Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Unwell 1999 Honda Civic

This is topic Unwell 1999 Honda Civic - thoughts appreciated in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006818

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-30-2013, 12:45 PM:

Last summer my fiancee's car started to act up. The speedometer would start to bounce up and down uncontrollably, while at the same time the electric door locking would constantly lock and unlock the doors in an endless loop. After about 30 seconds of this, the speedo would settle at zero, but the car would continue to work normally in all other respects. When the car was next started from cold, the speedo would work for the first 10-20 minutes of driving, and then start to act up again.

After a couple of weeks of this, the engine suddenly stopped in the middle of one of these episodes. It would not restart immediately, but when she tried again after a couple of minutes it did so. She drove it straight to the garage that normally services it, who said that they 'did a computer test on it' (by which I'm guessing they meant plugged a fault code reader in), diagnosed a 'bad capacitor' and replaced it.

But this didn't solve the problem - the episodes started happening again - and the garage wanted several hundred dollars to go through it with a fine tooth comb. At this point (September last year), she bought a new car. The old one has been sitting in the garage ever since.

We had a talk about what to do with it a couple of nights ago, and decided that I would have one go at trying to diagnose the fault before we admitted defeat and gave it away to charity (as a 14 year-old car with 145k miles, it would probably be impossible to sell with the fault). The car is otherwise in very good condition - not even a trace of corrosion on the bodywork, and it had a new battery, radiator and four new tyres in the year before the fault happened - so we would at least like to have a shot at fixing it. So I've just given it a thorough visual examination of everything I can without jacking it up (we don't have any jack or axle stands in the garage) - all connection modules, fluid leaks and hose joints etc.), and some looking at online forums, and established the following.

Problems I found when looking at the car:

The relay for the electric windows was very loose - had almost popped out its socket.

There is a lot of corrosion on the clamps that attach to the battery terminals, and the grease has dried up to powder. The battery is flat as a pancake (reading 7.1 volts) - not surprising, given that the car hasn't been started for six months.

There is some green, corrosion-type goo all over the connector to the vehicle speed sensor that inserts into the transmission. I needed a big pair of pliers to get it off (as the actress said to the bishop...).

The transmission oil level is very low - right on the minimum mark on the dipstick.

From reading online Honda enthusiasts' forums, the consensus of opinion seems to be that the speed sensors are notorious for failing, causing the speedo to stop working. I haven't read anything about this causing the electronic door locking to go crazy: but given that when things work normally, the doors lock automatically when the speed goes above 10mph, this seems to me to be connected (excuse the pun). From this and the fact that there is corrosion damage on the connector module on this car, I've decided to replace the sensor and the connector as a starting point. I've now ordered them, plus a battery charger and some Honda transmission oil. If the sensor isn't the problem, well, we're only down by $26, and from what I've seen online, these things fail so often anyway that even if the existing one is OK, the chances are high that it won't be for much longer.

Just wondered if there is anything else glaringly obvious that I'm missing? All the other relays and fuses are OK and I can't find any obviously visible fault in any other connector.

Strangely, my other half tells me that the check engine light did not come on when the fault happened. She's absolutely certain about that. I can only assume that the bulb in that light is dead, because I can't understand how a fault like that would not be picked up by the engine management computer.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 03-30-2013, 02:29 PM:

Question: does the car lock/unlock the doors when you put into and out off park? I would try changing the battery terminals and the battery. I would check the starting relay and I would look to see if the car has a "body control module" that controls the electronics like the door locks.

The unfortunate thing is you could have an intermittent short in one of the electrical circuits causing these problems which is very hard to diagnose. I own a taxi company and we are constantly chasing theses kinds of crazy electrical problems. For example one car will randomly not start no matter what is done then an hour or two later it will magically start multiple times in a row. We have sent it out to an independent shop and they replaced some of the wiring we have changed all the PCM, BCM, ignition switch, starter etc... At our in house shop and it will still randomly do this once every few weeks.

If you check all the easy stuff and don't get it rectified you may have to cut your losses on it because you could spend a lot of time and money and never get it resolved.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-30-2013, 03:25 PM:

quote: Sean McKinnon
Question: does the car lock/unlock the doors when you put into and out off park? I would try changing the battery terminals and the battery.

