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Dear Tom and Ray:

When I was a youngster and would ride along with my father, I noticed that he would always put his car in Neutral when stopped at a traffic light. Of course, I'm referring to an automatic transmission. Once I started driving, I found myself doing the same thing. Now, after driving for more than 20 years, I am still doing this, in the belief that it is better for the transmission, the drive train, or the automobile... period. Can you give me some insight on whether there is any benefit to this, or am I just creating more problems for myself? John

Tom: You add credence to our theory, John, that 98% of the misinformation in this century can be traced back to fathers. The other two percent comes from either brothers or the CIA.

Ray: I think your father's habit dates back to the early days of the automatic transmission. When automatics were new, drivers probably didn't trust them entirely. And there was probably some fear that these things could "run away" from you. So drivers would shift into Neutral at traffic lights because it seemed safer.

Tom: But the truth is it doesn't help the car at all, and in fact, it probably does some harm. Every time you shift to Neutral and back into Drive, you "relax" and then "stress" every component of the drive train. And all that does is wear out those moving parts.

Ray: Now, to be fair to you and dear old dad, in the grand scheme of things, you're really not doing much harm to your car. It just means that some of those parts will wear out a little sooner than they would have otherwise (maybe even after you've sold the car to your brother). Our point is simply that you're not doing the car any good by shifting back and forth all the time.

Tom: So I suggest you make some better use of your time at stop lights, John. Try polishing the buckle on the seat belt...or if you want a little more of a challenge, try figuring out whether your current odometer reading is a prime number.

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-11-2011, 11:32 PM:
 
Thanks Randy,

I don't know why I stopped listening to those hilarious guys. They used to make my Saturday morning drive to the theatre a real hoot.

Thanks for finding this -- I'll be able to quote them now for my friend's benefit.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-12-2011, 12:02 AM:
 
When I was a field service tech down South, I did a lot of driving in Sunday. When you try to listen to the radio on Sunday, the only two things you'll find are Preachers and Racing.

Pretty quick, you learn to hunt down the NPR stations and program them into your radio. I listened to Car Talk quite often.

BTW: Think about this... In an automatic transmission, when you step on the break, the torque converter stalls out but the driven impeller still turns. The rotor/stator and the turbine are stationary but the engine is still dumping power into the driven half of the converter.

Regardless of what load is on the other side of the converter, the engine is still turning it. It makes no difference what gear the car is in or even neutral. You've got your foot on the break, the wheels are locked, the drive shaft is stationary, the transmission is stationary. Nothing moves. The engine is just churning oil.

If there is any fuel savings, it is likely to be so small as to be unmeasurable and, what savings there might be will certainly be nullified by the increased wear and tear on the engine and transmission as it is shifted in and out of gear.

I vote with Click and Clack.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-12-2011, 12:03 AM:
 
The Car Guys are awesome, I used to read them every week in my local paper. But then the paper stopped carrying their column for some reason so I unsubscribed to the paper.

I wouldn't bother shifting out of drive in an automatic unless I needed to go in reverse, turn the car off or was going down a steep grade hill. But some people take it to the extreme, they also shift into neutral to "coast" down hills and save gas! As a driver of a manual transmission, I sometimes do that and of course the transmission is never engaged at a stop, but it's much easier to do and the potential for catastrophic damage is much less severe (no chance of accidentally shifting into reverse). I can't remember how it is on automatics, but do you have to pass reverse to get from drive to neutral and back? If so, your reverse lights flash as you do this and people behind you think you're an idiot.

I do sometimes turn the car engine off at drive-throughs (fast food places and banks) while I wait, though. That definitely saves *some* gas and there really isn't any reason to keep it running if you're going to be in the same spot for more than a minute or so unless you want the AC or heat. Some people even do this at stop lights (which is a bit extreme, in my opinion).
 

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Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 04-12-2011, 07:15 AM:
 
I shut down at drive-thrus too if I know the wait will be long.

Hybrids automatically shut down when a car is stopped at a light, drive-thru, or whatever, and some regular gas models with this functionality are coming in the next couple of years.

Apparently, the big change needed in cars to make this viable is stronger starters.
 

