Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: MGM HD presents West Side Story

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 09-04-2011, 02:00 AM:

quote:

MGM HD Presents West Side Story

Location: Avery Fisher Hall (New York City)
Price Range: $35.00-$75.00

Wed, Sep. 7, 2011 - SOLD OUT
7:30PM

Thu, Sep. 8, 2011
7:30PM

Celebrate the 50th anniversary of this iconic film and winner of ten Academy Awards, including Best Picture. The New York Philharmonic plays Leonard Bernstein’s electrifying score and memorable songs with lyrics by Stephen Sondheim live, while the newly re-mastered film is shown in glorious high definition on the big screen with the original vocals and dialog intact. This classic romantic tragedy, one of the greatest achievements in the history of movie musicals, features breath-taking choreography by Jerome Robbins and a masterful book by Arthur Laurents.

I'd love to see this performance, but unfortunately I'll be busy up in the Minneapolis area doing a Marcus digital conversion.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 09-04-2011, 12:12 PM:

Both performances are sold out.

I wonder if it is digital projection?

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 09-04-2011, 01:48 PM:

> Location: Avery Fisher Hall (New York City)

This is a live performance hall at Lincoln Center. While the Walter Reade Theatre at Lincoln Center is equipped for 35mm and 70mm, Avery Fisher is not. I would assume 1080p video.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 09-04-2011, 01:54 PM:

Was is interesting is that over here in Toronto, we just had an engagement of West Side Story in 70MM

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-04-2011, 05:24 PM:

quote:
shown in glorious high definition

I've heard of "glorious Technicolor" and "glorious 70mm" and "glorious ToddAO," but glorous BluRay....for theatrical presentation of a film that was shot in 70mm? Can these bullshitters even look at themselves in the mirror in the morning, let along into the eyes of their wives or children?

No doubt this is nothing but a publicity promotion for the BluRay release supposedly happening sometime in October (it's about time), which is fine -- for HOME VIDEO, but at Lincoln Center in New York CITY, they couldn't even muster up authoring a 4K digital print? Cheap bastards.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-04-2011, 06:33 PM:

Them high price tix buyers ain't gonna like it sitting close to the screen - being such a blurry presentation down there ..

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 09-04-2011, 07:16 PM:

If they really wanted to do this right, they could get the 70mm print and make up a new set of DTS disks without the music tracks...just the dialog and effects track.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-07-2011, 03:17 AM:

Exactly. How incongruous -- the spectacular sound of the great New York Philharmonic contrasted with a home video image on a theatre-size screen.

Here, let me say it again...maybe it won't sound as bad as when I first read it:

MGM HD Presents West Side Story

Location: Avery Fisher Hall (New York City)
Price Range: $35.00-$75.00

Nope. Still makes me up-chuck lunch.

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 09-07-2011, 06:03 AM:

Not surprised... Paramount just told me they are junking all their 70mm prints in Canada. That includes Titanic a year before the 100th anniversary of the sinking. Also all the Star Trek films, Untouchables the list goes on... in this digital age they don't want to store this large heavy analog stuff. Sad stuff.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-07-2011, 07:51 AM:

The digital projection aspect of this isn't the only one that worries me. The film was never conceived or intended to be shown with live music. Significant artistic decisions went into the recording and mixing of the music, in relation to the other components of the final mix (dialogue, dead track, SFX etc). These are going to be lost with a live orchestra playing, presumably in passages when the film soundtrack is muted (or are they going to play back the voice channel in the singing bits only, and have the orchestra try to play in sync?). Furthermore, orchestral playing styles and even the technology and materials in some of the instruments are completely different now to what they were then. If you listen to a recording of, say, Fritz Reiner conducting a Beethoven symphony in the '60s and then Gustavo Dudamel doing so now, you'll find it a totally different experience - and I'm not just talking about the recording and playback technology, but the style of the performance as well.

Of course I'm not so much of an anal purist as to claim that it's wrong for them to be doing this at all, but essentially what we've got here is a new dramatic performance inspired by the film as distinct from a reproduction of the film itself, on virtually every technical and artistic level.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 09-07-2011, 09:40 AM:

sure it's a unique presentation of the film, but no 70mm print engagement in the Big Apple?? wow, what an insult, glad I saw said print at the AFI Silver.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-07-2011, 09:48 AM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
The film was never conceived or intended to be shown with live music. Significant artistic decisions went into the recording and mixing of the music, in relation to the other components of the final mix (dialogue, dead track, SFX etc). These are going to be lost with a live orchestra playing, presumably in passages when the film soundtrack is muted (or are they going to play back the voice channel in the singing bits only, and have the orchestra try to play in sync?).

I would hope this version will have a special "minus music" mix with a click-track cue for the orchestra. I can't think of any other way for them to establish/maintain sync.

And by "minus music" I mean ONLY the ORCHESTRA would be dialed out. (The vocals would be preserved.)