I've cleaned the terminals with a wire brush and IPA (isopropyl alcohol, not India pale ale!), and they're now nice and shiny. The battery will have to wait until the charger currently en route from Amazon arrives, hopefully on Tuesday or Wednesday next week. The battery was only around six months old when the problems began, so I'm hoping that it can still be salvaged. The charger I ordered has a feature for charging up batteries that have been allowed to discharge totally without causing further damage (multiple reviews on Amazon say that it works wonders at this), and so fingers crossed on that one.

quote: Sean McKinnon
If you check all the easy stuff and don't get it rectified you may have to cut your losses on it because you could spend a lot of time and money and never get it resolved.

Agreed completely, and if the intermittent short is in one of the wiring looms, the time and money needed to track that down will not be funny.

I'm hopeful that the intermittent short and/or broken connection is in the connector to the speed sensor, given that there is clearly visible corrosion damage on it. But maybe that's wishful thinking.

quote: Sean McKinnon
I would check the starting relay and I would look to see if the car has a "body control module" that controls the electronics like the door locks.

Starter solenoid tests OK, and as far as I know there is no separate control module for the body electronics - just one management computer.

If it turns out not to be the speed sensor then I think it's time to throw in the towel, not least because to investigate any further I'd really need a code reader and a Haynes manual. A battery charger is something that we should have in the garage anyway, and as Olivia's new car is also a Honda, the transmission oil won't be wasted either. But I agree completely that with intermittent faults, you run the risk of spending a lot of time and money on wild goose chases, and the time comes when you have to cut your losses.

Many thanks for the pointers - more will be revealed when I've got the battery back to life.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-30-2013, 06:22 PM:

I would also replace the old battery ($60). High current, high resistance connection will drive the OBC (on board computer) crazy.

If you are really cheap, you could just borrow any battery to try for awhile. Louis

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 03-31-2013, 01:32 PM:

I would be careful with the battery. I have learned the hard way that allowing a car battery to fully discharge can damage it. You should also test for a/c in the output of your alternator too much a/c leakage can wreak havoc on the PCM. I've had alternates test ok on the bench at auto supply stores but still be bad. All they usually test for is to see that it is putting out the proper dc volts I have had alternators where the blocking diode has shorted allowing the alternator to discharge the battery by acting as a load or a drain on it. We took one fresh out of the box (reman) and connected in to a battery waited. The casing of the alt heated up and it actually drained down the battery! It tested fine at the shop so they had cleaned it up and shipped it out.

We actually see 30-50% of the reman parts (alternators, wiper motors) fail within a week of install. Quality control is not very good.

Posted by Michael Voiland (Member # 5386) on 03-31-2013, 02:22 PM:

Sean,
Sounds like its time to get a new supplier.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-31-2013, 02:37 PM:

quote: Sean McKinnon
I have learned the hard way that allowing a car battery to fully discharge can damage it.

I've heard that, too - in the final stages of discharge a lead-acid battery can get so hot that the electrode plates bend, in extreme cases causing them to short against each other and the electrolyte to boil. There isn't any visible damage on this one, and the charger I've ordered has been reviewed by another buyer as being able to desulfate a totally dead battery.

I am kicking myself - when it became clear that the car was going to be in storage for months, I should have disconnected the battery when I was staying with Olivia over Christmas. Oh well - no use in crying over spilt milk.

quote: Sean McKinnon
You should also test for a/c in the output of your alternator...

Many thanks - will do when I've got power into the car and got it started.

I'm a bit cagey about buying a new battery on spec, because if, ultimately, the problem is an intermittent short buried deep in some wiring loom, or something similar that it's just not worth putting the time and money into cracking on a high mileage car that old, I don't want to get into a situation of "I'll just try that $60 solution to see if it works, and then swap out that $80 part", etc. etc. So the plan I'm formulating for when the parts arrive next week is:

1. Replace speed sensor and connector.
2. Top up transmission oil.
3. Attempt to charge battery; see if charger's inbuilt electronics thinks that it's OK.
4. If battery appears to take a full charge OK, reconnect it, start car and check alternator output.
5. Allow engine to warm up to operating temperature, then take for 20 minute test drive in local vicinity.
6. If successful, take for a longer test drive. If still successful, declare car fixed.
7. If problem recurs during test drive, utter R-rated language very loudly.
8. Borrow battery from new Honda and see if that makes the problem go away.
9. If that cures it, buy new battery for old Honda.
10. If the problem is still present, put it down to experience, give old Honda to charity and get tax receipt.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-01-2013, 03:30 AM:

With the speedo bouncing like it is, time for a new speedo cable since the flex cable inside the sheath ready to come apart inside the casing...or just needs to be relubed with "Film-Guard", or similar...

Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 04-01-2013, 09:19 AM:

Might as well also make sure the ground strap is tight and secure. I've had a couple of old cars where it wasn't and that solved a host of problems.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-01-2013, 11:13 AM:

quote: Monte L. Fullmer
With the speedo bouncing like it is, time for a new speedo cable since the flex cable inside the sheath ready to come apart inside the casing...or just needs to be relubed with "Film-Guard", or similar...

I couldn't say for sure without either major surgery or looking at a Haynes manual, but I don't think there is any mechanical linkage between the transmission and the speedo at all - the instrument cluster is driven purely electrically, and takes an electrical signal from the speed sensor, which tells the computer what the road speed of the car is (I'm guessing that one revolution of the cog momentarily closes a circuit, and that = one revolution of the drive axle), thereby enabling the computer to send the correct signal to the speedo, and to tell the doors to lock as the car picks up speed. It might also tell the transmission when to change, or that might be done by engine revs - don't know. In other words, I'm guessing that the arrangement is an Airbus-style 'fly by wire' one, so to speak.

quote: Sam Graham
Might as well also make sure the ground strap is tight and secure. I've had a couple of old cars where it wasn't and that solved a host of problems.

There are several ground straps from various bits of the engine block to the front and driver's side panel, and they looked OK to me. But I will undo them, clear off accumulated dirt with a wire brush and reassemble with copper grease in the threads - thanks.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-01-2013, 11:28 AM:

quote: Michael Voiland
Sean,
Sounds like its time to get a new supplier.

Actually we have three two national auto part chains that both happen to begin with "A" and one regional outfit that mostly delivers to commercial garages.

Unfortunately all three stores only stock reman's on some items. We have tried ordering new on-line but often we can't wait. We do try to stock common parts but if we use an item or two we cannot wait 3-5 days to restock it.

Maybe Mike B. can shed some light on how these reman parts work? I think he runs an auto parts store as well as a cinema.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 04-01-2013, 01:26 PM:

Sounds like you're on the right path!! Anxious to see if the new speed sensor solves it.

Sean, I am one of those who got a bad alternator right out of the box. I replaced a bad alternator on my old 91 Festiva, and everything was brighter than it was so I was QUITE happy. Turns out it was TOO bright, I really should've tested the voltage on the first start-up but live and learn. That brand new alternator ended up frying every circuit board on the car including the ECM along with several fuses. Luckily I had a parts car. Back on the road in no time.... That brand new alternator tested bad INSTANTLY on the bench test, they had never seen that before.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-01-2013, 01:28 PM:

Sean: many auto rebuilders also rebuild aircraft parts that are similar. They seem to do much better with rebuids. Ask at the airport. They have to be licensed to do aircraft and many times the craftsmanship for one will affect the other. Good luck. Louis

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-01-2013, 05:44 PM:

quote: Buck Wilson
Turns out it was TOO bright, I really should've tested the voltage on the first start-up but live and learn. That brand new alternator ended up frying every circuit board on the car including the ECM along with several fuses.

I once had a similar problem with a projector lamphouse. We were getting a super bright picture, and even compliments from regular customers at how great the image looked in screen 2, waiting until a movie moved from 1 to 2 to see it, etc.

Alarm bells started ringing when the lamp failed at around 500 hours - blackening on the envelope and flylead, and the thing wouldn't strike. The provenance of that bulb was unknown - it was the first one on the opening of a new theatre, and we didn't know whether it was new or had been recycled from somewhere else. So we assumed that it had actually done quite a few hours before we got it, replaced the bulb and the shows went on.

Then the second one died at around the 500 hour mark, too. To cut a very long story short, it turned out that the ammeter on the back of the lamphouse was bad, and that when we thought that 23 amps was going through that lamp, it was more like 35-40. Again, you live and learn: it just didn't occur to either of us that this could be the problem, and in fact it was the last thing we checked.

So frustrating waiting for the sensor to arrive...

