quote: Mike Blakesley

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My cynical self thinks this whole brouhaha is just a stunt to get free publicity for the movie.

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quote:

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3) PG-13 - Parents Strongly Cautioned. Some Material May Be Inappropriate For Children Under 13.
A PG-13 rating is a sterner warning by the Rating Board to parents to determine whether their children under age 13 should view the motion picture, as some material might not be suited for them. A PG-13 motion picture may go beyond the PG rating in theme, violence, nudity, sensuality, language, adult activities or other elements, but does not reach the restricted R category. The theme of the motion picture by itself will not result in a rating greater than PG-13, although depictions of activities related to a mature theme may result in a restricted rating for the motion picture. Any drug use will initially require at least a PG-13 rating. More than brief nudity will require at least a PG-13 rating, but such nudity in a PG-13 rated motion picture generally will not be sexually oriented. There may be depictions of violence in a PG-13 movie, but generally not both realistic and extreme or persistent violence. A motion picture’s single use of one of the harsher sexually-derived words, though only as an expletive,initially requires at least a PG-13 rating. More than one such expletive requires an R rating, as must even one of those words used in a sexual context. The Rating Board nevertheless may rate such a motion picture PG-13 if, based on a special vote by a two-thirds majority, the Raters feel that most American parents would believe that a PG-13 rating is appropriate because of the context or manner in which the words are used or because the use of those words in the motion picture is inconspicuous.

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Weinstein at least has a leg to stand on for an appeal on context and appropriateness.

I'd still prefer him to say "screw you" and release it unrated. I just love the arrogance of the MPAA/CARA thinking they speak for the average parent. Just because yo have to be a parent to be on the ratings board, doesn't mean you speak for anyone other than yourself (and the lobby wing of the motion picture industry).
As always, notice the ratings are warnings for parents, not admission instructions for theatres.

And just noticed the "any drug use." I'm sure they mean illegal, but would love to see someone appeal that
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-13-2012, 11:18 AM:
 
Well there was a time when every Main Street in America had a store that said DRUGS on the outside. Now, they have all been replaced by pharmacies.

What I wonder about "Bully" is how many F-bombs there are. If it's dozens (and if it's about today's high school kids, I'm sure there are) then the R rating is appropriate. If it's just a handful, then I could see an appeal on the context issue.

I still remember "Tootsie" had Bill Murray saying "Fuck you" to Dustin Hoffman at least two or three times and that movie still got a PG. (That was before PG-13 was established though.)
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 03-13-2012, 01:03 PM:
 
This reminds me of when we showed the Demott/Kreines non-fiction[they'd kill me if I called it a documentary] film Seventeen. Lots of teenagers in Muncie, IN using lots of, as they say at the MPAA. "language."

During one of the shows a middle-age woman came to my office fuming mad. She just couldn't believe the language in the movie. I pointed out those were real kids speaking as they speak. She replied "I've raised three teenagers and NONE of them have EVER spoken like that."
I had to bite my tongue to keep from saying "Clearly you have no idea how your kids speak when you aren't there."

Just so many parents hopelessly trying to protect their kids from something that won't hurt them.
 

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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 03-13-2012, 04:53 PM:
 

quote: Mike Blakesley

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What I wonder about "Bully" is how many F-bombs there are.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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Regarding the profanity in the documentary, I agree with Mike. Why not just bleep out the words in order to get the PG or PG-13 rating? Most people can fill in the blanks and correctly imagine the profane word that was bleeped based on well known figures of speech, sentence structure, etc.

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quote:

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To: All NATO Members Operating in the U.S.

From: John Fithian
Re: An Important Message about the Rating System

As you have no doubt read, The Weinstein Company (TWC) has orchestrated significant public and media attention to the "R" rating assigned to the movie "Bully". Please consider the following:

- The voluntary rating system was created in the 1960's as an alternative to a growing patch work of local censorship boards, and to replace the outmoded industry "Hays Code". By honoring the voluntary rating system since that time, the industry has prevented further government intervention.

