Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: App for Drive in radio stations?

This is topic App for Drive in radio stations? in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Paul Goulet (Member # 297) on 06-25-2016, 01:44 PM:

Anyone know of a App that can be used at a Drive-in movie theater?

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 06-25-2016, 02:49 PM:

For what purpose?

Posted by Paul Goulet (Member # 297) on 06-25-2016, 03:41 PM:

for customers to listen to the sound from the movie while sitting in there cars, rather then using there car radios

Posted by Christopher Perkins (Member # 8917) on 06-25-2016, 03:57 PM:

A phone app? There are devices that you can buy.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 06-25-2016, 04:02 PM:

Most cell phones include FM radio chips but they are not activated and can't be used by the person who owns the phone.

See here for more details on that.

Therefore, you would need to provide the audio as a streaming mp3 or ogg from a streaming audio server.

Yes, this could be done.

No, it couldn't be synchronized consistently with the action on the screen.

The powers-that-be would likely require that your streaming audio server be accessible only from within the area of your drive in. Again, this could be done but your customers will be competing for some pretty limited bandwidth through a standard wifi hotspot. Six AP's would be about the maximum you can use at one location; I don't know how many clients each one could support -- that depends on the quality of the audio (bitrate) you're trying to stream to them.

Maybe you could do something with bluetooth; I don't know enough about that to be sure.

But either way you'll still have a synchronization issue that is, as far as I know, unsolvable.

I used to run the streaming audio server for a radio station and the stream was always somewhere between 20 and 40 seconds behind the live signal by the time it arrived at the client's device.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-25-2016, 06:11 PM:

Great answer.

Posted by Christopher Perkins (Member # 8917) on 06-25-2016, 07:59 PM:

No my question was from the original question. When he says app is he asking is there a phone app?

Posted by Paul Goulet (Member # 297) on 06-25-2016, 11:52 PM:

yes, phone app

Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 06-26-2016, 02:01 PM:

We've actually had several customers at the 99W ask for that. Our response as to why that's not happening reflects Frank's comments about restricting the audio access withtn the property, and streaming sync issues.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-26-2016, 04:22 PM:

I don't see why the technology shouldn't work, in theory.

You can buy a media streaming encoder for a few hundred dollars. You would also need to set up your own Wi-Fi network. I have seen a media encoder that has a Wi-Fi built in.

I think it should be possible for customers to log in to the Wi-Fi network (use a password if security is an issue) then open the stream's URL from whatever browser the user has on his mobile device.

In theory, this should work.

Now... There are lots of potential problems...

First is the delay which everybody has already mentioned. I don't know if there is a way to eliminate it. It might not be possible.

Second is how to make a Wi-Fi network with enough power/range to cover a whole drive-in. I'm sure it's possible but at what expense? I'm sure that several Wi-Fi's could be set up as a network. I've seen it done in other places. I'm sure it's expensive, though.

Third is how reliable it is. What if the customer's device fails, malfunctions or some other unforeseeable circumstance. Will this work with all browsers? How do you ensure compatibility across platforms? I suppose you could create an app that automatically connects to the stream.

This should be doable but there are a lot of "gotchas."

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 06-26-2016, 04:42 PM:

These folks only want to do "everything on my phone!" Simply put, the phone is not the way to enjoy a multi-tracked and wide band dynamic sound recording. It can be done but only for the thrill of "having it in an APP on my phone!"

Put the phone in your pocket and enjoy the movie from your fine stereo radio. That is already a compromise from how it sounds in a hardtop.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-26-2016, 05:03 PM:

Even if the latency issue could be solved (unlikely), what would be the advantage vs. FM broadcast? Clearer reception? Potential for better quality sound for people using fancy headphones? Sound for people without car radios (but who happen to have fancy telephones?!?)?

I could see having an app for your theatre for showtimes and maybe even concession ordering (does any drive-in do food delivery to cars? that might be interesting, actually), but, unless I am missing something significant, I don't see the benefit for delivering movie sound.

Plus, having light-up things in the car in front of yours is annoying at the drive-in. And would the batteries on an ithing even last for a double-feature?