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-02-2013, 08:32 PM:

quote: Sean McKinnon
Maybe Mike B. can shed some light on how these reman parts work? I think he runs an auto parts store as well as a cinema.

Maybe you were over-estimating a bit about reman parts failing, but 30 to 50% is WAY out of line. Our defective rate here for reman items floats around 2 or 3% and that's mostly for alternators and starters because they have a two-year warranty. We virtually never have a reman water pump or wiper motor come back. (We have a Carquest store.) To be fair, we don't sell very many wiper motors since in this dry country, you hardly ever have to use your wipers. [Smile]

At least from what I've been told by suppliers, a remanufactured item contains MOSTLY new interior parts; like in a starter, usually only the outside casing will be re-used; all the other parts will be new unless the starter was in extremely good shape before it was rebuilt, in which case some other parts might be re-used. Of course I can't prove any of this, it's just what we've been told by the sales guys.

Something else to keep in mind is what "line" you are buying. Most parts stores (including ours) have a first line and a second line for many items. The first line is the best quality; second line is cheaper but not as good. (More re-used parts.) Many stores, trying to compete on price, will quote the second-line items by default. So if you're getting a lot of defects, ask the dealer if you are buying the best possible line they stock.

A lot of alternators fail because the battery was low when the rebuilt alternator was installed -- the battery should be fully charged before you run the vehicle after putting an alternator in.

Supposedly, a lot of "bad" alternators really aren't bad at all, they just come back with a "not charging" complaint when it was really the battery's fault. Similarly, a lot of "bad" starters are returned when the problem was really somewhere else in the electrical system. So a certain number of "reman" units are probably just cleaned-up "defective" units that were never really defective in the first place. Of course any reman unit has to go through a long list of tests before it gets shipped out to the stores.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-03-2013, 08:42 AM:

Thank you Mike that sheds a lot of light on things. Yes, I am probably over estimating a bit but it has been a problem. I am going to have a meeting with me "Fleet Management" staff to make sure that they are fully charging batteries or replacing them before installing alternators.

Unfortunately we do not have any stores from the chain you partner with we only have AutoZone and Advance and a small regional chain store that delivers to professional shops and garages. Most of the problem parts come from the consumer stores and we try not to buy those types of parts from them but unfortunately they are open when the other shop is closed. We tend to buy the mid grade parts and as you said that may be an issue. Thank you for your insight!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-03-2013, 09:52 AM:

I have had some luck giving the battery a slight charge from a trickle charger which will excite the alternator field. it will then go on and charge the main battery. (My Cessna 210 has 8 D cells located in the wing for the purpose of exciting the alternator in an emergency.) Louis

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-03-2013, 12:49 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Supposedly, a lot of "bad" alternators really aren't bad at all, they just come back with a "not charging" complaint when it was really the battery's fault.

I'm guessing that must be the case with a lot of car parts, because any one fault on a car could have a number of different causes. Last summer I encountered an example of this: blown bulb (seemingly), replaced bulb, still no light, fault turned out to be that the indicator flasher relay was buggered. It just didn't occur to me to test the continuity on the old bulb - I just jumped to the conclusion that if the light goes out, the bulb is to blame. When I looked at the old bulb I could even see that the filament was intact - didn't even bother to look before replacing it initially. I'm sure that other people in that situation would have taken the new bulb back to the shop.

Speed sensor and Molex-type connector arrived yesterday and are now in; just waiting for the charger. There is a bit of vertical play on the shaft of the old sensor, whereas the new one is snug: dunno if that's significant. Watch this space...

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-04-2013, 12:11 PM:

Battery charger arrived yesterday. After connecting it, it went into defulfate mode for about 5 hours, and then started charging the battery (which it said only had a 12% charge in it when connected). First thing this morning it said 100% and the battery read 12.78 volts, so the omens look good that we've managed to rescue it.

Started the car this morning, let the engine warm up for 6-7 minutes or so and then took it for a 20-minute local drive, all without any problems. The doors locked on shifting from P to D and the speedo worked fine. However, two other gremlins emerged.

1 - Temperature gauge is dead. Olivia tells me that it worked fine when she last used the car, so that's a bit of a puzzle. When the engine has cooled down I'm going to check the connection to the temperature sensor (I did pull it off and look at it when checking the car over last week - maybe I didn't put it back on properly) and go from there.

