Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What happen to the Cartoons?

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Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 01-26-2014, 07:42 PM:

I'm sure there are more than a few forum Members that remember the old Single Screen Days on Saturdays. You saw a Cartoon,News Reel,2 reeler,A Serial(or Chapter Play as Cathy Bates Character called it) and at least 2 sometime 4 features. In other words the Perfect Afternoon Babysitter for Parents in the 50's,early 60's.

My friend here that opened-up a double screen Drive-in the 90's wanted some of the nostalgia of the old Days; so he wanted to show a Cartoon before the Feature Started. No such Luck, Film exchanges said they no longer carried Cartoons of any Kind.

So what happen to all these TOONS. Were the Prints that were still in good shape sent back to the Studios, Were they chopped up, Burnt, etc. I remember seeing The old Fleischer,Lantz,IB TECH
Cartoons and they were in excellent condition coming on 1000ft Goldberg Reels. Really a shame that a kid today can't see a Real Cartoon on the Big Screen like they use to be Made. This computer generated Garbage they see today is Pathetic...

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 01-26-2014, 08:09 PM:

Back when I managed a drive-in in the 90's the only place we could get them, and our intermission reels, was Film-Mack studios out of, I believe Chicago. I do not know if they are in business any more. If they are in business, maybe they have them in digital also. A quick Google does not find them however.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 01-26-2014, 08:13 PM:

You can probably still get some from the Classics divisions of the various disturbs. But they aren't going to be cheap, and you probably can't get single cartoons

The sub-distribs that used to handle them (Kit Parker, Films, Inc etc) lasted until about the early 90's. I remember getting mint prints of MGM stuff like Tom & Jerry at DI's up until the mid-80's. I think the Fleischer stuff, at least pre-Paramount is public domain and I know they can be gotten on DVD if you are interested in showing that way.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-26-2014, 08:38 PM:

When I was a kid a couple of the theaters on Marine Corps bases where my dad was stationed would play cartoons in front of the movies. The Sakura Theater on the Marine Base in Iwakuni, Japan sometimes had Saturday afternoon blocks of cartoons. They even showed some black and white serial shows. This was in the late 70's. I even remember a few drive-in theaters in towns like Yuma, AZ playing Looney Tunes cartoons, Tom & Jerry or other animated stuff in front of the movies.

I can see a couple reasons why theaters wouldn't do this sort of thing now. Money is the big thing. I'm sure movie theaters would have to pay considerably more in rental fees to play cartoons like that now. Time is another. Get the customers in and out ASAP, get the auditorium cleaned and ready for the next show. Get at least 4-6 shows per screen played each day.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-26-2014, 10:39 PM:

After one of the big chains (AMC I think) did a promotional run on a bunch of the Looney Tunes in the '90s, Kit Parker Films had them for rent. You could rent them in sets of three, at 3 months for $150.00. (You picked the titles you wanted out of a catalog and they would each come on one reel -- OR, they had various "combos" that had three toons spliced onto one reel.) So you could play any or all of them during that period as much as you wanted. We used to pick out the 3 movies that most "needed" a cartoon--maybe a Disney flick, or a very popular movie that we thought might need a little more concession time, etc.

The prints ran from decent to trashed, with some being spliced-up or having the beginning or ending footage clipped off. There's nothing worse, cartoonwise, than not hearing the opening slide guitar "riff" of the Looney Tunes logo!

Overall I found that people didn't really appreciate the cartoons for what they were. I talked them up a lot, with the "you're seeing them on the big screen where they were MEANT to be seen" or "you're seeing something people haven't seen in a theater in over 50 years," etc. but people were mostly "eh," probably because the cartoons were overexposed on TV. I think they might have helped concession sales a bit though.

Even after that, I still wish we could get WB to offer a deal where they would grant a "blanket" license for a theatre to play a Looney Tune cartoon for a week. We'd pay the license fee, and agree to play only one toon at a time. We'd create our own DCP from a Blu Ray, so no production expense on their part. But I've been told they won't consider such a thing, and I suppose even if they did, the fee would be ridiculous...I think $25 would be about right but I'll bet they'd want $100 or more.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-27-2014, 03:23 AM:

quote: Steve Matz
This computer generated Garbage they see today is Pathetic...

