quote:

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Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver
There are reports of casualties after a shooting incident at a Batman film premiere in the US city of Denver.

Police said 30 to 40 people had been injured in the incident, Colorado state's 850 KOA radio reported.

Witnesses said someone wearing a gas mask opened fire and set off some kind of device, perhaps a tear gas bomb.

Reuters news agency quoted a local reporter saying 10 people had died, but this is unconfirmed

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quote: Scott Ribbens

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Well, 10 is what I first heard/saw, 14 came from a police official right before I typed it. I certainly hope that it's a lower number than that when all is said and done.

This is a really sad event.

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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The man broke in an exit how can staff anticipate that? How the hell do you kick in an exit door? Metal frame, opens out, cinder block building.

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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A new report says he went in (in the last 4 minutes) says he bought a ticket slipped out the emergency exit and propped it open then reentered with the the guns and gas

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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Like I said you have to be very aware of your background, whats behind where you are shooting.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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The way it sounds to me, the situation was hopeless. No one on the theater premises had any chance to stop this guy. Not any of the patrons or staff members.

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quote: Joe Redifer

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Just imagine being trapped in a stadium-seating auditorium during something like this. In order to escape you'd need to run down and forward, towards the shooter and then turn around and run out of a skinny access hallway.

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Do you mean that there is no exit at the rear of the auditorium? What kind of a fire inspector would approve that design? If the only exit is at the front and there is a fire at the front (let alone a nut with guns), everyone is trapped.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-20-2012, 06:07 PM:
 
Most stadium seated theaters are built in this manner. Gotta walk down the stairs toward the screen to get at the enter/exit hallway.

If I was in the theater at the time of this incident I would have said "screw the stairs." I'd bail over the side, getting to that exit ASAP. Sure, I might break an ankle or tear up a knee with such a leap. Injuring my leg would be a good alternative to taking a bullet!
 

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Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 07-20-2012, 06:54 PM:
 
I've wondered for a while how fire codes have allowed that setup. In an extreme emergency I guess you could break the booth windows and go in, but some places have the windows up high.

My 2 cents on this incident: I've always felt the rear exit doors at most theaters have not been adequately secured. There at least needs to be an easy way for someone to check in a central location which doors are open, since that should be a rare occurrence other than when a movie is ending. In my years as a projectionist I kept an eye out and busted a number of people sneaking their friends in through the exit doors, when they thought nobody was watching. I've seen some incredibly stupid stuff done by the exits too, like going outside and hanging onto the door so they could smoke and then go back inside. Sounds like this guy was counting on easy exit door access for his plan to work, since he parked right next to it outside.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-20-2012, 07:18 PM:
 
Been watching the local news as I type this and just can't believe it. But it is sad commentary on society in general these days it seems. And the self-aggrandizing statement by the film's director made me want to puke. Asswipe.

LINK

quote:

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"Speaking on behalf of the cast and crew of The Dark Knight Rises, I would like to express our profound sorrow at the senseless tragedy that has befallen the entire Aurora community. I would not presume to know anything about the victims of the shooting but that they were there last night to watch a movie. I believe movies are one of the great American art forms and the shared experience of watching a story unfold on screen is an important and joyful pastime. The movie theatre is my home, and the idea that someone would violate that innocent and hopeful place in such an unbearably savage way is devastating to me. Nothing any of us can say could ever adequately express our feelings for the innocent victims of this appalling crime, but our thoughts are with them and their families."

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quote: Joe Redifer

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Just imagine being trapped in a stadium-seating auditorium during something like this. In order to escape you'd need to run down and forward, towards the shooter and then turn around and run out of a skinny access hallway.

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This is an actual auditorium at this Cinemark/Century theater:



As Joe points out, if the guy is standing at the bottom, there is literally nowhere for anyone to go but wait to die. We can expect for this not to be corrected either, because that would mean building an evil mezzanine, which in today's digital builds is a big naughty word. I've always felt there should be a MANDATORY exit "hallway" beside the stadium seating on EACH side of the stadium risers, and also two "exit only" doors to a hallway (and an elevator for handicapped) at the top back two corners. My initial reasoning for this was due to just building a proper design in the first place from a customer standpoint and also for fire codes. Today's unnecessary events now give another reason for it.

There are more pictures of this theater here.

quote: Sean Weitzel

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I am curious, does D-Cinema have a big red "STOP" button that can kill everything and bring up the house lights or is it something more complicated requiring mucking with the server?

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quote:

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All Gun References Reportedly Being Removed From Dark Knight Rises Ads

There is a line between sensibly responding to a tragedy and overreacting out of fear. You can make up your own mind as to where this decision falls. Warner Brothers has reportedly decided to remove all traces and references to firearms in its marketing campaign for The Dark Knight Rises. A new gun-free trailer is supposedly being produced and all weapons in TV spots will be removed within the next few days.

According to TMZ, the course was charted by executives at Warner within a few hours of this morning’s tragic mass murder at an Aurora, Colorado midnight screening. Reports are currently putting the number of dead at twelve with the injured count far higher.

It’s important to note nothing about the final cut of the film has been changed, nor should it be changed. It’s acceptable, perhaps even natural we’d all be reminded of these grisly events because they happened during a Dark Knight Rises screening, but had the release date been pushed back another few months, the deranged shooter almost certainly would have chosen a different, high profile public gathering.

Warner Brothers is yet to comment publically on its supposed decision to alter the promotional materials, but if they do, we’ll be sure to bring it your way. Cinema Blend’s thoughts go out to the victims’ families as they attempt to cope with the unspeakable. There are no answers, only millions of honest, hard-working Americans ready and willing to help in anyway they can.

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Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 07-20-2012, 11:25 PM:
 
My stomach just hurts when I think about this. At the old Cinemark I worked at, our 4 stadium houses had almost the same design, with no exits at the top. I actually played out worst case scenarios in my head before, and it always kind of freaked me out. Now, to see one actually happen, is just very upsetting.

I can't imagine being the manager on duty that night, or even just an usher tearing tickets.

I honestly hope this does bring attention to the poor design of these types of auditoriums because frankly, it is a death trap.

My thoughts are with the victims and all those who love them.

AJG
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-21-2012, 12:31 AM:
 
Somehow my cynical nature says, they are not really over-reacting, they're just pushing their PR pedal-to-the metal to make sure there is a very visible reaction from the company which the public will perceive as "sensitive" and "responsive."
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-21-2012, 12:38 AM:
 


I can tell you from experience with the Century Jordan Creek 20 (Des Moines, IA) and Century Bella Terra 20 (Huntington Beach, CA) that this is pretty much the standard Century auditorium design.

I have found the design to be lacking in many respects, including the fact that the standard speaker location for the stage speakers in the bigger auditoria have the speakers close to 15 FEET off the floor, built on tiny platforms. A total nightmare to service.

But the lack of rear exits and the narrow exit paths is the most disturbing. I am puzzled how the fire/life safety codes have been laxed enough to allow this?
 

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Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 07-21-2012, 12:53 AM:
 
(deleted)
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-21-2012, 01:10 AM:
 
I haven't been in too many different chains' stadium auditoriums but I can't ever remember being in one that had exits at the top or sides of the stadium area. Only behind the seating via the stairs, as has been pointed out.

It's a no-brainer that this is a stupid, tragic incident. It's also a typical over-reaction. Places are pulling the movie? COME ON. It's one brain-dead idiot, who is now in custody.

Think of the hundreds of thousands of movie performances that happen in this country EVERY DAY without incident. The best reaction from the exhibition community is to express our sorrow at this senseless tragedy and then move on. Canceling shows and "beefing up security" is going to be counter-productive.

The good news is, at least this perpetrator didn't pull the usual "killed a bunch of people before turning the gun on himself" crap. He's in custody, so maybe some sort of motivation and/or accomplices can be discovered before he's put away to rot in jail at the taxpayers' expense.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-21-2012, 01:21 AM:
 
I am happy to spend a little money for him to rot.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-21-2012, 03:13 AM:
 

quote: Frank Angel

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My dad was a NYC fire inspector and he always said that in most fires where there are large number of people trying to escape, more deaths take place, not from the actual fire/smoke, but from trampling. Fire is a vicious beast, but people become wild animals in such situations.

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quote:

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Posted: Sat 12:14 AM, Jul 21, 2012

Reporter: Andrew Colegrove

HUNTINGTON, W.Va. (WSAZ) – The location of the massacre in Colorado shocked local teens who’d recently been to the theater where the shooting happened.

Kaity Hanna got back from a trip to Colorado a couple weeks ago.

She thought she'd remember the trip for being the first time she saw the Rocky Mountains. Now it'll stick with her for a much darker reason.

She plays for the Mountain Thunder, a traveling softball team made of teens from Cabell, Wayne and Kanawha counties.

The girls played in a tournament in Colorado called the Sparkler. Their hotel was just a few minutes from the Century 16 Theater.

Kaity, who just graduated from Cabell Midland, says they were there the night of July 1 and saw the movie “Ted.”

The location of Thursday night's massacre came to them as a shocking revelation.

“If it had happened sooner we could have been there,” she said. “We could have been in the theater. I talked to one of the other players. It really hit her hard realizing it could have been us."

Midland student Jordan Colliflower was also left stunned when she heard about the location of the massacre.

“We could have been there,” Jordan said. “It could have been us in that same theater."

It was equally disturbing for their families knowing their loved ones had been in the same spot of the tragedy.

"I wasn't for sure it was the same theater,” Jordan’s father Eric Colliflower said. “When I woke her up she said ‘That was the same theater we were in.’ I was like, just kind of got sick to my stomach."

