Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: The 3,000 mile myth? (car oil change interval)

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-14-2013, 01:58 PM:

I recently stumbled across this Wikipedia article, suggesting that changing the oil in your car every 3,000 miles is too frequent and unnecessary.

We've got one coming up to 3k miles (the infamous '99 Civic) since the last oil change, and I was wondering about this. The Haynes manual says very clearly that the oil and filter should be replaced every 3k miles, and furthermore the 3,000 mile myth campaign site also notes that more frequent oil changes are a good idea if the car is used regularly in very hot or very cold weather, and/or on frequent short journeys from a cold start. This vehicle is used in temperatures of 100F/37C plus for around half the year (and even in the Southern Californian winters, daytime temperatures can get into the 80s), and for journeys of under five miles. Therefore, my inclination is to stick with 3k oil changes, especially as the car is in very good condition for its age and we'd like to keep it that way.

That having been said, this does seem like a very short change interval. The last car I had in Britain (a 2001, mk. V Ford Fiesta), specified oil changes every 7.5k miles or six months, whichever came sooner, and I seem to remember that the last one I had before that (a 1997 Ford Mondeo) was around the same.

Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this...

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 09-14-2013, 02:17 PM:

My BMW's say forget about it until the readout calls for it (usually about 15,000 mi +/-). Admittedly they have a big oil sump and demand full synthetic oil, but I also can't help wondering if it's because they give you the oil changes free for 4 years. Saves them money! My Lincoln Aviator calls for it at 5,000 with regular oil. I can't remember the last car that recommended 3,000.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 09-14-2013, 03:09 PM:

I usually change mine with the seasons (96 Jeep). My 2010 Toyota is still under warranty so I bring it in for interval service.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 09-14-2013, 03:25 PM:

3000 mile oil changes are deemed necessary in my part of the country due to the blowing dirt. And short trips with cold starts in my case as I live about 3 miles from work.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 09-14-2013, 03:25 PM:

Not having a car is great; I never have to think about such things. [Smile]

I just jump on the bus and let somebody else worry about the oil. Of course, if you don't happen to live in London, or New York, or a fairly small number of other cities, or you have children, this is probably not practical.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-14-2013, 03:41 PM:

The 3000 mile things really dates back to the days of 100% mineral oils, far less accurate AFM control (over fueling can lead to bore wash and increased carbon deposits, all of which contaminate the oil) and of course engines with much looser tolerances than modern designs, which did by their nature, burn a bit of oil.

Nowadays oil is largely not oil at all, AFM is controlled by sophisticated closed loop systems and manufacturing tolerances are much much tighter.

So in short, for prehistoric engines like the V8 in my Range Rover or the 1800cc in my MG B GT, 3000 miles using Castrol Q is spot on. For something like my daily driver Skoda Octavia, it's more like 24,000 using expensive synthetic lubricant. Let's not call the stuff oil, because it isn't.

Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 09-14-2013, 03:55 PM:

+1
have not had a car in the last 12 years running less than 10000 miles without 'oil' and filter change.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-14-2013, 06:32 PM:

I usually change at 3000 the first time. 4000 the second time and then work up to 7000. Most metal is made during the first few hundred miles and SOME companies use a lower grade of oil so early replacement makes sense the first time. Louis

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-14-2013, 07:39 PM:

Many thanks folks.

quote: Jeff Taylor
My BMW's say forget about it until the readout calls for it (usually about 15,000 mi +/-).

Same thing with Olivia's new car (a 2012 Civic): it's got a photoelectric sensor in the oil path that actually measures how opaque the oil is. Once it gets black beyond a certain point, 'Change me, please' appears on the dashboard display. Far too high tech for my liking! [Cool]

quote: James Westbrook
3000 mile oil changes are deemed necessary in my part of the country due to the blowing dirt. And short trips with cold starts in my case as I live about 3 miles from work.

