quote: Mark J. Marshall

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After moving about a few hundred feet the plane completely lost power. Engines, lights, a/c, the safety video, everything shut down and we rolled to a stop.

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At least that is what it appeared to you. You could say 'it lost power'. You could as well say 'the power got switched off'. Maybe that makes a difference. Maybe you can communicate your fears to the airline, airport, or FAA and they might come up with an explanation of what really hapenned during that incident.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 5226) on 05-15-2012, 04:53 AM:
 
Well, if things are going to shut down at least you were on the ground kidding aside flying is safe. I was in a B747-400 at Gatwick that did a similar thing just before push back, only thing going in the semi-darkness was emergency lights. I was surprised they were not using the APU, however the pilot did say later on, sorry about that folks "power surge" from the terminal stuffed things up, we soon got going and it flew 27 hours all the way to NZ with no more problems.

The only flight I have been on that made me a bit uneasy was on a Pan American 707 late at night desending through a tropical rain storm at "Pago Pago" in 1975, one year after they lost a 707 on the same approach. The old 707 was being thrown around a bit, the doors to the cockpit were opening and closing "banging away" and as passengers sitting up front we could watch the pilots doing there thing with the controls. The descent in the darkness seemed to go on forever. They broke through the cloud base just above the sea, a quick "crank it round" steep turn and before we new it were on the ground, much to the relief of everyone. So there you have it, the pilots new what they were doing, they got home safely and so did we, thank goodness.

I spent most of my working life around aircraft and when you think of the number of aircraft flying at any one time it really is a safe way to get from A to B.

If you want to read about engines shutting down, read "All Four Engines Have Failed" written by Betty Tootell. Its about British Aiways 747 Flight BA009 London to Auckland in 1982 which flew into volcanic ash late at night high over Java. Its a very interesting story and it does say a lot for those Rolls Royce engines, that after taking such a hard time the crew managed to re-start them.

Graham.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-15-2012, 05:51 AM:
 
They didn't make an announcement after the power failure? Even if the actual event were a nonissue, that seems like pretty bad form to not tell the passengers what happened. Especially on a 757, which is a highly computerized aircraft.

The closest thing that happened to me was a particularly long line waiting for takeoff, when the pilot decided to shut down one of the engines to save fuel. In a 737, this causes the lights to go off on one side of the plane. He did explain what he was doing, what would happen, and why. I was told later by another pilot that some planes (notably the 727, which has a flight engineer to keep the engines in phase with each other (?)) have the ability to have any combination of engine(s) power any combination of electrical devices, while others like the 737 do not. Apparently, this was just a design issue that was done to make thing simpler for an aircraft with a two-man cockpit. Maybe someone can comment on whether this has changed with the newer-model 737s.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-15-2012, 08:17 AM:
 

quote: Mark J. Marshall

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After moving about a few hundred feet the plane completely lost power. Engines, lights, a/c, the safety video, everything shut down and we rolled to a stop.

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Sounds like the pilot had to stop to reboot Windows.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-15-2012, 09:18 AM:
 
I think you should write a letter and ask the airline to explain it. Tell them the flight number, date, airport, and itinerary of the flight. There ought to be a log of something like this happening, I'd think. If you don't hear back from them, send a copy of the same letter to the FAA.

And of course be sure to tell us all what you hear. Interesting event!

Also kind of interesting to contemplate what would have happened if you had popped the exit!
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 05-15-2012, 10:17 AM:
 
Mark, please post the name of the airline, the flight number, the date and time of day (day or night) of the occurrence, and the airport where this occurrence took place. Then people can do some searching to see if there's at least any blog posts or tweets or aviation forum posts mentioning anything like this.

Not to doubt your description of the event Mark, but you do admit to being a nervous flyer. It's possible your perceptions of what stopped working on that aircraft were affected by your rattled state at the moment. I have to say I've never heard of such a thing happening on a 757. Loss of all electrics visible to you in the cabin, yes; loss of all electrics period, yes; loss of both engines on the ground, yes; loss of the APU, yes; loss of all these things simultaneously... not bloody likely.