"They decided to go to a movie, just innocent fun like most teenagers do,” Jordan’s stepmother Julia Colliflower said. “I'm sure there were tons of teenagers (Thursday) night in Colorado that were doing the same thing. Some deranged person decided he could do something bad to them. Now a lot of lives are changed forever."

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quote: David Bowler

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Movie theaters used to be a 2-3 hour escape from the hustle and bustle of the outside world

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quote: Joe Redifer

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I've been in the theater before. Why aren't the news media beating down my door?

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quote: David Bowler

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Compare that with the dramatic increase in gun violence since the late sixties and the growing number of people reporting mental illness and you can start to see why people are truly afraid.

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quote: Joe Redifer

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I've been in the theater before. Why aren't the news media beating down my door?

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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I've driven past that theater a couple times. Why isn't the media interviewing me?

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And I built the sound racks for that theatre. Hey, maybe the three of us need to do a press conference.

Yeah the media is really the evil part of this whole tragedy. They have, by their very actions, given this psychopath the very attention he was seeking. The common sense thing to do in a situation like this is to black out ALL public dissemination of information about the suspect, his poor fucked up life and the fact he can't get laid. But then the freedom of speech advocates would scream bloody murder. (Literally and I did not intend to make a pun or joke here.)

Freedom of speech can be the Kobyashi Maru of society at times.
 

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Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 07-21-2012, 01:42 PM:
 
Theater shootings aren't a new thing either- I remember hearing about stuff happening during showings of "gangsta" movies like Colors or Boyz N The Hood.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-21-2012, 02:06 PM:
 

quote: David Bowler

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Car accidents have been happening since automobiles have been manufactured. How many movie theater shootings have been that calculated and have produced body counts and casualties like this?

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My analogy was really about car ACCIDENTS, not driving in general.

The two things are similar. With a crowd shooting or a car accident, they are random; can result in multiple deaths; can't be predicted; and when you get right down to the nitty gritty, can't be prevented. They can be guarded against: you can drive 15mph and only on uncrowded streets, and you can barricade yourself into your house and never emerge into society and avoid ever being hurt.

But I prefer the occasional freeway, even if there is a pileup now and then.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-21-2012, 02:51 PM:
 
Here are a couple better pictures right-clicked and saved from some site called Cinematour:


This is looking across the lobby into the entrance of auditorium #9. The idiot bought his ticket and traveled this way into the auditorium.


This is a better picture of auditorium #9. Kind of crazy looking at this knowing that in the future people would die in here. This is likely where he stood as he started shooting upon entering from the exit door after getting his stuff.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-21-2012, 03:07 PM:
 

quote: Joe Redifer

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The idiot

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quote: David Bowler

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In my humble opinion, for far too long, way too much stress and time has been put on achieving status, possessions, huge bank accounts and ultimately pointless endeavors to stroke one's ego and give them a false sense of value. Strip away all the crap that isn't imperative to the survival of our species and we're left with each other.

Maybe it's time we stop this futile and obvious competition and actually start caring for one another instead of putting up the facade that we do.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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I've already seen one story in the paper about some girl saying she never wants to go to the movies again, and her mom saying "I can see her point...why expose yourself to that possibility when you can wait six months and watch it in the safety of your home?"

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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THIS is what we need more of in the news media. They keep using words like "gunman," "shooter," etc. If there were headlikes such as:

CRAZY IDIOT SHOOTS UP MOVIE THEATER

there'd be less chances for copycat crimes. "Gunman" sounds badass. "Goofball" does not.

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quote: Another internet discussion forum poster said:

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Anecdote time!

I have had a CCW permit for twelve years and carried for a solid ten of those.
Yes I've carried in a theater.
No, I've never had to draw my weapon.

Rule three of, my personal, firearms states: Know your target AND what's beyond it. Always assume the worst.

A crowded, panic stricken, tear gas filling, with guns firing, people screaming, children crying and people being trampled to death is NOT the time and place to even attempt to draw, level, aim and fire a weapon. There are so many outcomes that end with you causing more damage, then is currently being done. If you want to be a hero, then you pick up that kid off the ground, help his mother to her feet and you get these people to safety.

THEN! Once you have as many people out of the line of fire, as is feasible, prepare to defend yourself and their retreat, in case the maniac decides to attempt to gun down the people fleeing his rampage.

Just my opinion.

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quote: David Bowler

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Great attitude, Brad.

Perpetuating attitudes like this are exactly what I'm talking about as being detrimental.

Label yourself a realist if ambivalence makes you feel comfortable.

I call it cowardice.

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Cowardice? Fine. Whatever makes you feel like a better person than everyone else. Its all about the illusion anyway.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-21-2012, 10:33 PM:
 
I find it amazing that a 6-post newbie has the balls to confront the owner of the site.
 

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Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 07-22-2012, 01:42 AM:
 
*sends CNN to Grand Prairie to interview Jonathan*
 

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Posted by Andrew Peter Chobaniuk (Member # 3886) on 07-22-2012, 08:17 AM:
 
Few parts to my post, but first a question, was this door not alarmed?

In my previous work at a theatre our doors were alarmed and a propped open door would have been investigated immediately to be secured. Sadly this provision was not just to prevent people sneaking in for a free movie. The theatre was Esplanade 6 in North Vancouver, BC and in 1997, years before I worked there, a man was murdered in auditorium 4 when an assailant entered through the exit door. Thankfully it was related to drugs and no innocent people were harmed. But you can see why we treated security seriously.

So it makes me wonder that if this theatre was alarmed why was it not investigated in a timely manner, that's a critical error that falls to theatre staff. If it wasn't alarmed I ask why in the hell not???

Either way, Security at exit doors will be paramount after this tragedy.

Not to get into a political debate, but I just will never ever understand the American obsession with firearms, it's just in no way part of Canadian culture.

Some background Info:

"Mirhadi, 21 and an alleged member of the Persian Pride gang, was gunned down Feb. 28, 1997 at the Esplanade 6 theatre in North Vancouver during a screening of the gangster movie Donnie Brasco."

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=6deea149-7708-49b1-acf7-1820975daab5
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 07-22-2012, 11:21 AM:
 
I am a dreamer too, but we also have to face reality as well David. I do not see much options at the time being unfortunately.

Andrew,
Even though the door had been alarmed, would have it changed anything? An usher would have checked, expecting to find a bunch of teenagers sneaking in, not a killer.

There's nothing that could have been done to prevent this IMHO. Society should begin looking after people rather than banks and money, that's it.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-22-2012, 12:00 PM:
 
To the best of my knowledge, there is no regulations requiring theatres or any public gathering place to have exit doors alarmed. Yes, they are required never to be locked and they have to OPEN just by pushing on them, but they don't need to be alarmed. The alarm is primarily put in by the owner in order to prevent people from using those door for anything but emergencies and it's at their discression. As you say, that might change from here on out.

As for the gun culture in the USA, it comes from the fact that we used them freely and pretty much out in the open -- none of this wussy "consealed" business -- they were worn on the hip; it was how we kept law and order in the early days. You didn't mess with someone who had a gun strapped to his leg.

And then let's not overlook that we needed guns aplenty to murder the native inhabitants when got here and usurp their land; you can't invade, plunder and commit genocide without guns.

BTW, yes, you need a license to carry a consealed weapon; does anyone know if you can carry a gun that is not consealed, as in wild west style worn outside? Why do they keep talking about "consealed weapons;" don't you need a license to carry ANY gun? And if you have a license, can you carry the weapon wild west style, walking around with it strapped to your waist? Bet that would be more of a deterrent than hiding it under your pant leg on your calf.
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 07-22-2012, 12:23 PM:
 
You have sort of fractured matinee movie idea of the 19th century west. For the most part towns in the old west prohibited anyone carrying guns in the open. Not all but most. The department of Indian Affairs conducted the policies toward the Indians not settlers.

Often the lands were purchased from the Indians often they were taken from the Indians with some kind of compensation paid to them. The Indian Wars were a result of tribes being forced to reservations and ending their nomadic way of life.
We were indeed the bad guys but there was no formal plan to wipe out the Indians in fact with each new administration a new way of handling the Indians was born.

The inconsistent treatment was the real problem but end for the Indian was accelerated by a tanning process that made the hide of the buffalo valuable. Hunters harvested the big animals with 45-70 ammunition provided by the government. Not to rob the Indian of his primary food source but so the leather could fuel the industrial revolution. Many of the factories used belts to run the machinery made of buffalo leather.

The result was in 10 years there weren't any more big herds of buffalo just a few here and there. No food the Indians had to go to reservations.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-22-2012, 12:38 PM:
 
No doubt it is a very complicated issue, but the end result is simple and obvious. The natives got screwed.

And once again, it's all big business's fault!
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 07-22-2012, 01:15 PM:
 
Frank that history minor and my love of history just breaks though sometimes. I am part Cherokee myself so I see the terrible way the Indian was treated. The trail of tears forced relocation was bar far one of the worst chapters in American History. The good thing they put them in Oklahoma, hey I'm still in Oklahoma!

Oh and the Indians broke as many of the treaties as the whites did. No matter what Billy Jack proclaimed. I can understand some of reason behind that.

Mining camps had no laws usually they were far worse than cattle towns. The absolute lowest forms of human life flooded in. In the first year of Deadwood (the town not the show) there were 365 known murders and 100's of people just disappeared. Even the show didn't show how rough a place it really was.

and all of this has little to do with the current topic.

