Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: CinemaCon sound: Why does it have to be so FREAKING loud?

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-26-2012, 02:58 AM:

It is 12:30am as I am typing this and my ears are still ringing from the Sony presentation which was held this afternoon at CinemaCon.

The sound system installed for the convention is undeniably amazing. The bass it produces can rattle the concrete foundation of the building. But why the hell do they feel the need to play movie trailers at beyond rock-concert volume?

Seriously, voices were so loud that it was sometimes hard to understand what was being said. The non-stop action, battle and explosion scenes have blurred into one. Distortion is rampant. It's borderline painful.

Now to qualify myself here, I'm a person who loves good loud sound. I get in my vehicle and crank it up to the max. Rock concerts -- I'm there, LOVE good loud sound. But movies should be played at a volume where the dialogue sounds decent, and in every single product reel we've seen thus far the dialogue has just been overly loud, far beyond the threshold of "normal," which means the action scenes are SUPREMELY loud.

When you add in the fact that every trailer (even the chick-flick ones) consists of scene after scene after scene where the slightest "thing" happening on screen, from a car crash to a door closing, is punctuated by a huge BOOOOM in the soundtrack, and almost every cut is two seconds or less in length, the whole thing just becomes a mind-numbing mess.

I literally can remember almost nothing about the trailers we've seen over the past couple of days. Probably not the results they were going for.

As long as I'm ranting about sound, I would also like to ask: What is the deal with "dance" music? Every party, every screening, EVERYTHING here is preceded or followed (or in the case of the parties, wallpapered) with wall-to-wall Lady Gaga or the like. Here again, I love me some good music. Love it loud. Love it REALLY LOUD. But not while trying to converse, network, or "think." At Disney's "dinner" last night, they played the soundtrack from "Brave" which was also too loud, not to mention being lousy party/dinner music, but it least it didn't have the constant BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM of other events we've been to so far.

I know the whole thing is meant to excite, inspire or "pump up" the folks but we have one day to go and I'm just feeling numb. (Maybe I should stop by this bar in the casino.)

If any of you guys "in the know" can tell me why the convention feels it necessary to play movie trailers far louder than any theater should ever play them, I would love to be enlightened.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 04-26-2012, 09:33 AM:

The client sets the level.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 04-26-2012, 12:08 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
I know the whole thing is meant to excite, inspire or "pump up" the folks but we have one day to go and I'm just feeling numb

Inasmuch as the purpose of the event is to sell you stuff, maybe they are just softening you up for the kill [evil]

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 04-26-2012, 01:28 PM:

Also this year, I think Russell Allen is not there to tune and ride the room (the Colosseum). Don't know who has that duty this year.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-26-2012, 06:47 PM:

quote: Jeffry L. Johnson
The client sets the level.

Well I assumed that. The client(s) must all need to have the wax cleaned out of their ear canals.

At least the preshow music today at the Fox and Universal presentations was good movie music, rather than a top 40 dance-a-thon.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-26-2012, 09:52 PM:

The fact is they don't know much about sound. They probably had a shitty EQ. If the trailers were loud but the rest wasn't so bad, then they simply adjusted the volume for the feature. They were too stupid to realize that trailers are much, much, much louder. Please complain to them. Only complaining to us won't let them know how shitty they are.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-27-2012, 01:45 AM:

Mixers often forget the playback volume is every bit as important as the mix. Moreso than anything else though, I find typically whoever is there sweating it out because he/she is trying to impress the audience wants it turned up, and it is their nervousness urging them that it isn't loud enough.

In 99% of these situations it is the director responsible, but even at a private show of the Dolby Atmos it happened (and it makes sense since they were the ones nervous wanting to make sure everyone was impressed). When we entered, an Atmos mix of a rainstorm was playing. It would have been 100% convincing had it been played half a dozen db lower. Instead someone went for the fader deciding "louder is better". As it was, since the volume was a little bit louder than reality (due to the distance of the thunderstorm and rain falling above), it wasn't as effective.

EQ is also really important. Whoever was on the controls of the Barco demo at the pool needs to understand "more presence is NOT better". The first minute was WAY too shrieky.

Regardless, louder is not always better. There IS a sweet spot.

(Disclaimer - Dolby Atmos is going to be the best thing to ever happen to cinema sound and Barco's demo was spectacular. I only used those as examples because they were in my most recent memory.)

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 04-27-2012, 02:22 AM:

Forgive me for not knowing exactly how EQing a house works, but aren't there standards to be followed? I mean, why is there such a wide variety of EQing jobs being done out there, even within the same multiplex. Why can't anyone seem to get this right anymore. I haven't heard a great EQ since I saw the Dark Knight in the Loewe's auditorium in NYC in 2008. The Chinese sounded nice, but alas, the room is a bit live.

