This is topic Advice needed on venue reference footage in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Justin Silverstein (Member # 8118) on 02-09-2014, 11:01 PM:
 
Hi there,

First of all, hi! It's nice to meet you all. I can already tell that this forum is a fantastic resource. Mods, please forgive me if I've chosen the wrong section for this post; it didn't seem to fit into any other section. "Help wanted" isn't quite right, as I'm not actually looking to hire anyone just yet, though that may change depending on the advice I get here.

Basically, my issue is this: I need to get some sense of how plausible it might be to create, commission, or otherwise acquire a specific type of stock footage of theater venue interiors. This footage would be strictly for my personal reference purposes, as relates to a series of formal surveys and studies I'm doing in crowd psychology. I just need help deciding whether it would even be feasible for anyone to create footage that would meet my requirements, or if I should just give up and turn to another subject.

The footage simply needs to consist of a reasonably clear, totally steady shot of a movie audience filing out of a theater over the course of several minutes as the movie is ending, showing the interior of the theater as it progressively empties out. Again, this footage would strictly be for private reference and certainly none of it would be released or distributed in any way, so there is no legal issue regarding reproduction of the likenesses of the folks in the crowd (I've verified this with two lawyers).

If I knew someone in the industry, I suppose I could simply get permission to stand in the back of a theater at the appropriate time and shoot the footage unobtrusively, but alas, I have no such connections. I've already tried contacting theater management at a great many venues and explaining my situation, and none have been willing to engage in any way, presumably fearing I'm pursuing some kind of weird scam.

So, what do you all think? Is it conceivable that I could find and hire someone on a forum like this who has the means to shoot the kind of footage I need? My only real requirement is that the shot must be steady and zoomed-out enough to clearly show the movements of a good majority of the patrons as they leave, and that the video must begin before people start clearing out and continue until the theater is empty of patrons. The ideal angle would be a nice, high, wide shot looking down from projector level, if any suitable windows or openings exist up there that would allow for a good line of sight.

This project is very important and has a considerable budget, so I'm certainly not just looking for favors here. Fancy cameras needn't be used to capture the footage, either. Any late-model mobile phone capable of recording 1080p video would do the trick just fine. My hope is that I'm not being completely delusional here, and that it will in fact be possible to commission such a video from a theater employee via internet. If not, though, I'd very much appreciate any and all alternative suggestions on how I might be able to get my hands on some footage similar to what was described. I thank you all very much for your time and look forward to your thoughts!
 

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Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 02-09-2014, 11:32 PM:
 
Sorry to tell you straight away...but your request sounds odd and sets off alarm bells.
Perhaps an explanation of why such a thing is of interest to you would help?

 

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Posted by Justin Silverstein (Member # 8118) on 02-10-2014, 12:55 AM:
 
Thanks for your input, Victor--yes, I'm fully aware that it sounds odd and vaguely alarming, which is why I'm in such a pickle! It truly is a harmless endeavor, though--just zoomed-out footage of a whole bunch of faceless people leaving a theater. The reason I need to do this is that I'm focusing on the modulating effects of environmental luminance on operant conditioning. I already have a sizable portfolio of good data on observed manifestations of operant conditioning in a variety of environments, including movie theaters (culled from earlier studies, not my own). But I simply can't imagine what kind of environment other than a movie theater would allow me to cross-modulate with a nice, sharp luminance sweep, as is typical of the point at the end of a film when the house lights begin to come on. I could manually coordinate much smaller scale experiments, but the data won't be of much use without more sizable groups of individuals, and I don't have the means to hire a hundred people to stand in a chamber while I turn the lights on So, as weird as it may sound, it's really a quite simple and valid project, and I don't quite see what real potential there is for any serious abuse or monkey business, provided everything is done simply, minimalistically and with the proper clearances.

I sincerely apologize if some of you are finding my psychobabble hard to decode, and I will gladly break things down in as much detail as anyone would care to have. I'm an open book.
 

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Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 02-10-2014, 01:00 AM:
 
I may be willing to offer help, but my situation may not be the best: I work at a second-run movie theater, and you're basically looking at a 40 patron cap. In perhaps a not-so-new or pretty auditorium.
 