- From time to time particular filmmakers or distributors disagree with a rating applied by the board to a particular movie. That is why the appeals board exists. The appeals board is made up of representatives from distribution and exhibition, among others. And those appeals board members are trained in the details of the ratings rules.

- "Bully" is a documentary focusing on the important issue of child bullying.

- The movie was assigned an "R" rating by the ratings board for language.

- That rating was sustained on appeal.

- The rules and procedures of the rating system do not permit MPAA and NATO to change the rating of the originally submitted version of the movie to a PG-13. We would have to completely abandon the system and its rules to change the rating.

- TWC can achieve a PG-13 rating by submitting a slightly edited version of the movie. Indeed, TWC apparently has an edited version ready, but has not submitted it.

- Instead, TWC has chosen to generate public outcry about the "R" rating in the successful effort to secure significant free media for the movie.

- TWC has also threatened to not support the rating system any more, and to release all its future movies unrated.

- In response to that threat, I sent Harvey Weinstein a letter praising him for releasing the movie "Bully", encouraging him not to release future movies unrated, and letting him know that NATO would encourage exhibitors to treat unrated Weinstein Company films as they do any other unrated film – which in many cases is as if they were rated NC-17.

- TWC released the letter publicly with a press release that substantially misrepresented what the letter said, to create additional free media.

- It is possible that TWC will still submit an edited version of the movie and receive a PG-13 rating. It is also possible that TWC will release "Bully" unrated.

- If TWC releases the movie unrated, I urge NATO members who opt to play it to treat the movie as an "R" rated movie, given the fact that the ratings board assigned the movie that rating.

- The integrity and voluntary nature of the rating system is, to me, more important than any single debate about a rating for a particular movie, even a movie as important as this one.

- Were the MPAA and NATO to ignore our rules because of the merits of this movie, we would become censors in our own right, deciding which movies have merit and which don't. That would be a very dangerous slippery slope.

- Harvey Weinstein knows the rules. TWC released "King's Speech" just one year ago, and encountered the same issue of an "R" rating for language.

- In response to the concerns of TWC and other distributors about the language rules of the rating system, the MPAA conducted a comprehensive survey of American parents on various aspects of the rating system. Overwhelmingly, the parents indicated that movies with language like that contained in "Bully" should be assigned an "R" rating. In other words, contrary to the desire of Harvey Weinstein, parents indicated that the ratings rules in CARA are too weak, not too strong.

- If TWC refuses to submit an edited version of the movie, the "R" rating will stand. If TWC then releases the movie unrated, that release will present a highly public attack on the legitimacy of the rating system.

- The rating system protects the First Amendment freedoms of distributors like Harvey Weinstein, and exhibitors like you. If the industry ignores the rating system, we give policy-makers at the federal and state levels the opening to create legal mandates.

- I urge you to respect the voluntary rating system.

Thank you.

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quote:

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- The rating system protects the First Amendment freedoms of distributors like Harvey Weinstein,

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quote: Martin McCaffery

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The MPAA does have a big lobbying pot of money that can be used to try to stop any new laws

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quote: Martin McCaffery

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The ratings have ZERO legal basis or effect.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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If the ratings system disappeared, it would literally be milliseconds before a horde of do-gooders started storming D.C. with demands for some kind of laws to keep those horrible moviemakers from poisoning the minds of the children.

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quote: Martin McCaffery

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Furthermore, any DA in any podunk town or otherwise can go after any movie he/she wants to regardless of the ratings.

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quote: Martin McCaffery

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You don't see the do-gooders passing laws against what's on cable TV which has zero external "enforcement."

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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If the ratings were codified

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quote: Justin Hamaker

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With so much at stake from the outcome of these surveys, they really should be designed and conducted by neutral third parties to avoid any perception of bias.