AJG

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-27-2012, 02:58 AM:

I blame a lot of it on digital cinema. In the days of film, a (good) sound tech would get their hands on a leftover reject reel or two that the distributor never picked up that had a good sound mix and claim it for their tool kit. After watching the reel many times in a properly calibrated auditorium, a good sound tech can in a sense memorize how each bit of sound in the reel SHOULD sound. Then after each EQ is performed with their test equipment, the reel could be ran a couple of times to make sure everything sounded right. I have probably ran my reel a couple thousand times and when I have it I can make an entire complex sound exactly the same from room to room. Without it only using the D2 or other pieces of audio, there will be differences. My reel is however made up of a dozen different clips of varying content and I know how every little nuance is supposed to sound.

In digital, there is such a tissy over piracy that this is not possible. Techs are left with checking their work on trailers and sound logos, of which are massively over-produced and designed to sound great in all sort of not-so-great sound systems. Rarely are there stretches of well recorded dialogue either without extraneous explosions and music, as that is critical.

Regardless, people are calibrating to the meter (or letting the machine self-EQ) and calling it great sound. This usually ends up in OVER-EQing. [Frown]

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 04-27-2012, 02:10 PM:

That makes a lot of sense Brad...and it sounds like what I've done at home over the years when I get new gear or change places of living. I've always said any tech that relies solely on the measurements and not real world testing is fully doing their job.

By the way, I'd be curious to know what was on your test reel.

AJG

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 04-27-2012, 02:28 PM:

An eldery retired projection tech I know used reel 2 of Empire Strikes Back when he was installing Dolby systems back in the 80's

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 04-27-2012, 02:36 PM:

Reel 2 of Empire has some great sound!

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 04-27-2012, 03:37 PM:

One of my test reels is all trailers, including the General Cinema "Space Candy" policy and the first Ultra*Stereo snipe (which is a great wow and flutter test). One trailer in particular has proven very handy as a test....for the British film "Beautiful Thing". If the room is not spot-on in EQ you cannot understand all the British accents.

Other trailers include a "Twelfth Night" trailer with a very marginal Dolby Digital track (on a perfectly calibrated reader it will read 6's at best, on anything else it's so much F's that the sound freaks out) and a Jurassic park trailer where the jeep rolls off the side of the screen, I play that in SR to check channel placement and levels.

I have the "Dolby Surround Fanfare" (the early one that doesn't say DOLBY SR in the tag.) Anyone know where I can get the later one that was SR (and SRD?)

I also have random other test film reels which I will not disclose publicly, I can say I have the "Buzz and Bill Show" DTS reel.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 04-27-2012, 05:53 PM:

Tony, Compudigital Industries is selling the Dolby cat. 451 "Mancini" Dolby fanfare SRD (Flat) logo for $28.00 . They have a listing over on ebay.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 04-27-2012, 07:04 PM:

Is that trailer still available from Dolby?

AJG

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-28-2012, 08:35 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
If the trailers were loud but the rest wasn't so bad, then they simply adjusted the volume for the feature. They were too stupid to realize that trailers are much, much, much louder. Please complain to them. Only complaining to us won't let them know how shitty they are.

There was only one screening, and it was a dialogue-driven film ("What to Expect When You're Expecting") and I don't remember it being particularly loud, so you're probably right that they used the same setting for everything.

I do intend to write a note to the convention with this and a few other comments and suggestions, but I don't expect any action on the sound issue...I can't be the only one who ever thought it was too loud, but I remember the same problem existed the first time I went to ShoWest, which was in 1995. At the time, I blamed the problem on the fact that it was in a convention room, rather than a real theater.

But this particular venue should be the best motion picture setup ever deployed, so the nonsensical volume levels were a severe disappointment this year AND last year. (I didn't go to ShoWest after '95.)

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 04-28-2012, 09:46 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
I can't be the only one who ever thought it was too loud

I attended a screening of 21 in 2008 which was so painfully loud that someone shouted out "turn it down!" between previews, to agreement from the rest of the audience. They did not turn it down.

Posted by Larry Zuverink (Member # 1483) on 04-28-2012, 10:57 PM:

Mike,
I totally agree. It was ridiculously loud. My ears rang for a couple hours after it. You would think they would want better sound.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-04-2012, 02:31 PM:

Brad is right, it was easy to find a reel of film to be used for testing.
That's why I made my own test DCPs from Blu Rays - not the entire film, just clips.
I know, Blu Rays are often remixed/modified for Home Theatres, but I think it's much better to use a BD (extracting the uncompressed audio of course) rather than trailers, which are often very misleading.
My reference reel is useless now, and this is - for now - the only viable solution I found.
And again: if your tech leaves without trying the sound system thoroughly, he's not a good tech.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-04-2012, 04:37 PM:

The only people I've seen actually give a critical listen after tuning a sound system are myself and, of course, Brad. Most of the rest I've seen just tune it and then "bye!" At most they'll pop in, listen to about 5 to 10 seconds of a movie with an audience in it, come back up to the booth, adjust the volume knob downward and then leave.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-04-2012, 04:50 PM:

I don't doubt it. Let me guess, most of the time the "tech" had stuck his single mike in the "dolby" position, equalised the curve like a ruler - pretending the rest of the auditorium has the same response! - and then walked away? [Smile]

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 05-04-2012, 05:20 PM:

I have been to 2 Imax theaters recently.One was a Liemax.In both cases the sound was good except for the dialogue.When anyone raised their voice or God forbid SHOUTED! It displayed an unpleasant ringing in the upper mid or lower treble.
It's like both theaters had the same issue,one was a bit loud but not the other.Is this caused by the eq?
What frequency knob on a cat64b for example would cure this?
The Imax at the Henry Ford Museum did not have this issue and it was plenty loud and awesome!