No properly trained and experienced flight deck crew would accept an aircraft that they felt wasn't ready to fly, especially when they're still on the ground at the departure airport.

Throw us a few clues and the committee of F-T experts on Boeing 757 operations and systems will convene...
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 05-15-2012, 11:38 AM:
 
American Airlines flight 1046 from Tulsa to Dallas Fort Worth. Departed May 14th from gate 25 at Tulsa International. Supposed to depart at 3:20 PM but the plane was late getting in due to "maintenance" apparently from what I heard while sitting at the gate. We left at around 3:45-ish I think.

And trust me, I may be a nervous flier, but the lights in the cabin, the air flow from the little air vent over my head, the engines, the video monitors, ALL sounds coming from the plane stopped and we rolled to a dead silent stop with the emergency lights on in the cabin, and that is all.

What is so strange about this in my mind is this... let's just say that the pilot did need to shut down for some reason, make a change and start up again. I would THINK that the pilot would brake the plane to a stop first. THEN power down and back up. That's not what happened here. We went dark, and rolled silently to a stop.

And yes, an announcement to the passengers letting us know if everything was ok or not would have been a wonderful thing. So all things considered, if this was routine, although a bit odd, this Airline and captain FAILED miserably when it comes to customer service.

A guy behind me described it like this: "I've been on thousands of flights and I've never had a plane un-start."
 

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Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 05-15-2012, 01:54 PM:
 
You know that scene in "Airplane!" where Johnny unplugs the runway lights and snickers "Just kidding!" at the camera before plugging them back in?

That's probably what happened.

Seriously, though...Amazing as it sounds, the flight crew has no more interest in dying than you do. If they couldn't explain the problem to themselves, they would not have taken off.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 05-15-2012, 02:13 PM:
 
I totally understand that, and I appreciate that they would not have taken off if it wasn't 100% safe. I'm just looking for what it could have been, because it sure felt bad sitting there.
 

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Posted by David M. Leugers (Member # 2968) on 05-18-2012, 08:24 PM:
 
Typically a two-engined plane like a 737 when running on one engine will unload electrical loads to prevent an overload on the one remaining generator which could shear the shaft of the generator rendering it totally inop. The 727 has three generators and any two can completely power the aircraft's electrical load.

I suspect that the 757 had a possible delay in take-off time maybe due to traffic and the fact it was late off schedule. The shutting down of the engines must have been on purpose - can you imagine a flight irregularity report saying "both engines quit for unknown reasons, got restarted and continued on"? A mechanical issue of that magnitude would have required a log book entry with maintenance sign-off before further flight. Both pilots would have lost their jobs over it. It was on purpose, but why? FUEL. The plane burns about as much fuel taxiing as it does at cruise flight. I was on a TWA flight on a B727 in 1998 and the crew did the same thing. After about 30 minutes they grumbled over the PA we were on a weather hold...
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 05-21-2012, 12:59 PM:
 

quote: David M. Leugers

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It was on purpose, but why? FUEL. The plane burns about as much fuel taxiing as it does at cruise flight. I was on a TWA flight on a B727 in 1998 and the crew did the same thing.

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Did your pilots cut the engines (and lights and A/C in the cabin and switch on the emergency lights) while you were rolling on the ground just after pushing back from the gate... and then allow the plane to roll to a stop with the engines off and only the emergency lights on? And just sit there in the way of all of the other planes?

Also we were already running late and were trying to catch up on time. Everything was only off for a couple of minutes.
 

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Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 05-21-2012, 01:14 PM:
 
I've been on more that one flight where the pilot shut down the engines for a delay, BUT there was definitely an announcement letting us peons know exactly what was happening. Typically this would happen on those puddle jumper flights and more often on turbo-prop planes. I only had it happen once on a bigger jet and the flight crew there was very accommodating; to the point of passing out drinks during the hold.