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I suspect the bias is among some of those in this business who apparent believe because they use such language EVERYONE uses such language and it is therefore acceptable. I'm here to tell you that I have walked this planet for nearly 80 years, I have known many people in this and other businesses and have a very large family. Very few people I have known used the "f" word, the "S" word or any other foul or vulgar language and the use of such language is not socially acceptable. It also has caused me to believe those who use such language do not know enough about their native tongue to express themselves without being vulgar. As Hollywood has pushed the envelope since the late sixties to get such language and nude sex scenes on the commercial screen it has apparently desensitized to such language and such scenes many who patronize such films and many who have come into our business since then.
 

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Posted by Kevin Fairchild (Member # 4985) on 03-16-2012, 02:50 AM:
 
I haven't read the MLAs with the studios lately but I know of at least one major that requires you to follow the MPAAs ratings when showing its pictures.
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 03-16-2012, 08:51 AM:
 
Mike: The lawsuit situation you describe has already happened, despite the ratings. Remember Natural Born Killers?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1217642.stm

As for responsible theatre managers, it's been about 30 years since I asked one, but most of the kids managing the chain theatres I used to talk to didn't have a clue that it wasn't a law. That's how I first got started on this rant, so many managers I knew said it was the law and told customers it was the law. And the MPAA/NATO do nothing to dissuade them from doing so.

As for cable TV, yes, they have their own rating system, the point is they don't "enforce" it. It truly is advisory.

Going back to your original post and title of this thread, maybe we've discovered why there is such a hub-bub over Bully
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-16-2012, 11:08 AM:
 

quote: Martin McCaffery

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yes, they have their own rating system, the point is they don't "enforce" it. It truly is advisory.

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quote: Robert E. Allen

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Very few people I have known used the "f" word, the "S" word or any other foul or vulgar language and the use of such language is not socially acceptable. It also has caused me to believe those who use such language do not know enough about their native tongue to express themselves without being vulgar. As Hollywood has pushed the envelope since the late sixties to get such language and nude sex scenes on the commercial screen it has apparently desensitized to such language and such scenes many who patronize such films and many who have come into our business since then.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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And why they'll bleep out the word "hole" but leave "ass" has always been a mystery to me.

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quote: Martin McCaffery

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That's how I first got started on this rant, so many managers I knew said it was the law and told customers it was the law. And the MPAA/NATO do nothing to dissuade them from doing so.

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quote: Mike Frese

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Pay Cable: A lot great stuff if being made on these channels and much of hollywood's great talent is making it there. One of many significant reasons for declining theater attendance. I guess most adults to not care too much do they.

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quote: Edward Havens

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Which of Hollywood's "great" talents have shunned movies for cable television? Mike Nichols made two great movies for cable, nine and eleven years ago. One could have been a feature film, probably distributed by Miramax, but the other was simply too big a project for one feature film. Speaking of the latter project, that did star Al Pacino, who also did a cable movie with Barry Levinson two years ago, but a feature film about Jack Kevorkian was never going to be a feature film anyway.
Hollywood's great talents aren't shunning feature films for cable. They are making movies for cable that would have never been features to begin with, and then they are going right back to features. Cable's biggest talents, like David Chase, David Milch, Matthew Weiner and Larry David, were never features guys. They were and still are television guys who left network television for pay cable, in order to make the shows they wanted to make.

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quote: Jonathan Goeldner

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^ there are many movies that go without a rating - to automatically assume it's only viewable by over 18 year olds, is just presumptious and dumb. 'Gunner Palace' had a high quotent of expletives and got it's PG-13 on appeal, there is no reason why that movie can be rated PG-13 and 'Bully' not to be rated as such either. I'm glad Harvey released this unrated - how ironic the MPAA can bully a bigwhig like him and he in return, does a "ef' you too".

@ Mike Frese: but even the pay cable studios can enforce censorship - Showtime did it with the Master of Horror series, they cut Dario Argento's 'Jenifer' but not allowing to show simulated oral sex and a severed penis - they also didn't air the most extreme feature by Takishi Miike: 'Imprint'

Starz cut most of all the male frontal nudity from the Spartacus series.