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 06-26-2016, 05:37 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
First is the delay which everybody has already mentioned. I don't know if there is a way to eliminate it. It might not be possible.

One of the issues here is different devices are going to have different issues. Plus if someone has other apps open on their phone it might cause delays. Even if we had everything set up perfectly on our end, its just seems like there are far too many variables to make this work. Then you need to worry about having someone knowledgeable onsite every night to deal with the variety of connectivity issues which are bound to come up.

It's basically the same issue as trying to provide closed captioning and descriptive narration at the drive-in. At least with the Visually Impaired Narration you could have an alternate radio station which it is was run through.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-26-2016, 08:12 PM:

I've asked around, but haven't actually seen one of these things in use. The issue of synchronization, even if a phone can process FM, is really the first one that needs to be addressed. If it can't (or won't) be done, then the phone won't work... period.

We've also thought about the idea of purchasing concessions through a phone app, but rejected that as well. Again, too many issues to make the novelty worthwhile.

At a place like ours, there are way too many options available to the customer. You order a sandwich. On our POS system, the system brings up the questions of options... Add Cheese? Bacon? Chili? Fries? No onions (or several other condiments)? Oh... on the fries... Garlic? Cheese? Chili? Crumbled bacon?
Similar options screens exist for just about everything else... Popcorn (flavor shakers), Pizzas, Drinks (hot and cold),

Our cashiers work through those lists in seconds, in organized fashion and with smiles on their faces. The general public would likely find our system a frustrating, confusing mess. And yet, those lists of options largely grew from our experience with the customers at our counters, where they ask for everything imaginable, and where, in a "cook to order" service, they usually get it.

I suppose we could offer a simplified menu, but as soon as the "outside customers" figured out there were options they could only get inside, the whole thing would turn into a gripe-fest.

Then, the issue of successfully punching in your credit card. That's done often enough, I suppose, but added to the challenge of ordering, it's just another frustration.

OK. Order's done... goes to us... is finished and in our scenario, we text or call you to come pick it up (carhops are out of the question). You come in, work your way through the pickup line and probably spend a bit of time, looking at everything to see if we got it right. When your order hit our POS system, does it appear ahead of everyone who's standing in line, waiting their turn?

Our system has a screen in the back, where items produced in the kitchen appear. What is produced by the counter employees out front only shows up on their screens. We'd have to rethink our entire POS system to make this work.

All in all, we don't see the novelty as something that would end up being a positive experience. Actually, people sort of like working through the line. They know there's something good at the end of it, and they see it as a "shared adventure" of sorts. They also see some 15 people behind the counter, busting their chops to get things done, unlike the counter at your local post office!

Nope... Nope... Nope. Oh, we haven't bought into offering wifi, either, though I know other drive-ins do this for their own reasons. No comment on whether it's a good idea or not... we just haven't chosen to do so here.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-26-2016, 11:07 PM:

quote:
At a place like ours, there are way too many options available to the customer. ...

The general public would likely find our system a frustrating, confusing mess. ... in a "cook to order" service, they usually get it. ...

I suppose we could offer a simplified menu ... the whole thing would turn into a gripe-fest. ...

Then, the issue of successfully punching in your credit card. ...

OK. Order's done... goes to us... is finished ... You come in, work your way through the pickup line and probably spend a bit of time, looking at everything to see if we got it right. ...

When your order hit our POS system, does it appear ahead of everyone who's standing in line, waiting their turn?

Not to suggest you do any of this but strictly for discussion... Sheetz Convenience Stores have an on-line order system that works pretty well.

https://order.sheetz.com

You can order on-line, tell them what time you want to come and pick it up pay by credit card if you want to. (I always pay at the counter.) You simply walk in and give them your name. (Account User Name) They'll call your name you when your order is ready then you pay for the food at the cashier. (Wait in line if there are other customers.)

The one thing is that EVERYTHING you order from Sheetz food counter is entered from touch screen terminals. The machine prints out a ticket number. You take that ticket to the cashier and they scan the ticket number. Once paid, the kitchen knows it's okay to give out the food. For an on-line order, you give them your name.

The system works well. I've used it many times without a problem. The thing is that it would be quite an expense.