2 - Parking brake light stays on even when parking brake is off. I suspected a faulty microswitch in the handbrake, but according to online Honda forums this can also mean low brake fluid. The level does look a bit low (though not down to the minimum), so I'll get some more this evening and see if that cures it.

I'm a little reluctant to take it for a longer drive without a working temperature gauge, but so far the signs are positive.

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-04-2013, 01:11 PM:

You might want to take the cap off the brake fluid reservoir fill it the the line and with the cap off pump the brakes to draw the fluid into the system then top it off once more. You will be able to tell if your losing brake fluid if after topping it off once or twice the level keeps dropping below the line after pumping the brakes. (Make sure the car is on when you're pumping the brakes or you won't draw the fluid into the system)

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-04-2013, 11:03 PM:

I think, essentially, it's a case of mission accomplished. [Smile]

Topping up the brake fluid (and pumping afterwards to get any air bubbles out of the system - many thanks, Sean) got rid of the brake warning light, after which we took it on a drive to Redlands (21 mile round-trip), during which the car behaved itself perfectly: speedo normal, rev counter normal, gears changed as expected and no phantom door-locking throughout the drive.

So I'm guessing that the cause of the original problem was a bad speed sensor.

The only remaining problem is the temperature gauge. I suspect that it's been faulty for some time: whenever the car is started, the gauge instantly (and I mean instantly - the moment the engine is started) rises to about a third of the way up the scale and stays there. I'm guessing that Olivia misread that as meaning that the car is running at normal temperature. There is 5v present in the temperature sensor connector, and if I short positive to ground the gauge goes all the way up to the 'hot as Hell' position (plus the check engine light comes on), which says to me that the temperature sensor is the culprit on this one. Still, that's $15 and five minutes - no worry there.

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-05-2013, 09:45 AM:

Great I am glad you were able to repair this car pretty easily. I would tend to agree with your assessment on the temperature gauge the only thing I would look out for is an air bubble in the coolant system (which can be bad the three mile island incident was partially caused by an air/steam bubble in the coolant system though not a car a good example of what can go wrong when you get air or steam in parts of a system not intended and it causes blocked coolant flow which can happen in a vehicle) causing the temp sensor to misread but I think if that was the case you would have seen symptoms of over heating.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-05-2013, 11:55 PM:

Another 20 trouble-free miles today.

I'm as sure as I can be that there isn't an air in the cooling system issue. The radiator fans are triggered directly by the thermostat, not the engine computer's temperature sensor. I let the car idle for 10-15 minutes and the fans came on, suggesting to me that the coolant is flowing properly (wouldn't have taken that long if there was a blockage, I'd have thought). Thanks for the pointer.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-06-2013, 07:59 AM:

"Keep 'em rollin'"

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-09-2013, 05:20 PM:

On the T-stat issue and to rid of the air bubble syndrome called "airlock":

If the T-stat has no jiggle valve on the flange, drill a .050" hole in the flange, for this eliminates "airlock" and helps to keep the system "burped" from air pockets and similar.

The hole is small enough to still keep coolant behind the T-stat to get heated up and pressurized yet allows the system to breathe since the flow through that hole is so minute ..

This trick works great with vertically mounted T-stats where you have the drilled hole at the 12:00 position.

-Monte

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-10-2013, 10:36 AM:

Many thanks Monte. I now have the new temperature sensor, but putting it in will have to wait until July (I'm off back to England for three months tomorrow), because that will mean having to drain and refill the cooling system anyway: unscrewing the sensor (it's mounted horizontally, on the side of the engine block underneath the distributor) and then putting the new one in on the fly as coolant pours out will almost certainly get air bubbles into the coolant circuit.

Olivia's thinking about keeping the car as a backup (the garage is big enough for two and the insurance will cover both cars for the price of just the new one), and if she does then I'll do the oil, oil filter and bleed and totally replace the brake fluid and transmission oil, too. And yes, I have disconnected the battery (in a fully charged state) this time, and put a quick release lever-type clamp (thank you O'Reilly's Auto Parts!) on the negative terminal, so that she can reconnect it without any tools if she needs to use the car.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-29-2013, 05:04 PM:

Well, the Honda has seen some action over the last couple of weeks. The speed sensor was undoubtedly the cause of the original problem, because the car has now been driven for 1,400 miles since it was replaced, without any sign of those symptoms coming back. The battery did not survive its total discharge, though. It was disconnected from April to early July (during which time the car was not used), and when I charged it (about 20 hours at 2 amps) and then reconnected it, it didn't have enough cranking power to start the engine. RIP battery. $84 at O'Reilly's solved that problem, and I've also replaced temperature sensor, the oil, filter, air filter, rear brake shoes (there wasn't much left of them), flushed the brake lines and replaced the brake fluid, changed the automatic transmission fluid and flushed and replaced the radiator coolant. It's running pretty nicely now.

