Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Are you gonna get an Apple HomePod?

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-23-2018, 07:14 PM:

I read a little about Apple's new "smart speaker" today. Among other things, it has software for “real-time acoustic modeling, audio beam-forming, echo cancellation” and has spatial awareness to sense where it is in a room so that it can self-adjust its settings. It has a nice woofer for bass and seven “beam-forming tweeters that provide pure high frequency acoustics with directional control.”

Oh and it has a $349 price tag. I guess it needs all the above gobbledegook to justify that.

So, hmm, not sure what to think about this. It will work with Apple Music of course, but its relationships with other music services like Spotify are more questionable.

Hard to believe that in the '70s and '80s everybody was saving their money to buy 300-watt amplifiers with huge speakers with "thundering" bass that would give you rock-concert type sound in your living room if you wanted it, and now people are satisfied with their tunes coming from little wimpy speakers called Echo and Homepod. I mean, they sound good for their size, but come on.

Here's a link to the article I read:

Linkety-link-link

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-23-2018, 07:43 PM:

The usual recommendation for people who want this sort of thing is to look at Sonos. I haven't used it, but everyone who has seems to like their products, which aren't tied to any one music service (and thus will likely have a longer useful life). They make a box that can be used with an existing home stereo, as well as units with built-in speakers.

Realistically, anyone who cares about sound quality probably already has a nice stereo system and probably isn't very interested in streaming, aside from maybe something like Tidal, which Sonos apparently supports.

Personally, I am not really interested in subscribing to a music service, but I can see why people would see the value in doing so versus spending the same amount of money on physical copies of recordings.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-23-2018, 10:43 PM:

In the interest of full disclosure, we do have an Amazon Echo at home (I got it for Christmas in 2016) but I use it mostly to play Jeopardy, as a kitchen timer, and to listen to news.

I hardly ever listen to music with it because almost without fail, what I want to listen to isn't available on Amazon "Unlimited" Music, or I can't get it to play what I want to hear.

Even the news channels often get interrupted by 10 continuous minutes of commercials (they play the same commercials ad nauseum) or random music, which usually leads me to go turn on the TV like I did before we got the Echo.

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 01-23-2018, 11:14 PM:

We've had a couple Amazon Echoes for a few years. We use it mostly to listen to radio stations. For stations that are not available through it, we get them on a phone, then use Blue Tooth to connect to the echo. I also listen to Pandora on it. I also use it as an alarm clock and kitchen timer. Works well for us!

Harold

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 01-24-2018, 12:35 AM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Hard to believe that in the '70s and '80s everybody was saving their money to buy 300-watt amplifiers with huge speakers with "thundering" bass that would give you rock-concert type sound in your living room if you wanted it, and now people are satisfied with their tunes coming from little wimpy speakers called Echo and Homepod. I mean, they sound good for their size, but come on.

Plus the fact that unless you buy two for a room, it's mono. We've gone back 60 years. But I am willing to wait until I hear one to judge, not that I think I would ever buy one. I have a very nice A/V receiver based sound system in my living room for video as well as a 2-channel preamp and power amp for 2-channel music listening.

Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 01-24-2018, 02:36 PM:

I have a couple of lightning dock stations that I just plug my phone into, one in the bedroom and one in the living room. I use them to listen to football and hockey games on via SiriusXM and occasionally music or radio (via TuneIn) in the bedroom to fall asleep to. Both are stereo and combined cost way less than a Home Pod. The bedroom one, a Philips, sounds like ass, but the Sony in the living is actually pretty impressive.

Not sure why I'd need a separate device when the existing setup charges my phone at the same time.

I have a friend who has a bunch of the small Echos around her house which she uses for all of the above plus as an intercom system to check in on her kids. She loves them.

I'm not a real serious music listener at home, though on rare occasions where I get the bug, I do have the real receiver, real CD player, BD-A audio capability, and Boston VR-series speakers capable of handling that.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-24-2018, 05:58 PM:

I think the BOSE Wave Radio would sound better, even though one could make their own folded horn speaker setup and save some pennies.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 01-25-2018, 11:23 AM:

quote: Martin Brooks
unless you buy two for a room, it's mono.