I cannot understand the inner workings of such a damaged mind that could find pleasure in harming others, especially on such a massive scale. Someone so determined to cause harm will find a way. The news media keeps harping that they need to know the motive such a thing. There is no motive or not one we need to know buried deep in his mind he just wanted this thrill. He could have just as easily turned into a serial killer and maybe he would have killed a larger number of people.
 

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Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 07-23-2012, 04:27 PM:
 
There's a misconception that needs to be cleared up here...Exterior auditorium exits are NOT emergency exits.

I have NEVER seen exterior auditorium exit doors alarmed. They're commonly used by customers who park near the auditorium doors. And that's how it should be. It keeps the corridor flow to a minimum. The initial media reports saying this was an "emergency exit" were completely ignorant of multiplex design.

The customers at Century 16 in Salt Lake City (which was built around the same time as Aurora and has the exact same building plan) use these more often than most because that building is up against the street and all of their parking is in the back. So if you're in a rear auditorium, it makes no sense to go back to the lobby.

If one freak is going to change that, then the real solution should be to sterilize everyone and outlaw having babies so that none of them grow up to be troubled college students.
 

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Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 07-23-2012, 05:13 PM:
 
Police: Waterfront fight during 'Dark Knight Rises' began with rude child

quote:

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Police: Waterfront fight during 'Dark Knight Rises' began with rude child
July 23, 2012 12:39 pm

July 22: Fight breaks out at West Homestead theater during 'The Dark Knight Rises' showing

By Sadie Gurman / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

A man faces a string of criminal charges stemming from a Sunday fight that sent an audience watching "The Dark Knight Rises" at The Waterfront scrambling for the exits, though police said the scuffle had nothing to do with the Batman sequel nor with last week's violence during a screening in Colorado.

Instead, officers said, the violence began in a bathroom, where a child knocked on the door of a stall and a man inside repeatedly told him it was occupied.

The child swore at the man, who became offended and confronted the boy's mother, at one point punching her in the face, police said.

As the argument escalated, someone shouted "Gun!" which produced a panic, police said.

Movie-goers, perhaps jittery after 12 people were killed and dozens of others were wounded during a showing of the Batman movie in Aurora, Colo., dashed for the doors.

The man, 51, whose name police would not immediately release, will be charged with simple assault, disorderly conduct and harassment.

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quote:

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As the argument escalated, someone shouted "Gun!" which produced a panic, police said.

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quote: Frank Angel

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BTW, yes, you need a license to carry a consealed weapon; does anyone know if you can carry a gun that is not consealed, as in wild west style worn outside? Why do they keep talking about "consealed weapons;" don't you need a license to carry ANY gun? And if you have a license, can you carry the weapon wild west style, walking around with it strapped to your waist? Bet that would be more of a deterrent than hiding it under your pant leg on your calf.

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quote: Hillary Charles

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We are allowed to carry out in the open, and one local frequently makes public appearance with his sidearm prominently holstered.

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Pennsylvania is an "Open Carry" state but with provisions: http://paopencarry.org/

Any law abiding adult is allowed to carry a loaded handgun in public, without need of a permit, if it is holstered in plain sight.

However, making threats or committing "threatening acts" will get you in trouble. Some localities within the state may have laws or ordinances which limit open carry and there are specific areas where carrying a gun is specifically forbidden: First Class cities, (a city with more than 1,000,000 population - Philadelphia being the only one in PA) schools, courtrooms, federal property, state parks and air terminals are all off limits.

Personally, I do not have a concealed carry permit nor do I intend to volunteer my name to be placed on any government list of people who own guns. Since Pennsylvania is an open carry state, I can carry a gun anywhere I think it is necessary to do so but, being a white male, six feet tall and weighing nearly 20 stone, I don't often feel the need. Most of the time, if I think a gun is necessary, I just won't go to that place but there have been occasions where I had to go some place where I thought it might be necessary and I have worn a gun. (e.g. My wife's car broke down in a bad neighborhood and I had to go pick her up. I told her to stay in the car, lock the doors and wait for me.)

As far as I am concerned, the joker who committed this crime did so with premeditation and with grave malice. He used tear gas bombs in the theater and he booby trapped his apartment with explosives and incendiary devices. He knew what he was doing and the use of guns was merely incidental to the crime.

While I share my sympathies with those who were hurt of killed and their families, I am still quite angry at this kid for doing what he did but, moreover, I fell bad that we didn't give this kid the help he needed. Not just the "you need help" kind of help but the overall, general support that members of a community need to share with each other.

Violence in the media is one thing but when a community marginalizes some people because of petty differences it breeds people like this. Some people may be mentally ill (and need "that kind of help") but I think the majority of these people are suffering through emotional bumps in the road which could be overcome if friends, neighbors and peers would simply offer support.

You don't have to be best buddies with everybody. You don't have to be your brother's keeper. Just a pat on the shoulder and a few minutes of understanding conversation can often go a long way. I take this from personal experience. Just being able to talk to somebody can really help get your head out of the clouds.

On the other hand, if this kid really was as loopy as he looks in his picture, somebody should have been there to throw a net over him before he got so far out in left field.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-23-2012, 09:59 PM:
 
This killer was likely the worst possible type: smart, patient and prepared.

While the guy wasn't necessarily an "idiot" in the conventional sense, he appears to have taken some kind of odd trip off to La La Land. The guy looked crazy during his arraignment. My cynical side says that could be a defensive ploy to cop an insanity plea. I did get weirded out by the video of him back in college talking about exploring subjective realities. It's almost like he was saying, "hey everybody, I'm going to embrace paranoid schizophrenia!"
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-23-2012, 10:06 PM:
 
My choice of pronouns for "James Eagan Holmes" was purposeful.

"Kid," being a diminutive word used in the pejorative sense, was meant to belittle in both a physical and emotional sense.

The word "joker" was used in irony. Do I need to explain this? After all, it was a Batman movie!
 

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Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-23-2012, 10:21 PM:
 
Being found not guilty by reason of insanity is not how it's portrayed in the movies. Sam Jackson isn't grilling in his back yard the evening after the verdict. Instead of prison, you are confined to a mental institution. There are more guards/nurses per patient. Usually the sentence is longer, although in this case it's going to be life regardless. If a patient is found to be "well" prior to the end of what would have been their prison sentence, they are transferred to a prison to serve the remainder. It's not a "get out of jail free card," it's a "this cell has padded walls" card.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-23-2012, 11:38 PM:
 
And the stupidity continues:

LINK

quote:

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A 52-year-old movie goer in Norwalk (Calif.) was arrested Sunday after allegedly shouting about a gun and the recent movie-theater shooting in Colorado, sheriff's officials said Monday.

Clark Tabor allegedly started creating a disturbance at the AMC Norwalk 20 Theatre at about 5:15 p.m., at first by shouting that the movie had not yet started, sheriff's officials said.

Several witnesses told police the suspect appeared to hold his cellphone in the air and yelled, "Does anyone have a gun?" and "I should go off like in Colorado."

Tabor was arrested on suspicion of making criminal threats – a felony – and is being held on $50,000 bail plus unrelated warrants, police said.

The man seemed to refer to last week's movie theater massacre in Aurora, Colo., in which a man dressed in tactical gear opened fire on a crowd seated for a midnight screening of "The Dark Knight Rises."

A dozen people were killed and 58 were injured in the shooting. James Holmes, 24, was arrested outside the theater -- his hair dyed a bright orange and telling police he was The Joker.

Colorado's shooting prompted the LA Sheriff's Department to step up patrols around Southland theaters. Several other LA-area law enforcement units added extra patrols in the wake of the shooting.
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Officials last week encouraged Southland residents to keep their plans to see a movie and not "let the actions of one man doing a cowardly act" affect their movie-going experience, but they did advise them to be alert -- echoing the mantra of the "See Something, Say Something" campaign.

Fellow patrons on Sunday alerted theater security of Tabor, who was found by a theater security officer wearing a backpack and kneeling in the second row of seats, police said.

No weapons were found on the suspect, in the theater or its surrounding area, or in Tabor's residence, police said.

He is set to appear in Bellflower Court on Tuesday.

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quote:

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Tony B said: I am really starting to hate people in general if this is the level of intelligence that is common today.

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quote: Andrew Peter Chobaniuk

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Not to get into a political debate, but I just will never ever understand the American obsession with firearms, it's just in no way part of Canadian culture.

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quote: Louis Bornwasser

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This guy wants to be "known." Any attention he gets plays to his fantasies. Perhaps the theatre shooting was just to get the police to enter his booby trapped room.

As a society, we should only note that "the assailant was apprehended. His booby trapped apartment was disarmed." Nothing more.

Otherwise, we are playing "his game." louis

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quote: Andrew Peter Chobaniuk

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Not to get into a political debate, but I just will never ever understand the American obsession with firearms, it's just in no way part of Canadian culture.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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My cynical side says that could be a defensive ploy to cop an insanity plea.

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quote: Sam Graham

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There's a misconception that needs to be cleared up here...Exterior auditorium exits are NOT emergency exits.

I have NEVER seen exterior auditorium exit doors alarmed. They're commonly used by customers who park near the auditorium doors. And that's how it should be. It keeps the corridor flow to a minimum. The initial media reports saying this was an "emergency exit" were completely ignorant of multiplex design.
All exits become emergency exits in an emergency. Most places don't have exits labeled as emergency just as exits. Just my 2cents worth.

Not to get political, but you're not the only one. It's no way a part of Australian culture either.

[QUOTE=Peter Howard]Not to get political, but you're not the only one. It's no way a part of Australian culture either.