I'm leaning the same way, because California's Inland Empire is also very hot and dry; and furthermore, being in a valley that has lots of heavy industry in it, the air quality is said to be among the worst in the country (on some days you can barely see the San Bernardino Mountains, the foothills of which are only 7-8 miles away, for the smog). Judging by how often we need to change the filter in the house's air conditioning unit (they're supposed to last three months, but here they get clogged enough to have a noticeable effect on air flow through the grilles after only 5-6 weeks), I can easily believe that.

The Haynes manual says do it every 3k, though they do have a reputation for overly cautious recommendations and I'd be interested to know what Honda actually recommends for that model (can't find the info online and the documentation that came with the car is long since lost). Anyway, I think what I'm going to do is to change it at the 3k mark this time, and look at what comes out of the oil pan. If it's a gloopy sludge like the stuff in which Charles Vanel drowned in The Wages of Fear, I'll stick at 3k intervals, but if the viscosity doesn't seem much worse than when it went in, I'll think about stretching the interval next time.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 09-14-2013, 11:56 PM:

3k is a very safe interval. If I were you in those conditions, I'd do 3k.

That said, both oil and engines have come A LONGGGGGGGG way. Changes aren't needed nearly that often for the majority of folks. Most new cars are coming out with some type of monitoring system and typically those systems bring the cars anywhere from 5,000-12,000 miles on a change.

I personally run 5,000 mile changes on the Wal-Mart house brand SynTech synthetic oil, and I can tell you right now it is overly cautious of me to do so, it could go much longer than that in both my cars. I just like the ease of 5k changes(260k, 265k, 270k, etc) and peace of mind it offers. Not to mention, it only amounts to like $23 every 6 months so that's what I'm happy with.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-15-2013, 11:26 AM:

As Pete says, things have changed and now many companies ask you to change the oil around 15/17.000 miles.

VW have what they call "long life" oil. Costs more, but you are supposed to change it every 17k.

There is only something that puzzles me. A friend of mine has a VW which is under a service plan. VW pay for the service (up to 60k I think) and for breakdowns. Curiously, they use longlife oil BUT they require you to service the car every 10k miles! [Smile]

Sounds like "we know something you don't" to me!

The other point is that VW charge you about 300 quid for a standard service (oil and filter), hence you're not really pushed into replacing the oil more often.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-15-2013, 12:09 PM:

quote: Marco Giustini
The other point is that VW charge you about 300 quid for a standard service (oil and filter)...

Yikes! Even the most expensive, fully synthetic, top of the range "oil" I've ever seen on the shelf at Halfords (UK) or O'Reilly's (US) is only about £50 for a bottle (typically one US gallon or sold in 4.5 litre bottles in Britain).

I know that main dealers are notorious for applying the BOHICA principle to their customers when it comes to servicing costs, and that the only reason you'd get your car serviced at one is if you have to in order to keep a warranty valid: but even so VW must be making something like a 500% margin on every oil and filter change they do.

Nice work if you can get it!

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 09-15-2013, 12:17 PM:

My girlfriend gave me her old 2003 Toyota Corolla a few years ago with around 300K miles on it. She religiously changed the oil every 3K miles from when it was new. It now has around 350K miles on it and still running strong. Over it's life, it has gone though 3 catalytic converters, and one starter. That's it, aside from normal consumables like tires and oil.

Prior to her giving me the car I would change the oil every 15K miles or so in my cars, but I can't argue with success, so I am a convert to the 3K method.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-15-2013, 12:50 PM:

You forgot to address one critical component, her car was a Toyota. What was yours that you changed the oil in every 15K miles?

Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 09-15-2013, 07:10 PM:

I use Mobil 1 Synthetic 0w30 in my Rogue routinely changed every 10,000 miles. I do my own oil changes, about $30 total cost for oil and (Bosch) filter.