Even if you buy 2, you will just have 2 mono speakers.

The Echo Dot (and possibly other versions), while only mono itself, has a 3.5mm stereo jack so you can connect it to your stereo sound system for true stereo.

I have the original Echo along with an audiophile grade stereo system in my living room. While no comparison to the stereo, the sound is actually pretty good on the Echo. I use it to play Pandora Radio while doing tasks around the house.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 01-25-2018, 12:09 PM:

“Even if you buy 2, you will just have 2 mono speakers”

Well any speakers, even if sold in pairs, are individually mono. HomePod is supposed to detect when there are 2 of them present and switch to proper stereo mode with one being L and one being R.

Or maybe I misunderstand your point.

I’m interested in HomePod but need to be convinced.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 01-25-2018, 12:16 PM:

I was referring to the Amazon Echo, which does not have that capability.

I have not had any dealings with the HomePod, but the Amazon Echo so far is the only smart device that answered the question "What is the meaning of life?" with the correct answer, "42".

Posted by Tony Magallanes (Member # 10196) on 01-25-2018, 02:48 PM:

Then there are the reports that these home devices are monitoring everything we say and do so as to target us with advertisements because we evidently need more! LoL...!!!
(I feel another Matrix sequel coming on...) LoL!

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 01-25-2018, 04:14 PM:

By the nature of the way that they work they have to monitor everything, otherwise how would they know when you issue a command?

Stuff that you say other than issuing commands isn't supposed to be sent anywhere, though. How much you trust that assurance is up to you.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-25-2018, 06:47 PM:

They're not supposed to be listening unless you yell out the wake-up word, which in the case of the Echo, it's Alexa. Once the light goes off, the microphone is turned off.

Or so they say. Conspiracy theorists probably have another idea.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 01-25-2018, 07:44 PM:

The microphone isn't off when the light is off or the device wouldn't work. No conspiracy required; if it can hear you say the magic work it's listening.

The device may or may not be transmitting the data to another location. That's a completely different question and since the device is a closed black box, there's no way to get a reliable answer other than "trust us". So if you do (trust them) then you're all set.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-25-2018, 10:30 PM:

Yeah I realize that...I mis-spoke. I guess I meant that the "system isn't supposed to be activated" unless you say the magic word.

Oh well. If Amazon really wants to listen to me cook supper, I guess I don't give a hoot. When I do say words, it's mostly to cuss out Alexa for playing crap I don't want to hear before I shut it off and go turn the TV back on.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 02-07-2018, 07:25 PM:

Initial reports from reviewers is that the sound is terrific and better than the competition (but better than a full-sized hi-fi system?), but that Siri sucks and while it has a lot of capability into controlling home devices through the Apple system, it doesn't do many of the things that the competition does.

I find this woman extremely annoying, but she's apparently a YouTube star and if this video is taken in her home and not a set, she's obviously doing quite well. She gives a demo of the Home Pod:
Home Pod

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-07-2018, 07:40 PM:

So, did anyone get this thing? I would be curious to hear about the sound quality from people who actually know what good sound quality is (as opposed to people whose frame of reference consists of "THX-certified" computer speakers and Beats headphones)

Apple would never do it, but I think that they should have de-coupled the "smart" part from the "speaker" part. Good loudspeakers have a lifespan measured in multiple decades, while computers have a life-span of approximately a half-decade or less. Users shouldn't need to throw away a good speaker just to upgrade the computer part of it. And many of us already have decent speakers (and sound systems). Unfortunately, Apple in 2017 seems to be mostly in the business of selling sleek-looking hardware that works in one particular way, rather than practical hardware that can be easily mixed and matched with existing equipment.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-07-2018, 09:03 PM:

The speakers in those devices only work with the electronics, they need the smart part. Personally I still prefer to listen to music over conventional music systems with larger speakers. The type of speakers used in small portable devices would sound very poor without the advanced acoustical design of the whole device, the DSP, EQ and driver technology. Some of these gadgets have audio outputs, so if you want, you may connect them to your stereo system.