Perhaps overstepping Brad's rules here, but: The Second Amendment seems a bit of an NRA crutch to me. It might have been relevent in 1791 when there was just a bunch of divergent states with individual militias and the British might have attempted to retake the United States at any time, but in 2012 it just seems so ... frankly dumb... to leave that unmodified in the Bill Of Rights.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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Basically there's no way to absolutely prevent such things like this from happening. We try to do things to cut down the odds from it happening. But there's only so much that can be done without all of us living out our lives at home in a cocoon.

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But, then, a meteor could fall out of the sky and crush you to death as you hide in your cocoon!


 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 07-26-2012, 02:04 PM:
 
For Oklahoma right now the danger is a massive earth quake. :-) no kiddin a massive earth quake.
 

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Posted by Michael Gonzalez (Member # 593) on 07-26-2012, 08:50 PM:
 
The one thing I have been curious about is I wonder what the third part of his plan was? He rigged up his apartment and left his front door ajar connected to a trip wire. He had a timer on his stereo to go off 20 minutes before his attack so that extremely loud Techno music would start playing with the expectation that someone would open up his front door triggering an explosion. The point of which, beyond killing a bunch of people at his apartment complex, was to distract police so that he could shoot up the theater. But I am wondering if later we are going to find out that he also had a third target in mind after the theater since he did not expect the police to show up so fast and he didn't plan on his rife jamming.

As an aside, initial reports where that we was cooperating with the police by telling them that his apartment was booby trapped. I am going to bet that he wasn't cooperating but instead he bragged something to the effect "You know that apartment that blew up, that was mine" and thus inadvertently tipped off police that his apartment was wired.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-26-2012, 10:05 PM:
 
He was trying to kill all the people in the apartment complex by playing LOUD TECHNO MUSIC, which no one could disarm because the apartment was booby trapped.
 

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Posted by Peter Howard (Member # 3491) on 07-27-2012, 01:07 AM:
 

quote: Ron Funderburg

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Well put Randy! The second amendment is clear and you can't separate the home protection from the rest.

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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The Japanese did not invade the main land of America because and this a not exact but from memory and very close anyway "there would be a gun pointed at them from behind every tree in addition to the military

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quote: Peter Howard

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But if you're just being carjacked, you dont have the right to pull a gun and blow them away..... just give up the car dammit, and let the cops handle it.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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The Oklahoma Self Defense Act does NOT give anyone the explicit right to actually kill someone who is a threat. The death of a home invader should only be incidental, not intentional.

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quote: Brad Miller

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I'm a little shocked to see a comedian has joked about the shooting already.

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quote: Peter Howard

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Why? Seems to me it's readily seperate-able.
The law in Australia is that if someone's invading your home and threatening you and/or your family THEN you have a form of legal protection to use appropriate force. But if you're just being carjacked, you dont have the right to pull a gun and blow them away..... just give up the car dammit, and let the cops handle it.

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I guess that is where our countries differ laws in conflict with the constitution and amendments there of don't stand up. They are not "Constitutional". The Second Amendment is all or nothing and has not been repealed. If you can pick and chose what parts of your constitution apply and drop of what you don't like more power to you. We can't do that. I wouldn't want it any other way!

If your life is threatened in a car jacking you certainly have right to defend yourself. The car jacker points a gun at me and says get out I will. If just points the gun and seems to be threatening me I probably will fight for the gun. I don't have a carry permit so I don't carry a gun. I have them in home though.

As this is turning political I will now shut up on it!
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-01-2012, 01:17 AM:
 
I finally got around to watching that Dane Cook video. He is still as unfunny as I remember.

Of course I had to watch that whole intro to see why it was so annoying. Yep, it definitely is.
 

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Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 08-01-2012, 01:58 AM:
 
FRinally got to see DKR at our competition. They will still showing the 'Gangster Squad' trailer. We were told to pull it. Easy to see why. The finall scene in the trailer is a bunch of gangsters going into a cinema auditoriun and shooting it up....whoops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWF5ZLvZigQ
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-01-2012, 09:50 AM:
 
One statistic you never seem to see is how often a gun-toting bad guy is successfully defeated by a gun-toting good guy. My guess is that many legal gun owners might be real good on the practice range, but when confronted with a bad guy in a dark room or a noisy, fast-moving, crazy situation they could be more likely to injure an innocent party than the bad guy is.
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 08-01-2012, 10:48 AM:
 
Mike there is a lot of difference when a target shoots back. Not that I know that from experience. And even if I had I don't think this is a place to discuss that!
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-01-2012, 05:25 PM:
 
I'm just saying that nobody, not even real gun fans, knows for sure how they will behave the first time they're faced with a guy shooting up a room. For example they won't have time to aim, like they do on the calm, controlled practice range.
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 08-01-2012, 05:44 PM:
 
No one would know how they would react to that type of situation. When others are there to be hurt you have to be more careful with aim not less, no matter how much you want to rush.

The only open place to shoot on the theater shooter and be certain of hurting him, (I think he is name was James but really would rather not say it) was his face. You might knock him down with a big caliber but the only unprotected part was his face.

No one had a gun in the theater, no off duty cop there to save the day. Those that might have had CWP's respected the theater policies.
 

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Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 08-02-2012, 03:06 PM:
 
Holmes wasn't wearing a ballistic vest, he was wearing a tactical vest. This was one of many things reported incorrectly by the media - probably because they don't know the difference. Here is a link to what he was wearing i.e. his actual order.

http://www.9news.com/news/photo-gallery.aspx?storyid=279073

Even if he had been wearing ballistic "body armor" as was reported, this stuff isn't some impermeable exoskeleton that allows you to walk around while bullets bounce off. It really hurts to be shot while wearing a "bullet proof" vest. They distribute the energy of the bullet over a wider area so they don't penetrate and kill, but they often result in cracked ribs, severe bruising, etc. Make no mistake, had someone shot him, he would have felt it.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-02-2012, 04:05 PM:
 

quote: Mike Blakesley

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My guess is that many legal gun owners might be real good on the practice range, but when confronted with a bad guy in a dark room or a noisy, fast-moving, crazy situation they could be more likely to injure an innocent party than the bad guy is.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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You're far more likely to have a good guy who starts firing wildly in the general direction of the bad guy and winds up taking out a couple of kids.

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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If you wanted a kill shot you would have to go for the face

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quote: Chad Souder

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Oh that is such a load of crap. Why are you "far more likely?"

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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I can't remember EVER reading a news story or hearing an account that contained anything such as "Thank God so-and-so had a gun and took the guy out, or it could have been so much worse."

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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I happen to think that the average gun enthusiast might have all the confidence and control in the world in a training or practice environment, but when confronted within a matter of seconds in a dark room with all the other circumstances I listed above, such a person might not have the time or (maybe) the presence of mind to do the EXACT thing necessary to fix the situation without hurting somebody.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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I can't remember EVER reading a news story or hearing an account that contained anything such as "Thank God so-and-so had a gun and took the guy out, or it could have been so much worse."

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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Few people will have the calm and cool to return controlled fire.

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quote: James Westbrook

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the flashing strobe lights indicating that someone pulled the fire alarm to evacuate the building

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quote: Chad Souder

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And I can't remember EVER reading a news story or hearing an account that contained anything such as "This guy started wildly firing away at a would-be attacker and ended up blowing away the mailman, three kids and a couple birds flying above."

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quote: Mike Blakesley was the last to post

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It's exactly this sort of "assume people will do the worst" mentality that regulates and restricts so many things we do.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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As somebody above said, the more bullets in the air the more damage will be done.

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The shorter the amount of time when bullets are in the air, the better. While the number of bullets is important, the period of time when there are bullets flying is more important.

Bullets might hit their intended target. They might hit an unintended target. They might hit nothing at all before embedding in a wall, etc.

A G.E. Minigun can fire 4,000 rounds per minute. How long would you want to be on the field of fire with one of those bearing down on you? I would tell you, "Never!" But, if I had to be in front of one of those things I would sure as Hell rather withstand one second of fire than ten.

So, the question is not, "Who shot what at whom?" The question should be, "How can we decrease the length of time when people are at risk?"

If that means that shooting back then so be it. More bullets are certainly more dangerous but greater good would be accomplished by decreasing the time when bullets are in the air.

Stopping the attacker, even if that means he must die in the process, is the ultimate goal however, making him diver for cover, partially incapacitating him or totally incapacitating him would be acceptable because that means there is less time when people are in danger.
 

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Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 08-05-2012, 03:19 AM:
 
Joe,
The Barcos in my building have been connected to the fire alarm and are also supposed to shut down when the alarm goes off. The last time this occurred, I had two projectors that kept on playing content. I am assuming it is a fluke with the wiring or automation.
Maybe there was a glitch in the alarm panel. Maybe the alarm panel was under repair and awaiting parts.
The movies should have shut down when the alarm was pulled.
I don't know what other lights would have been flashing like what I saw in the live news feed. I assumed fire alarm.
I assume too much.
Can't say I'm the only one...
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-05-2012, 09:55 AM:
 
Randy; I would have no quams about executing that attacker; I would do it without thought, for the greater good. (If I could get off a lucky shot.) Louis
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-05-2012, 01:08 PM:
 
I don't want to see anybody get killed but, when a somebody is killing other people without provocation, that's different.

You have to do whatever is necessary to stop him even if that means he has to die in the process. If it was possible to neutralize the threat without killing, I would be in favor of that, however, if that means more lives would be at risk in the process then, the way I see it, the lives of many outweigh the life of one.