'American Horror Story' violence was pretty hardcore matching what was featured on 'The Walking Dead'

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quote:

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@ Mike Frese: but even the pay cable studios can enforce censorship - Showtime did it with the Master of Horror series, they cut Dario Argento's 'Jenifer' but not allowing to show simulated oral sex and a severed penis - they also didn't air the most extreme feature by Takishi Miike: 'Imprint'

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quote:

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The MPAA successfully bullies Bully into being released unrated

By Sean O'Neal March 26, 2012
After several weeks of the MPAA essentially sitting on Bully, slapping the documentary with its own hands, and saying, “Stop censoring yourself, stop censoring yourself,” The Weinstein Company has opted to give up on its quest for a PG-13 and release the film unrated—which is sort of the equivalent of just pulling their kid out of gym class. Or not really, we guess, as the Weinsteins’ decision was born of necessity rather than cowardice or noogies: As previously reported, the MPAA refused to budge on its R rating for Bully’s excessive profanity, hoping to spare young people from being exposed to the harmful foul language that they themselves were filmed saying.
And despite a campaign by Harvey Weinstein, director Lee Hirsch, and one of the film’s subjects to lower the rating, thereby allowing Bully to reach the very teens it’s about, the MPAA ultimately overruled their appeal by one vote, leaving it up to the theaters as to whether they want to expose innocent children to the horrible behavior of innocent children. “We believe theater owners everywhere will step up and do what’s right for the benefit of all of the children out there who have been bullied or may have otherwise become bullies themselves,” The Weinstein Company’s Stephen Bruno said in a statement, presumably while holding theater owners’ homework over a sewer grate.

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quote: Joe Redifer

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So is Bully really as super-hyper-mega important as people on Facebook are making it out to be? People are saying that this film MUST be seen by everyone on the planet. School kids NEED to watch this IMMEDIATELY or they may die. Is this movie truly the most important thing in all of humanity?

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I keep wondering this, too! I have told the parents in my town that we can work together to let kids see it no matter the rating, but I keep thinking, yeah, but what if it sucks? I think all kids know that there is a thing called bullying. I don't know if we need another 2 hours of someone telling them there is a thing called bullying. I hope it has some other point too, and preferably beyond "there is bullying and it's mean!"
 

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 03-27-2012, 10:23 AM:
 
so will theaters that are part of NATO have to accept President John Fithian overall opinion that all "unrated" are evil... oops I mean NC-17 in content? and not accept children under 17 regardless if they are accompanied by a parent of guardian. Jeesh talk about bullying er, pressure there...
 

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Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 03-27-2012, 11:09 AM:
 

quote: Jonathan Goeldner

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and Robert who are you to judge what footage is pertinent to quality or for the sake of the story, you're not the filmmaker - you are falling in the same boat as the MPAA rating's board - the scenes from Jenifer were meant to be extreme and revolting, for Showtime to say 'oh no, now that's too crossing the line' or "oh we won't play the feature because it's pro-abortion" is equally the same game the MPAA plays with films they don't like.

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quote: Robert E. Allen

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Well Jon, who is the director to tell me I need to see or hear that garbage in order to enjoy the film? In the last house I managed I told my booker "no R rated films" and did excellent business without them.

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quote: Joe Redifer

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So is Bully really as super-hyper-mega important as people on Facebook are making it out to be? People are saying that this film MUST be seen by everyone on the planet. School kids NEED to watch this IMMEDIATELY or they may die. Is this movie truly the most important thing in all of humanity?

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quote:

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I keep wondering this, too! I have told the parents in my town that we can work together to let kids see it no matter the rating, but I keep thinking, yeah, but what if it sucks? I think all kids know that there is a thing called bullying. I don't know if we need another 2 hours of someone telling them there is a thing called bullying. I hope it has some other point too, and preferably beyond "there is bullying and it's mean!"