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-07-2011, 09:51 AM:

Oh well, this is probably good enough for the digital generation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3HnS_W2zA4E

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 09-07-2011, 09:52 AM:

in regards to Manny's comment: granted they are newer films and music removal is possible, the orchestra/film presentation of 'The Fellowship of the Rings' 'The Two Towers' (at Wolf Trap) were generally in sync with what was occurring on screen.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 09-07-2011, 02:04 PM:

They did it in 2002 at the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles with ET during the film's 20th anniversary with John Williams conducting the Los Philhamonic. The segment showing Maestro Williams conducting the orchestra during the showing was included in the special boxed set edition of the movie on DVD and I have it.

- Claude

Posted by Jack Theakston (Member # 4484) on 09-07-2011, 02:38 PM:

I couldn't possibly think of a more mind-boggling boring, unoriginal concept. Sounds worse than Philip Glass' DRACULA show.

Snooorrreeee......

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-07-2011, 05:30 PM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
Fritz Reiner conducting a Beethoven symphony in the '60s and then Gustavo Dudamel doing so now, you'll find it a totally different experience - and I'm not just talking about the recording and playback technology, but the style of the performance as well.

(I'm gonna follow up with this one with Leo, thus excuse me for being off-topic for a bit here: Agree between Reiner and Dudamel: no comparison between the two.

Reiner was stone serious-his orchestra members almost hated him and even some had a fear for him, but Reiner turned the Chicago around totally from when Kubelik had it previously..and while Dudamel reminds me of Elton John back when Elton was quite the showman.
The Beethoven Reiner (RCA Victor Red Seal LSC-2343, recorded in late 1959, was an intesting recording in itself: Reiner followed the score as Beethoven wrote it. the opening "Victory"<dot-dot-dot-dash> phrase, most conductors leading this piece, adds the pause ((formata)) after that first phrase, but Beethoven didn't write the pause in the score-the repeat "Victory" phrase is to immediately continue then just the one formata afterwards, thus making the two "victories" as one phrase. Thus, when hearing this recording, it does catch you off-guard in thinking that Reiner flubbed on the conducting, or it was the results of a bad tape edit.)

It kinda shows how much that we are purists in the form of classic and exact presentations - none of this 'sugar coated' or 'plastic coated' stuff that likes to get re-released and studios calls it genuine.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-07-2011, 06:06 PM:

Agreed completely - the major American orchestras, conductors and pianists of the late 50s and '60s (Chicago/Reiner, Boston/Munch, Philadelphia/Ormandy etc.) had a unique style that you just didn't hear in classical recordings any more once the Karajan era got underway - brighter, sharper and with a more staccato edge to it, that perfectly complimented early stereo recording, which showed off channel separation better than frequency response. My favourite Reiner Living Stereo LP is the Brahms violin concerto with Jascha Heifetz - the playing is so sparse and precise that you hear every detail. That's also the style Bernstein himself developed during the early part of his conducting career (though admittedly I haven't seen West Side Story for over ten years, apart from one reel in a demo, and don't have any memories of the orchestral track on that) - in particular, his records of Nielsen's symphonies made in the early '60s spring to mind.

BTW, as well as the tendency of conductors to put in the unwritten rest between the two opening phrases of Beethoven's fifth, most pianists do exactly the same thing between the opening two phrases of the Hammerklavier sonata, too. The only recording I've heard in which it's actually played the way it's written is Glenn Gould's, which is ironic given that GG is quoted as saying that he hated it, and only ever performed it once in order to be able to claim that he'd 'been there and got the t-shirt' (i.e. performed all 32 of Beethoven's sonatas).

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-09-2011, 01:09 PM:

...but, the one conductor that made the Beethoven's 5th like it was walking in tar was Klemperer and the Philharmonia: he took the tempo close to 20% slower and literally "pounded" out the opening two phrases like it had tenuto marks above each note.

Also, on the Brahms/Heifetz/Reiner (RCA LSC-1903), (recorded Feb of 1955 two mic stereo with the helper mic on Heifetz) It was Heifetz's first stereo recording..and he was NOT impressed with the process - though it was "Hi-fi PHOOEY". During the playbacks, he heard the sound out of both speakers, but he was miffed that there wasn't any "center" speaker where he though his performance should be coming from, thus he got a bit twisted on the results.

Posted by Ramon Lamarca Marques (Member # 3621) on 09-11-2011, 05:32 AM:

The orchestral elements have been removed by Chace Audio by Deluxe using source separation technology. Either they did not have separate tracks to do a new mix without the orchestra or it was cheaper to use the new software. The software analyses the different timbres and keeps some and removes the others. I would be interested to find out how the remaining timbers (voice and sound effects) sound after this removal.

