitask as a booth computer.

It's not working out so well.

The computer was set up by the university's executive IT department -- they are great, btw. The laptop came with Windows 7 on it and some other special security software plus all the applications I need like MS Office and Adobe CS. But it doesn't allow me to operate (normally) as an admin. And they would not install an older version of Windows on it (like XP). There's an established policy for executive computers.

So...the workaround is this -- they've agreed to install whatever flavor of Windows I need if we buy another laptop -- and, after so many failed experiences with USB/Serial adapters, I want a computer with a built-in RS232 (aka COMM) port.

Here's the catch -- it's coming out of my boss' budget, so I have to go bargain hunting on Ebay for it...and I'm a Mac user so I don't know where to begin!

I have to connect with Dolby CP650, DMA8PLUS, QSC DCP300, Strand dimmer rack and probably also our routers -- haven't memorized them all but the AES router is by Evertz. And I'll probably need to run DRAS at some point.

What would YOU recommend??????

Which Windows OS?
Which make/model? How fast?
Any other info?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-04-2010, 10:30 PM:

If you're looking for something cheap(-ish) on Ebay, try looking for a Dell D630 with 32-bit Windows XP. It isn't really amazing in any way, but it does have a built-in serial port and the build quality is better than average (though not amazing). These are a few years old now, but should be serviceable if well kept. You might want to replace the hard disk with a solid-state device.

Personally, I prefer the IBM/Lenovo laptops to the Dells, but they haven't had proper serial ports for a number of years. [Frown]

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 11-05-2010, 02:05 AM:

A couple of buddies of mine buy/sell used computer equipment and can probably set you up with a good deal on a used laptop. Here's their site.

Posted by Lionel Fouillen (Member # 1475) on 11-05-2010, 03:04 AM:

Another good one (I'v been installed dozens as an IT consultant) is the Compaq NC6000.
(specs here)

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-05-2010, 10:16 AM:

The only item in that line up that is serial is the CP650...the others are USB. The CP650 DOES play nice with the Keyspan USB->Serial adapter. I also recommend the SocketCom brand of PCMCIA to serial adapters (if you have a puter with such a slot). My boss got an IBM/Leveno with a "dock" ...the dock had an honest to god serial port on it.

I'm surprised that Dell or Leveno or HP hasn't come up with an "A/V" computer line up that features the 9-pin com port in addition to other features that A/V techs would want (multiple NICs...and such).

Steve

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-05-2010, 10:39 AM:

The strand dimmer rack is also RS232 only. The strand guy believes the security measures on my laptop are wreaking havoc with that software. He says it would require circumvention of some security measure(s) installed on the laptop and the University doesn't want us to go there with my office laptop. But they seem okay with helping me get a dedicated service computer up and running. IIRC we had an issue getting the QSC software to play nice too.

My office laptop is also 64-bit (not sure what that means) and Dolby says it's not supported and their software may/may not run. There was also a question about whether Evertz would have issues with that or not. But that issue is a ways off, since we don't have the other racks here yet.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-05-2010, 12:42 PM:

9-pin RS232 serial ports are becoming very difficult to find on any new computer system. It's not surprising so many notebook computers lack them. They're not found on most new desktop machines either. If a built in serial port is really necessary you'll have better luck finding that feature on an old, used computer system.

RS-232 is a really old standard and I'm not so sure if it is even supported under a 64-bit operating system. Edit: did some searching and RS-232 can work under 64-bit but it looks like some people have some tricky issues dealing with it. The move from older 32-bit compiled operating systems to 64-bit is breaking a lot of old software and hardware. For instance, under 32-bit Windows XP Pro SP3 I can still run Adobe Type Manager and use Postscript Type 1 Multiple Master fonts. ATM won't work under the 64-bit version of XP. I don't think it will even work with the 32-bit versions of Vista or Win 7 either.

USB to Serial adapters can work well. I've had no problems with the Belkin model adapter I use with my old Dell Inspiron 6000 notebook. The real key for these adapters to work properly is giving the user ways to change the data format and baud rate.