The crew on your flight must have been brain dead when it comes to customer service.
 

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Posted by Kevin Roudebush (Member # 1916) on 05-21-2012, 04:13 PM:
 
I'm a pilot but just a private pilot. My understanding is that the Control tower recordings are available online to listen to, at least heard that during my training. Maybe you could search a little and see if they are available. There would be some discussion on there.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-21-2012, 05:18 PM:
 
Agreed that there should have been an announcement from the flight deck explaining what had happened. It can't have been that serious, because the last people the pilots want to kill are themselves - but given the general jitteriness about flying in general, it would have been good PR to do a PA.

My aviation scare anecdote was a rejected takeoff in a CRJ at Minneapolis in 2007. It was 15-20 seconds in and so we can't have been that far off rotation speed (it was a very lightly loaded plane - can't have been more than 10 of us on there), when suddenly on went the brakes and thurst reversers. Those things can really slow down quickly if the need arises! I was thrown forward out of my seat in what was a dramatic demonstration of why you're told to latch your tray table in the up position before takeoff. It would have gone right through my stomach if I hadn't. The pilot explained immediately afterwards that he'd been told by ATC to abort because they hadn't had confirmation that the plane that had landed in front of us had cleared the runway (it was dark and snowing heavily, and so I guess they couldn't see from the tower). We had to wait half an hour for the brake pads to cool down before we were able to go again.

Being 6'4" I always try to get an exit row seat myself. A couple of flights ago I did so and noticed a discrepancy between the instructions on the safety card and the notice on the actual door. One said to pull a red cord after opening the door, but the other didn't mention it. So I asked the flight attendant if I could expect to pull a cord or not should the worst come to the worst. She was most surprised, admitted that she wasn't 100% sure (depending on the model of inflatable slide fitted, some doors have cords and others don't) and said that no-one sitting in an emergency exit seat had ever asked her a question like that before. This doesn't exactly give me confidence if I ever am in an evacuation! I suppose it's a complete lottery as to whether the person sitting by the exit is alert and has bothered to read the card, or not.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-21-2012, 05:32 PM:
 
Whenever we're in an exit row I always make a point to read the card but there are a number of things that could go wrong in an emergency:

1. In a panic I might completely forget what I read on the card, and

2. If something serious happens, who's going to listen to some guy who isn't even in a uniform?

Therefore I think that all exit row passengers should be given a special red hat to wear in case of emergency. "Look for the guys in the red hats, they'll know what to do because they read the card!"
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-21-2012, 06:07 PM:
 
Agreed completely - if you're ever having actually to use the emergency exit for real, that means there's an emergency ... and an emergency on a plane by definition means that at the very least you're going to be on edge, and at worst there's going to be a panic going on. When looking at emergency exit cards, my starting point is to assume that all I need to do is to pull the lever, and then the door will open and (if there is one) the slide will deploy automatically; and then to ask myself what is different from that, if anything, and to try to remember it. On the Fokker 70, for example, the card shows the door detaching completely from the fuselage (I'm not a complete plane geek, honest! I just know this because I travel on them quite frequently). It also shows the person putting the door on the seat next to them, which seems to me unrealistic if someone is sitting in it at the time. If I ever had to, I think I'd just chuck it out of the plane. But in any case, if you're not expecting to have to lift a 40-pound object out of the way, I'd guess that this could cause a real problem if an evacuation had to be done for real.

Although no-one's life is at stake, the thought processes in a way must be similar to that of a projection breakdown. I used to train projectionists to stop and think if confronted by a brain wrap, lamp going out, sudden loss of sound etc., because suddenly rushing in to doing something could make the problem worse. But of course that's easier said than done and takes a lot of willpower if the phone is ringing and you know that 300 teenagers are giving you a slow handclap in the auditorium below.
 

