Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: To trash or not to trash a very vinegared Cinerama reel

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Posted by Tony L. Hernandez (Member # 3524) on 01-08-2012, 05:49 PM:

I recently obtained a reel of "Cinerama Holiday" (complete with a gorgeous old Cinerama reel)for my collection at home. I am thrilled to death to own this however I am extremely worried about how to properly store it as the film has very bad vinegar syndrome. This would normally not concern me as I intend to use it as a decoration only but as I stated, I will be keeping this in my home, which already host multiple 16 and 35mm prints in almost every room. I do intend to build a storage building on my property in the future to house all of my non-decorative prints and film related items but in the meantime, how to I keep this reel in my home without having it infect my functional prints that have cost me thousands of dollars as well as most of my life to collect, maintain and store?
I would really love to keep the film too but I suppose I could try to remove it and just keep the reel if there is no other option. This may be a challenge in its self though since parts of the print have solidified.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE share any ideas or insight you may have in this matter. Although I am fairly well educated about VS and its dangers, I am no expert. Thanks, guys!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-08-2012, 06:04 PM:

It's up to you... Is the base warped yet or will it run? Do you have the proper projector to run it on? The film and orig. negatives still exist. I tossed my 3-strip footage because it was not runnable... it was even IB Tech... Brothers Grimm.

Mark

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 01-08-2012, 06:21 PM:

Ah. E-bay!
You say parts of the reel have "solidified". If that is the case then the film has probably suffered water damage of some kind, and wont be much good, or it is not Safety Film at all. Have you would through the reel to see it is all Cinerama footage? Over time the decomposing triacetate base will damage your other films. It must be kept in complete isolation. I would be inclined to save the best thousand feet or so and keep it in a closed container away from the rest of your collection.
Cheers!
Phillip.

Posted by Tony L. Hernandez (Member # 3524) on 01-08-2012, 06:26 PM:

Mark,

I'm pretty sure the base is shot; it's one of the worst vinegared prints I have ever seen. I currently have it stuck behind the screen of one of my theaters while I determine how to store it when I get it home so I cannot check it right now. And no, I have no way of running it. At any rate, I'm sure that weather or not I trash the film or keep it will not be critical to the film preservation end of things. I simply purchased it as a personal novelty and collectable with the occasional display at museums that contact me to borrow such things for temporary exhibits.

I am trying to determine if there is any possible way for me to keep the film on the reel (since it is actual 3-strip Cinerama film which I think is pretty neat) without jeopardizing the safety of my good, functional prints. If I cannot figure out how to do this, I am afraid I may have to remove and trash the footage so that I can keep the empty reel. I really am hoping I do not have to do that, though....

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-08-2012, 07:03 PM:

Ah yes, we film collectors are a crazy bunch.

If you intend to display this reel and the film on it in a different area than where you store your other viable prints, there is no reason not to keep the vinegar film on the reel. That said, you should be aware that eventually the film on that reel will distort so badly, drip crud and smell more and more pungent that it will not even look like film to the casual observer, so its historical significance will be compromised. that fact that it is the ACTUAL Cinerama film will be less meaninful if it and the reel together don't actually look like the real thing. I needs to look like film to be impressive. The observer will never see the actual footage, so I would go with using junk film so at least you have a "recreation" of what it looked. And as much as the reel itself is a wonderful artifact, that glop that the film will turn into on it will detract from the aesthetics of the reel itself.

I say get it off the reel now while you can still unravel it. The longer it decays, the harder it will be to remove it. And of course you can still sell frames on ebay if there are still viable single frames to be salvaged.