I don't think you should blame it on the fact that it's Computer Generated. It started with Pixar, but Disney has been putting an animated short in front of many of their feature presentations for quite a while now. Most of those short films are anything but garbage, although they're all computer generated.

Personally, I like the idea of running a cartoon or animated short in front of the feature animation, although only if you don't feed me with 20 minutes of garbage (commercials and endless trailers) first. And I like a new production just like any old classic, as long as it's made with some love and dedication.

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 01-27-2014, 10:03 AM:

Back in '06 I wanted to get WB cartoons. I did. A reel of 6. That's all they'd rent me. $100. A couple of them were badly scratched. I spliced a couple off in spite of the fact there was instructions saying not to. So you can probably get a reel of 6 from your WB rep.

Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 01-27-2014, 11:47 AM:

The 13th Avenue Warren in Wichita occasionally had classic WB cartoon shorts in front of features right up until they went all digital.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 01-27-2014, 12:07 PM:

Most cartoons were like the early days of vaudeville where the theme was slapstick or made fun of some ethnic group.

Modern audiences are no longer entertained by these things and consider slapstick to be "violence" and ethnic humor is most unacceptable.

Roadrunner is violent and Heckle and Jackle are too ethnically demeaning to be acceptable while Elmer Fudd made fun of physically handicapped.

Modern audiences don't seem to know or like the classical music that was used for many of the cartoons. As a projectionist doing changeovers, having that little 7 minute reel was fun to insert as flat between two reels of Scope.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-27-2014, 12:34 PM:

A lot of preservation activity has been done on "short subjects" (not just cartoons, but newsreels, "interest" films and historical trailers as well) since the late '90s, because the emergence of the DVD extra feature created a beast that needed to be fed. Both the studios and the big non-profit archives have done a lot of work on this material, and there have been collaborative projects, too (e.g. between Warners and UCLA in preserving the Vitaphone musical shorts from the '20s, many of which have been reissued on DVDs and BDs such as The Jazz Singer, and shown on 35mm at occasional festivals).

Agreed with Kenneth that some titles would be very problematic just to drop into a regular program (infamous examples here and here, but there are many other milder examples that still wouldn't be appreciated by many in a mainstream theatre setting now).

Some censored versions have been published - for example, there was a Tom and Jerry DVD set that did the rounds in Britain around a decade ago, in which Mammy's African-American accent was dubbed over with a more neutral one and some of her scenes cut altogether (plus some other politically incorrect shots, e.g. Tom blowing himself up and then appearing as a blackface caricature when the smoke clears).

So if the studios are comfortable with whatever they publish on consumer media, I can't see how they'd have a problem with the same material being screened theatrically. And as Mike points out, a well-mastered BD can in many circumstances match an indifferent 2K DCP for subjective image quality, and so making them available to exhibitors again would purely be a case of licensing, i.e. virtually zero cost to the distributor.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 01-27-2014, 02:50 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Overall I found that people didn't really appreciate the cartoons for what they were.

You ain't kidding. I once had a woman go ballistic on me for showing a cartoon before the movie. We were doing a nostalgia thing - newsreel, cartoon, movie all from 1941. She just came out incensed that we would show a cartoon at an adult show. It was, she said, "an insult to her intelligence." Jeez

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-27-2014, 03:01 PM:

Well...that shows she has very little intelligence!

I was always a huge fan of Looney Tunes, but after listening to some of the commentaries and watching the "Behind the Tunes" features on the Golden Collection sets, I had a whole new appreciation for the amount of thought and work that went into those films. There's so much below the surface that most people don't see. They're not "just cartoons!"