- Carsten

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-07-2018, 11:16 PM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
The speakers in those devices only work with the electronics, they need the smart part.

To clarify: what I was thinking is that they could put the DSP part and the amplifier part in the speakers and sell them as "powered monitors" or something like that. Then, the voice-recognition/network/processing part could be offered as a separate device, either for use with the speaker or to be connected to an existing sound system. Then, in a few years, the customer could just replace the latter item. But the point is moot, anyway, since Apple won't do it.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 02-20-2018, 12:52 AM:

I listened to it in an Apple store. On recently recorded material, it sounded pretty good for a small device, especially if you like a strong bass. On older material that was originally analog, it only sounded fair, but that might have partially been a function of everything coming from Apple Music and the digital quality of those old tracks might not have been all that great. Of course, without an A-B test with the same source material in a quiet environment, it's really hard to tell whether it's better than other small systems or not.

Surprisingly, even in the noisy store environment, Siri worked pretty well. I asked it first to play Killing Floor and it played the Jimi Hendrix version of that track. I then asked it to play the Butterfield Blues Band and it played tracks from the first album. It recognized "next" and "louder" and "lower". In the same store, I tried using voice commands on the Apple TV and it was far less accurate.

Note that it takes two units to play in stereo, but the software doesn't yet support stereo playback.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 7758) on 02-21-2018, 03:49 PM:

No. I don't do Apple.

Signed,

Curmudge N. Luddite.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 02-21-2018, 04:11 PM:

Ive yet to hear a good sounding Apple product but maybe this will be a little better. After playing with my friends Google and Amazon voice activated speaker I just don't see the hype in all these personally. YMMV but unless you want to constantly yell at the thing to do something different your better off getting a Sonos system.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-22-2018, 04:56 AM:

quote: Frank Cox
The microphone isn't off when the light is off or the device wouldn't work. No conspiracy required; if it can hear you say the magic work it's listening.

We've analyzed the traffic of both the Google and Amazon devices.

Both are constantly listening while being turned on. Google claims they only send the voice to the server, once they're turned on via their query-word. This seems to be true. Although the device is constantly communicating with Google, it's clear it is not voice data what they're transmitting.

The Alexa devices are a different thing though. They transmit much more data and we're in the impression they're transmitting some voice, even before you're calling the "magic word".

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-22-2018, 08:40 AM:

I have a hard time getting excited about any of these little speaker devices, whether they're serving up music via WiFi or your phone's Bluetooth connection. As far as I can tell these speakers are monaural, not stereo. If they are putting out stereo they sure don't sound like it. I guess that's the way it is these days, with "surround sound" being a Dolby Atmos-capable sound bar you stick under the TV screen.
[Roll Eyes]

I also find it a little creepy these "IOT" speakers are listening to everything anyone says within the device's listening range.

quote: Jarod Reddig
Ive yet to hear a good sounding Apple product but maybe this will be a little better.

The speakers in the iPad Pro aren't bad. I was a little surprised at how decent they sounded. But no one is buying an iPad for the audio quality. I have no desire to buy a HomePod.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-22-2018, 11:02 AM:

Well, the HomePod has six microphones and seven tweeters, both in a 360 degree arrangement.

Since it apparently measures the aspects of the room using this layout, it should be able to render at least two separate channels of sound somewhat convincingly.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-22-2018, 12:11 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I also find it a little creepy these "IOT" speakers are listening to everything anyone says within the device's listening range.

While I do find it a little creepy that it's listening all the time, I don't really see what kind of useful information could be obtained from listening. It's not like we're Google employees talking about company secrets. And I don't say "Hey, I'm about to have some Campbell's Chicken Noodle Soup for lunch!" and cause it to send me a bunch of competing soup ads.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-22-2018, 04:29 PM:

Well, you see, it's all about "privacy creep". I guess when somebody would've proposed about 20 years ago, to put a microphone in your kitchen and record everything you potentially say, then this would've created some repulsive reactions.

Right now, we're doing just that. We're giving a bunch of big corporations access to our inner lives.

The argument is: I've got nothing to hide and what are those big corporations going to do with it anyway?