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quote: Randy Stankey

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It's the exact same tactic that Universal hired women to dress up as nuns and protest at theaters that showed "The Last Temptation of Christ" and all the people are falling for it...

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Well, as the only theatre in the State of AL to show Last Temptation, I can tell you the picketers here were real. Where did you hear the thing about the nuns? I have never heard that even in the right wing christian books about the controversy.

And in this town anyway, the Catholic church supported our showing the movie (it is a VERY catholic movie)

[may have just crossed the no religion or politics Rudicon here]

As to your larger point, Yes, I am constantly telling my audience not to get their history from movies. Based on a true story means fiction.

But let's not give Disney all the grief for fake documentaries. Nanook of the North, the first BIG doc, was faked. As were newsreels going back to the San Francisco earthquake and both world wars. The concept of unfaked docs basically was created by the verite movement, which obviously did not drive out the fakery from docs.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-27-2012, 02:02 PM:
 
You might be right.

"Last Temptation" came out when I was living in Boston. It was playing at the Cheri theater. (Now defunct, I believe.)

I saw that movie at the Cheri because of the nuns. When I went to the theater and made a comment about the protest, the person inside made a comment to the effect that they were hired.

Maybe they weren't hired. I only believed what I was told, assuming it was true. Even it it wasn't a put-on, it still could be part of a whispering campaign similar to what's going on with Bully.

No, I don't give Disney all the credit for faking movies. That's the point. Movies are widely dummied up. Even the ones that purport to be real. "White Wilderness" is just a prime example because it has become legendary. I agree that "Nanook" is another legendary example. I just didn't think of that one. The Disney movie is more in my time frame. "Nanook" was made in the 1920's.

I think it's weird how people think movies are real. All the time, when I was growing up, my parents constantly taught me that they aren't real. I learned photography and home movie making from my father. I ran the 8mm home movie projector for my Dad after he filmed them. I was in A.V. club and stage crew all through school.

It was very clear to me that movies and television are verisimiltude, not verite.

Can movies teach us lessons by example of the characters in them? Yes, but that doesn't mean we should take them as gospel. Teaching by parable is not the same as real life.

It just seems strange to me that people don't understand this.
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 03-27-2012, 02:18 PM:
 
I sure as hell wouldn't put it past a theatre to hire some fake nuns, especially in Boston
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-27-2012, 05:51 PM:
 

quote: Robert E. Allen

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In the last house I managed I told my booker "no R rated films" and did excellent business without them.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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Just because a movie is rated R doesn't make it a bad movie.

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quote:

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WASHINGTON, DC – The Weinstein Company has announced that “Bully,” the award-winning documentary about the epidemic of school bullying in the United States, will open in theaters on March 30 as “unrated” after nearly 500,000 people signed an extraordinarily popular online petition at Change.org demanding that the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) remove the “R” rating initially given to the movie by the MPAA’s ratings board.

“I am happy ‘Bully’ will maintain its authenticity and will bully-documentarybe an accurate portrayal of what thousands of kids experience every day,” said Katy Butler, a bullied high school student from Michigan who was outraged that the MPAA gave “Bully” an “R” rating by just one vote because of brief language. Butler, who had her finger broken by bullies in middle school, urged the MPAA to remove the “R” rating from “Bully” so that middle school and high school students would have a chance to see a movie that could potentially save their lives.

“The MPAA might not recognize the reality that thousands of bullied kids face each day in school, but nearly 500,000 people around the country, from celebrities to politicians to bullied kids themselves, stepped up to speak out about bullying by signing my petition,” said Butler. “The brief use of explicit language in this film reflects what so many kids hear each day in school when they’re being bullied. The MPAA said they wouldn’t drop the ‘R’ rating unless this language was removed, but nothing can remove it from the halls and playgrounds of schools where bullied students hear it each day, except education and exposure.”