I have used these kinds of adapters to allow computers to send data to LED-based electronic variable message centers. The EMCs aren't always built with the same settings. One may be set in 8N1 data format at a 9600 baud rate while another from the same company arrives running in 7E2 38400. Everything in the serial connection has to be running at the same settings otherwise it just isn't going to work. Sometimes you even have to go into Windows Control Panel's Device Manager to make sure the COM port settings there are correct.

In the last couple or so years manufacturers of electronic message centers have FINALLY moved away from those damned serial connections. Unfortunately, the newer WiFi and Ethernet connected units have more complicated issues -but at least they're compatible with new computer systems.

Regarding Administrator level access, I think such permissions are necessary to have RS-232 function fully and properly. In the context of LED message centers communicating via RS-232 I've seen cases where customers tried using message center software under a guest level account. It was all good until they tried transmitting messages to the sign. Windows would either block the operation or the message center software would crash. It simply would not work without administrator level permissions.

quote: Steve Guttag
I'm surprised that Dell or Leveno or HP hasn't come up with an "A/V" computer line up that features the 9-pin com port in addition to other features that A/V techs would want (multiple NICs...and such).

The bigger question I have is why are certain manufacturers of TV sets and home theater hardware still continuing to use 9-pin serial connectors on some devices when USB, Ethernet and even HDMI 1.4 (which includes Ethernet functions) can perform the same functions?

Additionally, why do the USB ports on so many things like HDTV sets and standalone Blu-ray players suck? The ports are stupidly limited on what they can do and what sorts of USB connected devices they'll "see." That's one of numerous reasons why the Playstation 3 kicks so much ass as a home theater and multimedia device.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-05-2010, 01:09 PM:

There is nothing wrong with RS232.

Advantages over other options are as follows (among others):

- it is a standard, and is supported by everything from desktop PC hardware to mainframes
- requires no special hardware or software--just a generic terminal program (typically included with most operating systems) will suffice
- plenty of existing equipment to allow remote access of RS232 devices (ever hear of a USB terminal server? me neither...)
- cables and adapters are easy to make and can be run over long(-ish) distances (depends on speed and quality of cable)
- it is a real-time, direct connection, and not subject to the latency of IP networks
- it avoids the security issues that would arise on an IP network if a device were able to accept random commands without authentication from anywhere in the world, and also avoids the complexity of implementing a suitable authentication scystem

Yes, the baud rates are annoying. In the IT industry, most stuff is 9600/8/N/1, no flow control, and sometimes 19200/8/N/1. The connectors are annoying, but this can be mitigated by carrying a couple of DB9->DB25 adapters (in various configurations), an RJ45<->DB adapter, and an adapter to flip the TX/RX pins. Six adapters and a cable will solve most of your RS232 issues. (Note that full RS232 cannot be implemented with a DB9 connector, as more pins are required.)

The remote-access thing is a big deal, at least for the IT end of things. In an unattended data center, it is critical to have access to serial consoles of every server, switch, router, etc. for remote maintenance and configuration work, especially if some network-related issue arises and needs to be fixed. This is easily done with a terminal server (used in reverse), which allows remote console access via ssh (or similar). Not having to send someone out to the data center to fix things saves substantial money and time.

Agreed with Steve--someone should make a laptop specifically for people who need to work with this stuff and market it as such. It would probably sell quite well.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-05-2010, 01:16 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
If a built in serial port is really necessary you'll have better luck finding that feature on an old, used computer system.

quote: Manny Knowles
I have to go bargain hunting on Ebay for it

Yes. I'm looking for a used one.

I figured many of y'all would have a certain make/model that you'd swear by. Maybe wish you still had it, or maybe you do still use it.

That's what I need -- a make, model and OS -- there's just too many choices out there, and I only want to do this once.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-05-2010, 02:07 PM:

One of our office notebooks is a Dell Inspiron 600m running XP Pro SP3. The thing has to be at least 5 or 6 years old. It still works just fine, although a tad bit on the slow side. Built in serial port.

quote: Scott Norwood
cables and adapters are easy to make and can be run over long(-ish) distances (depends on speed and quality of cable)

I don't know the exact cut-off in terms of cable length but at a certain point you have to go to RS-485. We have had to use RS-485 on a few message centers where the customer insisted on having a hard line run from the computer to the sign, but didn't want to spend the extra coin for a fiber optic connection. Some of that savings gets spent on surge protection from lightning strikes.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-05-2010, 02:12 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
There is nothing wrong with RS232.

