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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Dolby Digital Readers. (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: Dolby Digital Readers.
RICK HAMILTON
Film Handler

Posts: 28

Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 08-14-1999 07:35 AM      Profile for RICK HAMILTON   Email RICK HAMILTON   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe- I just found this site the other night and this was the most recent topic. I thought I could save Stephen Jones 1 from what would be in my opinion "messing up" his optical alignment. I just think he should be aware of the consequences of trying to adjust the optics. As far as bashing everyone else, I don't have time, and it probably isn't necessary. I think this is a good site that offers some great tips. From a technicians point of view though, I don't like the fact that some projectionists may now try to "fix" some problems that may be too technical for them. Sorry if I offended you!

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-14-1999 09:24 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know very much about aligning a Dolby Digital reader (I've read the CP-500 manual, but that's the extent of my knowledge), but the printed description doesn't make it sound any harder than a standard A-chain alignment. In some ways, it sounds like a simpler procedure.

Even a standard A-chain optical soundhead alignment isn't that difficult, particularly if you have a scope and a full set of test films. It's really just a "cookbook"-type procedure that can be done by anyone with a little technical knowledge and some patience. Of course, it helps tremendously if you have seen someone else do it beforehand.

It's even possible to do a fairly good job "by ear," using only the Dolby Tone/pink noise loop (been there, done that). It's really amazing what can be done with a Dolby manual, a bit of patience, a desire to do things "right," and the knowledge that management will never pay for a full set of test loops or a tech to visit the theatre.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-14-1999 10:36 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think there is an obligation that lies with the reader to decide whether to follow a post's advice or not. This is a public forum so all can read it not just a hierachy based on
engineer
technician
projectionist
operator
popcorn button pusher on saturday mornings
I just feel that all information exchange is important how it used is strictly the end users obligation
Maybe Brad will have to post a disclaimer to that effect

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-14-1999 11:20 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon's point is a good one--maybe Brad should have a universal disclaimer so that we all don't have to have to worry about getting sued if we don't type "do this at your own risk" at the end of every post.

Of course, no one should be making adjustments to sensitive equipment without some knowledge of what he is doing and the consequences of misadjustment. If something works most of the time and is difficult to adjust, it's probably not worth the risk of making it worse. On the other hand, if it just plain doesn't work, then there's not much to be lost by experimenting.

Some of this also depends on the attitude of theatre management. Some places will call a tech to replace an exciter bulb. Others (like a certain place where I used to work) haven't had a tech visit in years. Obviously these are two extremes, but if you have someone who comes to your theatre every month or six months or year to align everything, it's worth being present to watch what he does and ask questions. Manuals are helpful, but are no substitute for seeing someone who's done the same thing dozens of times before.

Along the same lines, I recommend that all new projectionists try to seek out some "old timers" who have been in the business for decades. If you're lucky, you'll find one or two who are friendly and will enjoy having someone to talk to; learn everything you can about film care and projector maintenance from these people. In many cases the long-time union guys are the last of a dying breed of career projectionists, and it is worth learning from them before they are all extinct. Also, visit lots of different types of theatres; if you work in a platter house, visit a reel-to-reel booth; if you run a manual reel-to-reel setup, visit a gigaplex with platters and automation. Make an effort to understand how film is handled in different environments and what contributes to film wear and damage (and how to avoid it).

This forum is a great place to exchange information and ideas, both highly technical and general gripes about Technicolor reels and whatnot. Brad has done a nice job of gently moderating things (thanks!) without being overly intrusive.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-14-1999 01:32 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Regarding Osiliscopes The minimum for aligning the SRD CCD is a 20Meg Dual Trace Scope
I use a Leader 60meg dual trace miniscope
The LCD Digital scopes just don't cutit

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 08-14-1999 11:53 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
A disclaimer? Hmmmm...what a good idea.

Thanks guys!

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Bobby Parry
Film Handler

Posts: 3
From: New Orleans, LA USA
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 08-15-1999 02:30 AM      Profile for Bobby Parry   Email Bobby Parry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've experienced the best performance from the Dolby Cat 701 Readers. I've seen errors as low as 1's on these. The best I've seen from a basement reader was a 2 on a Century with a Component Engineering reader. For the best, most consistant performance the Dolby Cat 701 is the only way to go.


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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 08-15-1999 02:36 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I certainly agree that the Cat. 701 is the most consistant good performer and definitely the way to go. However I have seen error rates as low as 0 (not 0 and a half) on my Christie basement readers. They hit 0 and hold it. It depends on the movie. I have seen at least 5 of our readers do this. Unfortunately the consistancy is not as good as the 701

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 08-15-1999 11:31 AM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Back to self-aligment of the sound for a minute:

When I got my Holmes, the seller shipped the lamps, lenses, and the sound slit lens in a separate container to "protect" them.

Having messed up my share of 16mm junkers that I was experimenting with, I was not looking forward to a sound alignment.

I found a reel of film that had alot of music on it, and went to it. Within 2 runs of the 20 minute reel, I had it pretty close to what I thought was clear, and true.

A couple of months later, I found a few test loops on the net. I set it up using the headphones, and my meter (analog)

I was not even close with my initial set ups. What a difference! Now, if my oscilliscope would only work again (very old dual trace B and K with no visible model #--case is missing--got hit by lightning while I was working on a TV--had no idea the storm was coming.) I could really tweak the alignment. For stereo, it s going to have to be perfect.

