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Topic: Volume levels in theaters

Ari Nordström
Master Film Handler

Posts: 283
From: Göteborg, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 01-03-2005 01:41 AM

This is at least somewhat related... [Smile]

During festivals I've worked at, many film directors want to crank the sound up, often far beyond the comfortable dialogue level occuring at about 7.0. I've had shows where the volume was up at 9.0, without any good reason other than that the director was out on a personal vendetta of some kind.

Of course, I was the guy the audience blamed and I turned the volume down as soon as the director had left the auditorium...

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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-03-2005 01:55 AM

I've noticed that about older musicals, too. The music just blasts out higher in volume. It doesn't seem to be a stereo/mono cell thing, which is one of the few sound reproduction changes that I can reasonably compare.

I think it was Warner's that used to optimize recording & prints for different sound requirements by intermixing VA & VD. But MGM's also had musical numbers at a much higher level.

Classic rep titles with silver tracks & music with lots of complex high frequencies like violins, cymbal crashes & piano glissandi on red readers = gruesome crap. There was a piano gliss in "American in Paris" that sounded like a silverware drawer being thrown down on a concrete driveway. Bogart's lisp is splattery on red readers, too. Save your exciter lamps.

The "Bogart's lisp is splattery" is today's freebie.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 01-03-2005 05:32 AM

quote: William Hooper
Classic rep titles with silver tracks & music with lots of complex high frequencies like violins, cymbal crashes & piano glissandi on red readers = gruesome crap. There was a piano gliss in "American in Paris" that sounded like a silverware drawer being thrown down on a concrete driveway. Bogart's lisp is splattery on red readers, too. Save your exciter lamps.

That's likely sibilant distortion. The old prints had their analog soundtrack density adjusted to minimize cross-modulation distortion on tungsten ("white light") readers. Recent prints with new tracks will likely be optimized for red LED readers. Here is the procedure:

http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/support/h44/h44.pdf

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-03-2005 07:54 AM

For the sake of clarity, I will mention that I was referring to B&W prints being played on systems with white-light exciter lamps, though I have noticed the same issues with red LED readers.

This generally doesn't seem to be an issue with films made after about 1950, and there are also some 1930s and 1940s titles that sound fine.

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Robert John Jeromson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 264
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Registered: Jul 2004

posted 01-03-2005 05:01 PM

I believe this to be an issue of monitoring and regular balancing. We have certainly had our complaints about volume but we do shy away from altering our settings based on one or two patrons. We test screen everything we show and attempt wherever possible to test screen in the auditorium the film is opening in. This gives us an oppurtunity to set a volume level that is appropriate for the film. Of course films are reassessed when they move, there is a big difference in percieved level when a film goes from a 400+ auditorium to a 100 seater. Most of our presentations vary between 5.5 and 6.2 but I have attempted to impress on my staff that it is not just a matter of setting a level and then forgetting about it you have to physically find the time to sit in on portions of the presentations and critically assess the volume.

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Charlie Frisby
Film Handler

Posts: 58
From: Guymon, Ok USA, org. from DFW
Registered: Dec 2004

posted 01-03-2005 05:30 PM

RJJ is right, i am a little more anal. I usually make a run down stair at the first run of the day and check to make sure nothing has changed volume wise. And doubled up platters get their own special trip in between.

My view is, i love watching movies, and I know how bad the presentation can be, and i don't want to be that guy on the "You suck" thread because the volume was too low/high. So until there is a better way to monitor the volume better, Running down stairs and checking is the best formula for success [thumbsup]

-FRiSBY

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-03-2005 06:38 PM

Note the Motion Picture Academy's Samual Goldwyn theatre ripped out their red light readers and put back tungsten filiment ones to handle the conventional soundtracks they run.

This has now happened on several of our customers too where red-light with older tracks sounded anywhere from strident totally unlistenable (magenta Variable Density)

Steve

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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-04-2005 03:00 AM

quote: John Pytlak
Recent prints with new tracks will likely be optimized for red LED readers.

That's not a solution, that's a misdirection. It is a reference to a separate issue, & one that actually makes the problem worse. For a theatre which plays old titles, there'll be no telling what track is coming in, & if you've got the other reader, it's wrong. Not to beat again one of the many issues covered in the many cyan tracks threads, but it's one of those unresolved, undesired to resolve technical problems that the cyan track consortium had to refuse to address when pushing cyan tracks through.

For reference, it doesn't just apply to music, which does sound the worst. The sibilant sounds in English speech are [s], [S], [z], and [Z]), and affricates (including [ts], [tS], [dz], and [dZ]). Enjoy the splattery mess when folks speak with those sounds on older prints run on red readers.