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Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 02-10-2014, 01:05 AM:
 
Unless I'm missing something, which is likely, I don't think you're going to get the results that you think you're going to get by monitoring people leaving a theatre at the end of the show. The increase in the room's lighting isn't the factor that motivates the crowd to move. The fact that the show is over does that. You also have the people who sit through at least part of the credits who will also distort your results.

I could possibly understand your purpose if it was to monitor the effect of the end of a movie; how long it takes people to put their coats on, gather their purses/kids/etc. But that's something completely different than the fact that the lights came on. You've got the wrong stimulus at a theatre, so I don't think your results will be valid.
 

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Posted by Justin Silverstein (Member # 8118) on 02-10-2014, 01:19 AM:
 
Buck- thanks! I've PMed you.

Frank- Excellent points, but I fear I've failed to make myself clear on the nature of the experiment--the stimulus isn't the luminance increase. Rather, I have a nice dataset quantifying a palette of behaviors and stimuli relevant to various transitional events in certain venues, and one such event in the dataset happens to be the conclusion of a film presentation in a darkened room, with no sudden illumination introduced. Some of the studied behaviors are known to be luminance-sensitive, others are known not to be, and still others are indeterminate. My interest is (among other things) in constructing a comparison dataset as similar as possible to the original with luminance variance introduced, exactly as normally happens at the conclusion of a film. This will open up far-reaching possibilities for analysis, in conjunction with the existing data. I've run the numbers and am quite confident that a quick-and-dirty simple video along the lines of my description in the OP will get the job done. And I sincerely thank you for expressing your methodological concerns! I'm not perfect and there's always a chance of foolish errors in thinking.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-10-2014, 10:10 AM:
 
This doesn't sound like a very practical project at all. I'm not sure how any scientific results could be gained from such a study. Too many variables are involved.

There's a number of legal hurdles that would have to be overcome just to get started. It would be difficult getting permission from the theater to shoot video inside an auditorium.

Whether the video was intended for personal or commercial purposes, everyone in the audience would probably need to sign a consent/release form. This would be mandatory if the video was going to be sold to a stock library that sells footage. Getting a few hundred strangers to agree to sign a release form would be impossible. Some just wouldn't agree to it at all. Others might expect to get paid. Even with no release forms I'm sure plenty of audience members wouldn't be too keen on being videotaped.

And then there's the matter of shooting video that looks halfway worth a damn.

quote: Justin Silverstein

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Fancy cameras needn't be used to capture the footage, either. Any late-model mobile phone capable of recording 1080p video would do the trick just fine.

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quote: Justin Silverstein

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This project is very important and has a considerable budget, so I'm certainly not just looking for favors here.

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quote: Justin Silverstein

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Fancy cameras needn't be used to capture the footage, either.

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quote: Justin Silverstein

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, and that it will in fact be possible to commission such a video from a theater employee via internet

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quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens

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If I am correct, I believe it is a criminal offense to operate a recording device inside a movie theatre, I don't think it matters if you are recording the movie or not.

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The only way it would be "illegal" would be if the screen was in the shot. Even then, it might be possible to "mask" the screen by putting some sort of object in between it and the camera lens so that only the audience would be seen in the video.

At any rate, it's not illegal to operate a recording device in a theater -- for example you could video your friends waving or something. It only becomes illegal when the camera is pointed at the screen. Theater operators, looking to simplify, just say that you can't operate a recording device inside their auditoriums period.
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 02-10-2014, 01:57 PM:
 
And just to be hyper picky, it's not criminal. Recording would be a civil offense if you violated a copyright. There is criminal copyright violation, but that takes more, recent incident with Google Glasses not withstanding.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-10-2014, 04:43 PM:
 
Imagine all of the answering machines throughout the years used to answer the phone hot movie times that would have been busted on the "no recording device" law.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-10-2014, 05:27 PM:
 
I wouldn't have a problem recording such footage in our auditorium. Unfortunately this comes a bit late, as we just had a couple of showings with all of our 400 seats occupied, which, frankly doesn't happen often nowadays.