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Posted by David M. Leugers (Member # 2968) on 05-21-2012, 07:47 PM:
 
Did your pilots cut the engines (and lights and A/C in the cabin and switch on the emergency lights) while you were rolling on the ground just after pushing back from the gate... and then allow the plane to roll to a stop with the engines off and only the emergency lights on? And just sit there in the way of all of the other planes?

We were on the taxi way, but yeah. I think your plane was probably very tight on fuel and the delay was not near as long as thought. Probably an irate pilot and not too professional in what he did. Unbeknownst to most people, especially pilots ,pilots are just human like everyone else.
 

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Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 5226) on 05-21-2012, 08:05 PM:
 
Mark
Reading through all this and reflecting back to the 90s when one type of aircraft the B757 I used to look after on tarmac.

I always gave the ok to start the engines on push back, so by the time that was completed they were ready to get going. Prior to departing the tug would leave me and I would finish up doing my thing at the nose gear, engaging the hydraulics for the nose wheel steering etc. For a short moment after I would watch those engines running and even on idle they they are still producing a lot of thrust. The reason I mention this, is that there is a "danger zone" in front of those engines I had to keep clear of and it might be, that as your aircraft taxied a "hazard" could have been in the way, birds, rubbish etc, hence both engines were shut down as safety. After all the intakes are like a big vacuum cleaner I would contact the airline with your concerns and see what they say.

Graham.

PS. I used to tell the pilots while I was at nose gear...I will see you round the "left side" soon. It was just a reminder to them I was still under there.....later a wee wave on the left side to the pilot and his wee wave back and then get to hell out of the road before they let the brakes off and I became that hazard.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Bodge (Member # 4072) on 05-21-2012, 08:24 PM:
 
I always ask the pilot when some problem has happened, "what happened?" This is when I leave the plane and sit in my seat and last to leave. One time we hit something (a wind wall) at cruising altitude. Everything shook. Pilot came on and said another plane came within 500 feet of us. Called a pilot friend of mine and said this is OK to do. 500 feet? 550 mph? really? Guess so. Another time took off from Westchester & immediately once in the Air the engines dropped to almost nothing. Thought that this was it. Asked him after the flight..."Well there was an aircraft above us." But it's amazing we fly. There isn't enough fuel to do this much longer. We are lucky to actually fly at this time.
 

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Posted by David M. Leugers (Member # 2968) on 05-21-2012, 08:49 PM:
 

quote: Jonathan Bodge

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But it's amazing we fly. There isn't enough fuel to do this much longer. We are lucky to actually fly at this time.

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quote: Mark J. Marshall

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That's an interesting comment on there possibly being a hazard of some kind near the engines. That makes perfect sense to me actually. It would also explain why they would kill everything without taking the time to wait for the plane to stop moving.

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quote:

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June 11, 2012

Dear Mr. Marshall:

Thank you for contacting Customer Relations. We welcome the opportunity to respond to your concerns.

Based on your descripton of what took place and our records do not know any operational issues with the aircraft you were on, we are sorry but we can't be sure what took place. It sounds like the plane stalled out, similar to a car stalling and just needed to be restarted. Nevertheless, we will not hesitate to delay or even cancel a flight in the interest of customer safety which is our number one priority. We are sorry for any concern this may have caused.

Mr. Marshall, thank you for giving us the opportunity to address this matter. We appreciate your business.

Sincerely,

Customer Relations
American Airlines

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quote: American Customer Relations

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It sounds like the plane stalled out, similar to a car stalling and just needed to be restarted.

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Wow. Unbelievable that bit of total ignorance came from a spokesperson at a major air carrier. There's simply no way jet engines just "stall out" when idling or at breakaway thrust settings on the ground unless one turns the fuel off or greatly disturbs the incoming air flow. Once lit, they stay lit, even if the igniters are turned off.

It's true that if the airflow coming into the engine(s) has been disturbed enough, the engine can overtemp and fail. But that requires a big disturbance (like a large tailwind, debris in the inlets, or standing in another aircraft's jet blast) and that doesn't seem to be the case here.