220,000 miles of mostly Midwest highway driving and runs like new. No leaks and burns less than a half quart between changes.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 09-16-2013, 02:43 PM:

The 3k change is pure bull shit, the engine oil manufacturers in the same ad will tell you how great their product is, then say it should be dumped ever 3,ooo and then say follow vehicle manufacturers suggested intervals.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-16-2013, 04:55 PM:

What VW usually do is charge you an arm and a leg when the car is under warranty (you cannot take your car elsewhere or you'll lose the warranty) and then when the warranty has expired they'll come up with some special offer and ask you a reasonable amount of money.

I also know someone who went to VW for servicing, and refused the absurd quotation. At that point the service guy came up with a special discount reducing the price of something like 50%.

Personally I remember asking them not to fit the pollen filter, and they reduced the Service price by 50 quid. Now, an original filter costs £7 to me at VW. Replacing it is a matter of 45 seconds, which is something like £0.80 considering £50 per hour. What about the remaining £49.20? [Smile]

Sorry a bit OT!

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-16-2013, 08:56 PM:

When I purchased my current car (2008 Civic EX) I took it in at just over 3000 miles for the oil change. They would not change it. They told me to get the eff out of there, not to let the door hit my ass on the way out and come back when the oil change indicator lights. It seems to only light up at over 6000 miles after the most frequent reset. There is a percentage meter and it lights up at 15%.

Meanwhile my fiance in her same-year Nissan Altima routinely changes her oil ever 3 months or 3000 miles, whichever comes first. I guess if they come at the same time she has to change it twice on the same day.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 09-16-2013, 10:28 PM:

You guys pay HOW MUCH for an oil change? *boggle*

I only change the oil in my vehicle once per year since I drive so little (between 2 and 3000 km per year in total), but the last time I had the oil changed in my old Ford Ranger it cost me $43.44 plus taxes for a grand total of $47.64, which includes labour, the oil, oil filter and a refill of windshield washer fluid.

I haven't yet taken my new Ford Escape in for an oil change, but I don't imagine it will cost a lot more than that.

I always have the work done at an authorized Ford dealership, too, not a shade-tree mechanic shop.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 09-17-2013, 01:49 PM:

Even with the 25,000 mile changes that Amsoil suggests the oil still get a slow turnover. Every engine out there will need a quart by 5 0r 6 thousand, then they still say to change the filter at manufacturers intervals, that means another quart. So by 25,000 miles the oil has probably been exchanged twice one quart at a time.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 09-17-2013, 04:35 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
You forgot to address one critical component, her car was a Toyota. What was yours that you changed the oil in every 15K miles?

Currently, I also own a 2000 Mustang convertible and a 2003 Jeep Liberty. The only reason I took the Toyota is that it was free, and it gets more than double the gas mileage of my other cars. I figured I would use it to commute until it finally died, but it is now 3 years later and it is still running great.

After this Jeep, I will NEVER own a Chrysler product again. Poorly designed, poorly built, stylish but overpriced garbage. Among many other problems, it was recalled last January, and my dealer still can't obtain the part required from Chrysler. Never Again.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 09-19-2013, 06:52 AM:

The 3000 mile thing for modern engines/oil is complete BS. General Motors has an oil monitoring system that has been used for many years. It monitors the engine temp, RPM and whatever other parameters contribute to oil degradation and tells you when to change the oil.

They did years of research and testing to make it accurate. They actually say it is conservative on when it tells you to change it. I have a 2005 Chevrolet Avalanche with this system. It uses non-sythetic oil. It has never told me it needed an oil change at less than 7000 miles. The one caveat is that they say to change it yearly at minimum regardless of the calculations since the oil ages. I have over 160,000 miles on the vehicle and it runs perfectly.

As for the dusty environment, change the air filter more often. Dust particles shouldn't really be getting through and any that make it into the oil should get filtered out by the oil filter.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-19-2013, 09:06 AM:

I'm a bit puzzled though. I though that nowadays all the manufacturers required oil change every 10-20.000 miles. I can't remember last time I heard anybody replacing the oil in their car after less then 10k intervals.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-19-2013, 11:38 AM:

The oil change interval is determined depending on what manufacturer(s) you're dealing with. Oil companies of course want you to change oil as often as possible. Car manufacturers want to sell you on "low maintenance costs" and therefore will say you can go long periods between changes. But the dealers, who also have service departments (which is their top profit center) are caught in the middle.

