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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Has anyone actually HEARD an HPS-4000 theater? (Page 5)

 
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Author Topic: Has anyone actually HEARD an HPS-4000 theater?
John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-09-2000 12:13 AM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Mr. Guttag:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, as we all know. The reason I suggested that THE SORCERER'S APPRENTICE be used in the listening test, was to save Kintek the embarrassment they would surely have suffered had they test been done with the Beethoven 6th symphony, where the steering was just out of control. There was still plenty of time left. Kintek had acknowledged the problem and had asked for more time. Remember, the choice of which processor to use was not mine. I could have kept my mouth shut, but I think that would have been unfair since I knew that the unit was totally unacceptable at that point in time. I also believed that should they fail to cure the problems they were having, they would simply withdraw the unit from the presentation.

This seemed fair to me because the KT-700 was not designed for straight audio processing and they needed time to complete the modifications. When it came time to open the film, the KT-700 was behaving much better. It was decided to use it. But, I was still unsatisfied and would not have used it had it been my decision. I also hated what the surround steering was doing and I made myself clear.

So, yes I did privately regret making the suggestion that saved the KT-700 from certain and early rejection. In hindsight, had I kept quiet I would ultimately have had my preference. If I had it to do again in the same circumstances, I would probably do the same thing and try to be as helpful as possible to the team. It's just the way I work.

John F. Allen

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-09-2000 12:22 AM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Gordon:

So far the customers that install HPS-4000® systems have not elected to use the processors you mentioned. If they had, I would have investigated for them. So, I have not heard those units.

I will say that my complaint with most of the analog processors I have heard, other than Dolby's, is the poor noise reduction decoding. Some of them didn't have adequate equalization.

JFA

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-09-2000 09:23 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear John, What do you consider adequate eq in a processor? And since your system requires such little eq anyway what are the requirements needed in the processor? I agree with you on the noise reduction issue on older processors however this is now most likely a moot issue. In fact Dolbys version of SR included with the CP-500 is not exactly the cats meow either. The real SR card is quite a bit more $$ as I'm sure you know.
Mark

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-09-2000 09:51 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mr. Allen --

This has been a very interesting thread indeed. I'm looking forward to talking with you on the phone later this week.

One question, though: you quote rough prices for loudspeakers and amplifiers, but do not mention acoustical treatment of the auditorium itself. Obviously the need for this will depend on the auditorium itself, but how much acoustical treatment is usually necessary to make a "standard" theatre ready for the HPS-4000 (R) installation?

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-09-2000 10:33 AM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Mark and Mr. Norwood:

First the EQ question: Despite the fact that we don't use much in the way of equalization, what is done requires 1/3 octave adjustments for the screen speakers. No equalization is needed for the surrounds. A 100 HZ low-pass filter is sufficient for the subwoofers.

The acoustic treatment required for the HPS-4000® theatres is an absorptive ceiling and rear wall. In theatres greater than about 37 feet wide, the treatment on the side walls needs to be nothing more than Econopleat with nothing behind it, or its acoustic equivalent. This is to stop high frequency flutter. The relatively hard side walls are good for bass and do not detract from dialog intelligibility due to the vastly superior control we have of the coverage angles from the screen speakers. No absorption is required behind the screen, as there are no meaningful behind-the-screen reflections to absorb. This level of treatment costs about 1/3 rd less per auditorium than what is typically recommended.

We have done historic theatres, that are relatively reverberant by today's standards, with complete success. In fact, some of these installations are among my favorites. Such rooms each have a quality all their own and are very enjoyable for listening to movies. The Tivoli and Arcada theatres outside Chicago come to mind as does the Waikiki #3 in Honolulu. The Carib theatre in Kingston, Jamaica, in its single screen days before a fire, was incredible with big films. The bigger, the better.

John F. Allen

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 02-09-2000 04:20 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One reason this topic has proven to be popular may be because many people (including myself) are a little disappointed with THX. I know of two auditouriums that could never have met THX spec's, yet were approved anyway.

Now, I not compairing the two techinally. A properly installed and tuned THX system also sounds great. What I mean is: It seems like if a theater doesn't meet the spec's for an HPS system, you don't get to say HPS approved. If a theater doesn't meet THX spec's, it still might get approved.

Also, there are probably several owners that would want an HPS system just for it's reliabilty; the sound quality would just be a bonus (what was that? one driver blown in 12 years?!.)

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-09-2000 05:16 PM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Mr. Walsh:

Thank you for your comments. Actually, it's zero blown drivers in twenty years. It's something we're pretty proud of.

JFA


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-09-2000 06:56 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey John,
Yes, I remember how reverbrant the Tivoli is. I also remember the multi thousand dollar quote that Classic got back for the acoustical treatment that needed to be done to correct a number of new problems that crept in after HPS installation. Mainly LF problems in the back corners(they are curved), reflections off the upper rear wall and dome reflections. Even if they did half of what was reccomended, and I think they did,thats still alot spent on acoustical correction(and consultation).Then,there is still the dome problem thats difficult, if not impossible to solve(in any theater for that matter) without obliterating the dome itself. Yes, the system sounded very good indeed but oh those rear corner seats and dome reflections!