My 757-rated buddies never returned my inquiries, so I still don't know of a combination of events that would lead to the total shutdown situation described here. Usually, when a transport-category aircraft has just begun taxiing for departure, the engine igniters will still be on, and the APU will still be on and sharing electrical and air loads. I don't know if a 757 can be dispatched with an Deferred or MEL (MEL - Minimum Equipment List) APU.

I don't remember if American taxis with both engines running or not. Many carriers don't start the other engine until just before taking the active runway for departure. Still, I can't think of a single-point failure that would result in both engines and the APU shutting down.

And even if such a simultaneous shutdown happens, there is still battery power for some systems on the flight deck. The escape path lighting in the cabin is separately powered by its own batteries too.

I can see non-essential loads (like the In-Flight Entertainment (IFE) system (playing the safety briefing), and galley power) going off-line in the event of electrical buses going off-line, but to lose everything... I just don't understand how that can happen.

And for Frank, yes there is an Aircraft Logbook which must be aboard the aircraft and kept current. Apparently in this case, the situation was not considered noteworthy, and therefore no log entries were made. Also apparently, no calls were made to either dispatch or maintenance control. Curiouser and curiouser...
 

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Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 5226) on 06-11-2012, 05:10 PM:
 
To say those engines might have stalled on idle or just above it is rubbish. Once they are up and running thats it, unless they are deliberately shut down by the pilots. The reply you recieved is poor and makes me wonder if they even bothered to check things out.

Graham.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-11-2012, 06:11 PM:
 
You can bet they didn't spend more than 10 seconds on this.
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 06-11-2012, 06:18 PM:
 
I only fly small planes, but here is a guess. Durring taxeing, the pilots will be testing things. It may be that one of the pilots hit a wrong button, while proforming a test.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-11-2012, 06:29 PM:
 
Sounds like the FA wrote you a "feel good" letter. Louis
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 06-11-2012, 09:02 PM:
 
There have been cases of the wrong buttons being pressed causing engines to shutdown, like hitting the fuel cutoff instead of the auto-throttle engage right after takeoff (the incident at LAX is famous but I can't remember the aircraft type - the control layout did have those two controls right next to each other).

But to get a total shutdown as described here would (to me at least) require several buttons/switches to be actuated. Now we get into looking at crew actions. Hmmm. Wish I still had access to a B-757 systems trainer - could try to recreate this shutdown!
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-11-2012, 09:53 PM:
 
I believe Paul is referring to an early 767 where the pilots shut off the engines leaving LAX and by the time they sorted it out they were only at 500 Feet.

I remember they continued on to the destination without coming back for a change of underwear.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-12-2012, 11:38 AM:
 

quote: Paul Mayer

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There have been cases of the wrong buttons being pressed causing engines to shutdown, like hitting the fuel cutoff instead of the auto-throttle engage right after takeoff (the incident at LAX is famous but I can't remember the aircraft type - the control layout did have those two controls right next to each other).

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quote: Lyle Romer

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If this was the case then the solution would just be to re-start the APU and start both engines.

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quote: Leo Enticknap

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Apparently the APU is normally shut down during routine flight anyway. This strikes me as very inefficient, hauling such a dead weight around through the sky. You'd have thought that all airports would provide ground power facilities as routine so that APUs were unnecessary, but I'm guessing there's some safety reason I haven't thought of why you might need one in mid-air (generator failure in all engines?). But if so, why is it permissible for an airliner to fly with the APU out of service?

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quote: Lyle Romer

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From a safety perspective the APU is required to be functioning for the aircraft to fly an ETOPS (Extended Twin Engine Operations) route as a backup in case of single engine failure.

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quote: Lyle Romer

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Most of the time at major airports the aircraft is connected to ground power and air conditioning while parked at the gate.

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quote: Leo Enticknap

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So why can't you start the first engine using "mainline" ground power (rather than a cart), and then push back?

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