I would think that a local concert hall would also be an excellent location.

http://www.google.de/search?q=philharmonie+köln&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&sour ce=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=D2D5UsHTB4WNtQad7YD4BA&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg&biw=1276&bih=690

Is the number of exits relevant, any other specifics regarding angle, full inclusion of audience, etc?

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Michael Putlack (Member # 6523) on 02-10-2014, 06:10 PM:
 
If I were you, I'd just go to a movie on a busy night and bring a gopro. Sit in the back row in the corner. Set up shop. Know the run time of the movie ahead of time, and about 10 minutes beforehand hit record and you'll catch the lights coming up and the crowd leaving. The worst thing that would happen is someone would ask you not to. And if that happens, so be it.
 

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Posted by Justin Silverstein (Member # 8118) on 02-10-2014, 11:11 PM:
 
Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. Let me just go through and address them:

Bobby- on the science, I hear you, but I've found similar research to be surprisingly productive. I totally get your skepticism, but really do have every reason to believe this will get me the data I need. But on the question of legal hurdles and release forms, I'm afraid you're mistaken--since this footage would never be seen by another human being except me and whoever shot it, no legal permission from the crowd would be required, as two lawyers have confirmed for me. As to cameras and lenses, it's not necessary for literally the entire theater to be captured in shot, just as large a portion of the audience as possible. A good view from a viewport by the projector, for example, would get the job done, with no need for a wide-angle lens. As far as lighting goes, house lights would be up at least somewhat for almost the entire duration of the video, so I'd think it would be possible to make out the movements of the crowd well enough.

Terry- whoa, the budget isn't THAT considerable! I just meant that there is, in fact, a budget, as opposed to me trying to wrangle someone into doing something for nothing.

Carsten- Thanks for that, I've PMed you.

Michael- That was actually the very first solution that occurred to me, and I reluctantly rejected it. I figure, since I'd be sitting there in the back for the entire duration of the ending credits, I'd be just about the only one left by the end, and staff would be there to clean by then (and possibly standing there looking at me for minutes on end before that). I can't think of any way to make a recording under those circumstances without it being pretty obvious to them that I'm doing so. Surely they wouldn't tolerate that? And if they do notice that I'm recording (and I can't see how they wouldn't), won't I face a lifetime ban from that theater at minimum, and quite likely more serious penalties? Not to mention losing all the footage, bringing me back to square one. (If anyone has any input on this that's not ideal for public posting, please PM me with it.)

Thanks again for the advice everyone! And if anyone who sees this can help in any way, I truly appreciate it. Just let me know here or in a PM.
 

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Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 02-10-2014, 11:22 PM:
 
This isn't intended to sound hostile, but I suggest that anyone who's considering doing this should get an opinion from THEIR OWN LAWYER first. The fact that you have apparently cleared this with your own lawyers really isn't much use to anyone else who may be considering getting involved in this scheme.

Perhaps you should offer to pay the fees incurred in getting that opinion?
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-10-2014, 11:25 PM:
 
What about shooting your footage from the FRONT of the auditorium so the screen wouldn't be involved? If you were to do it that way, and try to find a theater with the owner in the building (difficult these days but it can be done), explain your project and it should be relatively simple once the owner knows your motives aren't "suspect."
 

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Posted by Justin Silverstein (Member # 8118) on 02-10-2014, 11:28 PM:
 
Frank, while I of course understand and respect what you're saying, I don't think it's necessary for people to contact their own lawyers pre-emptively. If desired, I would be happy to write up and sign a formal contract affirming that the footage will be shared with no one and seen by no one, and offering to assume the burden of any legal culpability that might result were I to violate that promise. (IMHO, this would really be overkill, as the level of legal risk involved is minimal as far as I can tell, but I'll do it if that's what people need to feel comfortable working with me.) Paying for pre-emptive legal consultation fees for each individual who works with me isn't going to work for my budget, though.