"The Cyan Track Committee: We want rep houses to sound like crap!"

quote: Scott Norwood
For the sake of clarity, I will mention that I was referring to B&W prints being played on systems with white-light exciter lamps, though I have noticed the same issues with red LED readers.

I've noticed the volume disparity on color titles, too, of which I've run more. 1950 is not a good cutoff date, MGM musicals after 1950 do it also. It seems to be independent of processors, so I don't think it's related to any Dolby CP-xxxxxx methodology.

quote: Robert John Jeromson
I believe this to be an issue of monitoring and regular balancing.

Not in this case. Scott & I are referrring not to current product, but a dissimilarity to current volume levels regularly encountered in older, "classic" musical titles from the 30s, 40s, & 50s. When the dialog is at a "normal" level, even after a complete A chain & B chain, the musical numbers will blast out at a level that today would be a usual volume increase in the sound mix for explosions in an action movie.

quote: Steve Guttag
This has now happened on several of our customers too where red-light with older tracks sounded anywhere from strident totally unlistenable (magenta Variable Density)

An independent which runs lots of current release, plus festivals & rep product asked me what they should do now that cyan is expected on current release prints. They have average operators & operator turnover, so some scheme of switching readers for prints is out of the question. Stay IR & not be able to run cyan, or switch to red readers & have old prints sound awful? There's no good solution. The least rotten is red readers, & all the earlier prints not optimized for cyan will sound like crap.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-04-2005 06:34 AM

The BACP reader had a plug in LED head that doesn't require any great skill to change.

One head can be loaded with IR, the other with visible red and reset the Dolby-Level as necessary.

If you have a soundhead that can use their standard LED mount, then that might be a solution.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 01-04-2005 07:21 AM

It's almost that simple. (Remember there is a focus difference between the two. [Wink]

)

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-04-2005 06:11 PM

Yeah but you can either compromise or pick the one you really care about.

Steve

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 01-04-2005 11:21 PM

Wait now, did Guttag just say "compromise"???

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-05-2005 07:50 AM

Brad,

No. I said YOU may compromise.

Steve

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-05-2005 11:23 AM

I just posted this in the Home Brew thread, but it is more to the point here:

quote:
With all these good results being obtained from the home brew red LED light source, this really is the answer to the art house dilemma -- we must play a mix of old films as well as new cyan releases. Seems to me that if I have to choose between the sibilance distortion of shrill and splattering esses that you get when you play older prints that are "white light optimized" on red light readers, and the slightly better channel separation obtained by reverse scan readers, I will choose white light playback any time and to hell with a tad better channel separation. What good is great channel separation if the soundtrack sounds like someone scrapping their fingernails across a blackboard?

As stated above, switching back and forth between the two different types of pickups is out of the question. But being able to simply switch out a red light exciter to a white light exciter would be a workable solution.

The ultimate solution would be to get a reverse scan reader that can be excited by two different light sources, perhaps with dual LED array -- one that contains both red and white LEDs. This would be the best of both worlds -- correct illumination of cyan tracks and correct illumination for prints optimized for white light "excitation."

Is this possible? Perhaps the fiber-optics idea would work. Illuminate the soundtrack for a reverse scan system with fiberoptics instead of the light source itself. On the other end of the fibers you could easily switch from a red LED light source to a white LED light source. There wouldn't be any refocusing because the fibers that illuminate the track remain fixed. The only thing that might need some slight adjustment might be levels.

Or, stick with forward scan and simply swap out a white exciter for the red LED (home brew) array. Even better, instead of the white incandescent bulb, make two home brew arrays -- one with the high intensity red LEDs and one with high intensity white LEDs. If you have the luxury of a soundhead that has dual exciter holders or swapable holders, changing from white to red could be done by the even the most marginally competent operator.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 01-05-2005 01:39 PM

quote: Frank Angel
There wouldn't be any refocusing because the fibers that illuminate the track remain fixed. The only thing that might need some slight adjustment might be levels.

Slight refocusing may still be needed. Broad spectrum "white" light that includes infrared energy will likely focus differently than narrow spectrum red light due to chromatic aberration of the optics that focus the track on the cell. If you've ever used infrared film in your SLR Camera, you know what I mean:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f13/f13.jhtml

quote:
Focusing
Lenses do not focus infrared radiation in the same plane as visible radiation. Because infrared radiation is longer in wavelength than visible radiation, the focus point is further from the camera lens. Therefore, the lens must be moved slightly farther from the film to focus an infrared image. This focus difference is most critical when using filters to block all visible radiation from the film.

Most camera lenses have an auxiliary infrared focusing mark. Consult your camera manual for the appropriate use.

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