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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Has anyone actually HEARD an HPS-4000 theater? (Page 3)

 
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Author Topic: Has anyone actually HEARD an HPS-4000 theater?
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-02-2000 01:02 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Why don't studios recommend that their films be played in HPS-4000 if the theatre has it? Also, what would you do if there was a sudden upsurge in the popularity of HPS-4000? Say there were 200 screens that requested HPS-4000 in a single month? When you take nearly 30 hours to EQ each auditorium, that's a lot of work! Would you do it?

Also, if a theatre buys and HPS-4000 system today (or maybe tomorrow or even next week), do they get a free upgrade when you come out with HPS-4000.1 or HPS-5000?

I figured out how to do the ®, but how do you do the "TM"? œ*´®Ý¥¨¨ˆø*åß*ƒ©·*°¬…æ“‘«*=ç**˜˜µ**÷¡™£¢*§¶•ªº–*

OK nevermind I figured it out. Alt/option + 2 and © is alt/option + G. Cool!

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-02-2000 03:03 AM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Mr. Redifer:

Wow, 30 hours per theatre. Try 20 minutes. That's about the time it takes to tune a theatre. It seems to take more time to set up the equipment than to do the work. I think I probably need about a day to do five or six theatres with "A" chains and the various digital formats. Some theatres with balconies take a day or two, due to the eight to 12 surround channels. Getting that balanced can take awhile and often seems to need to be done twice. I had to tune the Waikiki #1 theatre while the seat installers were working. When I needed a moment of silence, I'd ask for it. On maintenance trips, we do a 12 plex in 5 hours. I have two men doing "A" chains while I check all the "B" chains. We haven't started a show late yet.

Today, with digital processors, a technician can load a file with settings I provide, do the "A" chains and set levels. I don't even have to be there until after everything is done and the theatre is open. That way I am working in a completed complex and don't have to wait while the fire alarm is tested 100 times.

JFA

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-02-2000 08:01 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>"The drivers for all three horns were melted open. 34,000 ohm resistance. Lost the house for a week while we waited for replacements. Oh well sh** happens"<<

What brand of drivers were they? Just for reference, we stock theatre diaphragms for EV, JBL and Altec.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-02-2000 10:16 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John since we have you available to pick your brain two questions come to mind
With EX do you classifie those rear corner speakers as part of the side wall or rear wall array. Would not the logic then tend to modulate the total low end response as it tracks the directional steering from side to rear or vice versa

Also your nearfield direct eq technique you mention has been documented in several journals. Since I have the AES saved back into the seventies I would be interested in reading up on these articles so I would appreciate which articles and issues
thank you for your patience

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-02-2000 01:24 PM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Gordon:

In the four theatres where we installed the SA-10 as well as the testing I did with it at Framingham prior to last May, I used the rear corner speakers in the rear group.

Back in 1972, I think, Daniel Queen published an excellent paper in the AES JOURNAL about the use of pink noise and real-time analyzers. He found that the measurements did not corollate with human hearing. I wish I could find that paper but I have not been able to. Once at an SMPTE meeting I was complaining that we needed to do something better. I was unsuccessful. Queen was there and didn't say a word. After the meeting, I asked him why he didn't and he said he was tired of fighting a loosing battle.

I also remember reading another AES paper in the late 1980s or early 1990s that came to the same conclusion. I thought I kept it but have not been able to find it despite several attempts.

I did a presentation for the ITEA here at Framingham in 1995 that compared the tuning that resulted form a four microphone setup, a single microphone and my tuning. I later repeated the demonstration for the local sections of SMPTE, AES, BAS and ASA. There was no dispute from any of the 400 or so people who have heard this that the far-field methods are inferior to terrible. Sorry I can't be of more help.

I can recommend a book by Jens Blauert called SPATIAL HEARING. It is available from the MIT Press in Cambridge, MA. The ISBN number is 0-262-02190-0. I think I paid $50.00 for the book 15 years ago. The book was translated by John S. Allen. No relation.

John F. Allen

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 02-02-2000 10:47 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maintaining INTEGRITY throughout the system; that's the key! Remember, Ray Dolby spoke "heresy" too, in the beginning.

John Allen's good.