And, Mike- interesting idea, and one of the first to occur to me, but none of the theater owners I spoke to would have any of it.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-11-2014, 08:54 AM:
 
I know from my own experience doing photography work that it is best to get signed release forms from anybody in the shot if there is any chance the imagery could be used for any possible commercial purpose.

If the photography is strictly nothing more than snap shots for personal use, like putting in the family album then obviously no releases are required. Something shot for journalistic purposes may not require signed releases. But that is a gray area considering some people are in the business of selling imagery or video footage to news agencies, which arguably makes their effort more commercial rather than editorial.

What is the end goal of this scientific study? Will the results be published, including the video imagery? Will someone eventually pay for that material? You mentioned "commissioning" others to take video. Does that mean paying others for that work?

When in doubt, get people in your photos or video to sign a release form. It's kind of a CYA type of thing.
 

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Posted by Michael Putlack (Member # 6523) on 02-11-2014, 01:54 PM:
 
Here is a solution similar to Terry's:

First go to the theatre and speak to management about their group discount rate. If you're talking about a group of 200+ people, you might be able to get tickets to a matinee showing at a discount (second-run) theatre for as cheap as a dollar or two a ticket. Even at a first run theatre you might be able to get that many tickets to a Monday matinee for pretty cheap.

So, see if that fits in your budget, if not, maybe tell your focus group that they can see a movie for half the price you're paying for it. So, if you're quoted $2 a ticket at the discount house, tell the focus group they can see the movie for a dollar and I bet a good number of people would come out. If you buy out the auditorium and the group know they will be observed, I don't expect the management to have an issue with you recording as long as it isn't the screen.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-11-2014, 04:26 PM:
 

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens

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If I am correct, I believe it is a criminal offense to operate a recording device inside a movie theatre, I don't think it matters if you are recording the movie or not. There would be some legal matters here...

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quote:

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To "case a joint" is to check out the details to, and make speculations about, a home, car, store or other location for means of getting in undetected and/or removing material from said location.

Usually referred to negatively as a means to describe being suspicious someone is going to steal someone's belongings, it can also simply be a synonym for reconnaissance.
1. That banger over there was casing the joint when I came in this morning.

2. Tell Tommy to go case the Sanders' joint and see if Paulie's car is there.

3. I saw you going out to case a joint earlier, you better not take anything.

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In case anyone is reading this a long time from now...

This had happened fairly recently.
 

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Posted by Justin Silverstein (Member # 8118) on 02-11-2014, 07:23 PM:
 
Bobby- for all intents and purposes, this footage can be considered "personal use". There will eventually be a publication, but not of this reference footage itself, nor any closely related description or representation of it. Whatever data is eventually published will have been abstracted by quite a few layers. It's certainly not as though a direct description or accounting of behaviors of specific individuals will be published.

Michael- Interesting idea! If worst comes to absolute worst, maybe I'll attempt to make that work. I have my doubts as to whether I'll be able to wrangle a crowd on my own with the resources available to me, but it's at least worthy of consideration. Hopefully, such drastic measures won't be necessary.

Thanks of course to everyone else who's had input as well. I knew I came to the right place.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-11-2014, 07:48 PM:
 
Oh, come on, Manny. This is not a theoretical issue. Request is for footage of any auditorium with the lights going up and people exiting. No need to know when and where this was recorded, obviously.

If you wanted to get access to this kind of information for a real venue, their website with the schedule is the first place to go, and you wouldn't need to record a video, but just buy a ticket and look at your watch being there. No need to create this kind of attention on a forum beforehand. The scene he is after happens hundreds of thousands of times every single day all around the world.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-11-2014, 08:13 PM:
 
My position remains unchanged.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-11-2014, 08:19 PM:
 
Also he's not looking for "hours and hours" of footage, maybe what, 3 minutes tops?
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-11-2014, 08:50 PM:
 
Mhmm.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-12-2014, 07:27 AM:
 
Manny, please! Put down your glasses! ;-)

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-12-2014, 10:56 AM:
 

quote: Carsten Kurz

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IF individuals are featured in any special way, you have to get their permission. This is common law in germany.

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quote: Carsten Kurz

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Frankly, I wouldn't know why this should be evaluated by a lawyer.

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