That still doesn't mean I'd be happy about it.
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 08-06-2012, 10:33 AM:
 
off topic and yet not. The shooting this weekend at SIKH temple the shooter was brought down by the second police officer on the screen. The Main Priest of the temple charged the assailant trying to tackle him. Had he not been a trained solider it might have worked but unfortunately the Priest was killed.

The scumbag of a shooter shot the first police officer on the scene as he was rendering aid to a wounded person. It was good fortune that it wasn't a few hours later and 400 people in the Temple. Sikh is the forth largest religion in the world and offshoot of Hindu. It is nonviolent preaching peace and for people to care for one another.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-06-2012, 12:16 PM:
 

quote: Ron Funderburg

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Had he not been a trained solider it might have worked

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??

Oh now I get it. You were talking about the assailant being a trained soldier, not the priest.
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 08-06-2012, 01:54 PM:
 
Right they have said he was special forces on CNN at one time then withdrew it because they didn't know for sure. He was booted out basically. It was unspecified why (but I could venture a guess) and it was more than a dishonorable. No less than a dishonorable. so he still had benefits he was also a known white supremest.

Makes sense to me him moving in an a community that is 80% Indian. Yes that is irony or sarcasm

And I don't figure this was a copycat I bet he was planing it since he moved there. I still don't understand how you can mix up Sikh and Muslim if he ever bothered to go to a service he would realize they ain't Muslim. Then again did he give a rats butt about who he was killing?
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 08-07-2012, 09:39 AM:
 
Okay a couple of errors one the first office on the scene was wounded not killed hit 14 times shot from ambush. Second officer wasn't hit but took the gunman down. The Gunman has been out of the military since 1999 and never deployed. He was (oddly) in the psychological infiltration. No not infiltration um warfare, hum I'm screwing that up.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-07-2012, 10:46 AM:
 
I hadn't been following the news reports of the shooting at the Sikh temple too closely. But it seems like they're guessing the shooter was targeting Muslims and confused Sikhs for Muslims.

That's probably not too much of a stretch. There seems to be a very strong corollary between bigotry and level of stupidity. The greater the level of prejudice present is often accompanied with an increasingly ignorant level of lunacy.

White supremacists have no shortage of witless mouth-breathers among their ranks.
 

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Posted by William Gruendler (Member # 7079) on 08-07-2012, 10:54 AM:
 
Anybody got the Sinatra "Manchurian Candidate" in BluRay? or are we getting too .. er ... political ... ?
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 08-07-2012, 11:37 AM:
 
You know if you cant get along with Sikh's or Hindu's you really can't get a long with any anyone. Sikh's is a very positive religion. It broke away from Hindu about 500 years ago.

How long had he lived in the community? Of course he didn't really care if it was Muslim or not they had dark skin was all he needed to hate them. I bet he he couldn't poor piss from a boot with instructions written on the heal.

William which version of "Manchurian Candidate" candidate? Frankie or Danzel?
 

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Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 08-07-2012, 11:52 AM:
 
The Sikh temple shooter, Wade M. Page, was leader of a white-power band, and his lyrics and postings advocate violence against black people, gays, Jews, Moslems and all people of color. Apparently there are many such hate groups in the music industry, "on the fringes of punk and heavy metal." Half a dozen or so are named in today's New York Times, and they are monitored by the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League. Sample lyrics and some history of such groups are given in the researched report. ["A Killer Who Fed and Was Fueled by Hate.". p.1]

The photos of Mr.Page show his chest, back and arms heavy with tatoos, a bald or close-cropped head, skinhead style, and very close-cropped moustache and beard. While in the service he was arrested for a drunken rampage in a bar, during which he kicked holes in the sheetrock walls. He was sentenced to 90 days in jail, which was commuted to 180 days probation, a day's public service and a fines of $645. The Army discharged him on terms less than honorably.

Sikhs are among the most recently-founded monotheistic religions, and their temples in New York City have received extra police protection after the shooting, not because of any threat, but to prevent copy-cat incidents.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-07-2012, 12:03 PM:
 
"Copy-cat incidents." That just shows you how many crazy nuts there are in this country.

"Hey, some guy shot up a movie theatre, church or whatever and got caught. Guess I'll try that myself! And DO IT RIGHT THIS TIME, DAMMIT!"
 

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Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 08-07-2012, 01:26 PM:
 
Man caught with weapons at 'Dark Knight' screening

quote:

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Man caught with weapons at 'Dark Knight' screening
By QMI AGENCY

An Ohio man is in custody after he allegedly tried to bring weapons and ammunition into a screening of The Dark Knight Rises in a Cleveland suburb on Saturday.

Police say an off-duty cop became suspicious when he saw a man carry a satchel into the Regal Cinema in Westlake and sit down by himself in the theatre showing the Batman movie half an hour before showtime, the Cleveland Plain Dealer reports.

Officer Jeremiah Bullins asked if he could search the man's bag and found a loaded Glock 9-mm handgun, two clips of bullets and three knives, as well as another knife on the man, police told the newspaper.

That led police to get a search warrant for a home, where they found rifles, handguns and what's being called "survivalist gear" like gas masks and bulletproof vests, the newspaper reports.

Scott Smith, 37, is charged with carrying a concealed weapon and three other weapons offences.

Police and many moviegoers are on edge after the mass shooting that left 12 dead and more than 50 people injured at a midnight screening of The Dark Knight Rises on July 20 in Aurora, Colo. James Holmes, 24, is charged with 24 counts of first-degree murder and 116 counts of attempted murder.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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"Copy-cat incidents." That just shows you how many crazy nuts there are in this country.

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quote:

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Oak Creek, Wisconsin (CNN) -- The gunman in the Wisconsin Sikh temple tragedy died from a self-inflicted wound to the head and not from a shot by a responding officer, the FBI said Wednesday.

Police previously said Wade Michael Page died after being shot by the officer. That shot in the stomach was potentially fatal, but Page died from the self-inflicted wound, said Teresa Carlson, special agent in charge for the FBI in Milwaukee.

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quote:

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B.C. man charged for Facebook threat to copy Colorado shootings

Ryan Lewis, 32, has been charged with uttering threats.

A 32-year-old B.C. man is facing charges after allegedly threatening to carry out a copycat of the Colorado movie theatre shootings that left 12 people dead.

Mounties in North Vancouver say Ryan Lewis "made significant death threats" on his Facebook page "to commit crimes similar to the recent shootings in Colorado."

Lewis was arrested Aug. 1 and charged with uttering threats. He was released from police custody on several conditions, including that he not have access to the internet.

"The police are committed to keeping our communities safe and take these types of threats very seriously," said North Vancouver RCMP Cpl. Richard De Jong.

"Social media is a powerful tool and can be used for good or bad. Comments and postings are not private and for public safety reasons, are taken seriously."

Twelve people died and 58 were wounded when a gunman opened fire on an audience attending the midnight premiere of The Dark Knight Rises last month in Aurora, Colo. James Holmes, a 24-year-old former University of Colorado graduate student, is in custody and charged with dozens of counts of first-degree murder and attempted murder.

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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They are not talking about the Sikh shooting they are talking about a guy that brought loaded guns in to Dark Knight Rises showing. The guns were in a tote bag so same movie and with a very possible intent to do harm. Hence copycat.

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quote:

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Nation's Sane People To Nation's Insane People: 'Please Stop Shooting Us'

WASHINGTON—In the aftermath of Sunday’s deadly shooting in which a white supremacist allegedly shot and killed six congregants at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, the nation’s psychologically sound populace issued a statement begging its insane counterparts to please, please stop shooting so many Americans. “Today we come together with a single voice, hoping to reach you with one very simple message: For the love of God, please stop firing your guns at us,” a statement from the sane read in part. “We don’t care if you’re a 22-year-old male with a history of psychological illness, a severely unhinged graduate student who fell through the cracks of our mental health care system, or an embittered middle-aged man convinced that religious minorities are threatening the fabric of America. All we ask is that you cease charging into rooms full of innocent people and raining down bullets on everyone in sight.” After making their urgent plea, the American people reportedly began stocking up on guns in the hopes of preventing future shootings from taking place.

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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Probable cause is only necessary if they don't ask permission.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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The fact that there ARE "copy-cat" incidents is an indicator of how many crazy nuts there are out there.

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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Chad but probable cause is not required for an officer to ask to see in your bag. He need have no reason at all and if you give permission then what he finds is certainly fair game.

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quote: Yahoo News

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SPARKS, Nev. (AP) — Police say a man accidently shot himself in the buttocks at a Nevada movie theater during a showing of "The Bourne Legacy."

Police in Sparks, Nev., say the 56-year-old man's injuries are not life-threatening and no others were hurt.

Authorities say the man had a permit to carry a concealed firearm. The man told officers the gun fell from his pocket Tuesday night as he was adjusting himself in the seat and that it discharged when it dropped to the floor.

Authorities say the case will be sent to the city attorney for possible charges.

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Netflix is looking better and better, or at least safer...
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-15-2012, 10:46 AM:
 
Yeah that's a great idea. Let's all stay cocooned in our homes.

Also, you're far MORE likely to get killed driving on any highway than you are in a movie theater so for God's sake, everyone stay off the roads.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-15-2012, 11:57 AM:
 
Don't forget George Metesky, the infamous Mad Bomber of New York City. He planted pipe bombs in movie theaters and train stations all over New York for sixteen years before the police caught him.

Just think all the damage somebody could do today if they had a mind to.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-15-2012, 08:37 PM:
 
We're just lucky that most people are law-abiding, at least when it comes to violence against others. (When it comes to obeying traffic laws the percentage probably isn't quite as good!)

