Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Need a Video Switcher

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-29-2012, 11:17 PM:

Mercyhurst has begun showing movies in another venue on campus and everything there is on Blu-Ray/DVD.

I have a Sony Blu-Ray player connected to the Eiki video projector via HDMI.

I also have a T-Net 300 media player which is used to play pre-show material and trailers. It can output its images via HDMI or RGB/HV component video. (I am using HDMI.)

Currently, I have to play the pre-show content on the T-Net then black out the video projector while I swap the HDMI between the T-Net and the Blu-Ray.

It's clunky.

It's probably not good for the equipment. (I don't think HDMI is supposed to be hot-swappable. Is it?)

I can't play trailers, PSAs or concession snipes without being able to cleanly switch to the feature on the Blu-Ray.

In order to do this the right way, I need some kind of a switcher. What products should I be looking at?

Two other factors:
1) We are probably going to be adding more equipment so it should have at least three HDMI inputs.

2) The T-Net's resolution is set at 720p but the Blu-Ray is 1080p. This is done because content is uploaded to the T-Net via the college's network. Setting the resolution to 720 cuts bandwidth nearly in half. I'll need something that can make the switch without causing the projector to choke when the video resolution changes. If I have to, I can switch the T-Net's resolution up to 1080 but Mordac will bitch at me if I clog up his network too much. (But if I do have to do that, he can just suck it. [Wink]

)

It doesn't necessarily need to have seamless switching or active scaling so long as it doesn't make the projector choke when the switch is made. I can just make sure that all my material fades to black at the end. If I make the switch when the screen is black, nobody will notice.

Any suggestions for a device to do this job?

I looked at a Gefen Cinema Scaler but I think that would be overkill. It's expensive and, besides, it doesn't have enough inputs for what I need to do.

Posted by Michael Voiland (Member # 5386) on 09-29-2012, 11:29 PM:

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=9556 - Gefen 4x1 switches with rs232 control.

your still going to run into an issue with the projector doing a little blinking as the source changes hdmi is not really meant for commercial use. If you could do 1080i component you might be in luck. Or just use 2 inputs on the projector.

-Mike.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-02-2012, 08:45 AM:

Extron probably has something that will work. The picture will definitely roll or otherwise look odd during the switch if the resolution changes and/or if the two playback devices are not genlocked.

What you really want is a seamless switcher/scaler. The popular one around here is the Analog Way "Pulse LE." It works fine and can switch both picture and sound; it will also scale everything to your preferred resolution (typically the native resolution of the projector) and frame rate.

The Folsom Image Pro HD is also good, but is not HDCP-compliant.

You do not want the Gefen Cinema Scaler. I was not impressed with it and the one that I used had HDCP issues.

Personally, I think that I would just use two different inputs on the projector and install a box that will output RS232 commands to the projector and IR commands to the player that will (in order) close the douser, wait one second, switch inputs, wait another second, "play" the Blu-Ray, and open the douser. This way, the operator would start the intro thing and open the video douser manually. Then, he would cue the Blu-Ray and leave it in "pause" mode. At the end of the intro video, he would hit the "changeover" button to do everything in sequence to select the proper input and start the Blu-Ray.

Look at the Mediatech and Hall Electronics product lines; both companies have some interesting products that can automate RS232 and/or IR commands.

Edit: I should add that the Analog Way unit mentioned above has a "monitor" output as well, but would require an HDCP-compliant monitor if you use it for this purpose. The Folsom (Barco) does not have a separate monitor output. I would probably just run composite to the monitor from the video player and the BR player, but some BR players cannot output both analog and digital at the same time. Argh.

[ 10-02-2012, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Scott Norwood ]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-05-2012, 02:13 PM:

I can't use another input on the projector. There are only three and they are all being used.

This projector is set up in a multi-purpose venue.
One input is connected to the computer port of the on-stage lectern for presenting PowerPoint. The second is connected to a DVD player at the lectern. The third goes up to the booth for presenting movies.

It's a cluster fuck. I didn't design the system. Our contractor did. (The one I have mentioned before.)

I have been looking around at all the switchers you guys have suggested and more. The seamless switcher is the best option but they aren't going to go for that. They don't want to spend any more money on this. They think they have a "great" system already but that's because the contractor told them so. Nobody thought about real world use. They only considered the lowest common denominator, "idiot proof," way.

As they say, "If you design a system that's so simple even an idiot would use it, only an idiot would WANT to use it." [Wink]

Now, I have to deal with cleaning up this mess. Frankly, unless the tune changes, I'm not inclined to spend much time on this.

I have been looking at some product from IO Gear:
http://www.iogear.com/product/GHDSW4/

It looks interesting. Basic functionality. No seamless fades. No bells and whistles.

If it will allow change overs without blinking the screen, more's the better but, if not, I can just go to black or close the projector shutter.

Sorry to sound so negative but this is what I have to deal with. [Shrug]

IHTFP.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-05-2012, 02:31 PM:

Randy:

Here is the latest version of the one scaler I found to work well with HDMI and video projectors:

KRAEMER VP-437xl Scaler This model adds a few new features, including ethernet control, as well as RS-232 and IR. It has a feature very important, and that is time base correction. (Minimizes/eliminates image dropouts).

The older VP-436 (now discontinued, but check Amazon and other vendors who may still have them in stock.)has many cool features, including a reliable image black mode. It is controllable via simple RS-232 commands and IR.

The VP-436 also allowed monitoring with a VGA monitor, a nice touch.

Yes it is a bit pricey but in cases of scalers for Pro use you really do get what you paid for. Any cheap or odd ball brands tend to be very unreliable or unstable. Not worth it in a pro venue.