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-09-2000 07:54 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear John
I thought that you posted earlyer that no accoustical work was need in these domed movie palaces yet here Mark says that a lot was required at the Tivoli
Interesting
Also almost all of Dolbys competition have allways offered 1/3 octave equalizers except for that mater Kintek

Gordon A. McLeod

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-09-2000 09:00 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The work didn't stop at the Tivoli. The Lake Theater also needed major acoustical treatment. Not really due to any particuluar speaker system going in, but due to the shape that the large room ended up being......a large "T".
I'm only trying to point out that its been my experience that installing HPS(or any other system for that matter) in a particuluar theater won't cure, mask, hide, or lessen the existing acoustical deficiencys, and in some cases doing so makes things worse. There are many systems that will function satisfactorily in old theaters with poor acoustics. The 4675's, BGW M2200, and 28 JBL surrounds come to mind at the Boise Egyptian.
The system sounds very good there , but with good acoustical treatment could sound fantastic.
Mark

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-09-2000 09:10 PM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Mark and Gordon:

The Tivoli is a theatre about 130 feet long and 86 feet wide. Sometime after the initial installation of the HPS-4000® system in 1982, the old acoustical treatment was removed from the ceiling. This was done because of the condition of the material. The dome is not and has not been a problem. The exposed hard ceiling was detrimental and was the source of acoustic problems until new panels were installed.

Also in 1982, acoustic recommendations were provided by Bolt Beranek and Newman. Among other things, a large heavy curtain was installed across the rear wall, including the rounded corners. This curtain remained until it was replaced with a more decorative treatment during the most recent redecoration and restoration of the theatre which was completed a few years ago. The theatre has in fact undergone a slow but rather complete restoration since I began working there. A freak wind storm once blew away the roof membrane and allowed a massive amount of water into the theatre. This damage has now been repaired. I wish I had a picture of the theatre for you. It looks absolutely beautiful.

I have worked in two large theatres with domes. They can be of benefit for directing sound from live orchestras into the most distant seats. However, these domes did nothing positive or negative for the film sound, as its source was behind the on-stage screen and not in the pit. The pits at these two theatres have the advantage of being out in the auditorium and therefore somewhat underneath the domes.

The Tivoli still hosts live events with live orchestras. Therefore we have left the room more live than most movie theatres. Still, it's a great sounding theatre and the favorite of many. Theatre owners have commented that just the sound coming out of the theatre and into the lobby, is better than the sound in their own theatres.

John F. Allen

PS: I should add that Mark Gulbrandsen and I have had many terrific adventures at the Tivoli and Lake theatres. Mark was behind the 70 MM installation at the Tivoli and also provided excellent observations concerning the acoustics of the Lake Theatre when I could not spend the time there that he could. The Lake became a better theatre, thanks to Mark.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-09-2000 09:31 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi John,
While I don't know whats transpired at the Tivoli in the last few years I do know that latest set of reccomendations carried out were made by Kirkegarrd and Associates when they ran the tests on the room in the early 80's. The 4" thick panels that Classic installed(when I worked for them) encompassed the lower half of the back wall and the corners. There were other reccomendations made in the report at the time which included both dome, and ceiling treatment above the procenium. Since the Lord struck there and dowsed the place I don't know if the Kirkegarrd reccomendations have been put back into commission or not. But it took care of alot of the problems that were created....L.F. wise anyway.
Mark

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-09-2000 09:40 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,
Thanks for the kind words. In reality the lake was better because Willis had the drive to spend the cash to have the analysis done and then the ensuing treatments which were in the end, very expensive(geez....sounds like a medicine ad). He is really the one to thank here. Not many theater owners really care about that stuff. Fortunately there are quite a few independent theater owners out here in the mountain states that also care and will spend what it takes to do it right. I am fortunate to have several of them as my steady customers.
Mark

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-12-2000 03:02 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear John,
Just a couple of questions
I remember ready many years ago an article by you regarding an installation in Europe for the I believe it was the Kinopolis group of an HPS system in one of there largest theatres. Is it still functioning for I don't see it on the list of preffered theatres
I would still like to see published here a coplete list of HPS installations and that compare to howmany are still approved for some how the numbers seemed to show only a small amount that stay listed from the many thousands that we are lead to believe have been done
Another question the NorthPark what was the problem there for I heard a rumour that GCC had the HPS system retunned due to the large number of customer complaints.
I heard the system you installed at the Carib and it was interesting but definitly did not convince me that the system was outstanding and was very suprised when I visited the booth the actuall amount of work the amps seemed to be doing considering the quoted high efficiency of the speaker that has been claimed.
I also felt that the surround array was tending to be rear wall heavy which again as I have mentioned earlier re Mr Leans comments a theatre system should emulate the mixing/dubbing stage no more no less so the audience here exactly what was heard by the sound desginers. Not artifacts that would not be possibly noticed or heard during the mix
Gordon A. McLeod

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Scott Nelson
Film Handler

Posts: 11

Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 02-12-2000 04:47 PM      Profile for Scott Nelson   Email Scott Nelson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon is this the GCC NorthPark in Dallas Texas? I knew they had a THX house which was by far the best sound I have ever heard, but there was no mention of an HPS4000 house. That theatre was only 2 screens so if this is indeed the theatre I am assuming you are talking about the smaller house. If so then I must stand behind John F. Allen as I saw Titanic 6 times at the NorthPark in 70mm and the last week it ran in their smaller house and the sound was incredible. I would pick the NorthPark THX house over that HPS4000 house because of the distortion that was in it, but it still beat every other system I've ever heard that was not under the NorthPark's roof. So if this was HPS4000 sound I was hearing, why was it not advertised?


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