Agreed, although Scott forgot to point out one other thing...it is SOLID. It just works and once you have the correct baud rate, it ALWAYS works. I greatly prefer to make my D-cinema projector connection via serial for precisely this reason. It is a no-bs solution that never fails. Ethernet is great and all, but if someone should connect an IP based item on the same network and assign it the same IP as in this example a projector, how well does it work then? What happens when someone creates a loop accidentally in the network while trying to troubleshoot something else? Bad news. Ethernet is easy so long as you know what you are doing, but serial never fails.

Manny, the Dell Optiplex line of laptops is ideal for this. I've had a D820, D830 and currently use an E6510. The D630 model is a no frills laptop that will do everything you need for tech work. Do note all of the new laptops, such as the E6510, no longer have a dedicated serial port, but Dell makes legacy extenders for their current models. It attaches to the laptop and you can leave it there all the time if you like, or it is easily removable if you want to leave it in your laptop bag.

Tip - if you are going to be doing B-chains, I would look for a high screen resolution so you can see your RTA and EQ controls side by side.

Buy from Dell's refurb site, not ebay. You get a full warranty.

D620

D630

D830 - I would recommend this model

(Always look for 7200RPM hard drive speed.)

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 11-05-2010, 02:34 PM:

Manny, I am using a Toshiba Satellite L505D-S5983 laptop that I bought NEW from Best Buy for $500. Comes with Win7 Home Premium, and I am using the Keyspan USB to serial adaptor and it works with Dolby, QSC and AMX hardware with NO issues.

Only thing I had to change was the "Compatibility Mode" on some of the software (AMX and QSC) to Win XP SP2 or 3.

I think you can still get this model brand new, probably cheaper now since I bought this over a year ago.

One thing: If you buy from Best Buy make them give you one that hasn't been "Geek Squad" tweaked. (A lot of unneeded software that they add.)

SPECS form Toshiba

Edit: A few places to get them under $500:

BH Photo Video

AMAZON

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-05-2010, 03:46 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
If you buy from Best Buy make them give you one that hasn't been "Geek Squad" tweaked.

Actually I think you have that backwards, based on a recent Dell notebook purchase (by the way, Staples had the same exact model of Dell for a couple hundred dollars less than Best Buy so we bought it at Staples. But I digress.) The machines typically come from the factory loaded with all kinds of crapware, trial versions etc. Geek Squad's current pitch is to get you to pay them extra to *remove* all that stuff for you.

Anyway if you shop carefully you can get a really nice Windows notebook in the $500-$700 range.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-05-2010, 05:48 PM:

Forget the "geek squad", use the Windows re-install CD and do it yourself. One of the main reasons why I love Dell so much is besides the build quality being very good and high reliability, they have next-day-repair-service for free during the warranty, you don't have to jack with Windows serial codes when lobotomizing the system and all of the drivers for your system are available at http://support.dell.com Each system has its own unique code. [thumbsup]

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 11-05-2010, 11:03 PM:

Dell versions of Windows (starting with XP) have a BIOS check and as long as it is a Dell BIOS on a machine that came out with XP or later there is no "activation" required; it doesn't even ask for a product key.

Posted by Michael Voiland (Member # 5386) on 11-06-2010, 12:42 PM:

Go to Google type DFS eBay
Dell offers off lease laptops on eBay for a bargain. I would look at a latitude d610, 20, or 30.
They all have serial ports all the D series should the 510, 20, and 30s are good to.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 03-30-2012, 11:11 PM:

It has been 510 days since the last post.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-30-2012, 11:11 PM:

Okay. Thanks for all the input.

I inherited an older Dell Latitude - probably one of the ones Brad recommended but I don't recall the model number. IIRC, it's from the D series. Anyway, the important thing is that it has a COM port and I'm able to get things done.