The problem is: There is no reason to trust those corporations, beyond their somewhat vague promises not to do anything evil with it (if those promises even do exist, because Amazon, for example, promises nothing).

Quite a few of those bigshot corporations have leaked our personal information in the past to God knows who and they will do in the future.

Maybe a good example of what could go wrong... V-Tech is a big Hong Kong based corporation with world-wide sales in the billions which markets "intelligent" children's toys. Many of their latest concoctions connect to the internet. They push almost anything they can capture to some cloud, somewhere. This includes supposedly private pictures taken by 8 year olds, etc. Most parents don't even know anything about it.

About a year or so ago, they got hacked. So, some hackers got access to practically all the data they stored, including pictures, voice recordings, etc. This almost certainly included a lot of very private data that really should not have leaked to any third parties. And those hackers, they're mostly in it for the money. They'll exploit what they get...

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-23-2018, 11:32 AM:

Just recently police in Arkansas were demanding Amazon turn over data from a murder suspect's Echo device. In this case Amazon is refusing to do so until the police satisfy a number of legal requirements beforehand. Here's the bigger question: why is Amazon storing this audio data and/or transcripts from it on their servers? Both Amazon and Google are doing that with their smart home devices. Both companies have a pretty deep reach into our buying habits. Google goes even farther with its search engine, Android OS and ability to document our comings and goings. I don't know how far Apple will go in storing customer audio data or transcripts from it on their servers. But it's a sure bet they'll take some steps to keep up with Amazon and Google.

Amazon, Google and Apple all have some very serious responsibilities with how their devices can affect the privacy rights and overall civil rights of their customers.

Last November critical Bluetooth flaws were discovered that affected 20 million Amazon Echo and Google Home devices. This stemmed from similar flaws that affected billions of Android, iOS, Windows and Linux devices. White hats developed proof of concept hacks showing various ways how the devices could be hacked. Security updates have been released to eliminate the problems. Still, these companies will have to be on the lookout for new threats.

Then there's the issue of governments wanting increased access to consumer data, using ploys like keeping the public safe from terrorists, criminals, etc. That's a very slippery slope, one our currently hysterical general public seems all too willing to enter for a giant belly slide. We may trade freedoms and privacy for the illusion of greater security. The consequences could be further erosion of democracy, governmental abuse of new found powers and even outright tyranny.

There has to be checks in place on all this digitally connected stuff. Even with the technology out there now (smart phones, proliferation of surveillance cameras, etc) if our government was operating as a police state it wouldn't have a difficult time stomping out any political dissent.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-23-2018, 12:35 PM:

Thing is, though, Amazon already has my name, address, credit card number, phone number, and a shitload of my buying habits just from my interacting with their website. I can't imagine what more they would glean from my Echo habits.

I guess if I was a drug dealer I'd think twice about having an Echo in my house though.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-23-2018, 04:01 PM:

Seriously?

https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/doj-seeking-info-on-6000-people-who-liked-anti-trump-facebook-page/

Do you want 5 years of stored home conversations to be subject of a search warrant based on your political view ?

- Carsten

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 02-23-2018, 04:42 PM:

If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged.
- Cardinal Richelieu

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-23-2018, 07:03 PM:

Maybe the "Echo" and similar devices need two microphones: One that's connected to the Amazon or whoever but is NOT always listening, and one that IS always listening for the wake-up word and its only function is to turn on the other one.

And a big red light that comes on when the 'real' connected microphone is listening.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-24-2018, 01:28 AM:

The Google Home devices currently operate in much the same way, although they don't use separate microphones for it. I think the separate microphones in itself also aren't necessary, since you could still cheat in the software.

Google Home devices are constantly listening for their activation phrase "Ok Google / Hey Google". Once they recognized the trigger, they will light up and respond. Everything you say from this point on, will be transmitted to Google.

Like I mentioned in a previous post, the traffic pattern of those devices seems to match Google's claims, at least for now. The Amazon devices don't seem to be playing this nice.