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-27-2014, 03:11 PM:

Agreed - they're very incisive social commentary. Wabbit Twouble anticipated the environmentalist movement over four decades before their concerns became mainstream. It explores the concerns both that car use/tourism damages natural beauty spots etc., and the idea that these places have to be packaged up and made safe for the new urban middle classes to visit (hence Elmer bringing a carload of mod cons with him). The Isle of Pingo Pongo does the same thing (natives on a desert island have to perform bang up to date western jazz in order to be tourist-friendly, and far from appreciating the native culture, all Elmer wants to do is shoot them), but that aspect has been (understandably, I guess) undermined by the obvious racism issues.

Another one of my favorites is Bugs and Elmer parodying The Barber of Seville. It's full of jokes that you're simply not going to get unless you know at least something both about opera and the homoerotic references (neither of which is likely to apply to anyone younger than upper teens). Interestingly, this one makes jokes about homosexuality that are (to me, at any rate) every bit as potentially problematic as the racist ones in some of the infamous "censored eleven", but yet it's still easily and legally available, and has even been shown with a live orchestra at the Hollywood Bowl not so long ago.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-27-2014, 03:19 PM:

Some of those old cartoons indeed had racist overtones or were just plain blatant about it. That kind of material would not fly with audiences today.

I would prefer to see some of those classic cartoons prior to the start of a G or PG rated movie, as opposed to all the freaking TV commercials and other crap playing nonstop before the movie starts. There's no point in putting cartoons on the front of a PG-13 or R rated show.

I like the Warren Moore theater's policy of having curtains shut and merely playing house music before the start of the movie. Too many other theater chains have a projector playing TV commercials and other crap at dim levels well in advance of the movie's start time. Then they have the 20-25 minute pre-show pack run at full brightness and then the movie.

I suppose those chains have to keep all those ad dollars coming in, as opposed to playing something the audience might enjoy more.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-27-2014, 06:32 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
There's no point in putting cartoons on the front of a PG-13 or R rated show.

Speak for yourself, man! I would love to see a cartoon before any movie. The day that society decided that all cartoons were for kids was a sad day. It sure put some stupid limitations on animation.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 01-27-2014, 06:33 PM:

I know that as of around 5 years ago, 35mm wise, WB was still renting classic Looney Tunes in groups of 6, and they also had some early Popeye's (originally Paramount), and many Tom & Gerry's (originally MGM).

Sony/Columbia had 3 Stooges (live action) and some cartoons.
Universal had some Woody Woodpecker's available.

I assume with the demise of film, none are still available, at least not in 35mm.

Back in the mid 1980's, Disney destroyed all the release prints of all their cartoons. The still have the negatives, and every now and again they would re-print one for a special release, however, I don't believe that any were ever available for stand alone bookings.

As to audience reaction, for repertory shows, cartoons and short before the feature are a big hit. For current first run films I have found the audience is generally hostile. They want to see the feature, some trailers, and nothing more. It's a different mindset.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 01-28-2014, 12:16 AM:

Although I liked the old Familiar Cartoons we saw before the feature started. I really enjoyed the ones from the 40's that featured Major Movie Stars in Cartoon Form...A&C, WC Fields, Laurel and Hardy, etc. Even mimicking their voices pretty accurately.Since FIELDS was always talked about as being a heavy drinker. One Cartoon features him trying to fake like he was Drowning at a Frozen Pond just so he could get a Drink(probably brandy) off the Resue ST BERNARD carrying the KEG strapped to its neck. Those were hilarious Cartoons but I only saw them on TV during the 50's and early 60's.....

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 01-28-2014, 01:08 AM:

During the summer in my boyhood town of Russell, KS at the Dream Theater, which btw is still going strong as it has went digital and all the workers are volunteers besides one gent who sets up the DCP, use to have wonderfull cartoons playing what seemed like all day long for only $1. Looney Tunes, Hanna Barbera, and even School House Rock. Man I miss those days. My love for movie theaters and cinema was spawned from those moments.

It was so refreshing seeing the Disney short before Frozen with Donald and Goofy friends. It was so cool how they would run in and out of the screen and when they spun the screen around you can see they animated speaker arrays behind it. One of my favorite shorts in years.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 01-28-2014, 07:40 AM:

A theater I worked in the 1960s had a "house cartoon" that would be inserted at the start of the show if there was a huge crowd and the manager need the extra 7 minutes to get everyone seated.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 01-28-2014, 08:46 AM:

The Key Theatre in Georgetown would do the same thing with Bambi Meets Godzilla well into the 80's.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 01-28-2014, 09:51 AM:

The shortest cartoon I ever screned was "Crunch Bird". It was 60 seconds long and won an academy award.