Should I try to install the stereo cell that Brad sent me less than 1/8" from the running film? This will require some "engineering" on my part.

You people are great. I have learned alot here.

Bruce

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-15-1999 05:41 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bruce - interesting post. I certainly wasn't recommending aligning a soundhead by ear...I just said that it can be done, although you are definitely correct that a mono system is far less finicky than a Dolby system. Also, when you do the alignment you need to be sure that you are using a good print (i.e. not old, shrunken, cheaply printed trailers) with a well recorded track.

In my case, with a two machine booth, one projector's soundhead was aligned almost perfectly, which helped things tremendously when I had to replace the solar cell on the other projector. What I did was run the Dolby tone loop in projector #1 (good) and set the levels on the preamp card in the processor (CP-50). Then, I connected the second projector to the #1 input on the processor, ran the Dolby loop on that machine, and physically adjusted the solar cell to match the levels of the channels as closely as possible (optics were OK). I then re-connected each projector to its proper input and set the levels on the preamp card for the #2 projector. It wasn't perfect, but it only took about ten minutes, and sounded OK (the matrix was fine, though there was a little dialogue leakage in the surround channel).

Good luck. Another way to set things up by ear is to get a good mono print and adjust the optics and solar cell position while monitoring the surround channel (this, again, assumes a Dolby system). When you hear no information in the surround channel, check the left and right channels. If everything is aligned properly, the matrix will decode the mono information and play everything through the center channel only.

I'd be interested in hearing others' suggestions for low-budget soundhead alignment. I certainly wouldn't recommend that anyone try this unless the optics and/or solar cell are so far out of alignment that the situation can't possibly be made worse, which, sadly, is the case in way too many theatres.

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Jason Burroughs
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Allen, TX
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-16-1999 12:58 AM      Profile for Jason Burroughs   Email Jason Burroughs   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This may be a little off subject, but to perform an A-Chain alignment on a Sony DCP-1000 is incredibly simple. No oscilliscope is used, all you need is the standard A-chain alignment test film. The on panel display is a little odd, but it seems to work quite well. Now if I can get my hands on some of the test films :-)


Jason Burroughs is a projectionist at the Loews Keystone Park in Dallas, TX

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Stephen Jones
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Geelong Victoria Australia
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-16-1999 01:50 AM      Profile for Stephen Jones   Email Stephen Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I posted this topic I really didnt expect this amount of discussion on the subject of Dolby Digital readers but thats what what a forum page is all about.I have used both type of readers and have found they both give good results I suppose it all comes down to personal preference. The discussion on who should fix or adjust what in the bio was also interesting. My 10cents worth is that if you dont Know what you are doing contact someone who dose. I have been projecting 35mm film in cinemas and drive-ins for 29 years and over that time have learnt a thing or two, mainly from watching techs and asking them every question I could think of. One of them told me "if aint broke dont fix it"and thats what I have done over the years, I also now how to effect emergency repairs to keep the show going till a tech can attend to the problem (eg reattach a cell if it is dislodged from the bracket)as for more advanced technical adjustments I allways ask the techs before I attempt anything and they allways advise me yes or no.As I have worked in theatres in the out back I have learned thing the hard way as well as you are miles away from any help and have to do things yourself this has given some very good experience over the years, but again I say if you are not sure contact someone who dose, also a lot of cinemas dont have the technical equipment that is needed to the job anyhow.

------------------

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Stephen Jones 1
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Tulsa, OK, USA
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 08-16-1999 04:34 AM      Profile for Stephen Jones 1   Author's Homepage   Email Stephen Jones 1   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry to get everyone in a tangle about my problem. I take the advice given to me as advice and not a "must do." I'm certainly not going to go messing around with anything that requires a oscilloscope to calibrate it. If I don't have the tools or the know how, I'm just gonna get someone else how does have the tools and the know how to do it for me and maybe show me how to do it. It's very hard to get any kind of technical training with projectors and Dolby systems when there's no one around to teach it except for a Technician that comes around maybe once a year. I just don't want my presenatation to be alright, I want it to be the best. Does anyone have input on where someone like me can get this type of training? I'd gladly go to a technical school, if I knew they were teaching me how I can perfect my presentations.

I think this page is great and I love that the well-experienced projectionist and technicians can share their thoughts with us "newbies." Thank you Joe and Rick. I know both of you are trying to help and I appreciate that.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-16-1999 01:27 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry the new Sony software eliminates the scope feature it wasn't all that accurate

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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 08-17-1999 12:59 AM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When you are alone in the booth and you know that the optical (or digital) reproduction isn't all it could be, there is a great temptation to try and see if you can improve the situation. If this temptation isn't there, you are in the wrong job.
Consider first, however, that the system once worked perfectly. Something has since changed. Taking the optical system as an example, (exciter-lamp, sound lens, latteral-guide adjustment and solar cell) think about what may have changed. In most projectors the sound lens is tightened down pretty well. It is not likely that it has shifted. Moving this lens can cause you an awful lot of grief. To properly align an optical sound lens requires a dual-trace scope, real-time analyzer, pink noise loop and two beers. (The beers are for consolation after you discover you have done a perfect A-chain alignment with the loop threaded with the emulsion on the wrong side).
Dolby puts out an excellent test film, the C.N. 251 "Jiffy". If you can convince your management to get you a copy of this film (please don't swipe it from your technician - he'll get even, believe me), it will show you more than you ever wanted to know about the quality of your sound system.

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