New Question: Are there any devices with setup software that does not play nice with Windows 7 ?

This laptop currently has XP installed on it.

In other words - should I stick with XP?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-31-2012, 12:37 AM:

Yes stick with XP. It just works. If you want pretty, bubbly things, use your Mac.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-31-2012, 02:23 AM:

Windows XP is pretty solid. The downside is the "drop dead date" on support (last time I checked) is April 8, 2014 -about 2 years from now. No more security patches, bug fixes or anything like that. Probably not a bad thing if you use an old XP-based notebook merely to connect via RS-232 to certain pieces of gear. But it's a different matter if it is connected to a network or God forbid the Internet.

I'm sure Microsoft would love to drop support for XP like 2 years ago. The problem is too many business and home users still use it on computers connected to the Internet. So they've had to push back the drop dead date for XP support repeatedly. For all I know the 4/2014 date might not hold.

At some point everyone will have to move on from XP. The OS is not being sold on any new computers. Old computers eventually die via failure of a critical part that cannot be replaced.

Moving to Win 7 isn't all that easy, especially the 64-bit version. The XP user will find a lot of older software just won't run. The "Professional" and "Ultimate" versions of Win 7 have the XP compatibility mode, but anything running in that mode loses the advantages of 64-bit operation.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-31-2012, 03:18 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
At some point everyone will have to move on from XP. The OS is not being sold on any new computers.

Dell offers it.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-31-2012, 03:34 AM:

XP: Best Windows OS out there..

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 03-31-2012, 06:06 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I don't know the exact cut-off in terms of cable length but at a certain point you have to go to RS-485. We have had to use RS-485 on a few message centers where the customer insisted on having a hard line run from the computer to the sign, but didn't want to spend the extra coin for a fiber optic connection. Some of that savings gets spent on surge protection from lightning strikes.

The official limit for RS-232 is 50 feet, but in the days before network connectible printers I've driven them about three times that distance at 19,200 over four-core unscreened burglar alarm cable.

RS-422 is the differential version, which can go much further, but I can't remember the figure. It specifies Voltage levels etc., but not connector types, and I don't think flow control, which would be done in software at a higher level. It's just a means of getting fairly small numbers of bits from one place to another; it can reach a few Mb/s over short distances. Many other interfaces use RS-422 at the physical layer, including RS-485 which is a multi-drop bus which allows several devices to be daisy-chained, we have it at work for the entrance barriers; the security server talks Ethernet to the first barrier controller, that talks RS-485 to each of the other controllers, and the controllers talk some sort of point to point serial, I think it's RS-422, to the barriers themselves and the contactless card readers on them.

I think AES/EBU digital audio, uses RS-422 at the physical layer, can anybody confirm this?, as do several of the digital lighting control systems.

IP over Ethernet to a controller, and then some sort of serial to whatever is being monitored and controlled is very common, and USB is almost never used for this sort of thing. The distances involved are typically greater than USB can handle, and the data involved are tiny.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-31-2012, 08:02 AM:

I have a new Win7 laptop...I like it in many ways and it is really fast (fast boot up too) but it definitely does NOT work with everything XP does so as a tech I would have an XP computer at this point if I had only one (I still have my trusty XP machine too).

Mind you, more and more are programs are working with Win7 just fine and even optimized for it...Dolby offers 64-bit versions of their programs, for instance.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 04-01-2012, 05:59 AM:

Okay - XP it shall be. Thanks for the advice!

I've run RS-232 over 100-ft. I like to be in the cinema when I create the lighting presets. That calls for a very long cable. Fortunately, it works. [Smile]

BTW, the laptop I inherited is a Dell Latitude D520.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-01-2012, 07:30 AM:

Yes, DELL still builds Laptops with serial Ports (some only on docking stations), and you can also get a used one with XP dead-cheap from ebay. I have a nice small D430 with a dockingstation offering all imaginable ports on it, a 'real' RS232 among them. DELL Latitude D630 and D830 have real RS232 as well. I remember the D830 coming with either XP or WIN7, so, that specific model has proper drivers for both windows versions and might be a good choice to buy.

- Carsten