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-23-2013, 10:01 PM:

Update:

We did not go to CinemaCon this year but our booker did. He said they had installed Dolby Atmos into the Colosseum, and had a total of 490,000 watts of amplifier power. (I don't know where he got that figure.)

He said from his position near the back of the room, the trailers were so ridiculously loud that it was painful at times. His business partner sat in the 12th row from the front at one product reel and said he had to cover his ears the whole time due to the deafening sound level.

After hearing that, if we go next year I will be packing a supply of earplugs. I did send in a list of suggestions after last year's convention, one of which was to lower the sound volume but of course got no response.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-24-2013, 01:11 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
I also have random other test film reels

Jiffy?

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 04-24-2013, 01:22 PM:

Sean: Yes I have two copies of the Jiffy test reel...one where the SR track is a bit scratchy and one essentially brand-new copy. The other reels are of prints and like I said I will not disclose publicly what they are.

quote: Bill Gabel
Tony, Compudigital Industries is selling the Dolby cat. 451 "Mancini" Dolby fanfare SRD (Flat) logo for $28.00 . They have a listing over on ebay.

Bill, a very belated thank you as I have ordered and now have the new Mancini Trailer.

quote: Aaron Garman
Is that trailer still available from Dolby?

AJG

Aaron: Order it from eBay, it will be cheaper than Dolby. [Smile]

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-24-2013, 06:34 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
490,000 watts

That would be close to 0.5 MWatts, if that's really true, I don't even want to get close to that theater, what's its purpose? Instant eardrum incineration? MegaWatts are usually something you use when describing the output of a power plant, the power usage during a Superbowl Half-Time show or decently sized data center...

What's up with this over-compressed, super-loud stuff anyway? Sure, I do love it when you can feel an explosion in your bones, but I don't like the fact that PEOPLE ARE SCREAMING AT ME the whole *** movie. All current digital formats offer a tremendous dynamic range, use it wisely...

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-24-2013, 08:27 PM:

It's because they play trailers, which are mixed balls-to-the-wall despite the (failed) NATO trailer volume initiative.

I've tried playing trailers at 7 here and it's just way too obnoxiously loud. We play the trailer reel at 3.8 generally.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 04-25-2013, 08:35 AM:

I've been hunting for a "Jiffy" test reel for ages...

I've also been hunting for the Dolby A THX Demo reel that Lucusfilm produced in the 1980's, with clips from all their films up though Willow.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-25-2013, 04:53 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
I've tried playing trailers at 7 here and it's just way too obnoxiously loud. We play the trailer reel at 3.8 generally.

Yeah, trailers are just like radio and TV ads. Seemingly you need to be loud, or else you will not get noticed...

But it's not just trailers, it is also many of those new so-called *special* experiences like Digital IMAX and the venues that are using Dolby Atmos that push it way to far.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-26-2013, 08:20 AM:

This is the dreaded "worst case scenario."

Live room (they all are in convention facilities)

Over eq'ed like Brad said. (I have NEVER seen an automated eq that is right, not even Dolby's)

Audio brain trust at dolby retired.

20 db desensitation due to cocaine.

Screechy, dialog not articulate, and harsh; they got it all. louis

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 04-26-2013, 11:56 AM:

Yeesh. What does it say about the industry when it's biggest convention has awful sound?

That doesn't give me a lot of hope.

AJG

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-26-2013, 03:58 PM:

And trailer mix jobs. The final deadly ingredient.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-26-2013, 05:42 PM:

Hard to believe there is no one on location to complain to.

As they built the system in for the event, they will quite obviously do a quick reference to Level 7, then don't care about the trailer levels anymore, and with the system having more than enough balls to kill, it will naturally do so.

Since we went digital, we play trailers lower than in 35mm (4.5), and features louder (6.0). Trailers at 7. Ouch.

- Carsten

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-27-2013, 02:27 AM:

Were they selling anything or just showing trailers for fun?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-27-2013, 05:25 AM:

They were selling earplugs I think.

- Carsten

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-27-2013, 09:46 AM:

There used to be a video copy of the jiffy reel on you tube. I wanted to show my fiancé what I was talking about she used to work in theaters (that's where we met) but I could not find it again. Does anyone know where I can find it or if maybe Dolby made them take it down?