What's even more evil though is one of those new Samsung "intelligent" fridges. I don't know what they're communicating, but they manage to push up to a gigabyte per day of traffic... They do have cameras built-in, who try to scan EAN/IAN codes and expiry dates on the stuff you put in there. I suppose they decided to put this "intelligence" in the "cloud", so it's constantly sending the contents of your fridge to Samsung...

quote: Mike Blakesley
I guess if I was a drug dealer I'd think twice about having an Echo in my house though.

It all seems to be fine for now, as long as the democratic systems around you are still mostly working. But we all know that stuff can go haywire, we only need to look at the recent past or just look around in the world.

Once shit starts turning haywire, you might find yourself on the "wrong" side of things faster than you think, simply based on political views, race, religion, sexual orientation or whatnot. In those cases, those years of stored archive of your inner live, like your buying habits, your Internet searches and even your voice recordings might quickly be turned into a tool against you. And like Frank already anecdotally mentioned, they'll usually find what they're looking for, as long as they look deep enough and have sufficient stuff to look through.

There is this much bespoke Second Amendment, which is supposed to keep the government honest. I think there's a much more important amendment to do just that, the 4th, because in this hyper-connected world, access to information will be the weapons of the future.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-24-2018, 04:37 PM:

The spirit of the 4th amendment has been pretty badly compromised. Once you venture outside of your house very little privacy remains. Surveillance cameras are proliferating at a rapid rate. Facial recognition technology continues to improve. Our phones and other connected devices can literally track where we go, even if the GPS feature is not running.

Most computer users are not savvy enough to use a VPN to protect privacy while surfing online; some ISPs and other connected services discourage or won't allow VPN use.

Most people consider their own home or apartment a sacred bastion of privacy. I think many take that privacy for granted. These new connected devices can undermine that. I think a Samsung refrigerator that constantly scans your food is creepy. It's one thing for the fridge to hard sell you on buying more of the food you like. But what if Samsung is bribed by health insurance companies to share your food buying habits? I put nothing past intrusion efforts by companies or the state. The smart fridge is just one example. Once self driving cars are sold to the public on a widespread basis driving the old fashioned way by hand may cost drivers extra on their car insurance. There's no doubt these cars of the future will be constantly connected to networks, reporting all kinds of data while they are operating.

Concerns such as mine might seem like paranoia in the context of our relatively "free" society. Free societies have caved into dystopia before.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 02-24-2018, 10:09 PM:

So, just to tap on this one more time...

Buying two of these things, assuming you could get them to work in unison, would only give you dual-mono... not stereo.

... unless there's a way to sync up the units and assign one left and the other right?

Didn't think you could do that.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-25-2018, 12:37 AM:

Apple HomePod has sufficient speakers to render a stereo image and uses active room correction.

Amazon Echo and Echo Plus have stereo speakers.
Amazon Echo Dot 1st Gen does have stereo speakers, but the current generation only has mono. It has a stereo AUX though.

Google Home Mini: Only mono
Google Home: Only mono
Google Home Max: Stereo

Google currently is working on a feature called "Speaker Pairs", which lets you combine multiple speakers over Bluetooth (not only Google Home speakers) to create a stereo field. It also supports room equalization. The feature is still pretty much in beta though.

As far as I know, neither Amazon, nor Apple currently support combining multiple speakers to create a "virtual stereo" system, at least not without third party tools. Since all those speakers are essentially Bluetooth speakers, you could possibly put them into a "Virtual Speaker" pair on an Android device that supports the feature already though.

quote: Bobby Henderson
Concerns such as mine might seem like paranoia in the context of our relatively "free" society. Free societies have caved into dystopia before.

A little "paranoia" regarding stuff like this isn't all that bad. We easily forget what our forefathers had to endure to get us the little freedoms we now enjoy and which we're collectively giving away so easily, in return for a little fake security and some fake comfort.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-25-2018, 04:42 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Our phones and other connected devices can literally track where we go, even if the GPS feature is not running.

