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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Best Methods for Cleaning a Projector (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: Best Methods for Cleaning a Projector
Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 10-29-1999 04:25 AM      Profile for Jim Ziegler   Email Jim Ziegler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul,

If you are using Filmguard, don't use Xekote. Apparently the filmguard acts as some sort of catalyst and causes the Xekote to screw with the dyes.. Brad can explain it better...

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-29-1999 04:55 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I have never liked XeKote to begin with and I much prefer to use "LPS cleaner/degreaser" (although alcohol works pretty well) should a liquid cleaner be needed for an extremely dirty projector. The trick with the LPS product is not to go spraying it into the projector, but to spray it onto a rag and wipe the projector clean. For those who have never used it, you will be amazed.

XeKote over time tends to turn prints green, even if only applied on the edges of the film or just the projector. It isn't immediate and takes some time to show up, but it always seems to happen. It is probably a moot point now anyway, as I've heard it is being discontinued (but, that's not confirmed).

We don't recommend using XeKote with FilmGuard, but for that matter NOTHING is recommended to use with FilmGuard. As has been stated by some of our loyal users, when using FilmGuard, you won't need anything else. The projectors stay clean. A quick wipe with a shop cloth is more than adequate, and done daily is overkill.

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Paul Konen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 981
From: Frisco, TX. (North of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-29-1999 11:08 AM      Profile for Paul Konen   Email Paul Konen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wasn't saying to use XeKote on a projector that has a filmguard print on it. (Its clean anyway so I bypass that step).

Brad, you sent me a message one time that XeKote was eating the base side and that was contributing to shredding. I asked that because the tech said NOT to XeKote between every show.

Also, our last request of XeKote was shipped with something called Formula 141 from (I can't remember) (Bear Industries??). It is in a clear bottle and evaporates quickly.

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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 10-29-1999 01:50 PM      Profile for Jim Ziegler   Email Jim Ziegler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
According to what corporate told us, shipping companies were demending haz mat fees to ship Xekote, so it was discontinued...

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-29-1999 03:04 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, yes one of the "to be" test theaters had this problem when using XeKote. I simply asked them to stop using it for one month to see what happened and the excessive problems went away for them. Then when they started to test FilmGuard, all shedding and static ceased. They had sent me some samples of XeKoted trailers and they were pretty bad. The colors had actually smeared off of the proper images in the film.

I also fill in occasionally at a theater with a XeKote happy operator and the prints are very "nasty", to be nice. Even the platter rollers have gooey, fuzzy XeKote residue all over them. That operator sprays the XeKote across the film.

To John Pytlak: if simple things like XeKote and projector oil are such a problem (and we all know they are) then why can't the film stocks be reformulated to accept such outside factors? (There are many booths that will always have projector oil leaks.) The triacetate stocks could take oil and XeKote and who knows what else without anything too severe happening as a result.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-29-1999 03:40 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I / We don't Xe-Kote during the day. Only at the end of the night. With FG we don't do it at all. (We mark which prints have been FG-ed on the marker board on the back of each proj.)

Without Xe-Kote (on the ones that DON'T use FG) the proj. doesn't seem to run right sometimes. We've never NOTICED a problem with it eating or discoloring prints but A) We nover thought to look. B) We're pretty stingy with it... We only use a Q-tip and put it ONLY on the film-bearing surfaces. (Gate Bands, Studio Guides and Int. Shoes)

Once we get into full-swing with FG, I don't expect we'll use Xe-Kote very much, if at all.

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Christopher Seo
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 530
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-29-1999 05:55 PM      Profile for Christopher Seo   Email Christopher Seo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anybody know what XeKote II is and whether it's an improvement over the original? That's what we have now. We also got that "Formula 141" as well, and it has the same ingredients as XeKote II. I have noticed some waxy crud on rollers left by prints lubricated with this stuff, but no other problems. And the XeKote does keep it from shedding.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-03-1999 11:39 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The chemicals that form the dyes in modern color films are known as "couplers". They are coated in the emulsion by dispersing them in an oil-like "coupler solvent". Even after processing, the dyes are somewhat soluble in certain oils and solvents, but are normally protected by a thin gelatin layer (SOC) coated on top of the emulsion.

If the protective top coating is scratched or abraded, oils and solvents can penetrate into the emulsion and may leach out some of the dye, or make it soluble enough to "migrate". Excessive radiant energy can aggravate this type of damage.

A classic case of this problem occured many years ago on color prints being used in southeast Asia. Projectionists routinely used oil to lubricate prints, and the dirty conditions in some of the theatres (sometimes just a projector on the back of a truck) caused dirt to be trapped on the oily film surface, abrading the film. The prints developed green-colored spots, where the oil had penetrated through the abraded protective layer and leached out the magenta dye. Oil wiped off the surface of the film was colored pink, from the magenta dye it leached out of the film.

Care should be used in choosing any material used to clean or lubricate film. Some of the "time tested" film cleaners and lubricants are no longer available, because their forumulas contained solvents (e.g., Freon or 1,1,1-trichloroethane) that are believed to harm the ozone layer. Other "film-safe" solvents have health or flammability concerns.