I personally have been using a 5,000 mile interval for many years. I live in a dusty small town though, and almost all of my driving is trips under 2 miles ... if I was doing a lot of highway commuting I would probably go 7,000 miles or 10,000.

The "Car Talk" guys made a good point about this. They said that a lot of shady mechanics will point out that your oil is "dirty" after a few thousand miles and use that to encourage you to change it. But, if the oil looks dirty it's because it is doing its job and suspending particles of crud. And just because it looks dirty, doesn't mean it still can't hold more particles. If your oil has a couple thousand miles on it and still looks "clean" then you're either using the wrong oil, or you have lousy oil.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-19-2013, 01:26 PM:

Yes, but. . . .

I once had an 1962 Buick Special with V6 aluminum block. The guy before me had NEVER changed the oil, only added. Starting at 60,000 miles, I changed the oil at 500 miles using cheap oil, After 4-6 changes, the oil started to look cleaner so I went to 1000 miles and better oil. Soon the valve lifters stopped making noise. Then 5000 miles. I put another 100k on that car. (The aluminum block had a bad reputation.) Louis

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-19-2013, 02:15 PM:

I've always thought that oil would get "dirty" after a short while, particularly on diesel engines. I don't think that is a reason to change it.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-19-2013, 03:11 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
a lot of shady mechanics will point out that your oil is "dirty" after a few thousand miles and use that to encourage you to change it. But, if the oil looks dirty it's because it is doing its job and suspending particles of crud.

Right, that's why I said this:

quote: Mike Blakesley
a lot of shady mechanics will point out that your oil is "dirty" after a few thousand miles and use that to encourage you to change it. But, if the oil looks dirty it's because it is doing its job and suspending particles of crud. And just because it looks dirty, doesn't mean it still can't hold more particles. If your oil has a couple thousand miles on it and still looks "clean" then you're either using the wrong oil, or you have lousy oil.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-19-2013, 05:37 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
I once had an 1962 Buick Special with V6 aluminum block. The guy before me had NEVER changed the oil, only added. Starting at 60,000 miles...

When I was a student in the early '90s, one of the people I shared a house with had a Volvo of late 1970s vintage, which her mother had owned from new and then passed on to her. Driving home for Christmas, it lost power suddenly, and she pulled over to the side of the road. She then smelt smoke, and got out ... just in time, because a few seconds later the thing went up like the Hindenburg and was completely destroyed.

The insurance company subsequently refused the claim, on the not unreasonable grounds that the car had never been serviced. My housemate's mother divorced her father shortly after the vehicle had been bought new. Prior to that, the father had taken care of car issues. The mother simply didn't know that cars needed regular maintenance (apart from putting fuel in it): she thought they were like fridges, i.e. you bought it and then used it until it died. It never had so much as an oil change ... in fact, as far as my housemate was aware, the hood had literally never been opened at any point between the times the car was bought and burned, apart from when it had its MOTs, all of which it passed with flying colours. Yet despite this, it lasted for 15 years and well over 100k miles. I guess they don't nickname Volvos Swedish tanks for nothing...

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-19-2013, 06:32 PM:

I just realized my post above makes no sense since I quoted myself twice. Just ignore the first quote and it'll make sense. This is what I get for Film-Teching while I'm supposed to be office-working.

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 09-19-2013, 09:56 PM:

I agree with Brad, it depends on the car. And also, moreso, the engine. It will be more tollerant if it engine is a iron block, vs an aluminum block. If you allow an aluminum block to endure too much heat, either from oil, bad timing, or improper cooling, its going to give you problems. You can abuse an iron block engine far more with out as many problems.