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Posted by Keri Delio (Member # 6170) on 04-12-2011, 12:44 PM:
 
If you're going to try to do hyper-miling you really need to get a manual transmission to get any tangible mpg savings.
I'm all for saving as much gas as possible but some of these folks that hyper-mile take it to a silly extreme imo.
There are plenty of things you can do that are simple & effective like making sure the tires are inflated properly all around, changing the oil, spark plugs, air filter regularly & just general maintenance like 02 sensors to make sure the car is in good working order.
There were plenty of little Japanese econo-boxes in the 80s-90s that got 40-50mpg running straight gasoline that can be had used today for a bargain if you really want to get good mpgs without shelling out a decent amount of cash for a hybrid.
I'm not a fan of hybrids at all for tons of reasons but I don't want to go into all the specifics & bore everyone to tears here.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-12-2011, 01:56 PM:
 
Car Talk fans: You can listen to the current week's show for free at http://www.cartalk.com. And also read their newspaper columns.

About shutting off the engine: I heard once that if you are going to be stopped for more than one minute, it saves gas to shut it off. But, it puts wear on the starter and a lot of other things when you start up again so I'm kind of in both camps on that one. I guess if you are involved in A LOT of stop-and-go where you have to wait several times a day, then leave it running. But if it only involves shutting down once or twice a day, then shut it down for the long waits.

My old friend Skeetch used to have a '71 Mustang with an automatic, but he would shift it as if it was a stick. But, he was nuts.
 

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Posted by Keri Delio (Member # 6170) on 04-12-2011, 04:53 PM:
 
One of my husband's friends had an Infiniti Q45 automatic that he shifted as if it was a manual also.
He took all the sound deadening out of the floorboards on it also & was/is crazy too. Dunno what it is about guys wanting to shift automatics from L to D ... they just seem off to me
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-12-2011, 05:49 PM:
 
Jeez! If you want to shift gears, buy a standard transmission!

Shifting automatics is for pansies who don't know how to work the clutch!
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-12-2011, 06:16 PM:
 
Oh, Skeetch knew how to work the clutch all right -- he was a gear-head who just wished he had a stick shift in his car. He loved to rev the engine up far beyond where the AT would normally shift before he would drop into second. He was a wannabe hot-rodder.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-14-2011, 02:04 PM:
 
When my mother used to work for "Ma Bell" and drive company cars, it was a mandantory policy that at the light, the vehile WAS to be in neutral so that if one slips his foot off the brake pedal and the car began to move forward, an accident could happen - and "Ma Bell" didn't want any liability accidents on their record.

I do the neutral thing at the light in both manual and automatic since I picked up this habit from my mom's driving - along with my manual is a hydraulic clutch system and one day it did happen: the slave cylinder decides to let go and I suddenly lurched out into the intersection, which luckilly no traffic was around to destroy me in a broadside collision.

It was total fun getting that car home without a clutch so I can replace that slave cylinder.

But, true shifting an auto like a manual it totally retarded along with wearing out a tranny more faster.
 

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Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 04-14-2011, 02:55 PM:
 
Q: Does SHIFTING and automatic really save gas?
A: Only if you shift it into PARK and keep it there!

But seriously- - I don't know. My last 3 cars have
had manual shifts. I prefer them. Probably the same
reason I prefer running change-overs to platters.
. . . you've got to know what you're doing!

(Especially on the hills here in SF. I've actually
twice had tourists ask me to drive their cars up
a steep hill here!)
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-14-2011, 04:17 PM:
 
Subaru was smart in the early 80's when they added the "hill holder" option in their hydraulic clutch system:

When you held down the clutch on a stopped hill, a valve system also engaged the brakes so when you released the clutch, the valve system kept the brakes on so you won't burn out a clutch when starting out in the hills in S.F.

How it worked was that you pressed and stayed on the brake pedal, then press on the clutch, then release the brake pedal and the clutch was doing double duty in holding the clutch in and keeping the brakes on.

A bit of a complicated hydraulic system that Subaru came up with, but it worked. Only thing you noticed when the system was engaged was the heavier pressure on the clutch pedal.

-monte
 

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