Lee Hirsch, director of “Bully,” said that the “unrated” designation for the film will allow the film to portray the real trauma and torment that bullied students experience each day in school.

“The small amount of language in the film that’s responsible for the ‘R’ rating is there because it’s real. It’s what the children who are victims of bullying face on most days,” Hirsch said in a statement put out by The Weinstein Company announcing the “unrated” designation. “All of our supporters see that, and we’re grateful for the support we’ve received across the board. I know the kids will come, so it’s up to the theaters to let them in.”

Gerry Lopez, the CEO of AMC Theaters, one of the largest movie theater chains in the world, signed Katy Butler’s Change.org petition. He said previously in a statement that he will make sure “Bully” plays at AMC Theaters even with an “unrated” rating.

“AMC will show this movie, and we invite our guests to engage in the dialogue its relevant message will inevitably provoke,” Lopez said.

Lopez is just one of several high profile individuals who signed Butler’s campaign on Change.org. Ellen DeGeneres signed the petition, inviting Butler to appear on her show and urging her viewers to support the petition, and Anderson Cooper, Kelly Ripa, Justin Bieber, Johnny Depp, Meryl Streep, Michael Jordan, Demi Lovato, Randy Jackson, and Drew Brees all encouraged their fans to show support to “Bully,” objecting to the “R” rating it received.

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quote: Jonathan Goeldner

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whatever, people who want to sugarcoat life, sanitize and censor things, conform to standards that suit themselves are living in a bubble anyway...

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quote:

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I know the kids will come

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Maybe the straight A students but I doubt the kids who get in trouble all of the time will. (Is this as much a movie to help kids who are getting bullied??) The parents of these bad kids will not be going either.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-27-2012, 10:01 PM:
 
If it's a movie "the kids" want to see, they'll find a way to see it. Well, they'll probably watch illegally-downloaded copies, but they'll get the message. (Which is the important thing, not the money. Right, Harvey?)
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-27-2012, 10:28 PM:
 

quote: Robert E. Allen

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you can't say or show me anything I haven't already seen or heard.

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quote:

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whatever, people ... sugarcoat life, sanitize and censor things, ...et.al

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quote: Joe Redifer

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Please please please don't say things like this. There are many things that I have happened upon during internet browsing that I really wish I could un-see. There is PLENTY that can be shown to you that you had no idea was out there. Want to watch a real time-lapse of a murdered human corpse decaying in the woods? And let's not forget "Rule 34 of the internet" which states that if it exists, there is porn of it. Yup, porn of any conceivable thing. Two Star Wars AT-ATs going at it? You bet.

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quote:

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I worked for Seattle IA local at two "adult" theatres

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quote: Monte L Fullmer

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A little "ballsy" to make that statement!

Do you think that you're better than those who may live in those so-called "bubbles" just because they won't step down to your level of life..and you're not mature enough to accept their level of life?

(Not to flame, but this one got me a bit here...)

C'on, let's be a little fair with this since these people are being fair with you in your decision of what you want to do with your life....by leaving you alone. So, show a little fairness and leave them alone.

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quote:

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Report: Harvey Weinstein Plans PG-13 Bully Edit
By Kyle Buchanan

Try to act surprised: After milking his ratings battle with the MPAA for everything it was worth, the LA Times is reporting that Harvey Weinstein has readied a PG-13 theatrical cut of his new documentary, Bully. Weinstein has spent the last several weeks blasting the MPAA for slapping Bully with an R-rating over several f-bombs, a high-profile crusade that may have diminished the point of the documentary but at least provided a hook for enlisting celebrities to fight on behalf of his film. The re-rated cut will hit theaters on April 13 (the current version, which is going out unrated, debuted in Los Angeles and New York today) and recalls Weinstein's attempt to goose the grosses of The King's Speech last year by replacing the R-rated Best Picture winner with a PG-13 cut. That revision failed to crack the top ten at the box office and earned Weinstein the enmity of his Oscar-winning director, Tom Hooper, and star, Colin Firth.

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