I very much doubt they would be using a Blu-ray since there is a 2K DCP of West Side Story. Obviously, it would have been much better to use one of the new amazing 70mm prints. I think there are gorgeous film scores, like the ones composed by Korngold that would benefit from being played in the concert hall with the film projected. I am not saying that the original film recording should be replaced but that live concerts would do justice at the beauty and complexity of scores by Korngold, Rozsa, Herrmmann, …

Very, very impressive the parallel discussion on music recordings, tempos, rests and tenuto marks! I once tried to approach the subject of the showing of classic films on film instead of digital, having a similar kind of precise approach as to the image characteristics on projected film versus digital until I got abuse from another forum member and gave up.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-11-2011, 07:40 AM:

Well Chace can really work miracles on that sort of stuff, and I'm sure they will have found a way of stripping out the orchestral parts effectively and with a cueing method that works. A few years ago I worked with Bob Heiber on a presentation about some British Dufaycolor films from the '30s that he'd worked on the tracks to (Yours Truly basically providing the historical background on the Dufay system). These were made just before the negative-positive variant of the system was introduced, and so the only surviving soundtrack elements were release prints that had been made by reversal-to-reversal contact printing from separate picture and soundtrack positives. So with the loss of contrast on a variable area track duplicated through reversal generations (at least it wasn't VD, though!) combined with the Dufay reseau in the track area, you can imagine howbad the original prints sounded in projection! Bob played us 'before and after' clips: the befores sounded worse than an acoustic 78 from the teens. But the afters were astonishing - as clear if not better than the same type of track duplicated through b/w generations as per usual.

quote: Monte L. Fullmer
Also, on the Brahms/Heifetz/Reiner (RCA LSC-1903), (recorded Feb of 1955 two mic stereo with the helper mic on Heifetz) It was Heifetz's first stereo recording..and he was NOT impressed with the process - though it was "Hi-fi PHOOEY". During the playbacks, he heard the sound out of both speakers, but he was miffed that there wasn't any "center" speaker where he though his performance should be coming from, thus he got a bit twisted on the results.

Weren't Mercury experimenting with a three-channel consumer playback system around the same time? I have a vague memory from reading Wilma Cozart Fine's autobiography that when she played session recordings back to musicians with the three channels as recorded (L, R and a third mic boosting a soloist a bit) they reacted very positively, but were less impressed at the final stereo LP. I seem to recall that she proposed a three-channel 1/4-inch tape recorder to various manufacturers for seriously wealthy, classical music buffs to buy, but that none were interested, because by that stage the industry had basically settled on stereo for home playback.

Incidentally, on the subject of RCA Living Stereo classical LPs, I made an interesting discovery a few weeks ago. The versions that were sold in Britain were cut and pressed by Decca under a licensing agreement from copies of the master tapes supplied by RCA - not by RCA themselves in the US. For some reason early Decca stereo classical LPs, including the RCA-licensed ones, are much sought after by collectors and regularly go for £50 plus on Ebay (here for example). The ones that really fetch the serious money are the pre-1970 pressings, before Decca switched from tube-powered cutter preamps to transistorised ones.

Needless to say, I don't possess very many of these! To be precise, I own four UK, Decca-pressed Living Stereos, two inherited from my grandmother, one picked up in a thrift store type place for a lot less than it would have got if Ebayed, and one of which I'll come on to in a moment. I do, however, have about 30-40 pre-Dynagroove US-pressed Living Stereos (with the dog label), most of them bought in the used records department of Amoeba Music in Hollywood on trips to the US, none of which cost more than $3 and almost all of which sound amazing. I've even picked up 99-cent ones in more or less mint condition.

I've always wondered if the UK-pressed Living Stereos actually sound better or if the high prices they fetch are just snobbery. Well, recently, I got the chance to find out. My local Oxfam shop (big charity chain of thrift stores) had a UK-pressed copy of LSC-2581 (Brahms' piano concerto #2, Van Cliburn/Reiner) for which they wanted £10 - normally a lot more than I'd be willing to pay for a used LP, but I already had a copy of the US pressing and was itching to make a comparison.

It was a shock - the British pressing was virtually unlistenable compared to the American one. The tape hiss was seriously distracting, with a lot of the piano solo passages virtually getting lost in it. The bass response and channel separation were nothing like as good in the RCA-pressed version, either. If my two copies aren't rogue examples from their respective factories (the US one unusually good and the UK one unusually bad), then I can't begin to understand why collectors are willing to pay so much for the British examples. I can only assume that they don't really like to listen to music at all, but only want the Decca discs because they were probably pressed in much smaller quantities and therefore have snob value. All I know as a result of that is that I'll be continuing to test Delta's excess baggage weight policy to the limit after future trips to Amoeba!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-11-2011, 09:08 AM:

It would also depend on which sound mix accompanies it. Paul Rayton helped locate and restore the true 6 track Oscar winning mix which in itself is utterly amazing! To have to sit through a lame 5.1 mix down with hard centered dialog would be disgusting... it might even increase the frequency of Joe Redefer's IBS! It was not intended to be heard that way!

Mark

Posted by Ramon Lamarca Marques (Member # 3621) on 09-11-2011, 09:42 AM:

From the program notes, it seems the ‘sound extraction’ was done from a monophonic mix. I would imagine it would be six times the effort to digitally remove the orchestra from six tracks. I have seen the new 70mm print but only with the 5.1 mix and I would love to see the original mix found by Paul Rayton. Nevertheless, I would also like to see a live orchestra playing the music synched to the screening of the film. If properly done, these types of events remind me of the showmanship of yesteryears. But they must be properly done.