Help with the path of our sound

[Tj Hopland]

I'm sure Bruce will be along soon to answer if anyone else has used Jnior with the Ovation. I have but it was a bit of an odd situation and I no longer remember all the details. Unless its been added recently there are no built in libraries in the Jnior but its easy to build your own. I'm not looking at the manual but I don't recall the Ovations command sets to be complicated. I think they were plain text which is really nice compared to some stuff where you have to do things like HEX and mess with checksums.

Once things calm down on your end perhaps start a new thread probably in the digital section related to the/your Jnior noting the DMX option in the title to set it apart from other threads since that is a less common feature? Bruce and some of us other Jnior users can likely at least help you get a plan together, if not a full detailed guide.

I know I'm curious how you are using the DMX functions specifically, or are you not using them at this time, just thought it could be a handy option to have? When I had considered it I could not make it work due to likely a combination of how Integ implemented it and how the specific fixtures my customer either had or wanted to use worked. They did 'connect' and do stuff it just wasn't quite the stuff the venue really wanted. The gang at Integ was willing to help but that aspect of the project kinda fizzled out and never went anywhere.

Starting a thread on Jnior stuff or at least contacting Bruce and his team directly goes for anyone. There is a lot of people with Jniors sitting just being a dumb relay box when they could do a lot more. If you are just an employee for a big chain not much you can do about that other than talk to who ever your supervisor is but if you are the owner or tech director.... Just ask maybe even a 300 series can do what you want. Bruce and his team know their devices past and present, what they don't know as well is how people are or wish they could use them.


And if anyone is curious how or why I am fuzzy on the details of the Jnior Ovation install I was involved in.....

It wasn't a site I normally took care of. I believe they had a NOC and some sort of service contract on some of the booth equipment which wasn't through me. It was much like how this thread started where the processor replacement process had got pretty far before someone realized the existing processor was using legacy contact closures which I don't think anyone including Ovation supports anymore. This site had an ad program that required the use of the non sync so leaving the CP on digital wasn't an option like it would be if everything came from the server. The rest of the system didn't easily support network control and there were unanswered questions as to who was allowed to 'touch' which parts of the system and who would then be responsible if / after they were messed with.

My solution to the issue was stick a Jnior in the sound rack running the cinema app. I had it 'read' the legacy contact closures via the input terminals and then fire macros. In this case the macro was a single command to either hit NS or Dig. Way overkill for just those 2 functions and maybe there would be cheaper ways to do it but like this thread it had to be fast and I knew it would do it and be reliable AND not open up the who's responsible can of worms. I did kinda look at some random boxes online or an Arduino sort of thing but time is money so trying some poorly documented stuff or trying to write some custom code and coming up with an enclosure the time is going to add up and be unusual for the next guy that has to deal with it. A Jnior is in the $500 ballpark and at least known of by our industry.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Extron's S/PDIF outputs are, typically, for 2-channel sources to provide a de-embedding. Since, as I recall, I was talking about the 4x2 when you were on the hunt, and it does not have a S/PDIF output, I don't know which one you have.

Note, taking the CP650's outputs and doing a passive mix down to 2-channels does not create an Lt/Rt mix again so I would presume that the surrounds are completely lost but L/C/R should get back to something resembling their old selves. If you are feeling really hacky, you could flip down the CP650's cover on the front and pick up the Lt/Rt mix there.

image.png

There wouldn't be any noise reduction there but you'd have the 4 channels matrix encoded.

Using the normal CP650 outputs, you could use an external mixer to also re-recreate the Lt/Rt mix by summing Ls/Rs and then mixing it back into L/R by inverting the signal going to Right.

But you might leave well enough alone to get through the opening event (tonight).

I think you'll not regret you decision to switch to the OV2. As for tuning it, one of its hallmarks (in fact, one of its biggest selling points) is that it tunes itself and does so at a level well beyond what a CP950 can do.

After you have lived with it for a month or two, let us know what you think. I don't think you'll have a problem off-loading the CP950. It is perfectly suitable to replace the 10s of thousands of CP750s that are dropping right now (suitable once one has the adapter boards/cables because Dolby didn't match the inputs/outputs...why would they?).

I think if we had known dropping to lower channel mix was being considered we might have been pitching other ideas like those out there sooner for sure.

Yeah what is the extron 4x4 model you have Brian? Excellent resource that SSP200 is there Steve!

Steve, how would you integrate something like that in Brian's situation? Would you treat it as an external digital processor feeding the 650? Add a DMA8Plus? Or more traditionally some kind of audio switch so it could share the 8 analog inputs on the Ovation2 with the CP650? Sharing the 8 analog inputs is something he might have to solve if he tools up for mag 70mm prints too perhaps unless providing it further back in the processing chain makes more sense.