There was a loud "burp" in the sound after the picture went blank. The operator needed to let that play before changing out of the reel.

A little crude but always got a laugh. I think it played with "Diamonds Are Forever", a James Bond film.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 01-28-2014, 10:53 AM:

This version is 2:19.
The Crunch Bird
This one is cut off before the burp.
I can see where you would have to be careful what movie you played it with.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-28-2014, 07:43 PM:

Scrub Me Mama with a Boogie Beat

The Shanty Where Santy Claus Lives

Wow. Especially that first one.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 01-28-2014, 08:13 PM:

I also agree with Mike and have no objections about cartoons featured before any kind of movies. How well I remember my childhood when my local theatre, the Waipahu started a performance first with the latest newsreel, followed by one or two short subjects and then a cartoon.. The last thing shown before the feature was a trailer and five or six slides advertising the Waipahu's movies for the coming week. Back in those days, a movie played at my theatre for a day or two. Big pictures were shown on weekends and one night was Japanese film night and another was Filipino movie night. The other nights were for grade B or C movies. Kids such as myself at the time paid only a dime on weekdays and a quarter on weekends.

BTW: I just posted a photo of the Waipahu Theatre and some comments about it on my a Facebook page today for those who are interested.

-Claude

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-28-2014, 09:20 PM:

quote: Manny Knowles
Wow. Especially that first one.

Coal Black and De Sebben Dwarfs

Arguably not quite as egregious as Scrub Me Mama..., which manages the rare feat of being both grossly, spectacularly offensive and lacking any artistic merit whatsoever; this one at least has Bob Clampett's trademark attention to detail. But still, politically correct it certainly ain't.

Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 01-29-2014, 07:05 PM:

I like a lot of old entertainment. But I am over the whole cartoon before the movie nostalgia. If I had to sit through 5 min of cartoons on top of the main trailers and ads before a movie, I would lose patience. Leave it for the kids movies.

I am guy who is not against nostalgia and I have sat through my share of twilight zone marathons and TCM broadcasts of old movies. Still, as Mike said, I have watched more than my fair share of old school cartoons and at some point in my life, I just lost all interest in them. I just don't have the patience for them anymore because I have seen so many of them as a kid.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 01-29-2014, 09:13 PM:

Looney Tunes made "LITTLE BLACK SAMBO" in 1932. I'm not sure what year CASTLE FILMS was distributing it(probably late 40's)
The NAACP never went after the Book until the 60's so CASTLE had probably quit selling it by then.I Never really understood their philosophy about what was offensive having "AMOS & ANDY" taken off the air or a harmless Kids book that didn't make children racist. But they never Protested Films where there was DRUG USE.
Which was the more Harmful after all [puke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPZQyPcvTzw

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 02-01-2014, 08:24 PM:

Little Black Sambo is a UB IWERKS cartoon.

I think what bothered the NAACP was that the creator and writers of Amos N Andy were white. At least that is what I was told years ago.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 02-01-2014, 09:49 PM:

When we bought our drive-in, in 1986, one of the first things I did was bring in the cartoon before the opening trailers. That's how we ran at the place I grew up working for, and I thought people would think it a fun way to start the evening.

It surprised me, that my audience was fairly indifferent to them... not hostile, but certainly not enthusiastic.

At the time, the studios were charging $25 per week. 3 cartoons (one for each screen) ran me $75 a week, or roughly $300 or so per month.

As far back as '86, the Seattle NFS depot seemed to have a limited supply, as I started seeing the same titles come back within only a few weeks. Given the cost, print quality and selection, and customer apathy, I quit after one year. The elimination of cartoons from my shows was barely noticed.

The quality of those old acetate prints was generally aweful. My bet is the studios had NFS trash what was left, once a print became unplayable, and never replaced it.