I can't help wondering if this is at least in part behind the trend of sealing batteries into smartphones and tablets, and making it impossible to remove them temporarily. Back in the days of Blackberries and Nokias, if you were paranoid about that sort of thing, you could remove the battery in a few seconds. Not so with a modern Apple or Samsung smartphone. I'm sure that even if you have your phone switched totally off as far as the GUI is concerned, a lot of stuff continues to run in the background.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-25-2018, 04:43 PM:

Apple did already announce both stereo and multiroom operation modes for the coming software updates. They would be stupid to not offer these modes, then being able to sell multiple devices per user.

My rather cheap Sony BT speaker supports SyncStereo over Bluetooth. The sender doesn't even need to know about that mode.

For the homepod with it's advanced 360 degree acoustic modelling and beam forming technology, adding stereo is not as simple as adding a second speaker and feeding it a signal.

- Carsten

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 03-07-2018, 03:01 PM:

Amazon admits Alexa is creepily laughing at people

quote:
Over the past few days, users with Alexa-enabled devices have reported hearing strange, unprompted laughter. Amazon responded to the creepiness in a statement to The Verge, saying, “We’re aware of this and working to fix it.”

As noted in media reports and a trending Twitter moment, Alexa laughs without being prompted to wake. People on Twitter and Reddit reported that they thought it was an actual person laughing near them, which can be scary when you’re home alone. Many responded to the cackling sounds by unplugging their Alexa-enabled devices.

Twitter user @CaptHandlebar was one of the first to report experiencing this back on February 22nd:

So Alexa decided to laugh randomly while I was in the kitchen. Freaked @SnootyJuicer and I out. I thought a kid was laughing behind me. pic.twitter.com/6dblzkiQHp
— CaptHandlebar (@CaptHandlebar) February 23, 2018

Since then, different people have noted hearing the laughter. It’s sometimes unprompted or appears as a bizarre response to requests to turn off the lights.

Lying in bed about to fall asleep when Alexa on my Amazon Echo Dot lets out a very loud and creepy laugh... there’s a good chance I get murdered tonight.
— Gavin Hightower (@GavinHightower) February 26, 2018

Many have related the laughter back to a moment in 2001: A Space Odyssey when HAL 9000 turns evil and says, “I’m sorry Dave, I’m afraid I can’t do that.” Maybe it’s a sign that having smart devices in our homes is another step toward a creepy, dystopian future where robot overlords rule. When does that Terminator sequel come out again?

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 03-08-2018, 11:19 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
But what if Samsung is bribed by health insurance companies to share your food buying habits?

This is why I don't use membership cards at drug stores and supermarkets. At supermarkets, I ask them to use their card and they aways do. Of course when I occasionally use a debit card (where the card itself or via Apple Pay), I suppose they know what I'm buying anyway.

I really think this push to make all appliances "smart" is ridiculous. I attended a SMPTE meeting last week where they reviewed CES and the speaker said the appliance manufacturers are pushing the notion that the refrigerator should be the center of the connected home. I don't buy the notion that most people would want their fridge to automatically order food for them when they're running out, especially fresh food.

Back in the 70's when I was a recording engineer and producer, I had to produce a radio spot for "the world's first talking refrigerator". Basically, it was just a cassette recorder mounted in the door, the idea being you could leave messages like "put the meatloaf in the oven at 375 and bake for 20 minutes" and "don't eat the pie". That didn't work either.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 03-09-2018, 12:07 AM:

I guess we all have our own personal "lines that shall not be crossed."

I wouldn't want an always-on microphone in my living room, but I pay for almost everything that I buy using one of two credit cards. Using the cards actually makes me money, since I get a cash rebate every year of a percentage of the amount spent on the card. If I paid cash I would still be paying full price but wouldn't get that rebate.

I buy 99% of my groceries at the local Coop store where I have a membership number and I get a percentage of what I spend there back each year as well. And I go to Costco four or five times a year, and get a cash rebate from them as well.

Ultimately, I guess that very nearly everything that I buy is on record somewhere.

That doesn't bother me, but an always-on microphone does.

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 03-09-2018, 11:28 AM:

Our family ran supermarkets for generations. The big boys have been dreaming of "direct to home" delivery for decades, but nobody's ever cracked the nut....mainly due to the razor-thin (to negative) margins in retail grocery. The customer just doesn't want to spend one nickel more so long as anyone with a large box building is willing to schlep out skids of product and beat you on price. So you never know, but.....