I am wondering about the power steering liquid, though. The Haynes manual for the 1999 Civic doesn't mention anything about flushing and replacing it - it doesn't even tell you how to. It just tells you to check the reservoir level, and to top it off as necessary. However, I sucked out a little bit from the reservoir with a turkey baster, and it's a gross and disgusting black sludge. Olivia doesn't have any recollection of it ever having been flushed and changed. I can hear the power steering pump juddering when it's at full lock, and can't believe that having fluid that could be as much as 14 years old in the power steering system can possibly be good for it.

I'm therefore thinking about flushing and changing it the same way as I do on my car back home (recommended every 30k miles): disconnect the return pipe from the reservoir and stick it in the top of a bottle, run the engine to pump the old fluid out while turning the steering wheel back and forth and keeping the reservoir topped up, then when the stuff coming out of the return pipe is clear, reconnect it to the reservoir and top the reservoir off.

Can anyone think of any reason why this might be a bad idea? Many thanks in advance.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-29-2013, 06:00 PM:

I worked on automatic transmissions for a living before I ended up here and did a lot of work on cars for as a hobby.

In this application, if it's not leaking from the rack or hoses, leave it be. The new clean fluid just may dissolve enough gunk to cause leaking around the seals.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 07-29-2013, 06:21 PM:

I Agree. If the fluid comes up clean on the dip stick, e.g., without any particulate matter, leave it alone.

A service manager once told me that unless you have been doing regular maintenance you'd be asking for trouble to start now.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-29-2013, 10:53 PM:

Thanks folks. The sample I siphoned out was thick, black and gloopy. Still, if it's not causing any damage to the steering system, advice taken and I'll leave it.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 07-30-2013, 12:59 PM:

Yeah it's odd there are places that flat out refuse to change or flush certain fluids such as transmission fluid unless you can prove you've done it regularly they say similar to what Sam said that unless it was done regularly changing automatic transmission fluid can junk the transmission. It seems counter intuitive but I suppose all the goop might be holding everything together! [Smile]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-30-2013, 06:35 PM:

The transmission fluid I'm not worried about: from the file of service receipts it looks like it's been replaced three times during the time Olivia has owned the car, which is about the recommended interval; except that according to the Haynes manual, that interval should be halved, to every 15k miles, if the car is used regularly in outside temperatures above 90 degrees fahrenheit, which in the Inland Empire it certainly is. That having been said, the British Haynes manuals are notorious for recommending shorter intervals and generally more intense maintenance than is really necessary: as a general rule, the manufacturer's recommendation is overly optimistic, Haynes's is overly pessimistic and the ideal is usually about midway between the two! For example, on my Fiesta back home, Ford tell you to replace the timing belt every 80k, Haynes every 40k, but the guy who runs the independent garage next door to me would recommend 60. I'm guessing that something similar applies to the US Haynes manuals, too.

But there is no record of the power steering liquid ever having been replaced in this Honda. I'm guessing that this is because it's never supposed to be - the factory fill is intended to last for the life of the car (or at least, of the power steering pump), or it's designed to be gradually and continuously replaced as the reservoir is topped off as the result of evaporation, or minute losses through seals etc.

Still, given that power steering fluid essentially does the same job as brake fluid (it's the liquid in a hydraulic system), and brake fluid is supposed to be flushed and replaced every 10-30k miles (ish) depending on the type of vehicle, I'm a bit surprised at this. Maybe it's beacuse the brake system is safety-critical, but power steering isn't. Presumably if the power steering pump predeceases the entire car, the fluid will be changed in the process of replacing it.

As an interim compromise, I turkey-bastered out the contents of the reservoir (about half a quart) and replaced that this morning, so at least the hydraulic function of the overall mix should have been boosted a little, without removing all the suspended crud that might be holding the seals together.

Thanks everyone for the heads-up.