It's a neat idea but I don't think you would ever want to do it at a drive-in.

Posted by Rex Oliver (Member # 7593) on 06-27-2016, 12:21 AM:

I would not want to listen to a movie soundtrack thru the speaker on my phone-but could you use the phone to receive the soundtrack thru the theaters WiFi broadcast to the phone-if the phone has WiFi-mine does-then you could route the sound from the phone thru your cars sound system.Suppose that could work-but the Gotchas as others point out.Just a thought.There is always the speaker on the post!Its been YEARS since I went to a drive in!Liked them,though-just fun.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-27-2016, 04:13 AM:

Of course, the old drive-in speakers would still work, if the field wiring is still in decent shape. We have one small drive-in here that still uses them along with their FM system.

As for wifi... nope. As has been noted here, anything that adds encoding and decoding delay is a problem. We've run into the same issue with digital broadcast audio processors and studio-to-transmitter links, to the point that few stations can use their off-air audio in their announcers' headsets any more.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-27-2016, 09:27 AM:

The original question begs the question, why in the world would you not want to listen to the movie on your car radio? What's the point of wanting to play the sound on a phone?

Posted by Chris Markiewicz (Member # 1415) on 06-27-2016, 10:26 AM:

Chiming in, we looked into the wifi idea some time ago. The latency issue as well as being able to cover the fields killed it for us. We've done a lot to provide our customers with the best sound quality possible. The only issue we've really run into is people who don't know how to tune their radios to one of our frequencies.

Posted by Paul Goulet (Member # 297) on 06-27-2016, 12:05 PM:

OK, so here is the problem we are having with sound at the drive in. we have 3 screens and 3 different radio frequencies. One of the screens has a station that also uses the same frequency that we use for that screen. On the weekends, the radio station makes adjustments so that there signal travels further and interrupts the station that we are using for that screen. Either customers can't hear anything at all.. or there is static. With all the phone apps that are out there, i figured maybe there one was one for radio stations

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 06-27-2016, 12:24 PM:

quote: Paul Goulet
....One of the screens has a station that also uses the same frequency that we use for that screen. On the weekends, the radio station makes adjustments so that there signal travels further and interrupts the station that we are using for that screen.

Then all you need to do is change the frequency of that screen's transmitter. [Roll Eyes]

Why overcomplicate a very simple fix? As mentioned, you would be looking at a large investment in time and money to get the audio to a phone app PLUS you'd have to overcome the huge delay issue..oh, and then you'd have to do that THREE times as you couldn't leave the other two screens on radio..that would really confuse and piss off your customers.

EVERY transmitter ever made for DI use has the ability to change frequency...it may not be obvious to an end user but it CAN be changed. (It may require access to an internal adjustment or changing a component or two but any competent tech can do it quickly.)

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-27-2016, 12:26 PM:

Is this AM or FM?

Have you tried switching frequencies? There is a web site here that will help you find vacant frequencies in your area.

No doubt the broadcast engineers here will be able to help you further with improving your signal while not stomping on someone else's licensed frequency.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-27-2016, 12:29 PM:

quote: Paul Goulet
OK, so here is the problem we are having with sound at the drive in. we have 3 screens and 3 different radio frequencies. One of the screens has a station that also uses the same frequency that we use for that screen. On the weekends, the radio station makes adjustments so that there signal travels further and interrupts the station that we are using for that screen. Either customers can't hear anything at all.. or there is static. With all the phone apps that are out there, i figured maybe there one was one for radio stations

Yah.... I think you'll have to look elsewhere for your solution, Paul. Anything that requires sending your audio somewhere, only to have it come back to someone's phone is guaranteed to be delayed. How much delay doesn't matter... it would run from irritable to completely unusable.

Your comment that the station you're broadcasting over makes changes to its power on the weekend is interesting. The FCC and, so far as I know, the Canadian CRTC doesn't license any FM station to run multiple power levels. No matter though. Actually, you're running a bit of a risk, broadcasting over a frequency that's also being used by a properly-licensed radio station. Are there no other frequencies you could move to? The lower "reserved" band channels (frequencies below 92.1) are usually good prospects, as you're more likely to find the stations on them to be spread out and of lower power. Still... anything that's quiet is a much better choice than competing with a station on its own frequency. It hasn't happened often, but we've had to move our own channels a couple of times over the years.