The thing is, the concept isn't new at all. Even in the 80's and 90's we still took many orders by phone (or fax!), shopped it and delivered it at NO CHARGE. Can't get a better deal than that (and you WON'T ever see a business entirely operated in this way be as careful as we were in selecting the best produce or meat in the counter). And there will always be someone to beat you on price.

I think people are going to stick with doing their own food shopping for quite some time, though you'll see things like cashiers and check-out lanes disappear.

(And no damn way we're putting one of these "personal assistants" in our house!)

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-15-2018, 07:35 PM:

I think there are some aspects of certain food that make you want to see (and maybe touch) it before you buy. I much prefer to find and buy technical items on the net so that I can look up technical parameters, sizes, colors, etc.. But e.g. fresh food can not be selected by such parameters. It's a sensual thing, and you want to see it before you buy. Of course, non-fresh food, brand stuff, etc., is usually safe going. No trouble to order e.g. a bottle of Heinz - you know what you get. That's why brands will become even more important with online food ordering.

- Carsten

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 03-16-2018, 09:20 AM:

quote: Dave Bird
though you'll see things like cashiers and check-out lanes disappear.

I don't know about other places, but here they went through a lot of trouble installing self checkout lanes and now they are gone, or just down to one per store. They may save money when everything goes smoothly, but, like driverless cars, you still have to have someone live for when things go wrong. And things always go wrong.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 05-24-2018, 07:51 PM:

[URL=https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/woman-says-her-amazon-devicefujitsu ar-dl10-recorded-private-conversation-sent-it-out-to-random-contact/755507974]Woman says her Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact[/URL]

quote:
A Portland family contacted Amazon to investigate after they say a private conversation in their home was recorded by Amazon's Alexa -- the voice-controlled smart speaker -- and that the recorded audio was sent to the phone of a random person in Seattle, who was in the family’s contact list.

"My husband and I would joke and say I'd bet these devices are listening to what we're saying," said Danielle, who did not want us to use her last name.

Every room in her family home was wired with the Amazon devices to control her home's heat, lights and security system.

But Danielle said two weeks ago their love for Alexa changed with an alarming phone call. "The person on the other line said, 'unplug your Alexa devices right now,'" she said. "'You're being hacked.'"

That person was one of her husband's employees, calling from Seattle.

"We unplugged all of them and he proceeded to tell us that he had received audio files of recordings from inside our house," she said. "At first, my husband was, like, 'no you didn't!' And the (recipient of the message) said 'You sat there talking about hardwood floors.' And we said, 'oh gosh, you really did hear us.'"

Danielle listened to the conversation when it was sent back to her, and she couldn't believe someone 176 miles away heard it too.

"I felt invaded," she said. "A total privacy invasion. Immediately I said, 'I'm never plugging that device in again, because I can't trust it.'"

Danielle says she unplugged all the devices, and she repeatedly called Amazon. She says an Alexa engineer investigated.

"They said 'our engineers went through your logs, and they saw exactly what you told us, they saw exactly what you said happened, and we're sorry.' He apologized like 15 times in a matter of 30 minutes and he said we really appreciate you bringing this to our attention, this is something we need to fix!"

But Danielle says the engineer did not provide specifics about why it happened, or if it's a widespread issue.

"He told us that the device just guessed what we were saying," she said. Danielle said the device did not audibly advise her it was preparing to send the recording, something it’s programmed to do.

When KIRO 7 asked Amazon questions, they sent this response:

“Amazon takes privacy very seriously. We investigated what happened and determined this was an extremely rare occurrence. We are taking steps to avoid this from happening in the future."

Amazon offered to “de-provision” Danielle’s Alexa communications so she could keep using its Smart Home Features. But Danielle is hoping Amazon gives her a refund for her devices, which she said their representatives have been unwilling to do. She says she’s curious to find out if anyone else has experienced the same issue.

"A husband and wife in the privacy of their home have conversations that they're not expecting to be sent to someone (in) their address book," she said.