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Charles Lubner
Film Handler

Posts: 78
From: Milwaukee, WI USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 02-03-2000 12:57 AM      Profile for Charles Lubner   Author's Homepage   Email Charles Lubner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mr. Allen:

Two years ago I was on vacation in Waikiki and went to the Waikiki #3 cinema. Does that theatre have HPS-4000 sound? Does the IMAX behind the Waikiki 1 and 2 have HPS-4000 sound? If not, do you plan to introduce a HPS system to the IMAX industry?

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-03-2000 01:08 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So then, is HPS-4000® theoretically the best possible movie theatre sound? There is absolutely no way that it could sound better given current technology, sound formats, and soundtrack mixing practices? Do HPS-4000™ auditoriums "bleed through" to adjascent auditoiums?

If keeping the price "competitive" was not an issue, what would you do? What would be the ultimate system that you would love to design and build? Also, how many channels do you think theatres could really benefit from? Is 8 enough?

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-03-2000 07:10 AM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Mr. Lubner:

The Waikiki #3 is indeed HPS-4000® and is one of my favorite theatres in the world. We have not done any IMAX theatres. They have their own sound company. We have done several theatres around the world for Showscan.

JFA

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-03-2000 07:22 AM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Mr. Redifer:

We are always looking for ways to improve drivers. I think the horn designs are correct as they are designed according to the laws of physics and have stood the test of time.

As to the number of channels, I am quite satisfied with eight channels. I wish that all films were made that way. I have done mixes with four surround channels. There is a small advantage to having the surrounds split up into stereo side and rear groups, but I emphasize small.

I suspect that the easiest way to improve the system is to improve the amplifiers. We recently did just that and the results were incredible. BGW makes special amplifiers for us and has done so for many years. Their new Millennium 3-HPS® is the best amplifier of any kind I have ever heard. I now have one in my living room.

Our sound systems bleed through to other theatres but less than other systems. This is because horn speakers do not vibrate very much, so they don't shake the structure of the building as much. Airborne transmission must be dealt with by good wall construction.

JFA

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-03-2000 10:38 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some of the older Klipsh cabeniets used a variety of driver sources I distinctly remember seeing some B&C and RCF and Emenience in them over the years. But I also remeber seeing a driver in one that had a phenolic diaphram that looked a lot like a police sieren element. Are all drivers used now interchangeable between vinatges as the cabinent loading would probably effect them.
I was curious since you mentioned you had to find a replacement source during the trouble years at Klipsh

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-03-2000 12:58 PM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Gordon:

Today's drivers are generally interchangeable with older drivers. The manufacturers of the drivers have changed once in a great while, but the drivers are basically the same with the exception that they have somewhat greater power capacity. All the speakers ever used in HPS-4000® installations used drivers that meet today's needs. None has needed replacement or updating and, as I have said, except for manufacturing defects (maybe five in twenty years), none has failed. The woofers and tweeters are still from the same sources. There have been two sources of the midrange drivers.

When I changed cabinet builders, the drivers remained the same.

John F. Allen

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-06-2000 05:01 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was just noticing your note about Sir David Lean's comment on sound he had not heard before
A theatre system is supposed to reproduce what was heard on the mixing stage and a system that reproduces in a different fashion ( althow possible better) becomes a double edged sword of possibly making a film with an acceptable soundtrack sound worse because the theatre reproduces what was not evident during sounding

Are there any Dubbing/mixing facitlies with HPS4000 and has any mixing facilities accredited it

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Jason Burroughs
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Allen, TX
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-06-2000 08:00 PM      Profile for Jason Burroughs   Email Jason Burroughs   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If I remember right the GCC Northpark auditorium #2 had HPS-4000 at one point. Unfortunatly GCC Northpark is and has been closed.

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-06-2000 08:03 PM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Gordon:

The mixing stages are pretty well standardized with two-way systems, for better or worse. The good ones have had years of tweaking from mixers who know what their recorded materials really sound like since they often have recorded the things themselves. Though not the best sounding systems I have heard, the rerecording stages I have worked on do sound fairly decent.

The producers have always appreciated that our systems make their films sound better than they heard at the studio. They pour hours and hours into making the best sounding film they can with the relatively small two-way speakers they have available. When their film is played on a superior sound system, they are overjoyed that their hard work produced something that much better than they thought.

We had a world premiere of a film last year at a theatre in New York. The director was there and was so stunned by the sound quality, he talked about it to the reporters who were covering the opening. He later asked the technician how it was possible that this theatre could sound so much better than any other theatre he had ever heard. He even wondered if he had been deceived all these years by other sound technicians. I would like to have been there myself.

John F. Allen

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