 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-15-2012, 10:49 PM:
 
Just imagine the kinds of electronics that people have access to, these days, that Metesky didn't.

Any idiot with access to books on electronics or who knows how to Google can design a one-shot circuit and rig a mercury switch (or an electronic clinometer) to detect the angle at which the device rests.

Many theater seats have removable cushions. Some don't even need tools to remove. Once the cushion is removed, the bottom seat pan makes a perfect place to hide a fairly large object.

Now, in the dark, it would be fairly easy to remove the seat, plant an explosive device and replace the cushion completely unnoticed.

The device could sit there, indefinitely, until somebody sits down. The clinometer sets the one-shot circuit but doesn't detonate the bomb until the seat returns to the upright position.

So... A person sits down in the chair, totally unaware that they are sitting on a bomb. When the person inevitably gets up, either to leave the theater, to go to the bathroom or to go buy popcorn... BOOM!

A device like this is fairly trivial to make. When I took classes at Vo-Tech, during my high school years, we used to make things like this as pranks. Of course, we never even thought of using these to detonate bombs. It was usually a buzzer or something. One kid used an induction coil to make a "shocker."

Furthermore, I would never consider making a bomb for real. That's just not the kind of thing I do. No further discussion is necessary.

My point is that there are zillions of ways to do really bad things and there are plenty of bad people in the world to think up ways to do really bad things.

If a deranged person really wanted to live out the Batman fantasy, making hidden bombs would certainly fit in with the theme. Wouldn't it?

My point is that the danger of somebody bombing a movie theater is just as real as the danger of somebody shooting up the place and there HAVE BEEN bombings in movie theaters before. None of this is new.

My question is why are we suddenly so fixated on the dangers of bad people doing bad things in public places? It's been going on for a long time. Nobody seems to have cared until now.
 

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Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 08-16-2012, 12:08 AM:
 
Just imagine the myriads of possibilities anyone could take your life or mine away. It's going to happen sometime. So why worry about it? I'll live my life the way I want to, and if some crazy asshole wants to punch my clock, then that's what was meant to be. I've had a good life, and I'd like to keep it going as much as possible.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-16-2012, 01:35 AM:
 
I would never hurt anybody who isn't trying to hurt me first.

Your point is well taken but if somebody does try to hurt me or anybody else in my sphere of influence, I will do everything in my power to stop him, up to and including the use of deadly force if the situation warrants it.

The way I see things, there are too many people who are afraid to stand up to bullies and crazy people who do bad things. That tends to embolden bad people to do bad things because they don't fear the consequences. Mr. Holmes, our theater shooter, be he mentally ill or not, likely didn't consider that he could be killed in the process of carrying out his attack. The perception that there would be little or no consequence outside of going to jail likely spurred him on.

Does that mean we should be a nation of gun toting vigilantes? Nothing of the sort! But consider the terrorist attack on 9/11 where the passengers of Flight 93 rose up and fought back against the hijackers. There was an almost universal celebration of those men who fought back and, the popular belief was that this would deter any would-be terrorists from trying the same thing again.

Where is that sentiment now? Don't you think that, if it was still true, Holmes would have thought better of his plan?
 

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Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 08-16-2012, 09:53 AM:
 
What kind of a piece of crap gun was this guy who shot himself in the ass carrying that it went off when it hit the floor? My guess is that he pulled a Plaxico. The gun fell out, he fumbled around trying to reach under him and grab it, accidentally squeezed the trigger, then said it went off when it hit the floor because he was embarassed. Not even the cheapest Kel-Tec I've ever shot would fire if dropped.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-16-2012, 12:20 PM:
 
Ironically, Glocks are a lot less prone to accidental discharge than people think they are.

While many firearms can suffer accidental discharge due to slamfire, a sudden jolt or something unexpectedly catching on the trigger, very few will misfire if subjected to an average drop to the ground. Safeties on handguns often block the travel of the firing pin as well as lock the trigger mechanism.

Many people dislike the Glock because it doesn't have a separate safety. The safety is in the trigger. Because of that, they say it's likely to go off but I have seen Glocks get bumped or dropped and there is even a video on the internet, floating around, where a guy ties his loaded Glock to a rope and drags it behind his pickup truck over a dirt road for a mile without discharging. (I would never do that but it is still funny as Hell!)

Point being that you really have to fuck up, pretty badly, to suffer an accidental discharge even under some pretty extreme conditions.

Anybody who causes an accidental firearm discharge in public should be fined and, at minimum, have his carry permit suspended for a year, if not permanently revoked. He should also have to pay to repair any damage he caused and, if anybody suffers bodily injury, that should be a separate charge, all together.
 

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Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 08-16-2012, 05:33 PM:
 

quote: Randy Stankey

---

The way I see things, there are too many people who are afraid to stand up to bullies and crazy people who do bad things. That tends to embolden bad people to do bad things because they don't fear the consequences.

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quote: Randy Stankey

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Mr. Holmes, our theater shooter, be he mentally ill or not, likely didn't consider that he could be killed in the process of carrying out his attack. The perception that there would be little or no consequence outside of going to jail likely spurred him on.

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quote: Randy Stankey

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Point being that you really have to fuck up, pretty badly, to suffer an accidental discharge even under some pretty extreme conditions.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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it makes such monsters more dangerous if they are willing to die

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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In one respect I think it makes such monsters more dangerous if they are willing to die in the process of carrying out their attack.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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I just wish we could figure a way to convince these psychos to just go ahead and take their own life FIRST and not bother innocent people. But then of course it wouldn't be making a bold, idiotic statement.

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quote:

---

Bomb threat to Carmike Cinemas chain over 'Expendables 2' prompts police searches nationwide

WLEX

Carmike Cinemas in Lexington, Kentucky, were closed briefly due to a bomb threat Friday, but police gave the all-clear after a search turned up no explosives.
By NBC News staff

Law enforcement agencies across the country are responding to a bomb threat aimed at Columbus, Ga.-based Carmike Cinemas, which has 236 theaters in 35 states.

The threat was aimed at all the theaters showing "The Expendables 2," Carmike spokesman Terrell Mayton told NBC News.

The threat was left in a phone message at the Carmike Cinema's corporate office Friday morning by a person identfying himself as a theater vendor, Mayton said.

The theater chain swiftly coordinated with local law-enforcement agencies, he said. None of the theaters was open for the day yet and heightened security measures will remain in place as they show movies, Mayton said.

"We're getting lots of calls and emails of 'all-clear,'" he said.

The Wilmington, N.C., Police Department cleared the scene on Cinema Drive after investigating a bomb threat, NBC station WECT reported. Officers walked through the building with employees, looking for anything suspicious. They did not find anything and reopened a road shut down during the investigation.

“Really the only prudent thing is to do the search. …Nothing was found,” police spokeswoman Lucy Crockett told the Wilmington Star News.

Watch US News crime videos on NBCNews.com

Bomb-sniffing dogs searched the Carmike theaters in Lexington, Ky., but no explosives were found, NBC station WLEX confirmed.

NBCChicago.com showed aerial video of law enforcement agencies setting up outside a theater in Morris, Ill., southwest of Chicago.

On Thursday, Columbus police arrested an armed man who tried to sneak into a Carmike Cinemas theater pre-screening of “Expendables 2.” Joshua L. Vardeman, 23, faces three misdemeanor charges, according to the Columbus Ledger-Enquirer.

A federal investigator told NBC News the gunman and the bomb threat appear unrelated.

“Expendables 2,” which opened Friday, Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger star in a sequel about bad-ass geezers with Dolph Lundgren, Jean-Claude Van Damme, Chuck Norris, Jet Li, Jason Statham, Randy Couture, Terry Crews and Bruce Willis. In this one, the crew reunites for what they think is an easy paycheck, but when one of the team is murdered on the job, the quest for revenge puts them deep in enemy territory.

Review: “The Expendables 2”

This story includes reporting by NBC News' chief justice correspondent Pete Williams and senior writer Jim Gold.

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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In the old days they used payphones.

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quote:

---

From about eight feet away, the officers confronted Mr. Johnson and when he pulled out his gun, they opened fire, shooting a total of 16 rounds. Mr. Johnson was killed and nine bystanders were wounded, perhaps all by police bullets.

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quote:

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By John Lott

With 12 dead and 58 wounded, the July 20th shooting at the Cinemark Century 16 Theater in Aurora, Colorado was sure to result in a lawsuit. On Friday, the first suit was announced, claiming Cinemark has “primary responsibility.” The theater did have responsibility for the attack, but not for the reasons that the lawyers bringing the case think.

The lawyer bringing the suit, Attorney Marc Bern, with the New York city law firm of Napoli, Bern, Ripka and Scholonik, suggested the theater should have had security guards the night of the attack. Yet, checking bags or metal detectors at the front of the theater that night wouldn’t have prevented the attack. The killer brought his guns in through an emergency backdoor.

Armed security guards at movie theaters are rare in low crime areas, such as Aurora, especially on less crowded weeknights. And, with an audience fleeing the theater, armed guards may have experienced difficulty getting quickly inside.

So why did the killer pick the Cinemark theater? You might think that it was the one closest to the killer’s apartment. Or, that it was the one with the largest audience.

Yet, neither explanation is right. Instead, out of all the movie theaters within 20 minutes of his apartment showing the new Batman movie that night, it was the only one where guns were banned. In Colorado, individuals with permits can carry concealed handgun in most malls, stores, movie theaters, and restaurants. But private businesses can determine whether permit holders can carry guns on their private property.