As for the rest of your collection, if you need to store this reel for any lenght of time among living, healthy prints until you can figure out where you will display it, then get a really thick lawn & leaf garbage bag and put the reel in it and seal it well with gaffer tape. As long as the off gassing of the VS reel can't reach the other prints, you are fine. Also, I get unnerved hearing the word "infect" used when talking about VS. VS is a chemical cascade reaction, not a disease carrying virus. It doesn't "infect" other prints and the proximity needs to be fairly close for the out-gas of one decomposing print to actually change the pH in the air around the other prints enough that another good reel will start to cascade. I have heard people say a VS print stored in one part of the house will be able to "infect" good prints in other parts of the house. Or that if you run a good print thru a projector that has ran a VS print, the good print will get "infected." Rubbish. It's unfortunate that the "disease" analogy started being used by collectors to describe VS because it just is wrong on a number of levels and causes more misinformation about how the process works than need be out there.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-08-2012, 08:37 PM:

One of these days Tony will have a party at his house and many of his friends who have never been over to his house before will come in and have the most unusual look on their face...from the smell.

Living with the faint odor, you will slowly become desensitized to it. Someone who is not used to it will walk through your front door and get hit with it.

Just something to think about. [Razz]

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-08-2012, 09:10 PM:

Is this a situation where a good soaking with Film-Guard would help out?

I'm thinking something like placing the film and reel in a tin or tub, immersing it fully in FG overnight or a day or two, dumping out that FG then repeating it one or more times till the vinegar smell goes away...

Or is this a no-win scenario?

Posted by Tony L. Hernandez (Member # 3524) on 01-08-2012, 09:17 PM:

Definitely safety film, Phillip. It has all of the proper Cinerama insignia on the head and I also did the old trick of cutting off 2 frames and attempting to burn them in the parking lot, and it did not burn.

Thank you for the notes on VS, Frank. As I said, I know a bit about VS but am no expert. Although I have never been too paranoid about running a good print on a projector that has run a VS print, I have always cleaned the hell out of everything that touched it. I was under the impression that in addition to the gasses you mentioned, there were crystals or other artifacts that could be left behind and ruin future prints.

I was considering having the reel incased in some sort of shrink wrap or frame but Frank brought up a good point: what happens when the film deteriorates to the point that it looks like [bs]

on the reel and I cannot get it off. I am now thinking that I may break it down on cores and isolate the print while saving and displaying the reel.
Other input is still welcome and appreciated.

I found your comment funny, Brad as I was thinking the exact same thing the other day regarding the horrid odor. It may leave our house guests literally in "tears" when they leave (never to return) and I was personally fearing it may flush my husband (who is already extremely patient with my eccentricities) out as well. As cool as the full Cinerama reel is, he is worth a good deal more. I should be happy settling with a cool, albeit empty, Cinerama reel along with a husband and happy houseguests.

Not sure about the Film Guard idea, Tony but it sounds like a good idea. I bet Brad could answer this...

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-08-2012, 09:31 PM:

It's really a no-win situation, Tony. I've worked with VS prints and have used every manner of stuff on them. Once the cascade begins, it is a self-generating reaction which increases exponentially. And since what is happening is WITHIN the molecular structure of the base itself, stuff you put on it externally will not stop it. At best, you might be able to slow the progression. It can be slowed by using a disiccant to absorb the acidic gas that the process produces (which in turn breaks down more of the composition which in turn produces more acidic gas, and so on and so on). But you can't aborb the acid that is being generated within the base itself and that process will go on unimpeded by anything you apply externally.

Film Guard will help to keep a slightlly VS print supple longer and this can allow the film to run longer so you get more life out of it. Same with VitaFilm and (which claims to slow VS down, probably due to its pH level) as well as naptha, but in the end, it's a loosing battle.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-08-2012, 10:30 PM:

It sounds like that film is too far gone to be able to save.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-08-2012, 11:11 PM:

Now that is a bummer....

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 01-09-2012, 07:01 AM:

Tony H., one thing you could do is create a display pack to show your friends the difference between different formats. Cut off a few frames of Cinerama, get some 35mm standard and scope and possibly even a 70mm frame or two. Maybe even some 8mm, 16mm or Imax frames. Laminate them so that you can see through it and show that to those who might be interested.

The Cinerama team in Dayton made up some 35mm/Cinerama laminated cards that they sold to visitors. It doesn't take up much room and certainly didn't have any vinegar smell.