AJA also has a SDI to AES disembedder... if one was trying to stay in the digital domain, but it is just a disembedder, not a decoder... so the Dolby/DTS decoding would have to take place elsewhere.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...annel_aes.html

Being a mixed use venue like mine. I think my initial goals would be the ability to get video and stereo audio from any SDI or HDMI source from the common locations in the venue to both the Live PA or the Cinema System. From within the booth itself it would be nice to be able to get a 5.1 or 7.1 working via an HDMI source, SPDIF probably fine initially, for the occasions when asked to play a feature off a laptop. Note we don't even have that booth solution fully integrated yet here, but the AP20 makes it pretty easy, just a matter of signal path and sources. For Brian his HDMI Matrix or some splitters may be needed to separately feed video to the projector/monitoring and audio to the processor.

I don't think Brian said which IMS is installed in his Christie 4435, but there is a chance some of the HDMI and audio handling could be done there as well and back routed to the Ovation2 on the already existing DCI audio path?

[Bruce Cloutier]

I know that there is a lot of flexibility with adapters and all that, but is there any standard/recommended channel pair assignments when running AES through RJ-45 connectors? I am just curious as it wouldn't seem to matter in an A/B switch.

[Ryan Gallagher]

I know that there is a lot of flexibility with adapters and all that, but is there any standard/recommended channel pair assignments when running AES through RJ-45 connectors? I am just curious as it wouldn't seem to matter in an A/B switch.

From what I am reading, most AES/EBU pinouts on RJ45 just use the normal T568B "straight-thru" termination (but want the shielded cables), at least when dealing with patch cables. Hard to be sure if there are any variations by manufacturer... all 8 conductors are used, so the real trick is when you have to break it out to something else, that is when you need the manufacturer information about which signal is on which wire intended for which pin.

Aside, I checked our setup finally cause had an evening in the booth. Our 650 was upgraded with the CAT778 card and is sending it's digital output over RJ45 to 9-16 on our AP20, similar to one of the "easiest" advised solutions early on in the thread, and still relevant perhaps even with an Ovation2. 1-8 digital inputs are provided by the DCI server... but we don't have complicating factors like making actual use of HI/VI currently. We still have our 790Z card remanded in a box on the shelf from 2016.

Boston Light & Sound was our DCI installer/integrator, so I am guessing they provided the CAT778 card at the time for the integration.

[Bruce Cloutier]

I was just looking at an A/B AES switch design and was wondering how fancy I should try to get? Simplest switches between two pairs of RJ45 jacks. You either get A 1-2 or B 1-2 to the output. But I could let you switch the between A-1 and B-1 for OUT-1 and A-2 and B-2 for OUT-2 separately. It looks like there are a couple of standards as to the use of the pairs per cable. I think trying to switch sets of pairs is too much.

PRELIM-AES-SW.png
This is an expansion module for the JNIOR of course. I was just roughing out the layout. Having trouble finding RJ45 that overhang enough to be flush with the outside of the enclosure. Connectors and PCB arrangement is about the hardest part of this stuff.

[Tj Hopland]

Bruce, while you are looking at components for this project how much would it cost to do a A to D stage? I'm assuming those come on chips and give an example of what you need to support it. An 8 channel analog in would really be the ticket for projects like this. I'm sure would add quite a bit of cost but I'm thinking we are all curious just how much that would be.

If there was room on one side of the board with the other chips on there a DB25 on one side for the analog would be perfect then the other side as shown with the RJ's in an RJ's out. This box would just go 'inline' between your existing server and CP and in normal mode would just pass the AES through the RJ's. You could then put it in analog mode and it would break the RJ in and patch in the converted analog signal.

Let us know what something like that could maybe cost. Right now we are looking at Ryan's Aja solution which new is $1200 and that's without the AES switch or connectors we use. If it would be a $3000 box I don't think you would get many takers but if it was $500 I could see lots of interest. $1000 could still be a reasonable option since as we proved with this thread there really isn't a current solution, most depend on finding used stuff., If it looks possible we should start a new thread and talk details and explore other features that may or may not be practical to implement without making it a $3000 box. I can think of a ton of features I would want to explore.

How about Harold? Maybe he would have some tips?

[Bruce Cloutier]

Tj, you might notice that we offer analog expansion modules. One does 4-20 current loop (4 channels in and 2 channels out) and one does +/- 10v (again 4 in and 2 out). Some of you use the 10v module to set reference signals for house light dimming. So there are already A/D and D/A capabilities in the processor series we use on those (TI MSP430). The issue with audio is in making the conversions fast and in having the proper filtering with that. We've not done audio in modules before since the link back to the JNIOR cannot handle it. But that is not what you are asking about. So this is interesting.