Most movie theaters allow permit holders carrying guns. But the Cinemark movie theater was the only one with a sign posted at the theater’s entrance.

A simple web search and some telephone calls reveal how easily one can find out how Cinemark compared to other movie theaters. According to mapquest.com and movies.com, there were seven movie theaters showing "The Dark Knight Rises" on July 20th within 20 minutes of the killer’s apartment at 1690 Paris St, Aurora, Colorado. At 4 miles and an 8-minute car ride, the Cinemark’s Century Theater wasn't the closest. Another theater was only 1.2 miles (3 minutes) away.

There was also a theater just slightly further away, 10 minutes. It is the "home of Colorado's largest auditorium," according to their movie hotline greeting message. The potentially huge audience ought to have been attractive to someone trying to kill as many people as possible. Four other theaters were 18 minutes, two at 19 minutes, and 20 minutes away. But all of those theaters allowed permitted concealed handguns.

So why would a mass shooter pick a place that bans guns? The answer should be obvious, though it apparently is not clear to the media – disarming law-abiding citizens leaves them as sitting ducks.

Concealed carry is much more frequent than many people believe. With over 4 percent of the adult population in Colorado having concealed handgun permits, a couple hundred adults in Cinemark’s movie theater #9 means that there is an extremely high probability that at least one adult would have a permit.

Unfortunately, some have still not figured this out. A manager at the Harkins Northfield 18 five miles from the killer’s apartment told me, the theater changed its policy and started banning concealed handguns following the Cinemark attack.

The recent Colorado and Sikh Temple shootings are by no means the first times that killers targeted gun-free zones. We have witnessed mass public shootings in such places as the Westroads Mall in Omaha, Nebraska and the Trolley Square Mall in Salt Lake City, Utah. In both cases, guns were banned at those particular malls, but not at other similar venues that allowed guns and were spared. With just one single exception, the attack in Tucson last year, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.

And remember the 1999 Columbine attack in Colorado. Few appreciate that Dylan Klebold, one of the two Columbine killers, was following Colorado legislation that would have let citizens carry a concealed handgun. Presumably, he feared being stopped during his attack by someone with a weapon. In fact, the Columbine attack occurred the very day that final passage was scheduled.

Gun-free zones are a magnet for those who want to kill many people quickly. Even the most ardent gun control advocate would never put “Gun-Free Zone” signs on their home. Let’s stop finally putting them elsewhere.

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quote:

---

Armed security guards at movie theaters are rare in low crime areas, such as Aurora

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quote: Lyle Romer

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No amount of gun laws will ever stop the bad guys or deranged guys from killing.

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quote: Lyle Romer

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The anti gun folks always laugh at that and talk about the yahoos wanting it to be like the wild west.

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Of course, in the "Wild West" once a town was established you usually had to check in your guns before going into town (contrary to about every movie or tv show ever made).

Personally, I think open carry with samurai swords would be much more effective. Lop off someone's arm and you really get their attention
 

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Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 09-12-2012, 09:00 PM:
 

quote: Edward Havens

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Yet, there are countries like Australia, France, Poland and the UK with stricter handgun laws that have homicide by handgun rates at less than 0.50% per 100,000 capita (UK is 0.07). America is 4.14, for comparison's sake. But hey, at least we aren't Columbia ((51.77) or El Salvador (50.36).

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quote: Lyle Romer

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Heck it wouldn't be all that difficult to pump carbon monoxide into an auditorium if you really wanted to.

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quote: Lyle Romer

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I don't have time to research all the cities with strict gun laws right now but Washington, DC has extremely strict gun laws and the homicide rate there is 21.9 (2010 data).

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quote: Lyle Romer

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Like Bobby said, the violent crime issue in the US is cultural (and much of it inner city/gang related) and doesn't have anything to do with gun restrictions. If you could magically eliminate all guns from the US people would be stabbing eachother to death.

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quote: Lyle Romer

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Deranged nuts like the guy that shot up the Dark Knight Rises showing would do the same thing with explosives or poison gas or something if they couldn't get guns. Heck it wouldn't be all that difficult to pump carbon monoxide into an auditorium if you really wanted to.

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quote: Edward Havens

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That's justifiable gun ownership, and that's what I am for. I am not an anti-gun nut. I am for justifiable gun ownership.

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quote: Edward Havens

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Want to get a gun in Sydney? It's going to take some effect.

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quote: Edward Havens

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Why do 300,000,000 Americans needs 260,000,000-280,000,000 guns anyway? What foreign threat has Twin Falls ID or Rogers AR seen since those states joined the Union?

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quote: Edward Havens

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The Second Amendment has been so bastardized by the pro-gun lobbies that even the Supreme Court has ruled the word "militia" in the Second Amendment is for all intent and purpose meaningless in this discussion.

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quote: Lyle Romer

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The 2nd amendment clearly states "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed".

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quote: Scott Norwood

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Which is to say that handguns and rifles would qualify, but that intercontinental ballistic missiles would not

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quote: Lyle Romer

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It doesn't need to be bastardised. It doesn't matter what the justification part of the amendment says. The 2nd amendment clearly states "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed".

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quote: Lyle Romer

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What is the gun murder rate in Switzerland? A huge percentage of their population owns guns (a ton being assault weapons).

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quote: Edward Havens

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"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

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If you really deconstruct that sentence, it says that we need armed forces to secure our freedoms. What does a militia consist of? PEOPLE, of course. And anyone in the population can be a member of the armed forces, if they are physically capable and not mentally challenged.

Therefore it could be argued that the 2nd amendment only applies to the armed forces, not to everybody.

One thing for sure, it does NOT say that the people have "the right to keep and bear the biggest baddest gun they can find."

It's too bad the framers didn't write "to keep and bear muskets." Then we would have a clear definition of what's allowed, and there would be lots of jobs at musket factories nationwide.
 

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Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 09-14-2012, 04:59 PM:
 
For me, a militia is what you have when one do not have what we have in a standing Armed Forces (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines). A militia is like our National Guard when one do not have what we have in a standing Armed Forces. The National Guard is a well regulated militia. A bunch of random people who do not belong to the National Guard or any of the Armed Forces are not a well regulated militia.

I can see owning a firearm like a hunting rifle, if you live out in the middle of Colorado or Wyoming and regularly use it to hunt game for sustenance. I can see owning a firearm like an assault rifle if you are an active member of one of our Armed Forces or the National Guard. I can see owning a firearm if you are a police officer, a licensed security officer or a member of a governmental unit like the FBI or the CIA or the Secret Service that would require the carrying of a firearm in the line of duty. Those are justifiable reasons for gun ownership.

"I need a gun because there are bad people out there with guns" is not a justifiable reason, and ignores the bigger problems of society. We know why there are bad people out there with guns, and until we fix those problems, we'll never be able to fix our gun issues. Sadly, I see the end of the American Empire before that happens.
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-14-2012, 05:50 PM:
 
I think the important overlooked phrase in the 2nd Amendment ins "well regulated".
Who's going to do the regulating? Doesn't say, therefore leaving it up to whatever gov't entity chooses to do so.
What type of regulation? Even more open to interpretation. Some carefully crafted regulation could cut the gun ownership rates to zero.
Agree or disagree with gun control (and we do have all sorts of gun control) the crafters of the 2nd Amendment clearly were not opposed. We just bicker over the application.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-14-2012, 11:47 PM:
 
So, Eddie, what would you do if someone (or more than just one person) broke into your home and started raping your wife or daughter? Just wait for the police? Try to rationalize then them? Politely ask that they please remove their erect penis from your wife's anus? Would it not be justifiable to shoot them?
 

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Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 09-14-2012, 11:59 PM:
 
Joey, I lived in Longmont and Berthoud for a while, so I know how nutty Colorado people are for their guns. But believe it or not, there are other weapons of defense besides firearms.

But if someone was raping my daughter, I'd grab my baseball bat and smash him in the back, since, you know, most of his focus is going to be facing my daughter. And then once he was off my daughter, I'd bash his head in. And if my baseball bat wasn't close enough, I'd use my Ray Bourque-signed hockey stick. Or a knife. Or a guitar.

If the same guy was trying to rape my wife, he's probably be dead by her hand before I could intervene. When we were living in Brooklyn about ten years ago, some guy tried to mug her when she got off the subway train. She pulled the stake she keeps in her purse (yes, she keeps a stake in her purse), and the guy ran. Anyone stupid enough to try something bad with her deserves the hell they'll get from her. One of the reasons I married her.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-15-2012, 01:07 AM:
 
Sorry, but a Ray Bourque-signed hockey stick isn't gonna do it. You'd need at least a Wayne Gretzky or a Patrick Roy.
 

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Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 09-15-2012, 04:07 PM:
 
Not to minimize rapists, but what about little children?
Parents' magazines caution urban parents arranging play dates for their kids, to contact the parents and inquire whether they keep firearms in their home. I read one account of a little kid who climbed on a chair to reach a loaded gun on the top of the fridge to show it to his playmates. In their play the gun discharged, killing the playmate. Of course, local regs require
lockboxes, trigger locks, etc. and responsible gun owners know better than to leave a gun unsecured. But those who keep guns out of fear seem to need them loaded and on their persons or under their pillow at all times. There must be gadzillions of unsecured guns and seemingly whole populations of people with neurotic fears, afraid of sexual intruders, here in the "home of the brave."
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-15-2012, 04:22 PM:
 
That's not the fault of guns, that's the fault of idiot parents. You don't keep a gun within a child's reach and YOU DON'T KEEP IT LOADED, especially in that scenario. Probably with the safety off, too. So should we make laws because some people are extreme idiots? Should we cater to the lowest common denominator?