Another thought. You should still look for another channel, but if your system is so weak it can't overcome an outside station within your own perimeter, you're either pushing against a fairly strong station or your own system might have some problems. It usually doesn't take much for a transmitter to dominate within a short distance around its antenna.

Posted by Paul Goulet (Member # 297) on 06-27-2016, 01:26 PM:

we first started having a problem at the beginning of the season (April) and we did change frequencies ..the problem seems to be that the other stations bump up there signal on the weekends which makes it worse

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 06-27-2016, 03:33 PM:

About 6-7 years ago we had a community access channel take over the frequency of our drive-in station over the winter. We didn't realize it until the opening night of next season when people weren't able to get the movie sound. I don't know if the station had previously existed or just got a more powerful transmitter. Unfortunately at the time I didn't have any manuals or other information on how to set the frequency.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 06-27-2016, 04:19 PM:

After being closed all winter you didn't test your setup at all before selling tickets and attempting to show a movie to the public?

*boggle*

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-28-2016, 11:34 AM:

Out of curiousity, what happens at multi-screen drive-ins with regard to frequency selection? There is a ten-screen DI somewhere in Florida, I believe. Do they really have ten open FM frequencies in that area? Do they have some screens on AM (or using field speakers)?

As for the phone app thing: I suppose that with D-cinema it would be possible to advance the sound playback by some amount on the server side, but that would only work if the delay on the playback side were consistent (which it wouldn't be) and within the range of adjustment on the server. And the sound would also need to run through a delay box before hitting the FM transmitter to undo the offset, since not everyone will have a cell phone and many who do will prefer the sound quality of a car radio to that of a telephone speaker. And there is still the question of battery life on a cell phone.

In principle, you could probably provide wi-fi coverage for a local streaming server to 400-ish clients, but doing so would not be cheap (a $400-ish access point can reasonably serve ~25 client devices--maybe more if you mix 2.4GHz and 5GHz devices...and they are not weather proof). You would probably need a good wireless consultant to set it up, and you won't like the pricing on Cisco, Aruba, or Ruckus wireless gear.

One possibility, now that some car radios have "aux input" jacks would be to provide a line-level signal at each speaker pole and then sell or rent cables to allow people to connect that directly to their cars.

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 06-28-2016, 05:37 PM:

I'd suggest getting an RF professional to look at this; it sounds to me like a problem that can be solved with more appropriate transmitting aerials.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 06-28-2016, 05:50 PM:

quote: Frank Cox
After being closed all winter you didn't test your setup at all before selling tickets and attempting to show a movie to the public?

We did test it, but it was fine when we tested. It might be the radio station signs off after a certain hour, so when I tested late at night/early morning there was no interference. Regardless, we learned a valuable lesson.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-28-2016, 08:32 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
One possibility, now that some car radios have "aux input" jacks would be to provide a line-level signal at each speaker pole and then sell or rent cables to allow people to connect that directly to their cars.

That would be a major time consuming factor for the boxoffice personnel since their main goal is to get cars off the entrance roads to not plug up traffic that are on those main roads as quick as possible - along a huge "babysitting" issue with taking ID's for rent out of such accessories..plus an added and unnecessary maintenance.

I do drive ins were we have to get cars in as quick as possible.

Sounds like a nifty idea, but realistically, it would be a total disaster.

-Monte

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-29-2016, 11:52 AM:

All good points. I was thinking that it would be more of a concession-stand item, but I agree that dealing with these at the boxoffice would take too long. Most of the drive-ins that I have visited already have long lines for the boxoffice (good for them, but annoying for the customers).

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 06-30-2016, 05:49 PM:

And..... Its possible this might be a solved problem, for a mere two grand of your green folding stuff.

I know no more than the webpage says, and in particular, don't know what the latency is like. But if it works, well...

The company this comes from, Stage Research, are highly respected in the theatre community, so I have expectations this will work as it says on the can.

They actually seem to be reselling this product.