This RJ45 A/B switch wouldn't be $200. It would require the JNIOR and most of you have them already.

There are 8 channels on the DB25? What's the pinout? I can look that up of course.

I would have to see what flavor of MSP430 can do 8 channels effectively with the right number of bits. That would increase the cost a little. If I need to increase the processor clock rate that would add cost too. Analog filtering on the way into that adds to the cost significantly (opamps, etc. and there are those in those analog modules). All doable at some level.

The problem comes in creating AES output from the analog source as an option to that from the A and B RJ45 inputs. To do this I would need to run all of the inputs through the processor. I wouldn't have to reclock the AES sources I don't think. But anyway, it changes the game significantly along the lines of simplicity and cost.

Maybe do this A/B RJ45 switch as one module and create a second module taking DB25 analog in with RJ45 AES out. But that you already have I assume someplace? Is that the $500+ stuff?

[Tj Hopland]

The analog audio A to D is sort of a missing piece of this puzzle as is the AES switch. Ryan fond those AJA boxes that still appear to be in production but are only 4 channels each and $600 each and don't use 'our' pinouts or connectors so to buy that new you would be at least $1500 and as far as we can tell that's about the least expensive option.

I totally believe that it is complicated and maybe that's why it doesn't exist in addition to fairly low demand but I thought it was worth asking. If it was that 'easy' you would think Dolby would have thrown it in the 950 or didn't they because of some reason like no room for the connector on the back? Harold where are you? I'm sure the question of the analog input came up in the JSD60 design that he worked on. Maybe he can tell us why at least in the context of what it cost to implement 10 ish years ago its just not practical to do today especially given the limited market.

[Bruce Cloutier]

I would love to develop some audio expertise relating to the A/D and D/A aspects. I understand the how. It is just that I wouldn't, through some inexperience, want to add some artifact to the sound by being sloppy in anti-aliasing, filtering, sampling or inadvertent signal processing (delays). As it is with the relays there are still concerns with altering the phase between channels or adding cross-talk. I still very much appreciate vinyl records and the analog end-to-end. So I start thinking about verifying with pure signal sources for testing, spectrum analyzers, and ultimately a room with a precisely located chair. In other words I don't want to make a mistake. You don't deserve that.

There is a thing too that when you start out simple and keep adding one new feature and then another. Eventually, for cost or other reasons, you get cheap or sloppy and devalue the whole thing.

With Dolby and other large concerns, $50 worth of parts ends up having to sell for $1,200 to cover their massive overhead, generate a reasonable net profit and keep investors from having canniptions. Me, I am happy supplying that for $165 and hoping that I can move a lot of them. Still it is not a disaster to build a small quantity and sit on them. Nobody is on my back about inventory holding costs. None of that is debt financed.

Simple and logical features are easily overlooked in generating product specifications in large organization. Things quickly get too far along before someone can make the case for the addition.

[Bruce Cloutier]

Should this be 8-channel or 16? The DB-25 (if I were to convert it) yields 8 channels which is handled by one RJ45. I could go to single RJ45 (instead of dual). How about sync? Do you use external clock? And what say ye as to bit depths and clock rates?

[Ryan Gallagher]

Should this be 8-channel or 16? The DB-25 (if I were to convert it) yields 8 channels which is handled by one RJ45. I could go to single RJ45 (instead of dual). How about sync? Do you use external clock? And what say ye as to bit depths and clock rates?

Most of that is out of my area of expertise too. If we were speaking of a A2D feature, I would think 8 channels is really where the predominant need is for single screen booths (a single analog audio processor being integrated into a digital AES workflow with a mostly digital head processor). But there are probably some customers that might have more than one 8 channel analog system they'd like to pipe into it, especially if it could switch to all digital via the other features for DCI.

I like starting with the simple Dual RJ45 A/B (or A/B/C) switch expansion module, enough for 16 channels of AES/EBU... The AJA A2D converters on the used market are too cheap to really rule those out a solution for folks with more elaborate analog needs, for now they or other ADs can be a piece of a solution, until if and when Integ wants to tackle that side of the problem?

[Bruce Cloutier]

Yeah to go to a 3-to-one switch I would have to use some form of solid state switching and that limits the signal types. Otherwise that would be too many relays. The relays keep it entirely general which is worth something. I am contemplating all of this.

I think starting with the simplest thing only makes sense. Make something that somebody can use and build on that.