I can't upload this here because it's a GIF that's a bit too big, but check this out (don't worry, it's not gory). The problem is incredibly stupid people. Unfortunately people will always find ways to be stupid and kids like these will hopefully take them out.
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-15-2012, 04:28 PM:
 
We can, however, make laws that say you (owner of the gun in the gif) are demonstrably too stupid to have a gun in your house.

Treat them like a sexoffender. Neither the gun owner, nor anyone in the house, is allowed to own a gun after something like that. All licenses revoked, all firearms confiscated.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-15-2012, 06:31 PM:
 
But therein lies the question: How do we determine the stupidity? Nobody thinks that they're stupid. everyone thinks they're smart. Except me. I know I'm smart.
 

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Posted by Brent Francis (Member # 5008) on 09-15-2012, 06:46 PM:
 
Do the rest of us have to hear about Peni**s, Anu*es, or the never-ending gun debate? This is a non political board, kapeesh?
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-15-2012, 09:31 PM:
 

quote: Brent Francis

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Do the rest of us have to hear about Peni**s, Anu*es, or the never-ending gun debate? This is a non political board, kapeesh?

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quote:

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But therein lies the question: How do we determine the stupidity? Nobody thinks that they're stupid. everyone thinks they're smart. Except me. I know I'm smart. [Smile]

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quote: Brent Francis

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Peni**s, Anu*es

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quote: Brent Francis

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Peni**s, Anu*es

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quote: Joe Redifer

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Thank you for censoring those scary, grown-up words

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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Well since the original subject had pretty much petered out (sorry!) and nobody is bashing anybody's political agenda, the thread falls under regulations in my view.

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quote: Brent Francis

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Do the rest of us have to hear about Peni**s, Anu*es, or the never-ending gun debate?

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quote: Edward Havens

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4) Regardless of whatever country you are from, you have the freedom to read or not read any topic on these boards.

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Nobody has a gun pointed at your head, making you read this message thread. Do they?
 

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Posted by Brent Francis (Member # 5008) on 09-16-2012, 09:37 PM:
 
Oh dear, oh dear. Touchy are we?
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-16-2012, 10:36 PM:
 
No, I thought it would be funny as hell to say, "Nobody has a gun pointed at your head," in a discussion about people who go around shooting other people with guns.
 

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Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 09-22-2012, 12:07 PM:
 
First lawsuits filed against theatre in 'Dark Knight' shooting

quote:

---

DENVER - Three Colorado moviegoers who were wounded when a gunman opened fire at a July screening of “The Dark Knight Rises” on Friday sued the owner of the theatre, Cinemark USA, accusing it of failing to provide adequate security, their lawyers said.

The action marks the first known civil lawsuits filed over the July 20 shootings at a suburban Denver screening of the Batman movie that killed 12 people and wounded 58 others.

James Holmes, a 24-year-old former neuroscience graduate student at the University of Colorado, has been charged with murder and attempted murder in the case.

“Readily available security procedures, security equipment and security personnel would likely have prevented or deterred the gunman from accomplishing his planned assault on the theatre’s patrons,” the law firm of Keating, Wagner, Polidori and Free said in a written statement.

Representatives of Cinemark could not immediately be reached for comment.

On the day of the shooting, prosecutors allege Holmes bought a ticket to the movie, left the theatre through an exit door, propping it open on his way out. He then returned to the theatre clad in ballistic protective gear and armed with multiple weapons, opening fire on the crowd, prosecutors say.


Public defender Daniel King has said his client suffers from mental illness and sought help before the shootings.

In the lawsuit filed in Denver federal court, victims Joshua Nowlan, Denise Traynom and Brandon Axelrod claim the theatre chain was aware of previous criminal activity at or near the cinema including “assaults and robberies” and at least one other shooting involving gang members.

“Although the theatre was showing a midnight premiere of the movie and was expecting large crowds of people to attend the midnight showing, no security personnel were present for that showing,” the lawsuit said.

Nowlan suffered disabling injuries to his left leg and his right arm, which was nearly severed from the gunshots, the lawsuit said. Traynom was shot in the buttocks and Axelrod was shot in the right knee and ankle.

The lawsuit also states “there was no action taken by theatre employees to safely evacuate the many people” in the theatre once the shooting spree got underway.

The judge presiding over the criminal case ruled on Friday that some documents in the court file can be publicly released, but arrest and search warrants that detail the specifics of the crime will remain sealed because of the ongoing investigation.

Also on Friday, Aurora Mayor Steve Hogan said that Cinemark sometime next year will reopen the theatre, which has been closed since the shooting.

“The theatre has been a valued part of our community for many years,” Hogan said in a statement. “I am confident Cinemark will continue to remain sensitive to victims, their families, their employees and our community throughout their process of remodelling and reopening.”

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quote: Frank Cox

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I guess we're supposed to have airport-style checkpoints and security guards at all entrances and exits now....

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Which is what's inevitably going to happen now thanks to those dumb-ass lawyers.

I don't care if you had a hundred security guards present, if someone that stupid wants to do his deed, he's gonna do it.

Oh, and if those security measures get mandated into play, get ready to pay $25+ for a single ticket to cover the added costs.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-22-2012, 01:15 PM:
 

quote: Frank Cox

---

I guess we're supposed to have airport-style checkpoints and security guards at all entrances and exits now....

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quote: Randy Stankey

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To be honest, it looks like a slam dunk for the plaintiffs to me.

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quote: Randy Stankey

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To be honest, it looks like a slam dunk for the plaintiffs to me.

---

I was thinking exactly the opposite. In fact, I'm betting on a dismissal.

It's very rare that courts break balls over random and utterly unforeseen acts like this. To recover anything from Cinemark, the plaintiffs would have to demonstrate that the theatre staff should have foreseen precisely this incident, to the point of being tipped off in advance that the guy was on his way over, and then sat on their hands and did nothing. Either that, or they will have to show a repeating pattern of violence at this place, such as constant fights in the lobby and in the parking lot and such that would have demonstrated that the theatre was a magnet for this kind of problem and required everyday security.

To draw a comparison to another mass murder: in 1987, a guy walked into a McDonalds in San Ysidro, California and opened fire, killing 21. McDonalds was sued by the victims families, but the case was summarily dismissed, then dismissed again on appeal. The ruling was that no business has the duty to protect its patrons from a sudden and random act of violence like this unless it knows for a fact that it is about to occur. McDonalds paid nothing.

Really, the only reason people are suing Cinemark is that they are the only people with any money in the case. There're not going to get anything out of the idiot himself. I would't be surprised if they go after WB, and then the property owners.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-22-2012, 03:55 PM:
 
I agree with your assessments but I would also say that, precisely the events you cite, the shooting at McDonald's in 1987 and the several highly publicized shootings in the recent past, constitute notice. Couple that with the fact that the theater has had security in the past, it could be said that they knew that people could cause trouble. Because they have had security in the past, it is clear that they knew or should have known that there could be problems.

The scope and severity of any past problems doesn't matter. That they had problems in the past and that they needed security officers to deal with them shows that they knew there was a potential for trouble which they ignored to the detriment of their customers.

Thinking about what you said, maybe it isn't such a slam dunk.

However, I will stand on what I said above. The article above, released by the plaintiff's representatives, no doubt, is merely positioning and laying out their case to establish the five pillars of their claim: Notice, duty to act, failure to act and harm as a result of that failure.

I think, if the case fails, it will fail on the fourth pillar. As you have alluded to, it will be hard to prove that the harm came as a RESULT of Cinemark's failure to act.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-22-2012, 04:16 PM:
 

quote: Jonathan M. Crist

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I think the question of liability will turn on why Holmes chose this theatre - as opposed to others in the town closer to where he lived

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quote:

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the theater management should have been on notice that criminal activity has occurred in the area and they knew or should have known that an incident in their theater was likely,

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There is potential for "criminal activity" in ANY area all the time! That's the only thing the crooks have going for them...the element of surprise.

How "likely" is it that a crime is going to occur in one dark auditorium in a big multiplex in a big city? About a million to one, or less. How is management supposed to "be aware" of that?

Of course, I guess it's just as likely some goon will shoot up a movie theater as it is a terrorist will try to carry a bomb onto a plane. So I guess we'd better equip every movie theater -- wait, make that every stadium, mall, school, fairground, or any other public gathering space in the U.S. with TSA-types, not to stop crimes so muchg, but to avoid the frivolous lawsuits.

Look on the bright side...it'll create lots of jobs in the security industry.

But seriously, all it would take to prevent this same kind of thing happening would be to equip the back exit with an alarm (and maybe a camera), and only allow people to use that exit in an emergency.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-22-2012, 04:52 PM:
 
The insurance company will probably agree to "insured limits" and that will be about it. Cheaper than litigation. . . and they keep the Cinemark national account. Louis
 

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Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 09-22-2012, 04:57 PM:
 
How do you stop people from using an exit? Even if it's marked "Emergency exit only", I'm sure someone will open the door to leave after the show and as soon as it's open the other fifty people behind him will go out that way too.

Earlier this summer I had a new sidewalk poured just outside of my fire exit door and I had to get someone to sit in the front row beside that door before, during and after that night's show to intercept anyone heading toward that door and tell them to go out the other way. But I wouldn't want to have to do that every night.

(In a real emergency that door was still usable; it would have just damaged the new cement outside.)
 

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Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 09-22-2012, 06:28 PM:
 

quote: Louis Bornwasser

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The insurance company will probably agree to "insured limits" and that will be about it.

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