I would not use the IO gear in a pro environment, it is simply a switch (no better than swapping cables) and is prone to HDMI glitching.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-05-2012, 03:35 PM:

I think I like the Kramer.

It has two HDMI inputs. That's what I need now. With the other formats available it should be fairly future proof.

I like the idea of ethernet control. I'm using a computer to control the T-Net. It would be handy to control both that way.

Too bad there isn't a way to control the Sony DVD/Blu-Ray player via ethernet. (Or is there?) That would make everything operate from a nice, central location.

Looking around, I see the unit can be had for $1,000 or less.

I'll send the link to our contractor. If I can convince him, he can convince them.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-05-2012, 05:08 PM:

You never know wether hard switching between HDMI sources towards a projector causes garbage or flashing unless you tried. Because of the serial data transmission and HDCP involved, switching usually takes some time, but from my experience, rarely produces garbage, because the HDMI input of the projector usually needs a few frames to sync anyway.

Try a cheap hardware HDMI switcher first. We have a simple mechanical switcher between our BluRay Player and projector (and preview monitor), and never have screen garbage or flashing.

The projector goes black for 2-3 seconds, then returns with the new source.

BTW - the recent breed of BluRay Players can be network controlled. E.g. the manufacturer offers Android or iPhone apps using the DLNA DMR interface.

The OPPO player has RS232 control.

- Carsten

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 10-05-2012, 09:21 PM:

Randy,

What you have and are describing is a "PHD" system. A friend and department head at the local university wanted a simple camera. The clerk at the camera store asked what the professor wanted. He then went to the shelf and brought out the simplest camera in stock.

"Here you are, a "PHD" camera.

What is "PHD" you ask?

Push Here Dummy!

This is what your digital projection system has become. My apologies to the many Professors that are really techno-savvy.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-06-2012, 12:16 AM:

I needed a laugh today! [Smile]

Thanks.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-06-2012, 06:39 PM:

My experience with switching to/from an HDCP source is that you may get a signal sometimes and sometimes you may just get noise. I wish I had a nickel for every time I had to reboot my Bluray player to restore signal. [puke]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-06-2012, 10:22 PM:

I've never had a Blu-Ray player choke up once a disk has been loaded unless the disk is dirty or scratched. Blu-Ray is a lot more sensitive to dirt or scratches than DVDs.

Why do people insist on taking a disk out of the package to look at it even if they don't intend to play it? I don't know how many times people have given me, supposedly, "brand new" disks to play that have had fingerprints all over them. [Roll Eyes]

I have had Blu-Rays that flat out refuse to load, even brand new, out of the box, untouched and perfectly clean disks.

We have two Blu-Ray players of different makes, just for this reason. A Panasonic and a Sony.

I have seen disks that won't play in the Sony but will play in the Panasonic and vice versa. Again, untouched, clean disks.

Yes, both players have the lastest firmware updates and they were both plugged in to an internet connection at the time.

Even though I have never had a Blu-Ray player lock up upon changeover, I must admit that they were all connected to the projector via an Extron seamless switcher. Their outputs were component R/G/B, as well.

HDMI is, admittedly, a new wrinkle for me.

Fingers crossed...

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 10-07-2012, 06:34 PM:

I use a DVDO Edge in my home system. It does everything you posted that you want to do. This is an older discontinued model, their current switcher/processors can be found on the DVDO web page.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-07-2012, 09:44 PM:

Mitchell, at that price range one is better off getting professional gear for use in a commercial environment. At your home you are very unlikely to run into the variations in quality of media that one will like in Randy's case. I learned this the hard way at UC Irvine.

Bottom line is this, however: HDMI is NOT in any way, shape, or form a system suitable for professional use. It was designed to be deliberately "dumbed down" so home audiophiles can handle connecting a system with more than one source.

Sadly the idiots so concerned with piracy have mandated that RGB and the like are no longer available on dvd and blu ray players. (My system at UCI is all RGB, I have avoided HDMI for all but the final link from the Kraemer scaler to the CP2210.)

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-07-2012, 10:10 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
At your home you are very unlikely to run into the variations in quality of media that one will like in Randy's case. I learned this the hard way at UC Irvine.

He's not just whistling Dixie!

You would never believe the crap people try to hand me, expecting me to play it!

One woman handed me a CD that she had burned from iTunes and was bitching that the disk wouldn't play. It took me approximately 0.68 seconds to figure out why: She had written the title of the disk in black Sharpie marker on the playing surface of the disk!

Okay... A bottle of alcohol and a Kimwipe solved that problem but this story is indicative of what I go through on nearly every show.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-12-2012, 06:18 PM:

Randy, I'm not talking about "disc read errors" -- I'm talking about establishing and maintaining a stable HDMI connection.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-12-2012, 06:39 PM:

Manny my handsome studmuffin, you are missing one important point: HDMI needs to reestablish its "handshaking" any time the video singal is switched..or drops out due to media problems. ANY glitch in the video makes HDMI disconnect the handshaking process..and depending on the gear the resulting blackout can last a second up to several seconds or even require one to reboot the equipment.

So he is most definitely talking about maintaining a stable HDMI connection. [Smile]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-12-2012, 07:01 PM:

I have not had HDMI connections go bad or stop working unless the cable is bad or isn't plugged in properly but I have had the entire player just lock up. The eject button wouldn't even work or anything. Neither the remote nor the panel controls would work.

I had to take the player off line, pull the plug and count to ten. Then I had to power the player back on, take the disk out, reinsert it and start the disk again.

This did happen on a burned disk that somebody made on Windoze Media Slayer. That might have been the cause. I don't know, for sure. I was in the middle of a gig with a full house at the time. The disk was given to me by a lecturer who wanted me to play this video as an adjunct of his talk.

Of course, everybody was looking back at me as if to say, "WTF?"