There are many proprietary film cleaners and film treatments on the market. Although Kodak cannot test all of them, it has published many technical papers on the subject of film cleaning and lubrication. One paper that evaluated many of the chemicals that might be considered for film cleaning and lubrication is "Practical Film Cleaning for Safety and Effectiveness" by D.W. Fassett, F.J. Kolb, and E.M. Weigel, published in the September 1958 SMPTE Journal. Another is "Lubrication of 35-mm Release Prints for Extended Projection Life" by Edward Mino and Rodney S. Perry, in the October 1983 SMPTE Journal.

Film manufacturers strive to make prints more "robust" and resistant to all forms of damage. Generally, a small amount of oil that accidently gets on a print doesn't cause a problem with the dyes. But a sticky oily surface may hold dirt particles or cause the film to stick together. Oil blotches on the film surface may also be visible on the screen as "mottle".

------------------
John Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Eastman Kodak Company
Rochester, NY 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243


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Joshua Lott
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 246
From: Fairbanks, AK, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 03-31-2000 06:17 AM      Profile for Joshua Lott   Author's Homepage   Email Joshua Lott   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have been told that over time if you use Alcohol on cleaning metal surfaces they could begin to rust. I am not sure if they are getting Alcohol with it being watered down or not. I have been told that we should use wd-40 for cleaning the metal surfaces, and then use alcohol for rollers and platters. I have just started to use Film Guard. Will Film Guard and wd-40 have adverse reaction if a film-guarded print runs through a projector that has been cleaned with wd-40? I am kind of stuck with what the company will let me get. Suggestions?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-31-2000 06:56 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joshua:

WD-40 has a proprietary formula, but it is likely some sort of lubricant (e.g., mineral oil) dissolved in solvent. The solvent(s) in WD-40 provide the cleaning action, and a thin coating of oil is left behind. The oil provides some protection against rust.

Any similar solvent or degreaser could be used for cleaning the surfaces of a projector, as long as care is used to not get the solvent into bearings, where it could leach out the lubricant. But bare metal surfaces would not be protected against oxidation (rust or corrosion). If you find that rust is a persistent problem, be sure to keep the relative humidity less than about 60 percent.

Isopropyl alcohol is often used as a cleaning solvent. In pure form, it contains little water, so it shouldn't be causing rust. Many off-the-shelf "rubbing alcohol" formulas contain isopropyl alcohol in mixture with water, so this may be the source of the rust.

Pure isopropyl alcohol may be used to clean short areas of film (e.g, removing an oily fingerprint). But if there is water in the alcohol, it will be absorbed by the gelatin emulsion and soften it. Remember, isopropyl alcohol is very flammable. Never use other alcohols (e.g., methyl alcohol) on film.

WD-40 should NOT be used as a film cleaner or lubricant, as the oil it contains may leach out the oil-soluble color dyes in the film, or cause them to migrate. Any oil on the film may be visible as non-uniformity or "mottle", and its stickiness may hold dirt particles or cause the film to be sticky or wind unevenly. Too much lubricant may make the film roll loose and slippery.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Joshua Lott
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 246
From: Fairbanks, AK, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 03-31-2000 12:42 PM      Profile for Joshua Lott   Author's Homepage   Email Joshua Lott   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John:

I am not planning on using it as a lubricant or a film cleaner.(I have Film Guard for that ) I simply want to use it to clean the projector. Are you saying that I can't use it in the film path? (gate, trap, shoes, and sprockets) Or are you saying that if I use it in the film path then I should be sure to completely wipe the area free of oily residue?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-31-2000 01:08 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
WD-40 can be used to clean surfaces in the projector. Just be aware that you are leaving behind a thin film of oil. In most cases (i.e. protection of bare metal from rust or corrosion), this is an advantage over plain solvent or degreaser. But the oil may make surfaces more slippery (e.g., more slip of the film over the sound drum could increase wow and flutter). A slight residue of oil on film-contacting surfaces like the gate or rollers should cause no harm, but don't apply WD-40 or similar oil-based lubricants directly to the film.

I should add that a thin film of oil on optical components is NOT useful, so keep the WD-40 away from any optics, including the lens and sound reader optics.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-19-2001 02:23 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alchohol of any kind has been banned from the booth by my company because apparently people have used it on the wrong parts in the past and have caused damage. I use WD-40l, sparingly and only when necessary, to clean my film path. I take it I should spray it onto a Q-Tip or rag, and not directly onto the projector? What could happen if I spray it on the projector?

Please forgive me, but I do not know what Xecote is. My company doesn't order it. What is it?

Why does a print need to be lubricated? I don't get it. thx.

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 09-19-2001 02:39 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
XeKote (for all intents and purposes now obsolete thanks to FilmGuard) is a solvent-based cleaner/lubricant which has a paraffin (?) oil lubricant dissolved in a trichloroethane (since replaced with a more environmentally friendly) solvent. You would coat the gate rails and such with the stuff and it would supposedlty make things run smoother.

Why lubricate a print?

Have you had prints that shed so much that after one show you are scooping out shovels full of white dust? Theres the reason.

Aaron


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 09-19-2001 02:56 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
SMPTE Recommended Practice RP151 specifies that 35mm release prints should be properly lubricated. In the past, this was usually done by the film laboratory by coating the edges ("edge waxing") of the film with a solvent containing a hard wax like paraffin or carnauba. Kodak's processing specifications recommend proper print lubrication:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/h242/h2402_04.shtml#164364
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/processing/h249/h2409_03.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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