[Tj Hopland]

The AES digital for us would be on RJ45's, all the servers now come with RJ's and processors are moving that way too if not already there. If there is the odd DB25 digital need that's easily handled with an adapter, I think they even come with most of the servers still. The servers have 2 RJ's so 8 pairs/16 channels. We are rarely using more than 10 of those but the ones we use are often split between the two in a less than ideal way so sticking with all 16 straight through is going to be the most flexible especially since this will sort of be an add on to an existing system.

If the A to D becomes an option then maybe a survey should be taken how to route that. Out of the servers the default is you get everything you need for 5.1 including the hearing impaired and visual narration tracks in that 1-8 jack. Only thing in the 9-16 for most people is the rear surrounds for 7.1. Its possible to do routing in the servers as well as some of the processors and you can pretty easily make a custom cable so there are lots of ways and reasons you could end up moving things around. If the analog conversion was happening onboard this switch box I think I would proabbly keep the default mapping so the rear surrounds would be on that 9-16 jack. if the A to D is a stand along box then maybe worth a discussion to see the pros and cons of 2 jacks.

The DB25 only comes in for the analog signal and that is balanced 8 channels. And again if it looks like this could happen maybe a survey to see if it should be THX or Tascam pin out. My initial through would be Tascam since that is now becoming a standard in cinema but on the other hand the likely application for this box is with a film processor so going THX would let you use a straight cable.

[Bruce Cloutier]

RJ45 AB LABEL.pngI am working with this A/B switch. I thought I would toss this first attempt at a labeling out to you for comment. It makes sense the way it is, right? I mean it ain't rocket science. Feel free to chime in. I am not paying professional graphic artists for this stuff. How about the colors? Who cares right?

This uses relays to switch all 16 conductors. So it doesn't matter what signals are present or how they are assigned to pins. Even the direction won't matter. So either A or B is connected to C. This will use latching relays. Once you route B to C the JNIOR can lose power or reboot and it will not affect the connection. So it will be stable even when the automation is offline. That also won't chew up power keeping relays energized in one state verses the default.

I'll let you in on a couple of ongoing debates that we have. Nobody is attached to the "Sensor Port" naming for the connection to the JNIOR. Sometimes we call it the "Expansion Bus" but that is too long for labels. Since I am sure none of you will be confused by this I thought that we would put that issue to bed and just label the RJ12 connections "JNIOR". It's okay, right? Labeling that port is more of a problem on the JNIOR itself.

The other isn't really a debate. We have been migrating away from the original corporate domain name (integpg.com) in favor of the product domain (jnior.com). Same destination (at least for now). I get it, no big deal.

I need to review the circuits and get the Bill of Materials together. But once that is done I can schedule a build. Believe or not, of it all the labels take the longest. Those people are inexplicably slow.

I should be able to also make a DB25 version of this. That would require a few more relays to switch all of the conductors and keep it independent of the signal wiring. From the discussion, I assume that a couple of you might find that useful. Am I correct? Which gender? Where?

[Tj Hopland]

The way the AES RJ's are labeled on cinema stuff is 1-8 and 9-16. Even if someone wants to use this for something else that still works because it could also just refer to pin numbers and at least in my head also tells you that they are being switched in groups of 16. So maybe A(or B) then below the 1-8 9-16. Looks like there is room in your colored pad areas to do that second like of text.

Is the C instead of OUT because since its relays C could be the IN and A or B would be the outs? I guess that works given that it could work either direction only confusion could be that all 3 are not somehow being magically converted to sensor data but you got the A/B in the graphic name.

What's anyone else's theory on calling it a switch? Anything with RJ45's called a switch makes people think its got to be Ethernet, same with router. Would you add passive before switch? Selector maybe?

I presume other than connectors being a little odd this could select analog audio too? I suppose the DB25 version could more readily lend itself to that? You could just buy some tascam cables if you were not already dealing with DB25?

As for genders of the DB25 if the typical use was going to be 2 sources into one input the 2 inputs on the box should be female and the out would be male. The analog (and digital for that matter) ins on the back of a cinema processor would be females so you would just use M-F cables for interconnects. I'm not sure in pro audio / Tascam world is the DB25 on the cable end always male? If so maybe the box has all female on it? These days you are not finding DB25's at the corner store of any flavor so you are probably ordering one and where ever has one these days probably has all 3 options M-M M-F F-F so you got Integ overnighting your module and amazon getting you what ever flavor cables you need?

I can't currently think of a use I would have for either box but its fun to think about and who knows maybe tomorrow someone will ask.

I really have no opinion on the sensor port thing, it doesn't bother me calling it a sensor port. RJ12 or Jnior better? I dunno seems like people that can't deal with sensor port could be just as confused by RJ or Jnior.